More Condi in WvW

[mulzi.8273]

condi wouldnt be _that_ bad, at least to me, if there the armor, like exotic armor was reasonable to get, like zerks. To get a decent set of condi gear costs wa> @coglin.1496 said:

> > @Strages.2950 said:

>

> > You can't block or blind conditions that have already been applied, I should have been clearer. ALSO for instance shout necros use the aoe shout that makes your skills unblock able and then dish out their condi un burst.

>

> You cannot block or blind direct damage that has already been applied, so what is your point. Skills land, they apply damage. Some apply it all at once, others apply it over time. Both apply it after the skill has been landed. Your comparison is irrational and illogical.

>

> You can still dodge "unblockable" skills as well as apply blinds that prevent those skills from landing.

>

> Almost every single defensive tactic or action in this game that defends against or negates direct damage does the same for conditions damage. only condition damage is also negated by cleanses and resistance.

>

 

With a few exceptions, you can apply condi without even targetting a specific person. Spray and pray. Take condi reaper (meta build). All you do is drop Aoes, spam shouts, and spin and hope you hit something, then run away when stuff is on cooldown. Now take power. Again, there are a few exceptions, but the majority requires you to target a specific person, and then hit that person. And then there are blocks, evades, reflects, toughness, etc to negate that damage. Not to mention once your spike is over, you have no damage on your enemy until your spike is off cooldown. Whereas condi just keeps ticking away, cause the condi application far, far exceeds cleanse cooldowns.

 

Add it up all you want, but condi is a 'casual' spec: it allows players low risk, high reward. You spam your skills and then hide, stealth, run away while condis do their work. Condis keep damaging while you stay out of the 'danger zone' . Power is high risk, moderate reward. Power, at least to be effective, you have to neuter your survival, have to have skill to land a spike and then survive and generally have to get in the danger zone to be effective.

 

Anet likes condis as it allows casual folks to play and feel productive, getting relatively easy kills/tags for events, etc. That and anet has an issue balancing power and the 'time-to-live' factor. If they buff power, peoples time-to-live drops, and then start complaining about dying too fast.. Condi gives the illusion that the time to live is high..

[patton the great.7126]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @"patton the great.7126" said:

> > More Condi's please. I think we should Add Burn type number's to Fear as well. Maybe increase Torment and Bleed's potency. Give chill it's damage back as well. If I can't play my fricken beloved Power Zerker anymore, NO classes should be able to play and enjoy their fricken Power builds....*Dr Evil laugh* MUHAHAHHA.....muhahahaMUhahaha.

>

>

>

> obtuse comment :angry:

> sadly thats the Anet recipe, some classes really sacrifice some part of their surviability to go damage as in mellee that was making the game to diffucult for bad player, Anet decided to give condi super spam where that would make bad players look good and dont drop the game, less effort, more motivation to play.

>

> For some reason GW2 is one of the worst pvp game in mmo history... and a mediocre PVE with good graphics, the game is only designed to carry players with the gimmicks and make players atached to that cause the game cant offer much more than that...

>

> I said during HoT it would become worse with more spam.. Welcome to the age of lamer wars...sponsored by the awfull Anet.

>

> IF WvW players are really into PVE why keep borking up and making mistakes after mistakes into PVE??????? that lack of vision.. ANet...

>

> P.S.... the lame wars has another problem.. on larger group fights ill ic is bright light on the screen due your graphical polution to cater the skrits playign this game, u guys even lost track of that.... theres already to much shiny crap on the game.

> Anet should release a book how to make a good mmo a bad mmo version 2, or how to ruin your own game.

 

I mean so the solution you have come to is insult Anet. Sure mistakes have been made, but this game is far from one of the worst PvP games in history. I hate Condi's as much as anyone, but it's tirades like this that keep the WvW Devs from ever setting foot in these forums to actually have a chat with us about the balance this game desperately needs. Hopefully they open up to us and lay out why they do things the way they do, explain to us why they have crushed power builds. Make no mistake, I too believe this current condi spam meta is way out of control, but we won't see change if most threads are composed of Anet hate speech.

[Junkpile.7439]

Why people talk that reaper spam shouts? How they can spam shout if they have epidemic, speed signet and boon corrupt?

[Jana.6831]

> @"patton the great.7126" said:

> I mean so the solution you have come to is insult Anet. Sure mistakes have been made, but this game is far from one of the worst PvP games in history. I hate Condi's as much as anyone, but it's tirades like this that keep the WvW Devs from ever setting foot in these forums to actually have a chat with us about the balance this game desperately needs. Hopefully they open up to us and lay out why they do things the way they do, explain to us why they have crushed power builds. Make no mistake, I too believe this current condi spam meta is way out of control, but we won't see change if most threads are composed of Anet hate speech.

 

That wasn't that hateful and I think most here agree that balance is broken since HoT - which launched 2 years ago. I guess there was a very long time in which no one ever "hate speeched" and nothing happened anyway. It's a bit far fetched to say that nothing will ever happen because some single players were not so nice.

(And they did destroy their own game)

 

ETA: I did like the last balance patch, although I think Necros got a buff and that buff pretty much destroyed large scale 'long' before PoF. But, to not kitten off PvE players they mostly buff and rarely nerf. I think we've had 2 or maybe 3 real balance patches (which included WvW - a lot were PvP only) since HoT launch. The game was already pretty broken before HoT because the traitmerge was never balanced. We got a lot of powercreep on top of that and with their philosophy of not nerfing but only buffing they won't be able to balance. And it takes too long. = They do some good but it's not enough and at this rate it will never be.

[Blodeuyn.2751]

It is interesting to see the discussions about condi issues in medium to large groups, with valid points on both sides. However, I think for those who roam or run in smaller groups, the issue becomes much more apparent. The current state of wvw reminds me of Archeage, if anyone was unfortunate enough to play that. There were around 120 classes you could create, but in reality only 3-5 were even viable for pvp. It had nothing to do with skill, the game was designed to work that way from inception.

 

I can only give you my perspective from running in smaller groups, as I don't zerg. I'm an extremely tanky Tempest and I can heal/clear condi with the best of them. I've played this way since well before HoT. However, I've been taken out in less than 5 seconds, while running with a group of friends, by a single roaming condi necro build (before PoF). That seems quite broken. No skill involved on the enemy's part at all, that isn't even a fight.

 

This scenario isn't uncommon to encounter multiple times daily, though to be fair we usually don't see it to the extreme detailed above. Many of the small groups we fight consist of pure condi builds. We've adapted but there is only so much adapting to be done before the lack of skill in fights - if you can even call them that - becomes tiring. We are seeing the same scenarios time after time; sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. At this point, my guild takes great pleasure in hunting down condi huggers.

 

Please, let's keep it constructive, this isn't a L2P problem on my end. I'm just sharing my experiences to give more perspective.

[kathy.8291]

Does anyone even think Anet might do something about it. I know in the past when players complain about a class being too O.P. the next thing you know Anet is nerfing it. Since there are so many people, in different servers complaining about this Condi, Im hoping something will be done. I dont mind the condi but it would be nice to use skill and power to down someone. Condi may be this powerful and useful in PvE and PvP but it is not useful in WvW. Hopefully something will be done so we can all enjoy the game like we use to.

[jul.7602]

Condi was already pretty bad in hot, now its just cheese in pof.

[getalifeturd.8139]

Dire armor exists. Enough said.

[Shroud.2307]

The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

 

You can preach your complaints and write a bible about the purity of Power damage but the only person you're convincing is yourself and anyone else who's too narrow minded to read beyond their own short comings.

 

I want to discuss this topic but never once have I spoken with someone who's willing to accept when they've been proven wrong. I've learned things and changed my perspective many times based on valid arguments but all anyone else seems to want to do is say "condi's are OP, you're wrong, they need to be nerfed."

 

If you're having so much trouble with them, maybe consider the strengths and weaknesses of your build. Consider that nothing will win 100% of the time. Everything has it's hard match ups. And **in WvW where large scale combat dictates the balance of what something can do**, you should know by now that there are many, many overtuned builds. Of which condition builds are the least of your worries when there are skills that can drill you for upwards of 20k. And no, please do not make the "but they're glass so they're defenceless" claim because risk is irrelevant when you can kill someone so quickly that risk doesn't even come in to effect.

 

I am absolutely _not_ saying that a number of the condition builds that exist are balanced. I'm saying that **it isn't an issue with conditions specifically** and that there are ways to fight it if you're willing to adapt. You can shake the cage all you want and _maybe_ ANet will eventually listen but for the time being... Maybe try not recreating the same thread that reappears every two days.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

PoF condi META has me serious thinking about not supporting GW2 anymore. With gear sets like Trailblazer and Dire. And the coefficient of damage vs power and condition damage. Condition damage overshadows most power classes damage by good margin. This effectively completely ruining build diversity and the fun of playing game modes like WvW and sPvP, even raids and fractals.

 

I believe ANet should rework the damage coefficient for condition damage across all classes. Condition builds at present nearly completely dominate the whole game across the board.

[Miyafuji.1340]

Well what they should do is split it. Make the condi work different in WVW, PVE, PVP.

[primatos.5413]

They deleted the limit of how much stacks condi can be applied to one target for PvE .. And this same mechanic is used for another game mode where "targets" usually don´t have millions of hp.. clearly doesn´t make sense ^^

And why does a power build have to use three stats to increase dmg output but condi doesn`t ?

Fact is : Arenanet missed the chance to split skills for the different gamemodes with releasing PoF so whatever they say .. Either they´re unable to change it or not willing ... so .. the lag is still real :(

Shouldn´t they at least be able to regulate the way condition dmg is "handled intern" Example : If applied to an PvE Boss regular calculation for condition dmg

but if applied to another player change the calculation somehow that its limiting at "Point X"

[Shadowresli.3782]

> @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

> The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

>

> You can preach your complaints and write a bible about the purity of Power damage but the only person you're convincing is yourself and anyone else who's too narrow minded to read beyond their own short comings.

>

> I want to discuss this topic but never once have I spoken with someone who's willing to accept when they've been proven wrong. I've learned things and changed my perspective many times based on valid arguments but all anyone else seems to want to do is say "condi's are OP, you're wrong, they need to be nerfed."

>

> If you're having so much trouble with them, maybe consider the strengths and weaknesses of your build. Consider that nothing will win 100% of the time. Everything has it's hard match ups. And **in WvW where large scale combat dictates the balance of what something can do**, you should know by now that there are many, many overtuned builds. Of which condition builds are the least of your worries when there are skills that can drill you for upwards of 20k. And no, please do not make the "but they're glass so they're defenceless" claim because risk is irrelevant when you can kill someone so quickly that risk doesn't even come in to effect.

>

> I am absolutely _not_ saying that a number of the condition builds that exist are balanced. I'm saying that **it isn't an issue with conditions specifically** and that there are ways to fight it if you're willing to adapt. You can shake the cage all you want and _maybe_ ANet will eventually listen but for the time being... Maybe try not recreating the same thread that reappears every two days.

 

i agree with you.

 

the problem for me was, that i had to adapt to something, which wasn't that fun for me to play. and the lack of fun for me boils down to the current state of condis

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @TyPin.9860 said:

> > @Swamurabi.7890 said:

> > > @Hana.8143 said:

> > > >@Swamurabi.7890 said:

> > > > Boons + Condis = LAG

> > >

> > > Me in 2015 : We need less conditions cause it's killing WvW.

> > > Developer : Hold my beer, and also, NO.

> > > Me in 2017 : We need less conditions cause WvW is dead.

> >

> > I wonder when the first group comp calls for cleanse 1, cleanse 2 and cleanse 3

>

> What would be wrong with that?

 

When each 5 player squad is made up of 3 of the same class, that's a problem

[Jana.6831]

> @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

> The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

Condition builds are extremely easy to play and that since the ferocity patch back in April 2014. I guess this thread means large scale combat. You seem to adress small scale/ 1 vs 1 and even there condition builds are mostly easier to play than power builds. Condis aren't the only thing that's wrong with wvw, but large scale was able to buffer it up until the August patch - and it was made worse with PoF, due to spellbreaker. There is no 'adapt your build to deal with condis' anymore and that is the point. No one in this game has got any skill anymore, because even the most skillful players can't do anything about someone applying 25 stacks of a condition with a few hits or who have nearly endless blocks. So please don't pretend that you've got skill and those who are against condis haven't. The combat in wvw is broken.

 

Edit: grammar

[Inoki.6048]

The amount of condi is ridiculous. Just terrible. Condi is supposed to weaken, not insta-kill like a D/P thief.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @Inoki.6048 said:

> The amount of condi is ridiculous. Just terrible. Condi is supposed to weaken, not insta-kill like a D/P thief.

 

Wut? No one likes to be insta-killed... ._.

[Nuzt.7894]

> @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

> The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

>

> You can preach your complaints and write a bible about the purity of Power damage but the only person you're convincing is yourself and anyone else who's too narrow minded to read beyond their own short comings.

>

> I want to discuss this topic but never once have I spoken with someone who's willing to accept when they've been proven wrong. I've learned things and changed my perspective many times based on valid arguments but all anyone else seems to want to do is say "condi's are OP, you're wrong, they need to be nerfed."

>

> If you're having so much trouble with them, maybe consider the strengths and weaknesses of your build. Consider that nothing will win 100% of the time. Everything has it's hard match ups. And **in WvW where large scale combat dictates the balance of what something can do**, you should know by now that there are many, many overtuned builds. Of which condition builds are the least of your worries when there are skills that can drill you for upwards of 20k. And no, please do not make the "but they're glass so they're defenceless" claim because risk is irrelevant when you can kill someone so quickly that risk doesn't even come in to effect.

>

> I am absolutely _not_ saying that a number of the condition builds that exist are balanced. I'm saying that **it isn't an issue with conditions specifically** and that there are ways to fight it if you're willing to adapt. You can shake the cage all you want and _maybe_ ANet will eventually listen but for the time being... Maybe try not recreating the same thread that reappears every two days.

 

It is a an issue with conditions at least half of the equation directly involves Condi's, the number of stacks and how easily/fast they can be applied and reapplied. The other half is the lack of cleansing, more to the point it's not a build issue its the fact that there is not enough cleanses to deal with the way condi's work. Resistance is now worthless with the ease of corrupting and stripping. There are numerous post floating around the web from people who didn't come here and complain but sat and did the testing all of which have concluded Application, reapplication, stack amounts and lack of cleansing is a direct issue. I'm not one of the people who think Condi's builds need to be thrown out the door, I don't really have an issue with a condi meta if it were implemented properly which is not the case. The simple truth comes down to mitigation of damage, you can mitigate power damage accordingly if you know what you're doing, you cannot mitigate Condi damage regardless of your knowledge if theres so much as 1 Spell Breaker present usually it's closer to 3-4 Spell Breakers that are on the field. Perhaps you should do some testing yourself and Record it so if you do find the mystical loophole you can prove it. Like I said it come down to simple math, resistance is prioritized for strips and corruption so your one boon meant to mitigate Condi's goes first, ok np you still have cleanses right ? Howe many condis are there in this game ? the average cleanse cleanses 1 yup thats right on average it's 1 condi, some cleanse 2 or even 3 all cleanses have a CD, so lets say you manage to cleanse all Condi's, great your condi free for a second then bam you're loaded up again, no problem you have clears ! Oh snap they're on CD, you know the CD the the majority of those condi's that were just slapped back on you did not have. You know its an issue when even the PvE population is saying it's an issue, this is not exclusive to WvW.

 

I'm with you on recreating the same thread but players get frustrated more so those of us who have been here and prior to GW2 release. We know what not to expect from the Dev's, we've lived through the hollow promises, we've watched the WvW Dev get over ruled time and again to the point they quit or move departments. We've watched Mike Obrien prove he has very little knowledge of his player base I mean that ones out there forever. There is plenty more, maybe you have been around the duration as well and maybe you're not as passionate as others. Make no mistake the whining and complaining usually derives from passion over a game we want to see succeed and be the best it can be in all modes for all player types.

[FaboBabo.3581]

When playing WvW i do exclusively roam ( Condi Mirrage :P )

While i admit that Condis can be annoying i'd say its more a term of group coordinating. The larger the group the more uncosistent are cleanse, heals etc , at least in my expectations. (as i said i dont zerg, blob , whatever that means)

 

My thaught would be runnin arround in smaller groups, to a maximum of ten people, to coordinate cleanses etc.

I NEVER got a condi bomb, which killed me in 1 second, while i was one shoted by power build this weak in under 1 second. Condis got more bursty, due to the reason that certain classes can easy outsustain conditions, with healing + partwise cleansing/resistance. Its too early in the expansion to call conditions overall OP in my opinion.

 

Think more about group-setting and try to get some guys into teamspeak to coordinate the group. We got a lot of group condition clear + Heal + Barriers.

[babazhook.6805]

I find Conditions EASIER to handle in small scale and roaming. I play thief for the most part and really do not find many condition builds I can not handle WHEN I spec for condition cleanse. There is more then enough damage generated by my thief to take down enemies in DIRE without having to resort to using Fire and Air sigils which I encounter on virtually every power build I meet.

 

I especially like to see a burn of 3k applied to me suddenly end up on my enemy because of the Generosity sigil and do not find it any more skillful to use p/p unload for power or a shadowhot off d/p for a 6k hit. I also fail to understand how anything a condition build does is defined as spam wherein power builds are "spamming" buttons and dodges and attacks just as frequently.

 

I play 80 percent power builds but can not take many of these complaints about Conditions seriously when the people in making their points against them have one set of rules for Conditions and another for power.

 

Both types of builds resort to spam. Both types of damage sources can be blocked or dodged or evaded. Both of them have AOE type attacks that can be dropped in an area to do damage without directly targeting an enemy.

 

This remains a simple fact and I do not have to read a thread to prove it to myself. When I take a build into WvW specced for condition cleanses and anticipating condition builds it does orders of magnitude better then does one of my builds using the same profession that is not specced for more cleanses. When I decided to practice on one of my power thiefs that uses just Trickster to cleanse conditions along with tricks and sigils so as to learn better how to AVOID condition damage applications in the first place , I got better at avoiding the same across the board. This hardly means I win every fight and do not suffer my shar eof losses, nor does it mean I consider myself an elite player or better then everyone else. I am just saying I have demonstrated to myself that the individual player can do a lot more to mitigate condition damage than what is being implied in virtually every one of these threads.

 

Once more there may be certain specs that are overtuned. Once more this does not mean a problem with "conditions" that is game wide.

 

 

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

I understand all you people saying you dont struggle with condi on x spec when roaming and that's great but id like to point out that as is often stated... WvWvW is not balanced around solo or small scale combat.. it's supposed to be balanced around large scale. That's why the main point of this thread is focused on how op condis are in large scale fights. And why ideas to solve the issue for large scale combat is required.

[lmaogg.7325]

As a condi user for 5 years, even I find the current condi meta stupid.

Please do change how condi is, bring DoT concept back.

[Sethanon Stormrage.6721]

> @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

> The amount of people that refuse to learn or improve in these constant threads since the release of this game is astounding. If people can't have their instant gratification, they band together and pretend to speak for everyone like they're the savior we've all been asking for.

>

> You can preach your complaints and write a bible about the purity of Power damage but the only person you're convincing is yourself and anyone else who's too narrow minded to read beyond their own short comings.

>

 

I've just taken down the inner wall of bay. I want to push in with my group but the choke is filled with aoe and boon strips. The enemy blob just standing there spamming the choke.

 

Pre boon hate i could push that with cleanses. Now with boon hate. It's constant cc and Condi spam. Can't pop stab nor resistance.

 

What would you do there? Go on.. educate me.

 

Sure boon hate is as much to blame as Condi. But they can't turn around and nerf a new elite just in the game. So condis need to be the target.

 

If it was power I can build to tank that and have the utilities to make the push. I can't keep up with the Condi spam no matter how many cleanses we build for.

 

[FaboBabo.3581]

Well tbh ; 40 ppl run against 40 ppl and expect to live longer then 1 second in a magicle Battle. Power or Condi , zerg fights are Wars.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

> > @Inoki.6048 said:

> > The amount of condi is ridiculous. Just terrible. Condi is supposed to weaken, not insta-kill like a D/P thief.

>

> Wut? No one likes to be insta-killed... ._.

 

Actually ANet stated condis were seted to be equal (maybe better) to power, conditions being used for pressure and weaken is a thing from gw1, on gw2 u need to be carried or children cry if they need to make effort on offensive.

 

If balance was the only problem..... ANet have made the game with so bright stuff and the spam make players need to play with sunglasses.... *lots of visual polution*

Mostly WvW fights are a white light on the screen from minimal settings to max settings...