Astralporing.1957 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > Either Malediktus is losing buyers - according to this forum (^^) or, on a more serious side he want's to push raids more into the niche in which they already are. The second. He always was for making things harder/more exclusive, after he has already achieved them. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Not for long. If they don't split Meteor Shower when they fix its wvw damage numbers, we're trash. To paraphrase earlier Epi complains - if it's one skill that changes ele from the trash tier to among top dps, that one skill is definitely OP and should be nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? No. Context is different. To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > Either Malediktus is losing buyers - according to this forum (^^) or, on a more serious side he want's to push raids more into the niche in which they already are. I have not sold a single raid encounter in my life time lol If anything nerfing everything makes raid selling harder. Currently players are so powerful that anything can be low manned - even dhuum cm. It is time to nerf all classes to the point that 10 people are required - or buff the raid encounters by a large margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? > > No. Context is different. > > To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. If you look at it from a different point of view, what wasn't fine on the necromancer was either the ability to have an increasing number of impacts applying bleed stack (Lich form- mark of horror) or an infinite loop of condi bouncing (epidemic). In the case of the elementalist what have never been fine is the aoe skills delivering a set amount of impacts that initially were designed to be spread on different targets instead of loading everything on a single target. The choice of anet to load a maximum of the damage onto the first strike to balance these kind of skills is what hurt the most WvW. To fix the skills they should have made them into classic pulsing aoe, but yeah, the damage loss would have been tremendously higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? > > No. Context is different. > > To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. Nah, ele was never "fine". It was severely overpowered. From its tempest days (when raids came out), ele has always been waaaaaay ahead in dps to other classes (fresh air builds/staff builds) . It is fine now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > Either Malediktus is losing buyers - according to this forum (^^) or, on a more serious side he want's to push raids more into the niche in which they already are. > I have not sold a single raid encounter in my life time lol > > If anything nerfing everything makes raid selling harder. Currently players are so powerful that anything can be low manned - even dhuum cm. It is time to nerf all classes to the point that 10 people are required - or buff the raid encounters by a large margin. Wasn't meant too serious but I agree to the point having raid bosses requiring 10 people to play an important part on the boss fight. At least they should be required over the main time frame. For example I have nothing against the 7 marks on Dhuum during the last 10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? > > > > No. Context is different. > > > > To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. > > > Nah, ele was never "fine". It was severely overpowered. From its tempest days (when raids came out), ele has always been waaaaaay ahead in dps to other classes (fresh air builds/staff builds) . It is fine now It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? > > > > > > No. Context is different. > > > > > > To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. > > > > > > Nah, ele was never "fine". It was severely overpowered. From its tempest days (when raids came out), ele has always been waaaaaay ahead in dps to other classes (fresh air builds/staff builds) . It is fine now > > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. Whats the current benchmark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walhalla.5473 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 So... Epi nerf was expected and deserved. Too much abuse potential. But dhuumfire nerf? Sounds like a PvP inspired nerf that also went over to PvE.... meh. The problem for condi necros now is that there was nothing buffed to compensate for that and now benchmarks show something like 28k which isn't acceptable. Now we have DE with a very easy rotation going up to 38k.... Should be cut to 34k and then it would be ok. Staff Ele large on 37k is completely fine. 33k on small is not. Lava font changes should be reversed and if the large hitbox damage goes up again too much then the meteor sprinkle style skills should be adjusted to make sure that ele on large doesn't go apeshit again with dps. Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure what Anet wants to do with the classes. There is no clear dps range that Anet aims for. ( Like a range between 33k and 37k dps ) I am totally ok with Ele being top dps while Necro coming in at last place as long as the difference between both classes is reasonable, which right now, is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. It will be fine-ish once it's down to 29k like necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Walhalla.5473" said: > So... Epi nerf was expected and deserved. Too much abuse potential. But dhuumfire nerf? Sounds like a PvP inspired nerf that also went over to PvE.... meh. The problem for condi necros now is that there was nothing buffed to compensate for that and now benchmarks show something like 28k which isn't acceptable. > > Now we have DE with a very easy rotation going up to 38k.... Should be cut to 34k and then it would be ok. > > Staff Ele large on 37k is completely fine. 33k on small is not. Lava font changes should be reversed and if the large hitbox damage goes up again too much then the meteor sprinkle style skills should be adjusted to make sure that ele on large doesn't go apeshit again with dps. > > Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure what Anet wants to do with the classes. There is no clear dps range that Anet aims for. ( Like a range between 33k and 37k dps ) > > I am totally ok with Ele being top dps while Necro coming in at last place as long as the difference between both classes is reasonable, which right now, is not. Why is 33k on small not fine? Is it because it's to much dps on a single target for an aoe dps build? I think scepter builds should be the elementalists top dps build on small target, but even so, 33k wouldn't be a bad dps target for such a build. After all 33k dps builds are already in the above average dps builds. The issue of the necromancer is that anet expect him to rely on corrupting boons on it's foe and drawing condition from it's allies to send them to their foes to increase it's dps. This is not realistic in PvE, they even give more boon corruption to PvE skills, it's to the point that I wonder if they deliberately troll necromancer players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 dam this thread is still going is epi still broken and need nerfs huehuehue or has it completely changed from the topic and talking about buffs to necro or nerfs to other classes now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. > It will be fine-ish once it's down to 29k like necro. > You mean "irrelevant". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > You know whats funny? Ele users kept complaining that necro was broken because of one skill (epidemic). Yet, the same people claim that ele is useless when Anet nerfs meteor shower. Isnt that ironic? > > > > > > > > No. Context is different. > > > > > > > > To elaborate a bit - necro was never fine. It was either underpowered or broken. Ele *was* fine, then it get nerfed to oblivion. It remains somewhat viable, but if it loses another significant chunk of its damage then it will be complete trash. > > > > > > > > > Nah, ele was never "fine". It was severely overpowered. From its tempest days (when raids came out), ele has always been waaaaaay ahead in dps to other classes (fresh air builds/staff builds) . It is fine now > > > > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. > > Whats the current benchmark? 38/33k huge/small. But take it with a grain of salt. Until we see the actual patch or get a confirmation by a dev, we don't know if MS fix will be applied to pvp modes only or will be uniform. The latter will push both benchmarks lower and likely result in weaver remaining usable only few bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. > > It will be fine-ish once it's down to 29k like necro. > > > > You mean "irrelevant". Odd, that's not what people were saying about necro's. Apparently they're fine and dandy at 29K but the moment it's an Ele it's irrelevant ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > dam this thread is still going is epi still broken and need nerfs huehuehue or has it completely changed from the topic and talking about buffs to necro or nerfs to other classes now Topic is still the same. Elementalist players being upset for one reason or another that they are not the undisputed top dps class in most/all scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > dam this thread is still going is epi still broken and need nerfs huehuehue or has it completely changed from the topic and talking about buffs to necro or nerfs to other classes now > > Topic is still the same. Elementalist players being upset for one reason or another that they are not the undisputed top dps class in most/all scenarios. haha I do main ele myself, but I've recently made a Deadeye :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xantaria.8726 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Xantaria.8726" said: > > Great idea, nerf even more others like just cause ones own class isnt in the line with the rest.... oh and if i recall correctly people are crying cause raids are to hard? Guess what, nerf everything and this will get even worse. > > > > Instead of constantly demanding nerfing working builds, you should rather support the idea of reworking your class, giving it options to drop sustainabilities for more damageoutput, cause thats the only thing preventing necrobuilds from actual getting buffs. And not only necromancer, other builds as well. Many cry cause of the chrono for examble, yet we could have good alternatives like fb and renegade if they would finally start buffing those or at least give us the statcombi healpower, condidmg, condiduration boonduration. But noooo, better nerf again. > > This is far from the truth, sorry. People have been constantly crying about epi nerf instead of asking for a buff of their class (mainly ele users). Necro players have been saying epi SHOULD get nerfed, with buffing of other dps skills. Necro is non existent in this meta, ele is still viable. Reading this just made me laugh. How do you exactly know who is which kind of player? And did you really read every single post to this topic of every member in here? Get real. All sides have made valid points (and also invalid points) to why sth was op and sth not. The “truth“ is that there are idiots on both sides. This whole “evil eletistics are all against the poor poor necros“ is just a way for many to let out there frustration by shifting blame on others. It makes me wonder which players are actual toxic here. But hey, some just read what they want to :P The fact is nobody besides maybe deadeye is looking better after the patch (and deadeye dps is just stupid right now). Oh and before you blame me being an ele main, dh and chrono main here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > It was overpowered when it did 48k on golem. Since then it has been fine-ish. > > > It will be fine-ish once it's down to 29k like necro. > > > > > > > You mean "irrelevant". > > Odd, that's not what people were saying about necro's. > > Apparently they're fine and dandy at 29K but the moment it's an Ele it's irrelevant ? 29k ele would be trash. Complex rotation, very quick to lose damage potential. We'd be having hard times to outdps banner warriors, and when a dps spec compares in damage output with a support one, it is trash. We have exactly zero group support, too. Scourges can at least pretend to be useful by spamming barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Well, the ele rotation is less complex now, so everything is fine, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 All the major issues still exist - conjures, long channels, ground-targeted aoes. Only the latter is alleviated somewhat, but that's offset by its nerfed damage output. So it's not fine, it's passable at best. But at 29k, it would be trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > But at 29k, it would be trash. That's not however weaver-specific. I mean, there are always a lot of reasons brought up why necro shouldn't have its dps buffed, and why ele shouldn't have its dps nerfed. And the end of the day, however, necro keeps its position at the bottom of the pack, and ele is, as always, the king of the big hitbox (and has a decent dps on small hibox as well). And the difference between them is still quite big. Way too big than it should be. So, yeah, at the current meta, ele at 29k would be trash. But at 33k/38k it _isn't_. Not even close. And i'm 99% confident that even the incoming MS tweak won't make the build worse than 31-32k/35-36k. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Scourges can at least pretend to be useful by spamming barriers. It's not worth the low dps. It's about as useful as heal tempest being the best healer spec in the game. And it still doesn't cover the case of reaper (that was _meant_ to be a dps-focused spec) having even worse dps as both condi and power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > But at 29k, it would be trash. > That's not however weaver-specific. But it is worse for weavers because of how ridiculously unreliable their dps is. See my post in [this](en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48330/should-the-difficulty-level-of-skill-rotation-reflect-in-the-amount-of-dps-or-being-melee-ranged "this") thread. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > So, yeah, at the current meta, ele at 29k would be trash. But at 33k/38k it _isn't_. Not even close. And i'm 99% confident that even the incoming MS tweak won't make the build worse than 31-32k/35-36k. I mean, it is already better to run thief. Want cleave? Just switch to DD and staff. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Scourges can at least pretend to be useful by spamming barriers. > It's not worth the low dps. It's about as useful as heal tempest being the best healer spec in the game. And it still doesn't cover the case of reaper (that was _meant_ to be a dps-focused spec) having even worse dps as both condi and power. > > Hence the "pretend". The difference with tempest being, tempest will not deal any meaningful damage when healing while a scourge can pump out some barriers and still be a dps. A bad dps, sure, but a dps. I agree, it's not worth it. I also agree on reaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > But at 29k, it would be trash. > > That's not however weaver-specific. > > But it is worse for weavers because of how ridiculously unreliable their dps is. > See my post in [this](en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48330/should-the-difficulty-level-of-skill-rotation-reflect-in-the-amount-of-dps-or-being-melee-ranged "this") thread. Curiously how that never seemed to apply to engis, who had even more complex rotation and unreliable dps. Also, by your own post that you linked, DE daggers/DD staff should at least get some points for being strictly melee builds (and equally squishy as eles, btw). You might have a stronger point if ele was single target melee spec. In that case rotation complexity would be the only meaningful difference, and in such a case ele indeed should end up on top. That's however not so. > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > So, yeah, at the current meta, ele at 29k would be trash. But at 33k/38k it _isn't_. Not even close. And i'm 99% confident that even the incoming MS tweak won't make the build worse than 31-32k/35-36k. > > I mean, it is already better to run thief. Want cleave? Just switch to DD and staff. Staff DD isn't all that much higher than weaver, and is also full melee. No orb clearing on gorse on thieves, for example (lack of which might not be important for the top few percent raiders, but is going to kill an average group) > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Scourges can at least pretend to be useful by spamming barriers. > > It's not worth the low dps. It's about as useful as heal tempest being the best healer spec in the game. And it still doesn't cover the case of reaper (that was _meant_ to be a dps-focused spec) having even worse dps as both condi and power. > > > > > > Hence the "pretend". The difference with tempest being, tempest will not deal any meaningful damage when healing while a scourge can pump out some barriers and still be a dps. A bad dps, sure, but a dps. I agree, it's not worth it. I also agree on reaper. That part i can agree. The point i meant however is, that both ele healing and scourge banners aren't important enough to take them for it. Scourges were being taken for epi dps, with barriers being no more than a nice bonus. And while i saw some tempest healers in some fights (on cairn and Matthias mostly, with some weaker groups), i have _never_ seen a scourge being taken for barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > very quick to lose damage potential. Not as quick as necro's all it takes is being slightly relevant and the the forumites come out with crowbars and swing for the kneecaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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