Aeolus.3615 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Orangensaft.7139" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > no it doesnt > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1 > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5 > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ... > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1 > > Yes and no, issue with gw2 casual combat design is that powercreep(reason why it is a casual game) is easilly achieved, and 5 vs 5 is even to much for the current skill design and damage output. The iteration process on how skills should work damageVS number of targets on this comany is really really bad, reason balance went out of the window long time ago, and since it is a casuall mmo, balance doesnt matter much, all that matter is to catter to players and make them feel strong within certain roles, reason some classes make players strong than others into a certain extent ofc, but it it to easy to be carried with damage output in this game, and personal skill is like 10% of a combat, wich is the reason why Gw2 pvp is known to be one of the worst pvp in mmo's. 1st rule is if u are into pvp avoid gw2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteor.3720 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Orangensaft.7139" said: > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > no it doesnt > > > > > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1 > > > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5 > > > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class > > > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage > > > > > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting > > > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ... > > > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1 > > > > > > > > > > **A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5.** > > Noooooope. Nope, nope, nope. > > Being able to 1v1 in the same capacity as a druid, holosmith, or spell breaker while also being able to disengage whenever things go south while also having the mobility to quickly cap, back cap, and claim objectives and +1 fights would be insane. You just described Mirage in one sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Meteor.3720" said: > You just described Mirage in one sentence. Kek, feelsbadman. @OP > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. They are. > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. It's not. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. Yes. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > No one cares about core mesmer. Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icy.2186 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 I want to add that balance and general good feeling of the game are not one thing. Imagine if we balanced every class at a point where everyone just 1shots. Would that be balanced? Pretty close to it. Would that be fun? Not really. My personal issue with "balance" right now is not how hard it is to win a 1v1 vs every class. Its how overpowering aspects of classes are. If you want to group fight scourge + support is just the most potent combination right now by miles. If you want to run fast thief is simply best by far. If you want to be aids mesmer is best by far etc. In my opinion perfect balance would be that every class has an average rating of 10 ( imagination here ), but it would be 8 on speed and 12 on health pool and 10 in damage. An assassin class would be 12 speed 12 damage but 6 health in return ( imagination here ). Does that mean that a slow class will ever catch up to the fast one? Fuck no. Is that equal opportunity to all? Not really. But its pretty close to that. When one class isnt 10 times better at 1v1 than the other because "thats just how things are" then of course you wont win, ever. But when the same class is only 2 times better in 1v1 then you have a considerable chance. Tl;dr : Perfect balance cannot really exist ( perfect 5v5 balance isnt perfect 1v1 balance ) and it shouldnt exist. The flavor of a class is that it is better at something than the other, it has a different playstyle that comes from that fact. BUT no class should be so much better than another at something, that there can never be competition. No class should be so far above in a certain aspect that individual skill cannot compensate and reach effectiveness. And that doesnt mean that if 1 mesmer lost to a renegade that one time 4 months ago that the classes / subspecs are close, comparable and that mesmer isnt absolutely overtuned compared to renegade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > Here's how I see it, > > **Balance does not mean:** *place some secret edge so that my favorite class ________ will have an advantage.* > The argument of "shaking up the meta" by making one class OP on a rotational basis has been clearly shown to be ineffective. > > **Balance does not mean:** *Make every class alike.* > The thinking seems to be: If every class has access to stealth or etc, then that ability is not OP. **This detracts from the game. It removes the "magic" of the various classes and styles when they are so similar.** > > **Balance does not mean:** *Make the situation such that we return to the "zerker" meta of a couple of years ago.* > My Thai Chi instructor insisted that I practice as slowly as possible. **Speed covers up poor technique and unskilled movement.** Speed covers up flaws, but it doesn't cure them. > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > **How this can be achieved:** *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > I could cite a specific example of personal bias, admitted on twitch, which led to the removal of a set of traits from the game. That change severely hampered a number of builds. > > > The lack of balance, and even deliberately unbalanced matches at times, has driven away players. Many of those are unlikely to try PvP again. Please, make the games even... I see this as a long term crisis in PvP. There is balance and there is design philosophy. What you/I/others see as important might not be important to the designers of the game. (Not saying this is or isn’t the case) This could also be correct or incorrect but again that is going to vary from individual to individual. For example if someone says there should not be balance around 1v1. Whether or not I agree or disagree this is just an opinion and there is an arguement for both sides. Balancing for the casual vs the esport pro is another example where opinions can differ. Balance should be objective, it usually isn’t and most of us posting on these forums have bias. How extreme we go to promote our class is another story. I also think the “grudge” is overstated, I care about my class(es) and give little thought to the others. The only time the others draw my attention is when they are vastly overpowered. I would assume most people are the same way. IMO the biggest thing people usually miss is whether or not something is fun. There are classes and specs that are completely miserable to play against. If the game is fun for 1-2 classes and miserable for the other 7-8 there is a problem. Honesty both from the players and devs would help. Lets be honest about the actual balance issues (not personal crusades) and things like power creep being real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Mesmer has S tier: 1. Damage 2. Survivability 3. Mobility 4. Utility Balanced? NOPE! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > @OP > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > They are. > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > It's not. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > Yes. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > I rephrased what I meant here: > Let me rephrase it this way: > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted May 4, 2018 Author Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > @OP > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > They are. > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > It's not. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > Yes. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > > > @OP > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. > > Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. My heart bleeds for all the shout heal support core warriors out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > > > > > @OP > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > > > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > > > > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. > > > > Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. > > My heart bleeds for all the shout heal support core warriors out there. Despite the sarcasm, I agree. Or the Altruistic healing "Commando" build Guardians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Revert the confusion condi change from a few months back and then we will achieve balance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > > > > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > > > > > > > @OP > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > > > > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > > > > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > > > > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > > > > > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > > > > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > > > > > > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. > > > > > > Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. > > > > My heart bleeds for all the shout heal support core warriors out there. > > Despite the sarcasm, I agree. Or the Altruistic healing "Commando" build Guardians. Step 1 of this game is making sure that you walk into the match with a good build and a role that'll contibute to winning. Every build in the game that's good is going to have a variety of bases covered and if it doesn't have all those bases it's going to get dumpstered. A lot of players are going to just put together awful poorly thought out builds. And that's on them. And it should get dumpstered. The most important thing is making sure there is a thriving metagame where every class has at least one build and role that fit into the meta. Every other additional viable build is frosting on the cake. Most things I want to see added to the meta-game are there purely because I It isn't unhealthy and bad for competative Pokemon that Butterfree and hundreds of other pokemon are garbage tier, or that all the not fully evolved pokemon aren't top tier by definition. Or that Yugioh and Magic the Gathering have billions of garbage cards. League of Legends has dozens of characters considered terrible, dozens considered average, and dozens considered straight up God Tier. Every successful fighting game has tier lists. What matters for these games is that the top level of play has a thriving meta game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > > > @OP > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. > > Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. Making every build viable is not possible in any game. There will always be the meta, the best anyone can hope for is one viable spec for each class. This also assumes the power levels of these specs are relatively close. That is balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choovanski.5462 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said: > > > > > You just described Mirage in one sentence. > > > > > > > > Kek, feelsbadman. > > > > > > > > @OP > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > I am proposing that the tanks be relatively slow **AS they are in just about every creditable RPG.** In this way, each class would have to play to it's strengths to win. > > > > > > > > They are. > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > There are a couple of problems though. *Historically, ANET has not done a good job of keeping the equivalence.* **Also and critically; The frickin tank guardian is ALSO highly mobile.** in a situation like that, the Guradian has a natural advantage from the start. > > > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > * Doing something with Bunker Chrono, specifically Chronophantasma. > > > > > * Might should not corrupt into Weakness. > > > > > * Throw reaper just a few bones. > > > > > * After that I'd like to see fresh air weaver get buffed. > > > > > * Ventari Rev, Tempest, and Scrapper should receive serious buffs to bring them onto Firebrand's level. > > > > > There's some meme stuff like Deadeyes and and 25k Worldly Impact Soulbeasts that aren't currently meta but should maybe get a look at just in case the balance changes makes them meta. > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > No one cares about core mesmer. > > > > > > > > Not true. There should still be a concerted effort to ensure mes remains viable at core. I agree with Ithilwen here. I think you're on track with the GS burst nerf, but only after we see what happens with the coming balancing to chrono specs. Portal should probably not be touched at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > *Personal biases, interpersonal relationships and especially any grudges need to be left out of the decision making process.* > > > > > > > > If any developers have a history of doing this. Please stop. You're playing with your paychecks. > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > I don't honestly believe the concept of "balance" is clearly understood. > > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > And I propose roughly the same. If a thief wins on mobility and a Guardian on taking , then they are *equivalent.* > > > > > > > > Do you see the contradiction/Irony here? You cannot balance for combat equality in 1v1 in this particular game, in conquest. The moment you do, the more mobile classes instantly become unbalanced. This is why people are so angry with mesmer, why thief constantly has its damaged shaved, and why people bristle at deadeye. > > > > > > > > Also several of the posters here need to learn to not directly attack individuals when responding to their threads. All it does is make persuasion more difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I rephrased what I meant here: > > > > > > > Let me rephrase it this way: > > > > > > > > Just because Ithilwen runs some awful meme core mesmer spec doesn't mean balance should revolve around their spec. I care about what's actually meta and the top tier of efficacy. Not people playing grabass in bronze. I genuinely find the "Core and both elite specializations need to be run in equal capacity in every area of the game" obsession that's rampant on this forum misguided and baffling. Not everything needs to be run in every area of the game. Stuff like Renegade probably shouldn't ever be meta in sPvP just from a design perspective. > > > > > > If we have a good meta but already nonviable builds end up being less viable that's perfectly fine with me. > > > > Ah, but that is one of my points. To have a spec be "nonviable" is the very definition of imbalance. That's just wrong. To make the imbalance worse, as suggested, is definitely not the right approach. > > My heart bleeds for all the shout heal support core warriors out there.  words cannot express how much i miss valk (old amulet with Power Vitality Healing Crit Damage) hammer with shouts. i could heal my team, clean condis, peel with hammer, burst with shield bash into sword 3 with intelligence sigils, & pop rampage in teamfights. this game used to be great :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson.2403 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Zlater.6789" said: > > Let me drop this here. When looking over this I get this feeling that the OP isn't talking about balancing from a higher level position, they are just stating their opinion on that micro level balancing. If you ever want to look at balancing in a way that doesn't only affect core mesmer, or the specific builds you like to play (your reputation is that rip), perhaps you should learn what is being discussed here. > > > > > > You also talked about being able to do a successful 1v1 ANY class. That's contradictory to another thing you said: > > "Balance does not mean: Make every class alike." > > Scourge for example is a terrible 1v1 class, HOWEVER if you examine the meta as it is right now, you will note that scourge so good at doing dps on mid that literally the whole meta is designed around it. Necro has never been a strong 1v1 class, it has never been good on sides and its place has usually always been on mid. Thats its thing, to make it a viable 1v1 would literally make the meta comp 4 or 5 scourges. > > FYI scourge isn't the only class that is like that, you could also take a guardian as a very good example, or thief as an example of a class who isn't so strong at the mid fight. Scourge is just a good example because it's so prominent in the current meta. > > > > Also stop replying multiple times to a single post, if you want to add something just edit a comment, there is no reason to troll that person, even if your opinion is different to thiers. > > Thumbs up for Extra Credits. Great video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delweyn.1309 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 balance is when the system don't put together 2 or 3 very weak player with 2 or 3 balanced good players - against a team of 5 balanced good players. It makes the 2 or 3 weak are nearly useless, die a lot and then snowball their team to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Orangensaft.7139" said: > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > no it doesnt > > > > > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1 > > > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5 > > > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class > > > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage > > > > > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting > > > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ... > > > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1 > > > > > > > > > > A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5. > > Also not true. > > Take for example, S/D thief and holosmith right now. 1v1, you've got about a 50/50 shot of winning if both are equally skilled (roughly, I'm generalizing ok?). > > But in teamfights? Whole different story. Holosmith has way more impact in teamfights than S/D thief, and that difference can snowball. Conversely, the thief has more mobility and can decap much more effectively than the holo. > > Likewise, something awful for 1v1 (IE Staff Ele, Scourge slowly heading this way) can have a tremendous impact on group fights when played well. > > ------- > > To the original point, balance does not mean equality either. Rock-paper-scissors is balanced, but definitely not equal. > > The trick to balance is that one class should not dominate hard over almost all others (as scourge did for some time, as mesmer has recently), nor should any class lose most matchups (IE rev, condi engineer). It's about reducing the number of outliers, but not necessarily removing their advantages or disadvantages. This is the truth about balance. Balance, and incidentally, "shaking up the meta" isn't best done by nerfing anyone! It's by buffing the counter-plays against the "meta" champions. And that's what true balance in a team game means, it means you can have overpowered builds and comps, but it's balanced if that overpowered build is easily canceled by another build (ie has a counter) That's why, regardless of the constant whinning that ended up making everything worse, nerfing scourge to uselessness in PvE, making it a meta-power in WvW (because the lag caused by their skills on other players is stronger than their actual effect on the fight), and pretty much left it untouched in PvP, was almost perfectly balanced at PoF launch. Sure there was a couple issues, primarly bugged interactions, and the one that still stays, Shades themselves have no interaction, they can't be countered. And having an immobile, non-interactive source of area damage in Conquest is the same as winning by default. But Scourge? as a whole? It was a **very** balanced class, it was surely very powerful, but it was very imobile and lacked range, CC and stun breaks. Which meant a good ranged class (like druid with perma roots at the time) could easily break a scourge. The problem was that, those counters were deemed "non-meta" and GW2 community isn't a competitive community, PvP is dominated by PvE-minded players that utilize PvP as a means to get more easy loot. So barely anyone bothered exploiting Scourge's weakness, since it's easier to win the fight by whining in the forums, and frankly, for most people winning or losing isn't really much of a bother, since they still get their Byzantine chest at the end. Most if not all actual competitive-minded players gave up on sPvP and GW2 a long time ago. I mean, if you're really into e-sports, there's so many genres and competitive e-sports out there, that why would anyone still care about a game which already got kicked out of ESL, and isn't anything close to a competitive game any more, if anything it's more and more anti-competitive. In a world where you have dozens of MOBA games, First-Person Shooters, Third Person Shooters, Hero Shooters, Battle Royale games, and a myriad of better balanced, more competitive and just better PvP games, why would anyone competitive-minded stick to GW2? I stopped dedicating time to sPvP a long time ago, and i have a surplus of shards of Glory that should last me for at least a couple more legendary weapons, which means, that, because i get my competitive "fix" elsewhere i won't have a reason to waste my time on sPvP any time soon. Because at this point, sPvP is more of a joke, and a waste of time better spent doing **anything** else in the game, at this point i've been more entertained by LA chat than a lot of sPvP matches, and it's a lot less frustrating, at least when someone is AFking in LA that's not hindering the entertainment factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"Orangensaft.7139" said: > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > **Balance means:** **Any given class, whether "elite" or not, has an equal chance going into a 1v1 against any other class.** > > > > > > > > no it doesnt > > > > > > > > The game is not balanced around 1 vs 1 > > > > The PvP part is balanced around 5 vs 5 > > > > and it is intended that you dont always have equal chance going into a 1v1 against *any* other class > > > > for eample: Class X usually has an advantage vs class Y but a disadvantage vs class Z - so you need to have a good rotation as a team to always be in fights where you have an advantage > > > > > > > > and shaking up the Meta doesnt mean making a new spec OP - it usually means nerfing the currently top builds a bit so players have to (have the chance to) come up with new builds to always keep fights interesting > > > > but OFC there will always be one build that is currently seen as the best one in the new current meta then ... > > > > and if it is truly OP then ofc Anet has to rebalance but they wont balance to make it 100% equal to every other class in 1vs1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A game that is balanced for all 1v1 combinations will also naturally be balanced 5v5. > > > > Also not true. > > > > Take for example, S/D thief and holosmith right now. 1v1, you've got about a 50/50 shot of winning if both are equally skilled (roughly, I'm generalizing ok?). > > > > But in teamfights? Whole different story. Holosmith has way more impact in teamfights than S/D thief, and that difference can snowball. Conversely, the thief has more mobility and can decap much more effectively than the holo. > > > > Likewise, something awful for 1v1 (IE Staff Ele, Scourge slowly heading this way) can have a tremendous impact on group fights when played well. > > > > ------- > > > > To the original point, balance does not mean equality either. Rock-paper-scissors is balanced, but definitely not equal. > > > > The trick to balance is that one class should not dominate hard over almost all others (as scourge did for some time, as mesmer has recently), nor should any class lose most matchups (IE rev, condi engineer). It's about reducing the number of outliers, but not necessarily removing their advantages or disadvantages. > > This is the truth about balance. > Balance, and incidentally, "shaking up the meta" isn't best done by nerfing anyone! It's by buffing the counter-plays against the "meta" champions. And that's what true balance in a team game means, it means you can have overpowered builds and comps, but it's balanced if that overpowered build is easily canceled by another build (ie has a counter) > That's why, regardless of the constant whinning that ended up making everything worse, nerfing scourge to uselessness in PvE, making it a meta-power in WvW (because the lag caused by their skills on other players is stronger than their actual effect on the fight), and pretty much left it untouched in PvP, was almost perfectly balanced at PoF launch. Sure there was a couple issues, primarly bugged interactions, and the one that still stays, Shades themselves have no interaction, they can't be countered. And having an immobile, non-interactive source of area damage in Conquest is the same as winning by default. > But Scourge? as a whole? It was a **very** balanced class, it was surely very powerful, but it was very imobile and lacked range, CC and stun breaks. Which meant a good ranged class (like druid with perma roots at the time) could easily break a scourge. > > The problem was that, those counters were deemed "non-meta" and GW2 community isn't a competitive community, PvP is dominated by PvE-minded players that utilize PvP as a means to get more easy loot. So barely anyone bothered exploiting Scourge's weakness, since it's easier to win the fight by whining in the forums, and frankly, for most people winning or losing isn't really much of a bother, since they still get their Byzantine chest at the end. > > Most if not all actual competitive-minded players gave up on sPvP and GW2 a long time ago. I mean, if you're really into e-sports, there's so many genres and competitive e-sports out there, that why would anyone still care about a game which already got kicked out of ESL, and isn't anything close to a competitive game any more, if anything it's more and more anti-competitive. > In a world where you have dozens of MOBA games, First-Person Shooters, Third Person Shooters, Hero Shooters, Battle Royale games, and a myriad of better balanced, more competitive and just better PvP games, why would anyone competitive-minded stick to GW2? > > I stopped dedicating time to sPvP a long time ago, and i have a surplus of shards of Glory that should last me for at least a couple more legendary weapons, which means, that, because i get my competitive "fix" elsewhere i won't have a reason to waste my time on sPvP any time soon. Because at this point, sPvP is more of a joke, and a waste of time better spent doing **anything** else in the game, at this point i've been more entertained by LA chat than a lot of sPvP matches, and it's a lot less frustrating, at least when someone is AFking in LA that's not hindering the entertainment factor. That's not what balance is. Balance is stability, equilibrium. Two overpowered builds just cancel each other out, they do _not_ balance a game. They destabilize it by increasing the damage and speed. Basically, powercreep. The thing is, I know how players think. I've been there. Players don't like their builds nerfed, so they come up with all kinds of excuses! Even if the nerf is for the good of the game. That's what balance is: give and take. Unfortunately, players have done a lot of taking and not enough giving! Were the balance up to me, I would rework and nerf stuff to the ground. Player reception be dam'd. They'll be salty for the time being, but they'll get a better game in return. Scourge is fundamentally broken by design due to instant shade mechanics and how they interact in conquest. The spec also has high condition damage and high sustain through barriers. I can also confidently say scourge is broken outside of conquest pvp because...wvw! The spec is strictly anti-melee and the so-called ranged counter loses out if that scourge _also_ has a druid supporting it. Whoa be you if that scourge is actually skilled. I'm sorry, but there is simply no defending scourge. As a spec, it either needs to be reworked or blown up entirely. It makes pvp much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted May 5, 2018 Author Share Posted May 5, 2018 With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. > > As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") > > This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. > > > ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. It's funny how quick you are to call for nerfs to classes that aren't mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. > > As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") > > This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. > > > ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. Not that it is a pvp (but class related) I’m seeing a lot of chrono bunker commanders in WvW but no scourge commanders. So weird, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. > > > > As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") > > > > This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. > > > > > > ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. > > Not that it is a pvp (but class related) I’m seeing a lot of chrono bunker commanders in WvW but no scourge commanders. So weird, right? Are these actual bunker chronos or pseudo pve boonshare chronos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted May 6, 2018 Author Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. > > > > As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") > > > > This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. > > > > > > ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. > > It's funny how quick you are to call for nerfs to classes that aren't mesmer. First, I am not calling for buffs out of dislike of necro. Second, I am significantly slower to call for nerfs than many of those asking that Mesmer be crushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icy.2186 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"JTGuevara.9018" said: > That's not what balance is. Balance is stability, equilibrium. Two overpowered builds just cancel each other out, they do _not_ balance a game. They destabilize it by increasing the damage and speed. Basically, powercreep. This this this this this. Speaking for me personally, i do not advocate for nerf to absolutely everything because i want my class at the top of the nerf pile. I advocate for general toning down because if we falsely "buff everything to fit" and balance that way, we end up with nothing but 1shot builds or literal permanent invulnerabilities to combat the 1shots. Classes can be "balanced" relative to each other but the game can STILL feel unhealthy and awful to play. Either because everything is too slow ( every class taking forever to kill every class ) or too fast ( 1shots left and right ) or maybe because every class is balanced to move at 1 meter a year and fights are nothing but standing in place and rotating dps. Is that fair? Yes. Is that fun? Not in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > With respect to Scourge. I see the basic problem as being large AOE. Any **mobile** AOE should be small to compensate. > > > > > > As a example of a proper condi AOE one could look at [Kirin's Wrath] from GW1.(https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kirin%27s_Wrath") > > > > > > This skill hit's foes *adjacent* which is to say just beyond melee range. This for a immobile AOE. By contrast, the Scorge AOE is **mobile** and covers an area that is about 1/2 *earshot* range. The difference in power is absolutely night and day. > > > > > > > > > ANET would do well to crank the AOE down to about adjacent range.. and that would still be a little too much. Touch range would be better, given that it's mobile. > > > > It's funny how quick you are to call for nerfs to classes that aren't mesmer. > > First, I am not calling for buffs out of dislike of necro. Second, I am significantly slower to call for nerfs than many of those asking that Mesmer be crushed. I mean you did make threads calling for holosmith, scourge and soulbeast nerfs about two and a half weeks after PoF released. That was less time then we've had to digest bunker chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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