How can we get wvw back to the skill based game mode it used to be?

[Hollywood.3490]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> What we need is making WvW more pvp-like. Spread players. make them be in many places. Break large zergs into smaller groups. Encourage people to fight in a smaller scale. Have more PvP.

> And this may be counter intuitive, but to have more PvP in WvW, we need more PvE.

> A fourth faction of NPCs, like Aetherblades, that will attack any point and take over it if no players attack it for too long, and no players were defending it. They would teleport in through an ether portal, pop siege, break the walls and take over it, turning the location to the 'gray' faction.

>

 

The reason roaming and small scale died is because it stopped to be fun. People do not wanna loose, so they only play the most broken and cheesiest specs that involve nothing more than faceroll. And this started when PU, Perplexity Runes and general tampering with conditions happened. Then it all got worse, because they had to re-tweak everything else, so other classes could catch up to this pile of ...

 

Before that, you had tonnes of players wandering about, killing each other, pugs, small scale teams, you name it.

 

> Right now, there's hardly any reason to stick defending a supply line and objectives attached to it. At most you'd have a half-idle scout to slow down attackers with tricks while help arrives. There's nothing like a meta-event connecting all objectives in a supply line and giving bonus rewards for maintinging it. Sometimes enemies hardly come by and when they do they will usually be a large zerg that thrashes everything like a swam of locusts.

> Most of the time, chances are that whenever you reach an objective, you'll find only a large group, a straggler, or nobody at all.

>

 

Come to T1 and you will see ppl building siege to hold camps, not to mention superspeeding packed dolyaks on holo #2.

 

> And this is how 'more PvE' actually creates more PvP. Can't leave any place alone, players are more likely to meet other players, we get more players fighting players.

>

 

No. We would get more players fighting other players, if it wasn't either an instagib fest, condi shower or groups running 2 healbots with Merciful Intervention, because then it's impossible to even stomp them. Look how many players quit because of what happened to the mechanics. 3 of my guilds died because of that reason and ppl are saying the same thing to me, that they're never coming back to the game, because it's not fun anymore and they're all were solo/small scale roamers.

 

 

[Adamsdjr.1350]

I think I speak for many of us when I say some of my best GW2 experiences have been defending an objective that is vital to the map. I'm not sure why this is so undervalued from a design standpoint. This game needs more important objectives. With more meaningful objectives you can spread groups out along many points of the map, making smaller, strategic groups much more common. Zerging in a hoard of a 100 people certainly is fun at times, but wvw needs to be designed in such a way where grouping up in massive numbers is to defend/attack a massive objective.

 

There also needs to be more incentive for participating/climbing. I'm on FA and we purposely are coordinating this week to remain at tier 2 because we know full well that we will get obliterated by the tier 1 servers. What's our incentive to climb? Bragging rights? for what? We can brag we got into tier 1 and got pooped on?

 

A dynamic, updating battleground certainly has its merit, but there are some underline issues, mainly with lack of important objectives, that plague this system.

 

Boons are too abundant, boon ripping is too easy, some classes are clearly out of line, etc

[Caliburn.1845]

Played extensively in WvW since headstart, spent at least a 1000 hours each doing roaming, zerging, map blobbing. Played every class, multiple specs on most classes. WvW is neither more or less skillful now than it was at the release of the game.

 

There is more damage, and your average time to kill across all forms of WvW is lower, so often you have less time to react. But if anything that means WvW is more skill based today than it was in years prior. Which I don't think is the case either.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> What we need is making WvW more pvp-like. Spread players. make them be in many places. Break large zergs into smaller groups. Encourage people to fight in a smaller scale. Have more PvP.

> And this may be counter intuitive, but to have more PvP in WvW, we need more PvE.

> A fourth faction of NPCs, like Aetherblades, that will attack any point and take over it if no players attack it for too long, and no players were defending it. They would teleport in through an ether portal, pop siege, break the walls and take over it, turning the location to the 'gray' faction.

>

> Right now, there's hardly any reason to stick defending a supply line and objectives attached to it. At most you'd have a half-idle scout to slow down attackers with tricks while help arrives. There's nothing like a meta-event connecting all objectives in a supply line and giving bonus rewards for maintinging it. Sometimes enemies hardly come by and when they do they will usually be a large zerg that thrashes everything like a swam of locusts.

> Most of the time, chances are that whenever you reach an objective, you'll find only a large group, a straggler, or nobody at all.

>

> A 4th NPC faction would be a reason to have a group of a certain size sticking around every spot, and when you are roaming in a group of any size you'll be more likely to find people in an objective, because they will have to be there to defend against the 4th faction. They would also make maintaining supply lines and scouting less boring, as instead waiting for enemies doing nothing, you'll wait for enemies doing events and progressing a supply line meta that gives bonus rewards.

>

> And this is how 'more PvE' actually creates more PvP. Can't leave any place alone, players are more likely to meet other players, we get more players fighting players.

>

>

 

I find this idea interesting. I was thinking something similar back when I was testing out Aion (2 sides + npc side).

 

Would work even better if it actually focused on the stronger/leading server at the time (Since you know, servers themselves never do that ;) ).

 

Though, should probably not happen on EBG, since it's usually the most active map, and so people that really hate this has one safe place from it.

 

But yes, Activity for defenders, scouts, home bl players. Ways to keep up participation, more active than sitting for hours waiting for enemies or escorting yaks. In general good stuff for anyone not interested in zerging. And this would make for a lot more players out doing these jobs, so we can find and fight them.

 

Heck, could even change out some NPC's to counter some of the most annoying builds (as a slight balancing factor) if ANet wanted to go that far. Imagine how much "fun" a scourge would be if half the npc's just blatantly ignore them.

 

On the other hand, it would require some very careful hands to make this work, and is likely a much bigger project than what ANet has the resources to pull off.

[Zikory.6871]

Remove Rewards. Add achievements that drive WvW in a single direction. Rework WvW to force players to either fight or fight objectives but not both. Force people to come into WvW with solidarity. It would only fracture a already fractured player base but the people left would be the ones that want to WvW. /s kinda

 

Back when the game released there was only a handful of good guilds that set the meta. People created these robust communities, with "server pride", extensive guides on every little aspect of the game mode, people were constantly trying to break the mold that these elite few guilds started. It wasn't that the melee train meta was better, it was flat out easier. Unless you were zerg busting 20v60/80, having bad players was a non issue. Now the margin for error is a lot smaller, you get punished way harder now then you did back in the day. No offense to anyone but the player base(as a whole) doesn't have the dedication it used to, getting to T1 is a joke, score doesn't matter, population and match ups are out of wack, out side of GvG (debatable) there is really no real competition that matters like it did "back in the day".

 

I don't think there is anything we or anet can do to bring back "old WvW". You'll never get the full player base to agree to anything. Anet has to force the game mode. Which they can't/won't do because half the population will throw a fit and quit.

 

adapt survive overcome...or don't...

[Sovereign.1093]

gw2 wvw is more strat than skill since the beginning.

 

back then ppt mattered. =)

back then it was still ae bombs.

[X T D.6458]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> gw2 wvw is more strat than skill since the beginning.

>

> back then ppt mattered. =)

> back then it was still ae bombs.

 

Only real time that PPT mattered in the past was during seasons. Aside from that it really wasn't as important because of how slow Glicko was to update matchups and rankings. You could literally have lost every week for 2 months and not moved out of a tier, and we would be matched up with the same servers for literally over a year at times. This was good for servers that wanted to stay in a tier and were more fights focused, but bad for servers that had to deal with a mass exodus as they suddenly found themselves stuck in imbalanced matchups for a long period of time.

[X T D.6458]

> @"Caliburn.1845" said:

> Played extensively in WvW since headstart, spent at least a 1000 hours each doing roaming, zerging, map blobbing.

 

Such a casual ;)

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > gw2 wvw is more strat than skill since the beginning.

> >

> > back then ppt mattered. =)

> > back then it was still ae bombs.

>

> Only real time that PPT mattered in the past was during seasons. Aside from that it really wasn't as important because of how slow Glicko was to update matchups and rankings. You could literally have lost every week for 2 months and not moved out of a tier, and we would be matched up with the same servers for literally over a year at times. This was good for servers that wanted to stay in a tier and were more fights focused, but bad for servers that had to deal with a mass exodus as they suddenly found themselves stuck in imbalanced matchups for a long period of time.

 

ppl whined about that too. u.u

 

i whine about the 4k lag. literaly cant fight until 430 pm server time if blob v blob.

 

and we raid at 2pm to 6pm. i feep dirty when i lead my fight squad to ppt on empty maps.

 

recruiting alt vommander sea time 2pm to 4pm

[Pancake.3092]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Pancake.3092" said:

> > Revert WvW back to core spec only. But Anet will never do it.

> >

> > Even now, if people were only allowed to run core specs and stats, fights would be so much less gimmicky than they are now. Anet should have a trial weekend or something. They already have this system in place for those non paying peasants. Anyone who's being playing a while already knows how op the elite specs are, it's just not easy to tell - but go on the GW2 wiki and compare the cooldowns, damage numbers, condi stacks etc of anything from PoF to anything from the base game.

> >

> > _For Example_

> >

> > I play core engi, and after HoT the only core build that was viable was condi - my pistol 2 shoots some poison bullets which do pretty much nothing but hopefully waste a condi clear so the burn stacks can do damage. Holosmith sword 2 leaps to the target (leap finisher), gives you (and your m8s) swiftness and sets you up to spam the rest of your skills (which are op as well)... and it's on a 2 second cd, compared to 10 seconds on poison volley.

> >

> > In summary, it 100% got dumbed down. Don't believe me, try roaming with your favourite core spec and stats. Reply to this post with your montage of getting 1 shot by, or doing absolutely no damage to, any of the PoF specs.

>

> i dont think to disable core specs is a way anet can/will go as it would upset way too many players that are currently playing the game, might bring some back but how many of those would actually play longer than 2 weeks?

 

I think you're _~~somewhat~~ absolutely_ right and will stop solely $hitposting about xpacs making the game p2w because of this. I still think xpacs were delivered in a way that was ultimately detrimental to WvW, but maybe better for the health of the game overall.

 

Maybe WvW has had its day in the sun?

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Do you remember the days where Portal Bombs were a primary strat (cat a wall, stack somewhere far away and mes would equip all stealth/teleporty skills and port everyone straight to the lords room)? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

 

Remember when cross map golem porting to take keeps/towers were a thing? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

 

Remember when a couple thieves actually ran as a scout as a primary objective? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[X T D.6458]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > gw2 wvw is more strat than skill since the beginning.

> > >

> > > back then ppt mattered. =)

> > > back then it was still ae bombs.

> >

> > Only real time that PPT mattered in the past was during seasons. Aside from that it really wasn't as important because of how slow Glicko was to update matchups and rankings. You could literally have lost every week for 2 months and not moved out of a tier, and we would be matched up with the same servers for literally over a year at times. This was good for servers that wanted to stay in a tier and were more fights focused, but bad for servers that had to deal with a mass exodus as they suddenly found themselves stuck in imbalanced matchups for a long period of time.

>

> ppl whined about that too. u.u

>

> i whine about the 4k lag. literaly cant fight until 430 pm server time if blob v blob.

>

> and we raid at 2pm to 6pm. i feep dirty when i lead my fight squad to ppt on empty maps.

>

> recruiting alt vommander sea time 2pm to 4pm

 

Lag is everyones enemy. Years ago the skill lag was terrible, you literally could not cast anything. It's better now but those random ping spikes seem to always happen at the worst possible times. I feel bad for the OCX/SEA players because they have it rough.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:

> did it get dumbed down or did people start to learn their kitten? every mmo out there that has open world pvp or closed world pvp (like gw2) has a period where its chaotic, all classes are viable, people are trying out everything there is to try out engineers are commanding zergs etc. But as the pieces fall into place some people learn whats more efficient to play and that quuickly spread to other players.

> Just saying after 6 years soon it's inevitable unless Anet shake things up real good.

 

Ya this is reality and why new games are flocked to. Games become stale because everyone ends up in the same builds eventually.

[Kaiser.9873]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> > @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

> >

> > Kinda wondering the same thing. From the very beginning it was he who had the best stab won. Now it's he who pirate ships best wins. No skill difference at all.

> > I did prefer when ppl weren't getting one-shot, but none of the metas has been particularly skill based.

>

> You have probably never been in a 6 hour garri fight :/

 

Well since I left BG post-season 1 no I haven't been. Of course if you want to guess about my WvW experience, I have plenty in every tier, started life on CD with Empyrean Knights then followed them through various moves, went to BG, went to SoS, then back to BG, then on to YB where Empyrean Knights dissolved. Various guilds since then of course, and am happily in BANE atm. Those old time BG, SoR, JQ hills fights were pretty amazing.

[Ashen.2907]

There has always been a skill element to wvw. There still is.

 

But numbers can outweigh skill, and always could.

 

Remember that to, "get there first with the most," (my apologies to Nathan Bedford Forrest for butchering his quote) is as valid and effective a tactic as many more complex and/or skilled a strategem.

[Hollywood.3490]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> There has always been a skill element to wvw. There still is.

>

> But numbers can outweigh skill, and always could.

>

 

We just encountered an enemy roaming squad: thief and six spellbreakers. Imagine the display of skill...

[X T D.6458]

> @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

> > >

> > > Kinda wondering the same thing. From the very beginning it was he who had the best stab won. Now it's he who pirate ships best wins. No skill difference at all.

> > > I did prefer when ppl weren't getting one-shot, but none of the metas has been particularly skill based.

> >

> > You have probably never been in a 6 hour garri fight :/

>

> Well since I left BG post-season 1 no I haven't been. Of course if you want to guess about my WvW experience, I have plenty in every tier, started life on CD with Empyrean Knights then followed them through various moves, went to BG, went to SoS, then back to BG, then on to YB where Empyrean Knights dissolved. Various guilds since then of course, and am happily in BANE atm. Those old time BG, SoR, JQ hills fights were pretty amazing.

 

Heh was just kidding, anyone who played back then remembers the hours long keep fights being a daily thing :).

 

I remember EK and Gismor was it? Was a good group to run with, until they got mixed up with you know who.

[coro.3176]

Just my opinions, disagreement welcome

 

Solo:

* reduce the dominance of certain roaming builds. Some are too deadly; some too unkillable; some exploit perma-invulns/perma-stealth/etc.

 

Small Fights:

* I think these are still skillful and can't think of any obvious changes right now aside from general class balance that is discussed to death in the PvP forum.

 

PPT/Siege Wars:

* require objective upgrades to be manually triggered. They can still be free.

* reduce the range of lord scaling. It should be possible for a small group to stealthily capture a keep. Currently this is pretty difficult because any large group nearby will scale up the lord too much

* Similarly, get rid of the revealed buff after a keep is flipped. Hiding and hunting players down is a skill. It's a bit too easy now that they draw an orange dot on the map. As a compromise, maybe only draw the orange dot once a minute so they can hide if they keep moving

* have a small safe treb spot for each keep outer wall that can't be counter-sieged and can't be defended against with shield generators on the keep side. This should discourage turtling in the keep with a lot of defensive siege and should encourage open-field fights as defenders will have to run out and fight to kill the treb.

* reduce arrow cart damage on players. Increase arrow cart effects (cripple, etc.)

 

Large Fights:

* Boon strip: good. Boon corrupt: bad

* Get rid of Sand Savant, or remove the aoe effect at the scourge's position as well

 

[Scud.5067]

The reality is:

 

Many game developers spend very little, if anything, on actual R&D, especially past launch.

 

..and for sensible, if not 'good' reason. It is a luxury that few can afford.

 

Refinement of a system doesn't automatically result in better received system. R&D doesn't guarantee sales. Or rather, while its typically understood that R&D is 'good', people prioritize the here and now - the next release/whatever pays everyone's bills. R&D then, is a luxury that few can justify investing in.

 

Bug testing? Of course - at least enough to ensure its generally playable before launch. Actual R&D? _....thin on the ground._

 

Interestingly, R&D is often a gamble and treated as a 'black box' - something something idea --- we make it better (black box) -- we implement, release and done. The actual articulation of how things are made better is typically glossed over. The number of game designers who go with an idea that's not been through rigorous prototyping, testing and development? Well.... how many crappy games are out there?

 

To address WvW. I can't honestly quantify WvW 'back then' and compare it to 'WvW' now. As such, I can't say how the things have changed with regards to 'skill'.

 

However, I do know that, unless Arena Net is some magical anomaly, what they have is an unfinished system that's been added to over time due to financial pressure. The result? The obvious mishmash of a play experience we can all log on and experience today.

 

Can the WvW play experience be made more 'skill' based? Simplifying the whole issue of player perception and how exactly one might define skill, the answer is: Yes. But it takes time = money from Arena Net, an investment, to do so. And I guarantee, whoever is working on WvW _(or PvP in general)_ would love, absolutely love more time and money to prototype, test and develop the system they have to work with.

 

But there's only so much time = money to go around, and they'll have to work with what they've got. Development is an action, a process, ongoing. Which is to say, things will get 'better', if the appropriate parties are given the chance to make things 'better'. But the truth is, such chances are not given - designers have to fight tooth and nail to secure time and are required to justify any money spent, on making a better game.

 

Which makes, sense - its a business after all.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Hollywood.3490" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > There has always been a skill element to wvw. There still is.

> >

> > But numbers can outweigh skill, and always could.

> >

>

> We just encountered an enemy roaming squad: thief and six spellbreakers. Imagine the display of skill...

 

Doesn't invalidate anything I said.

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> I remember EK and Gismor was it? Was a good group to run with, until they got mixed up with you know who.

 

 

hehe

 

[Kaiser.9873]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > I remember EK and Gismor was it? Was a good group to run with, until they got mixed up with you know who.

>

>

>

> hehe

>

 

LMAO that was ME on the ram on my little Asura Necro.

[BMW.2951]

> @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

> > >

> > > Kinda wondering the same thing. From the very beginning it was he who had the best stab won. Now it's he who pirate ships best wins. No skill difference at all.

> > > I did prefer when ppl weren't getting one-shot, but none of the metas has been particularly skill based.

> >

> > You have probably never been in a 6 hour garri fight :/

>

> Well since I left BG post-season 1 no I haven't been. Of course if you want to guess about my WvW experience, I have plenty in every tier, started life on CD with Empyrean Knights then followed them through various moves, went to BG, went to SoS, then back to BG, then on to YB where Empyrean Knights dissolved. Various guilds since then of course, and am happily in BANE atm. Those old time BG, SoR, JQ hills fights were pretty amazing.

 

I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"BMW.2951" said:

> I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

 

That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"BMW.2951" said:

> > I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT **when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1** and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

>

> That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

 

? ?

 

Pushing a server up because the scores improved isn't bandwagoning.

 

Joining it after or on it's way up is. 2012-2013 is the start of the game..