Flag DPS-Meter user in the game

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> I am not a laywyer, so let's have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive and not into the law , but still a bit more precise in terminologie:

> Wiki: "Personal data are defined as "any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ("data subject"); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;" (art. 2 a).

> This definition is meant to be very broad. Data are "personal data" when someone is able to link the information to a person, even if the person holding the data cannot make this link. Some examples of "personal data" are: address, credit card number, bank statements, criminal record, etc."

>

> "Combat data is not a personal identifier" of course not, and I never claimed that.

> But "Dayra.7405" is a personal identifier, and it is that, even if **you** cannot resolve it. It's sufficient that **someone** can (I.e. ANet)

> With that Dayra.7405 is very similar to my credit card or account number: an identifier given to me by an company.

>

> That's Personally identifiable information (PII), but "personal data" is not limited to PII, but Personal Data includes:

> "any information **relating** to an identified or **identifiable** natural person"

> As Dayra.7405 is potentially identifiable, combat data is personal data (but not PII) as it is related to Dayra.7405 (or my char.name which is related to Dayra.7405 via friend/block-List).

>

> Now for the "processing of Personal Data":

> Wiki: "Personal data may be processed only insofar as it is adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are collected and/or further processed. "

> I agree that my combat data need to be processed to calculate damage on my target, I also agree that this can be comunicated to my target in PvP.

>

> **I think it is excessive to publish my personal data such that 3rd parties can do further calculations.**

 

Wikipedia isn’t a good source to quote see above comments for the actual definitions pulled from the GDPR since that’s main law you cited originally, and by their definition a Display name and Combat data are not personal data, but hey pesky facts amirite?

[Dayra.7405]

I looked up some german law sources before, that said similar things. but for english I don't like to dig deeper than wkipedia. Anyhow we are not at court, and I am sure ANet has laywers to check that more seriously than by looking up wikipedia ;)

[Sarpan.9074]

I can't figure out if OP is trolling or simply extremely paranoid.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> I looked up some german law sources before, that said similar things. but for english I don't like to dig deeper than wkipedia. Anyhow we are not at court, and I am shure ANet has laywers to check that more seriously than by looking up wikipedia ;)

 

 

Here’s the definition from the GDPR legal document

 

personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

 

Since a player can not connect your Display Name from gw2 To your natural person as outlined in the GDPR legal definition then it is not Personal Data, pretty cut and dry.

[meowtier.1364]

Also it's definitely a reach to say that people can/will decide anything about your personality based on numbers in a video games. Your capability to play your build in that specific encounter? Yeah sure but you can also decide that based on how someone is doing in a fight in general. But.. those numbers alone most likely are not being used to figure how what kind of person you are.

 

Also how you act in game when you speak in various chats, how you reply to people, how you react to things are being used more to determine your personality than some public game data.

[Dayra.7405]

Thanks for the legal text.

Dayra.7405 is clearly an "online identifier" as explicitly enumerated in the text you quoted.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> Thanks for the legal text.

> Dayra.7405 is clearly an "online identifier" as explicitly enumerated in the text you quoted.

 

Again, people don't have to parse your damage to view a GW2 handle.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> Thanks for the legal text.

> Dayra.7405 is clearly an "online identifier" as explicitly enumerated in the text you quoted.

 

It helps if you read the whole sentence, here let’s isolate the Sentence.

 

an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

 

Can a player use your Gw2 Display Name identify your name, address,or physical, psychological,mental or economic data? No?

 

Oh wait, a player can’t identify your natural person based on your Gw2 Display Name.

 

.#rc

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > privacy or not, being able to see who has a DPS meter on would already help tons and lowers frustration.

> >

> > Would it? It seems to me that all it does is increase toxicity. Since the vast majority of players using a dps meter rarely bother to mention it, and the purpose of this change is explicitly to exclude players who use them, it's hard to imagine any other outcome.

>

> i can simply avoid ppl instead of being kicked 20X over or flamed by ppl because "reasons"

 

You'll likely have to get used to specifying which type of player you are. ...which you could be doing right now. No flag necessary.

[Dayra.7405]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Oh wait, a player can’t identify your natural person based on your Gw2 Display Name.

 

That why the text contains „indirectly“ it is sufficient that **someone** can (I.e ANet).

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Oh wait, a player can’t identify your natural person based on your Gw2 Display Name.

>

> That why the text contains „indirectly“ it is sufficient that **someone** can (I.e ANet).

 

As a player and forum member you agreed that Anet has access to your Personal Data, Anet agrees not to share or divulge that Personal Data, and there isn’t any way a Player can obtain that data or connect your Gw2 Display Name to that data, so players utilizing combat data and your display name is in no form personal data, since a player cannot directly or indirectly link you to that information.

 

[Dayra.7405]

Let’s stop that pointless discussion and wait for the conclusions ANet (or it lawyers) draw with respect to this matter.

 

A more interesting questions to be discussed in the forum would be:

 

Why do DPS-Meter users are against this flag? It would clearly help me to stay away from them which is exactly the reason why they use a DPS-Meter with my data. It is just much less stress to see that from the beginning than after several minutes of common party.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

They already have decided on the matter, hence why combat meters are still allowed.

 

Sorry that certain people don’t like the facts of the matter but everything is done properly by the current and pending laws.

[Sarpan.9074]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> Let’s stop that pointless discussion and wait for the conclusions ANet (or it lawyers) draw with respect to this matter.

 

So, once facts are presented that show your concerns are unfounded, you want to stop the "pointless" discussion which, BTW, you started.

[DarthFurby.3970]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > Oh wait, a player can’t identify your natural person based on your Gw2 Display Name.

>

> That why the text contains „indirectly“ it is sufficient that **someone** can (I.e ANet).

 

So just to be clear you want ANet to disallow people from using dps meter because that information is linked to what you believe is personal identifying information which only they have access to?

 

So you don't see any issue there? A player can't use your dps to identify you, and if it is separated from your in game name, neither can ANet. They can use purely your in game name to do that, and you signed their ToS so you gave them that access. ANet also won't release that information to any player, so your "identity" is safe. The same way your bank or credit card company won't to other users of their service.

 

This has nothing to do with your damage being able to identify you (because as shown that isn't possible), you just don't want people knowing how hard you are, or aren't hitting mobs.

[Miko.4158]

why do think only name and address is personal data?

its profiling, its meta data, and it just gets linked to an individual.

alot of these examples are assumptions off forums, if you join a public forum then consent is granted.

very different from taking data off someone else.

the point on dps meters its intrusive. the legal examples on this thread which were invoked to say its not illegal are washy at best.

its third party so its not covered by the t+Cs of the game.

nor have I seen anything from GW2 saying you can collect other peoples data.

if they publish data its anonymised, and not linked to an individual.

if you whisper someone their dps, and abuse its shaky ground.

if someone did it to me I'd report them .

I suggest other people do the same. atleast that way GW2 can sort it out.

personally I'd like to see it integrated into the game so people have a choice, I cant see doing it by stealth is ethical.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> why do think only name and address is personal data?

> its profiling, its meta data, and it just gets linked to an individual.

> alot of these examples are assumptions off forums, if you join a public forum then consent is granted.

> very different from taking data off someone else.

> the point on dps meters its intrusive. the legal examples on this thread which were invoked to say its not illegal are washy at best.

> its third party so its not covered by the t+Cs of the game.

> nor have I seen anything from GW2 saying you can collect other peoples data.

> if they publish data its anonymised, and not linked to an individual.

> if you whisper someone their dps, and abuse its shaky ground.

> if someone did it to me I'd report them .

> I suggest other people do the same. atleast that way GW2 can sort it out.

> personally I'd like to see it integrated into the game so people have a choice, I cant see doing it by stealth is ethical.

>

 

As stated by Anet all Combat Data is public data that simulated and generated by Anet’s Servers not by any individual player, and under the GDPR a Gw2 Display Name falls under pseudonymisation here the GDPR definition as such.

 

pseudonymisation’ means the processing of personal data in such a manner that the personal data can no longer be attributed to a specific data subject without the use of additional information, provided that such additional information is kept separately and is subject to technical and organisational measures to ensure that the personal data are not attributed to an identified or identifiable natural person;

 

Since no player can use a Display name to identify the natural person of another player it is not Personal Data, and the GDPR already went in depth on what the definition of Personal Data is. And combat data can not be used by a player to identify a natural person and neither can A Display Name.

 

Actually reading the laws and regulations helps in understanding what’s being discussed

 

.#rc

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> the point on dps meters its intrusive. the legal examples on this thread which were invoked to say its not illegal are washy at best.

 

DPS meters read my own computer's memory so technically it's all data on MY computer, it's not like I'm stealing data from you or invading your own personal space, it's data available on my own hardware and honestly other players have no business to tell me what to do with my own hardware.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> I am not a laywyer, so let's have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive and not into the law , but still a bit more precise in terminologie:

> Wiki: "Personal data are defined as "any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ("data subject"); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;" (art. 2 a).

> This definition is meant to be very broad. Data are "personal data" when someone is able to link the information to a person, even if the person holding the data cannot make this link. Some examples of "personal data" are: address, credit card number, bank statements, criminal record, etc."

>

> "Combat data is not a personal identifier" of course not, and I never claimed that.

> But "Dayra.7405" is a personal identifier, and it is that, even if **you** cannot resolve it. It's sufficient that **someone** can (I.e. ANet)

> With that Dayra.7405 is very similar to my credit card or account number: an identifier given to me by an company.

>

> That's Personally identifiable information (PII), but "personal data" is not limited to PII, but Personal Data includes:

> "any information **relating** to an identified or **identifiable** natural person"

> As Dayra.7405 is potentially identifiable, combat data is personal data (but not PII) as it is related to Dayra.7405 (or my char.name which is related to Dayra.7405 via friend/block-List).

>

> I think combat data is even sensitive personal data (as grades at school) as its processing allows to draw conclusions about my capabilities and personality.

>

> Now for the "processing of Personal Data":

> Wiki: "Personal data may be processed only insofar as it is adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are collected and/or further processed. "

> I agree that my combat data need to be processed to calculate damage on my target, I also agree that this can be comunicated to my target in PvP.

>

> **I think it is excessive to publish my personal data such that 3rd parties can do further calculations.**

 

 

 

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> why do think only name and address is personal data?

> its profiling, its meta data, and it just gets linked to an individual.

> alot of these examples are assumptions off forums, if you join a public forum then consent is granted.

> very different from taking data off someone else.

> the point on dps meters its intrusive. the legal examples on this thread which were invoked to say its not illegal are washy at best.

> its third party so its not covered by the t+Cs of the game.

> nor have I seen anything from GW2 saying you can collect other peoples data.

> if they publish data its anonymised, and not linked to an individual.

> if you whisper someone their dps, and abuse its shaky ground.

> if someone did it to me I'd report them .

> I suggest other people do the same. atleast that way GW2 can sort it out.

> personally I'd like to see it integrated into the game so people have a choice, I cant see doing it by stealth is ethical.

>

 

I think i lost neurons reading these.

 

You account names are publishing nothing about your personal information to the other players. Only Anet can identify you using your account and they can do this legally cause it is essential for running their business. It would only be an issue if Anet published your data to other players (or gave any info that would make it possible for someone to identify you using your account name). As long as it is under wraps it is cool.

 

Combat data have nothing to do with your account´s personal information. As per your example with the grades. The grade can be publicly known to anyone as long as they are not linked to an identifier that the public can use to know which grade is for which specific individual. For example a professor cannot put out a list with the grade results for his course with actual names on the list. But he can put out a grade list with the grades linked to the student registration number as long as the number can only be known by the respective student. That way the student can identify himself and his grade but others cannot. It the same thing with account names and the DPS results. I can see your account name and your DPS but cannot know who your are unless i hack Anet servers.

 

EDIT: Please do not send reports for this. Do not bog down support on useless stuff when they are already overworked with actual matters.

[Miko.4158]

this comes up at work loads, and I've done a fair amount of law.

I've also quoted the data protection act 1998.

you are safest at aggregated or stats even though the money is at lower levels profiling.

this goes foe everything, say I have a security camera outside my shop, put up a sign you are being recorded.

then watch it and cut up the stats into male female etc. footfall and advertising etc is worth money

at the individual level its shady ground.

law once again:

The definition of personal data is data relating to a living individual who can be identified

 

from that data.

 

not to say it doesn't happen all the time.

but saying its simple or 'I am the definitive expert' is balls.

and completely underestimates the issue. data has grown faster than legislation.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> this comes up at work loads, and I've done a fair amount of law.

> I've also quoted the data protection act 1998.

> you are safest at aggregated or stats even though the money is at lower levels profiling.

> this goes foe everything, say I have a security camera outside my shop, put up a sign you are being recorded.

> then watch it and cut up the stats into male female etc. footfall and advertising etc is worth money

> at the individual level its shady ground.

> law once again:

> The definition of personal data is data relating to a living individual who can be identified

>

> from that data.

>

> not to say it doesn't happen all the time.

> but saying its simple or 'I am the definitive expert' is balls.

> and completely underestimates the issue. data has grown faster than legislation.

>

 

And by the Gw2 Display Name a Player cannot personally Identity another player, since there is no available connection between display name and that natural person, Anet ensures that.

[Miko.4158]

its the individual that is protected not the 'named person'. apologies I feel very strongly on this -not the dps meter.

imagine next to my 'video survaliance shop', you bought something at 17:00 at say a bakers.

they then bought the the video tapes unaggregated but anonymised.

they compare the times, they match the inividual

they have your name (or acc number or delivery address) and now know where you've been. (not just their shop but the street)

now pretend the cameras wasn't a shop but the underground/metro.

suddenly any shop you've been 2 in 4 square miles can match it with every journey you've had in the last 3 years.

swap the trains and shops for the internet and you see the problem.

 

its a mess, I think you will see adverts specific to you/your phone by gis (map location) and time and even credit rating rating spammed at you within ten years.

but the horse trading on profiling is now

 

 

[Voltekka.2375]

The topic went from "i cant dps and others know it, darnit" to "people will know in real life who i am from doing 1k dps cause my handle is Mcfartyface.1234"

 

Killed logic.

[evilsofa.7296]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > This is one of those things that bothers me about Anets stance on meters: it is counter-intuitive to how they act everywhere else.

> > >

> >

> > What's your stance on the topic of the thread, to flag players that use dps meters?

> >

>

> I'd like it. One of the things that I don't like about hidden meters is the ever-present fear that I'm constantly being judged. I've practiced my rotations and I can DPS with the best of them (except for mesmer builds, for some odd reason), but I don't like how I have to go full tryhard all the time. I'm very sick, and I'm getting old. Sometimes, I don't want to be at my best. Sometimes, I can't be at my best. I just want to be "good enough".

 

If you don't like being judged, then you definitely don't want Anet to be flagging you, which is what will inevitably occur once a flagging mechanism gets put into the game.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> And by the Gw2 Display Name a Player cannot personally Identity another player, since there is no available connection between display name and that natural person, Anet ensures that.

 

It cannot directly identify another player; as I think I already noted in this thread, it is a short step from my account name (easily accessible given a display name) to my real name, employer, and work history. From there it is not much further to additional identifying information.

 

While I don't believe that the GDPR or other data privacy regulation is relevant here, your statement is "technically correct", and practically incorrect in at least some cases. Overall, I believe it is a weak argument in support of your position, and would encourage you to restate your view (and mine) in other terms. :)