Ayakaru.6583 Posted May 6, 2018 Author Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > Just that the number of toes seems to differ from picture to picture, and his 3d model in gw2 seems to have the Mursaat toes. But experience shows not everything even shown in game is canon. Plus flesh sculpting on his own body seems possible. > > Let's remind you that the Enchanted of the Crystal Desert have Mursaat toes... He could be from the same race that the Enchanted Armors came from. > > those aren't a race, though, they're constructs, like the Mursaat's Jade, and Shiro's machinations. we've pretty much proven already Joko can't be a mursaat, since the eye dissapated, with him still existing. But I also strongly doubt that Joko is a construct, considering he has a free will, and a 'fleshy' body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said: > > @"Ayakaru.6583" said: > > Just that the number of toes seems to differ from picture to picture, and his 3d model in gw2 seems to have the Mursaat toes. But experience shows not everything even shown in game is canon. Plus flesh sculpting on his own body seems possible. > > Let's remind you that the Enchanted of the Crystal Desert have Mursaat toes... He could be from the same race that the Enchanted Armors came from. The Enchanted Armors are predecessors of the Exalted's similarly name [Enchanted Armor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enchanted_Armor). IIRC, there is also dialogue in Tarir that said the Exalted's form were derived from the Enchanted Armor constructs of the Forgotten. The only relation they hold to mursaat is this: > III. We mursaat and the Forgotten forged armies of powerful constructs to destroy the dragons. > > IV. We assaulted Zhaitan with our army of jade constructs and enchanted armors. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mursaat_Lore_Tablet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings. Still doesn't mean he wasn't a king and doesn't mean he wasn't human. No one has made the claim he isn't human. No one has said he wasn't king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something. > > > > When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion. > > Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact. > > The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah. Doesn’t the statue even mention the suspiciousness of this when you click on it? It clearly seemed like an intentional hint to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings. > > Still doesn't mean he wasn't a king and doesn't mean he wasn't human. No one has made the claim he isn't human. No one has said he wasn't king. Well, yes, he was a king... because he is a king now, and was an undead king of the Desolation during his first attempt at conquering Elona 200 years before GW1. However, the Primeval King and Queens met during Hallowed Ground rather do explicitly state that Joko was no king in their dynasty, which is what he claims. No one ever made a claim that Joko was a non-Primeval King king prior to undeath. And no one ever claimed he wasn't non-human because one's species tends to be an obvious thing when one looks at a person. Your argument here basically amounts to "no one says Logan Thackeray wasn't a charr, so maybe he is a charr!" Kind of seems... stupid, don't think you? > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something. > > > > > > When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion. > > > > Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact. > > > > The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah. > > Doesn’t the statue even mention the suspiciousness of this when you click on it? It clearly seemed like an intentional hint to me. > Possible. Or it could be something they placed as a "just in case we want to go this story route" because they didn't have things solidified for what they were going to do in Episodes 3+ yet (which they most likely didn't, in regards to specifics, given Episode 2 changed pretty drastically). Or it was an intentional red herring to draw players' attention to it and they never had plans to bring it up ever again. Or there was an intended story to be told within Daybreak, which got scrapped last minute due to xyz restraints. Lots of possibilities, all be told, so I'm not sure how meritable the PC stating "I wonder why the statue was destroyed but the plaque wasn't" is for it being an intentional hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings. > > > > Still doesn't mean he wasn't a king and doesn't mean he wasn't human. No one has made the claim he isn't human. No one has said he wasn't king. > > Well, yes, he was a king... because he is a king now, and was an undead king of the Desolation during his first attempt at conquering Elona 200 years before GW1. > > However, the Primeval King and Queens met during Hallowed Ground rather do explicitly state that Joko was no king in their dynasty, which is what he claims. > > No one ever made a claim that Joko was a non-Primeval King king prior to undeath. > > And no one ever claimed he wasn't non-human because one's species tends to be an obvious thing when one looks at a person. > > Your argument here basically amounts to "no one says Logan Thackeray wasn't a charr, so maybe he is a charr!" Kind of seems... stupid, don't think you? > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something. > > > > > > > > When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion. > > > > > > Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact. > > > > > > The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah. > > > > Doesn’t the statue even mention the suspiciousness of this when you click on it? It clearly seemed like an intentional hint to me. > > > > Possible. Or it could be something they placed as a "just in case we want to go this story route" because they didn't have things solidified for what they were going to do in Episodes 3+ yet (which they most likely didn't, in regards to specifics, given Episode 2 changed pretty drastically). Or it was an intentional red herring to draw players' attention to it and they never had plans to bring it up ever again. Or there was an intended story to be told within Daybreak, which got scrapped last minute due to xyz restraints. Lots of possibilities, all be told, so I'm not sure how meritable the PC stating "I wonder why the statue was destroyed but the plaque wasn't" is for it being an intentional hint. I understand that the twins have a huge connection to the city as they once resided there, it just seems rather out of place within the story mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I understand that the twins have a huge connection to the city as they once resided there, it just seems rather out of place within the story mission. It seems out of place for a story mission taking place in ancient ruins of a city to feature some ambient objects that depict/describe the final ruler(s) of that city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > I understand that the twins have a huge connection to the city as they once resided there, it just seems rather out of place within the story mission. > > It seems out of place for a story mission taking place in ancient ruins of a city to feature some ambient objects that depict/describe the final ruler(s) of that city? Yeah because they make no mention of Nahlah, which is strange since they were twin rulers. It would have made more sense for there to be two statues and maybe one plaque, describing both, but they don’t. We don’t see any other statues of the Primeval Kings either. Again it seems very strange to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings. > > > > Still doesn't mean he wasn't a king and doesn't mean he wasn't human. No one has made the claim he isn't human. No one has said he wasn't king. > > Well, yes, he was a king... because he is a king now, and was an undead king of the Desolation during his first attempt at conquering Elona 200 years before GW1. > > However, the Primeval King and Queens met during Hallowed Ground rather do explicitly state that Joko was no king in their dynasty, which is what he claims. > > No one ever made a claim that Joko was a non-Primeval King king prior to undeath. > > And no one ever claimed he wasn't non-human because one's species tends to be an obvious thing when one looks at a person. > > Your argument here basically amounts to "no one says Logan Thackeray wasn't a charr, so maybe he is a charr!" Kind of seems... stupid, don't think you? > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something. > > > > > > > > When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion. > > > > > > Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact. > > > > > > The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah. > > > > Doesn’t the statue even mention the suspiciousness of this when you click on it? It clearly seemed like an intentional hint to me. > > > > Possible. Or it could be something they placed as a "just in case we want to go this story route" because they didn't have things solidified for what they were going to do in Episodes 3+ yet (which they most likely didn't, in regards to specifics, given Episode 2 changed pretty drastically). Or it was an intentional red herring to draw players' attention to it and they never had plans to bring it up ever again. Or there was an intended story to be told within Daybreak, which got scrapped last minute due to xyz restraints. Lots of possibilities, all be told, so I'm not sure how meritable the PC stating "I wonder why the statue was destroyed but the plaque wasn't" is for it being an intentional hint. Your analogy to Logan may be correct but only if you can show me here Logan claims to have ruled a char kingdom. Your analogy makes no sense. Please show me where it is denied that Joko was a king. Yes, he wasn't part of the dynasty. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a king. There are countries with multiple dynasties through out history. Are you claiming that only one dynasty was the true ruler of any of these kingdoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > Rather than "don't trust anyone that could tell us" it'd be more of "find a reliable source". Also, being a Primeval King means being part of the dynasty, and Joko specifically claims he is the last of the Primeval Kings. > > > > > > Still doesn't mean he wasn't a king and doesn't mean he wasn't human. No one has made the claim he isn't human. No one has said he wasn't king. > > > > Well, yes, he was a king... because he is a king now, and was an undead king of the Desolation during his first attempt at conquering Elona 200 years before GW1. > > > > However, the Primeval King and Queens met during Hallowed Ground rather do explicitly state that Joko was no king in their dynasty, which is what he claims. > > > > No one ever made a claim that Joko was a non-Primeval King king prior to undeath. > > > > And no one ever claimed he wasn't non-human because one's species tends to be an obvious thing when one looks at a person. > > > > Your argument here basically amounts to "no one says Logan Thackeray wasn't a charr, so maybe he is a charr!" Kind of seems... stupid, don't think you? > > > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > Maybe destroyed by Joko? This statue seems to be hinting at something. > > > > > > > > > > When the Scarab Plague hit, Dahlah and Nahlah were blamed for it and Elonians believed the two cursed (honestly it's a bit of a surprise they're buried in the Tomb of Primeval Kings TBH). It would be very likely that it was destroyed when the Scarab Plague had struck. Not to mention that it's been nearly a thousand years since Fahranur was first abandoned, it would be a bit more surprising statues survived in tact all that time rather than being destroyed - just because it was destroyed doesn't mean what destroyed it was a person and not erosion. > > > > > > > > Yeah, I think it makes mention the statue being crumbled but for some reason the plaque has remained intact. > > > > > > > > The plaque too is odd as it only mentions Dahlah and not Nahlah, and yet says daughters in the line below. It just seems odd to have only one statue there of Dahlah and nothing of Nahlah. > > > > > > Doesn’t the statue even mention the suspiciousness of this when you click on it? It clearly seemed like an intentional hint to me. > > > > > > > Possible. Or it could be something they placed as a "just in case we want to go this story route" because they didn't have things solidified for what they were going to do in Episodes 3+ yet (which they most likely didn't, in regards to specifics, given Episode 2 changed pretty drastically). Or it was an intentional red herring to draw players' attention to it and they never had plans to bring it up ever again. Or there was an intended story to be told within Daybreak, which got scrapped last minute due to xyz restraints. Lots of possibilities, all be told, so I'm not sure how meritable the PC stating "I wonder why the statue was destroyed but the plaque wasn't" is for it being an intentional hint. > > Your analogy to Logan may be correct but only if you can show me here Logan claims to have ruled a char kingdom. Your analogy makes no sense. Please show me where it is denied that Joko was a king. Yes, he wasn't part of the dynasty. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a king. There are countries with multiple dynasties through out history. Are you claiming that only one dynasty was the true ruler of any of these kingdoms. I think the only evidence is the primevil ghosts saying he’s lying, as well as the text in Istan hideout implying that he is a fake. The Istan text was vague and broad. The ghosts could just be resentful. I don’t think he was ever really a king though. Maybe he was the lover of one of the two sisters that were thought to be responsible for the scarab plague? No clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > Please show me where it is denied that Joko was a king. Yes, he wasn't part of the dynasty. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a king. There are countries with multiple dynasties through out history. Are you claiming that only one dynasty was the true ruler of any of these kingdoms. Actually, yes, for Elona there was only one dynasty at a time. In fact, there were only three dynasties ever: Primeval, Great, and Shattered. Joko claims to be of the king of the Primeval Dynasty - ergo, a Primeval King. The Primeval Kings' ghosts, on the other hand, claim he was not (as I have stated time and time again). Joko does **NOT** claim to be from the Great Dynasty, and the Shattered Dynasty was full of what has been nicknamed "Pretender Kings" - people who proclaimed traced lineages to either the Primeval or Great Dynasty royalties. The legitimacy of their heritage was rarely if ever verified. This is part of why I say it's likely Joko was alive during the Shattered Dynasty Era and was one of those many Pretender Kings, as his claims are exactly like theirs. I never said he wasn't a king (in fact, I've been saying he likely was - or attempted to be - just not of the Primeval Dynasty). I was saying that _Joko himself_ claims to be a Primeval King and that _the Primeval Kings say he wasn't_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apolus.3157 Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 Joko's actually a Mursaat who's actually Lyssa who's actually Queen Jenna who's actually a Primeval Queen who's actually the Commander who's actually Trahearne who's actually Mike Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted May 9, 2018 Share Posted May 9, 2018 > @"Apolus.3157" said: > Joko's actually a Mursaat > who's actually Lyssa > who's actually Queen Jenna > who's actually a Primeval Queen > who's actually the Commander > who's actually Trahearne > who's actually Mike Z Z for Zhaitan, Dragon of Undeath..... IT ALL FITS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeivu.3615 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Yeah, that is why the Eye of Janthir dissolved into nothingness when we killed the real Lazarus..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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