Any news on mesmer balance yet? I may have missed it

[curse.2310]

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> lol that "nerf" is pointless. I wouldn't even bother with doing it to be honest. It achieves zero

 

It achieves you dont SotE and pop enchanter and defender during CS just to po(o)p it again after CS. Its an excellent fix for a start, and the skill is even more than 50% responsible for chrono being that strong.

[Sandzibar.5134]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > Objective and unbiased feedback?....that's a big promise, too big for a single individual to make

>

> Closer to it than you'll get from this forum section.

 

If it comes from the horrorshow that is the mesmer sub.. then no. It wont be objective and unbiased AT ALL.

 

Id rather leave it in the hands of the devs than you lot.

 

 

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

>

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

>

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

Thx for the heads up

 

Mesmers is gonna remain incredibly overturned tho. Still no reason to play gw this season.

 

If only u would balance mesmer with the next patch that could make many ppl play the pvp season but without any further changes the season gonna continue as it is.

 

Well.. U might have ur reasons for letting the pvp season continue in such a horrible state?!

(considering you said u want to do the balance patch mid season from now on lol)

[apharma.3741]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > lol that "nerf" is pointless. I wouldn't even bother with doing it to be honest. It achieves zero

>

> This nerf is dang good for an emergency nerf. Signet of the Ether is like 50% of why Chronomancers are so grossly overpowered.

 

While sure it does something to chrono power it doesn’t really address the problem (too much cool down reduction and phantasm recycling on chrono) and I really hope this is not a precedent to expect in the upcoming balance patch.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

>

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

>

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

quick maths!

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > > >

> > > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> > >

> > > First, I really hope that isn't the biggest nerf you guys have in store.

> > >

> > > Second. Please for the love of joko look through the mesmer forums for suggestions on what to nerf. The last several balance patches you guys have completely ignored us when we told you what was overpowered and needed to be nerfed, and look where we are at now with mesmer.

> > >

> > > Third, please strongly consider putting up a list of the proposed mesmer nerfs at least one month in advance so you can get feedback on it, and then actually have time to act on that feedback, and get a second round of feedback, and act on that round too, before the changes are finalized.

> >

> > Objective and unbiased feedback?....that's a big promise, too big for a single individual to make

>

> Never used the words objective and unbiased, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

>

> Besides, it was mesmer mains who were telling ANet that kitten would be broken beyond belief before it was even introduced, back to before PoF launched. If they had listened to us, mesmer wouldn't be nearly as strong as it is right now. With everyone else crying about phantasm caps, it was mesmer mains who were pointing out that SotE and CP were the reason so many phantasms could be summoned in the first place. It was mesmer mains who were giving ideas as to how to address these issues, not you guys.

 

It was mesmer mains that were saying mirage is a failed spec and would suck at everything and it was mesmer mains that were lamenting the phantasm rework, saying that it would nerf and destroy the class.

 

Don't act like there's a single shared opinion among mesmer mains.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > @"Panda.3620" said:

> > and thief cause there is always thief nerf, nerfing thief each balance patch is almost religiously

> And curiously, they still endure.

 

Anet is really pushing our class identity on us of being able to always adapt. In the wise words of Ian Malcolm. Thieves..uh..find a way.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"Panda.3620" said:

> > > and thief cause there is always thief nerf, nerfing thief each balance patch is almost religiously

> > And curiously, they still endure.

>

> Anet is really pushing our class identity on us of being able to always adapt. In the wise words of Ian Malcolm. Thieves..uh..find a way.

 

Meh, jumping to p/p isn't what I would call "finding a way"

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > > @"Panda.3620" said:

> > > > and thief cause there is always thief nerf, nerfing thief each balance patch is almost religiously

> > > And curiously, they still endure.

> >

> > Anet is really pushing our class identity on us of being able to always adapt. In the wise words of Ian Malcolm. Thieves..uh..find a way.

>

> Meh, jumping to p/p isn't what I would call "finding a way"

 

S/D is fine and I heard D/P is okay. P/P is definitely a cheese build, but S/D is still very capable.

[SPESHAL.9106]

First, you got to at least give Anet props for doing something mid-season. You can still criticize them for dropping the ball big time with mesmers and being late to address the obvious, but at least they are trying to correct one of many obvious problems.

 

The good/bad thing is that it will show just how OP Mesmers are right now when this change doesn't materially change the dominance of mesmers over other professions. The mesmer rework was just bad...period...and is the reason for this mess. Hopefully, Anet goes back and looks at how they got things so wrong in the first place, so it doesn't happen again.

 

It's much like how they messed up with Necros/Scourge. The problematic talent has always been Sand Savant. If you tried to play any other trait in this spot, you would have noticed that even Scourge pre-nerfs weren't that bad. It made areas easier to dodge and required basically cast times, cool downs, etc to get the same coverage. However, instead of just fixing that one trait, they do all kinds of nerfs that just made Sand Savant even more of a requirement now and all other builds got permanently trash heaped.

 

Failure to identify the REAL reasons for problems in a timely manner has been the main problem with Anet. As a result, they are constantly chasing their tails and rendering tons of builds unplayable/wasted programming...or...buffing things so much that they create a season killing/game quitting profession like mesmers.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Yeah. Well I don't play so much PvP anymore, but the AA and LS nerf is felt vs bunkerish builds in wvw but not noticed so much vs enemy power builds.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Yeah. Well I don't play so much PvP anymore, but the AA and LS nerf is felt vs bunkerish builds in wvw but not noticed so much vs enemy power builds.

 

Yea S/D can still manage most fights, but with the nerf kinda got pushed to a +1 role again. Not completely like D/P is but yea.

[mixxed.5862]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

>

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

>

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

This looks like a good hotfix for the Chrono build.

You are really putting a lot of effort into PvP balance recently, it is much appreciated and I think you are doing great. Thank you!

 

But just as a small reminder (because I'm a little frustrated with it): WvW is still caught in a stale and anti-fun, pirate-ship-heavy meta dominated by Scourges, that make up ~50-60% of a zerg, spamming their AoEs everywhere, while bringing decent support and shutting down any melee push with boon corrupts, lots of soft cc and a target cap of 10 in a big radius on shade skills. The skill split release was a step in the right direction but for WvW it wasn't enough.

Are you looking into this issue?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> >

> > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> >

> > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

>

> Thanks for talking to us, Ben! Really appreciated.

 

This X a thousand.

A lot of us get pretty heated but we always appreciate feedback, plans of action and commentary when it comes to spvp.

[Julius Seizure.4985]

Thank you for the feedback and update.

 

I just want to add that aside from balance, it might be a really good idea to consider what would actually be fun to play against when designing elite specs. You have released at least 3 Elite specs this expansion (Mirage, Scourge, Deadeye) that are so unenjoyable to face in competitive game modes that a sizable amount of my friends list have decided to abandon the game and/or game mode (PvP / WvW).

 

I would hope that the competitive game mode designers get more input into future elite spec design..

[Arioch.4810]

Thanks for the news Ben!

IMO this is a great way to touch up on Mesmer: It will change the burst of the average player in a noticeable way, giving options to counterplay. Great players on Mesmers still can ruin your day with chronomancer's F5 fueling a bunch of back to back phantasms.

Change that will reign in some of the power in the hands of competent but average player while still leaving a chance for great player to dominate, i like that.

 

Man, in couple short weeks Anet's team handled problems with 3rd party software, did a skill split, now they're touching up on classes..we players will be spoiled in no time!

Keep up the good work.

[bravan.3876]

For me the underwater changes made it! GG

[Mervent.2635]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

>

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

>

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

By doing that change you just hit many builds, other than chrono, that is using signet of ether and not using disenchanter

(which tbh was badly reworked and created a lot of problems around mesmer balance).

And many of those builds don't have anything close to chrono phantasm spam.

Personally, i never run chrono, and i'm resetting gs4 with ether which can be pretty easily evaded.

And that's it.

 

Well i don't care a lot for spvp, so i'll say for wvw only .

Phantasms absolutely useless in anything except small fights in WvW.

They can't do anything in wvw zerg fights, they just get interrupted/deleted faster than do any damage.

And there is no big issue in phantasm spam in wvw, so what is the point doing that change for WvW?

Don't we have skill split just for that?

[Hoodie.1045]

> We're splitting Signet of the Ether in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than > 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second

> recharge.

 

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

 

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

Thanks for the info, Ben. Would you kindly take this

• (

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37029/how-to-properly-improve-core-engineer-in-pvp#latest "list") into consideration for the next balance patch? Please?

[OriOri.8724]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > > > >

> > > > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > > > >

> > > > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> > > >

> > > > First, I really hope that isn't the biggest nerf you guys have in store.

> > > >

> > > > Second. Please for the love of joko look through the mesmer forums for suggestions on what to nerf. The last several balance patches you guys have completely ignored us when we told you what was overpowered and needed to be nerfed, and look where we are at now with mesmer.

> > > >

> > > > Third, please strongly consider putting up a list of the proposed mesmer nerfs at least one month in advance so you can get feedback on it, and then actually have time to act on that feedback, and get a second round of feedback, and act on that round too, before the changes are finalized.

> > >

> > > Objective and unbiased feedback?....that's a big promise, too big for a single individual to make

> >

> > Never used the words objective and unbiased, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

> >

> > Besides, it was mesmer mains who were telling ANet that kitten would be broken beyond belief before it was even introduced, back to before PoF launched. If they had listened to us, mesmer wouldn't be nearly as strong as it is right now. With everyone else crying about phantasm caps, it was mesmer mains who were pointing out that SotE and CP were the reason so many phantasms could be summoned in the first place. It was mesmer mains who were giving ideas as to how to address these issues, not you guys.

>

> It was mesmer mains that were saying mirage is a failed spec and would suck at everything and it was mesmer mains that were lamenting the phantasm rework, saying that it would nerf and destroy the class.

>

> Don't act like there's a single shared opinion among mesmer mains.

 

And mirage _was_ a failed spec before the changes that it received. Axe and ambush attacks were horribly weak, on top of a clunky dodge that wasn't even long enough to secure the channel on our ambush attacks when it was first revealed. Its not our fault that Anet took our feedback on everything that was underwhelming, but ignored our cries about EM

 

No mesmer main worth listening to ever said the phantasm rework was going to destroy the class. You made that up, and its quite obvious.

 

And no, no group this large will ever have a single shared opinion. Nice faux argument there, trying to claim that since we didn't have a unanimous opinion, that clearly none of our suggestions hold merit. Get off your high hors

[Sampson.2403]

Nice fix. This will definitely remove the god status from the Disenchanter Chrono Build.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> Thanks for the news Ben!

> IMO this is a great way to touch up on Mesmer: It will change the burst of the average player in a noticeable way, giving options to counterplay. Great players on Mesmers still can ruin your day with chronomancer's F5 fueling a bunch of back to back phantasms.

> Change that will reign in some of the power in the hands of competent but average player while still leaving a chance for great player to dominate, i like that.

>

> Man, in couple short weeks Anet's team handled problems with 3rd party software, did a skill split, now they're touching up on classes..we players will be spoiled in no time!

> Keep up the good work.

 

Nah hold on don't feed their egos now. Limit one (1) backpat per dev.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> No mesmer main worth listening to ever said the phantasm rework was going to destroy the class. You made that up, and its quite obvious.

 

Not that I wanna butt in on this, but I just kinda am gonna chime in here and say (No True Scotsman defense notwithstanding) that [he didn't make that up.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26956/upcoming-mesmer-nerf-s#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26956/upcoming-mesmer-nerf-s/p1")

 

It's true that Mesmers did help identify specifically where the problem was (and we do need that. I don't want this kneejerk reaction balancing to absolutely destroy class cores like it's done in the past, because I have a power shatter mes I wanna learn). But you guys are split too when it comes to balancing.

Agreed that there was significant mesmer feedback about __putting a stunbreak on a dodge__ . I don't know who thought that was a good idea to let through testing.

 

 

 

 

 

[zoopop.5630]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> > > > >

> > > > > First, I really hope that isn't the biggest nerf you guys have in store.

> > > > >

> > > > > Second. Please for the love of joko look through the mesmer forums for suggestions on what to nerf. The last several balance patches you guys have completely ignored us when we told you what was overpowered and needed to be nerfed, and look where we are at now with mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > Third, please strongly consider putting up a list of the proposed mesmer nerfs at least one month in advance so you can get feedback on it, and then actually have time to act on that feedback, and get a second round of feedback, and act on that round too, before the changes are finalized.

> > > >

> > > > Objective and unbiased feedback?....that's a big promise, too big for a single individual to make

> > >

> > > Never used the words objective and unbiased, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

> > >

> > > Besides, it was mesmer mains who were telling ANet that kitten would be broken beyond belief before it was even introduced, back to before PoF launched. If they had listened to us, mesmer wouldn't be nearly as strong as it is right now. With everyone else crying about phantasm caps, it was mesmer mains who were pointing out that SotE and CP were the reason so many phantasms could be summoned in the first place. It was mesmer mains who were giving ideas as to how to address these issues, not you guys.

> >

> > It was mesmer mains that were saying mirage is a failed spec and would suck at everything and it was mesmer mains that were lamenting the phantasm rework, saying that it would nerf and destroy the class.

> >

> > Don't act like there's a single shared opinion among mesmer mains.

>

> And mirage _was_ a failed spec before the changes that it received. Axe and ambush attacks were horribly weak, on top of a clunky dodge that wasn't even long enough to secure the channel on our ambush attacks when it was first revealed. Its not our fault that Anet took our feedback on everything that was underwhelming, but ignored our cries about EM

>

> No mesmer main worth listening to ever said the phantasm rework was going to destroy the class. You made that up, and its quite obvious.

>

> And no, no group this large will ever have a single shared opinion. Nice faux argument there, trying to claim that since we didn't have a unanimous opinion, that clearly none of our suggestions hold merit. Get off your high hors

 

how was mirage a failed spec before the changes that it received? It was busted all over the place..... Confusion stacking was bunkers, Power mirage is freaking stupid powerful before as well, and even NOW after some changes made they are still really good. I mean BOTH Na and Eu Pro teams had mirages played during UGO(condi at that). I don't understand the statement you made saying they were underwhelming.

 

and quiet few mesmer main complaint saying the class was going to be awfully weak(these are some of the best mesmer players in na, I have discord conversation to back this up.). Mesmer during Pof was never weak or crap, it just took a while for everyone to figure out the class and how to properly play it same crap was for FB.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > > > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First, I really hope that isn't the biggest nerf you guys have in store.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Second. Please for the love of joko look through the mesmer forums for suggestions on what to nerf. The last several balance patches you guys have completely ignored us when we told you what was overpowered and needed to be nerfed, and look where we are at now with mesmer.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Third, please strongly consider putting up a list of the proposed mesmer nerfs at least one month in advance so you can get feedback on it, and then actually have time to act on that feedback, and get a second round of feedback, and act on that round too, before the changes are finalized.

> > > > >

> > > > > Objective and unbiased feedback?....that's a big promise, too big for a single individual to make

> > > >

> > > > Never used the words objective and unbiased, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

> > > >

> > > > Besides, it was mesmer mains who were telling ANet that kitten would be broken beyond belief before it was even introduced, back to before PoF launched. If they had listened to us, mesmer wouldn't be nearly as strong as it is right now. With everyone else crying about phantasm caps, it was mesmer mains who were pointing out that SotE and CP were the reason so many phantasms could be summoned in the first place. It was mesmer mains who were giving ideas as to how to address these issues, not you guys.

> > >

> > > It was mesmer mains that were saying mirage is a failed spec and would suck at everything and it was mesmer mains that were lamenting the phantasm rework, saying that it would nerf and destroy the class.

> > >

> > > Don't act like there's a single shared opinion among mesmer mains.

> >

> > And mirage _was_ a failed spec before the changes that it received. Axe and ambush attacks were horribly weak, on top of a clunky dodge that wasn't even long enough to secure the channel on our ambush attacks when it was first revealed. Its not our fault that Anet took our feedback on everything that was underwhelming, but ignored our cries about EM

> >

> > No mesmer main worth listening to ever said the phantasm rework was going to destroy the class. You made that up, and its quite obvious.

> >

> > And no, no group this large will ever have a single shared opinion. Nice faux argument there, trying to claim that since we didn't have a unanimous opinion, that clearly none of our suggestions hold merit. Get off your high hors

>

> how was mirage a failed spec before the changes that it received? It was busted all over the place..... Confusion stacking was bunkers, Power mirage is freaking stupid powerful before as well, and even NOW after some changes made they are still really good. I mean BOTH Na and Eu Pro teams had mirages played during UGO(condi at that). I don't understand the statement you made saying they were underwhelming.

>

> and quiet few mesmer main complaint saying the class was going to be awfully weak(these are some of the best mesmer players in na, I have discord conversation to back this up.). Mesmer during Pof was never weak or crap, it just took a while for everyone to figure out the class and how to properly play it same crap was for FB.

 

On demo weekends and post-PoF launch, both Mirage and FB were at the same spot, the trash bin. Both of them got huge buffs and bug fixes. I mean, with Infinite Horizon, clones were doing almost zero damage. Elusive Mind probably was the only decent thing for Mirages. After a lot of forum cries, it got some stuff, a lot of bugs got fixed etc. Then the infamous post-pof condi mirage was born.