Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Would have been cool if sylvari PCs got a completely different version of The Departure - perhaps one sending them to the Dream of Dreams instead of the Underworld. > Except another part of the Departure is talking to the entrapped Joko, which is absolutely necessary in order for the player to make sense of the subsequent story events. And putting Joko in the Dream of Dreams would make very little sense. We couldn't have Joko there himself, but the Dream is, to an extent, prophetic. We might have found something that indicated that he wasn't in Tyria, or even had a vision of us leading the Awakened a la [A Light In The Darkness](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness). That would, of course, leave the sylvari PC with no idea where Joko had wound up, but I'm okay with that. It doesn't really come up or matter in the later story, and it gives both branches something special to import. Similarly, even without the boneheaded taunting, Joko would still have motive for revenge later on when he returned and found out that his army had been hijacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOddOne.4387 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 Why should sylvari have gotten something different though? Wouldn't that cheapen the apparent power the God of Death has on, well, death? If a specific type of it. I think it's really quite interesting that Grenth has a claim, however temporarily, on souls that die in a specific manner. I like to imagine some kind of agreement with Raven in the case of norn that the Realm of the Lost is to help said norn find themselves again before being moved on to the Spirit. (I just like the image of Grenth and Raven bro'ing it up okay) Drawing the Gods away from being 'human only' is a good thing, as it reverses what ArenaNet did with GW2 in the first place - The Gods have never been 'human only' in the lore. If there were multiple playable races in GW1, there wouldn't have been 'Human Gods', just 'Gods'. I also find the idea of charr going there incredibly funny given their irreverence. Feels like karma. Having no faith in a magical universe where faith is quite tangibly a thing always struck me as ignorant. I apply the same logic to D&D or any universe with God-like beings that can be proven to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deatine.2498 Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 It's not that Charr think the gods don't exist, they just think gods suck and they won't be reigned by such a thing. That's why the Charr in the Domain of the Lost complains about being imprisoned. Which is technically true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donari.5237 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I've only skimmed the thread but I don't think anyone pointed out that one of the departed spirits you see, down in the cave where you first fight your ghost doppelgangers, is a sylvari. I remarked on it and took screenshots at my first time through, as did my friends who I helped out with the story instance later. So it's not just ANet ignoring the race of the player character, they specifically did put an npc dead sylvari in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 > @"PopeUrban.2578" said: > All religions are a lie except the current one necessary for plot development. Today, Human religion is fact. Next time we need another Asuran magitech machine to move the plot forward, it'll be the eternal alchemy again. Next time we need a character to permanently die again, it'll be Charr atheism. Or the alternate theory, all religions are the truth, or some variation of it. The Norn Spirits are real, they can be seen and interacted with and can become tangible. The Human Gods are most definitely real and two in particular have shaped large parts of Tyria's history now. The Dream of Dreams is definitely real. The Mists are real and there are certainly other worlds aside from Tyria separated by them. All the "religions" in Tyria have some aspect of truth to them, just none of them paint a complete picture. And it's not necessarily that the Charr are atheists... they believe the gods exist, they have proof of that, but that doesn't mean that they trust or are willing to follow them. It's like they say in the Discworld: “Most witches don't believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don't believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arden.7480 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Do the Elder Dragon have any Judgement or something, or better question: do they have souls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said: > > @"deatine.2498" said: > > Why would Sylvari and Modrem not have souls? Has it been mentioned somewhere? They are living, intelligent creatures, not undead bodies like Risen or crystalline structures like Branded. > > > > They are, but conversely, they're also manufactured on-demand by Mordremoth. For them to have souls either means that Mordremoth/the Pale Tree can make souls or that souls are automatically generated to fill suitable empty vessels, however those vessels are created. Either has major implications for what a soul actually _is_ in Guild Wars. > > That, combined with the fact that sylvari biology requires magic to function, left the general suspicion before PoF that sylvari/mordrem were more of plant elementals than truly living things. They're not manufactured though - they're grown like seeds or fruit on real plants. Each one develops inside a pod hanging from the Pale Tree and 'hatches'/'blooms'/'drops out' whatever when it's fully grown. If you look up at the point where you exit the Sylvari tutorial you can actually see some of the pods. In this case I think there's a huge difference between something that's manufactured and something grown, even grown for a purpose. A goat born on a farm is still a goat and still capable of doing everything a wild goat can. If a wild goat has a soul then so would a farm goat, even if it was bred and born to produce milk or meat. Admittedly we've only seen 1 sylvari not born from the Pale Tree and we have no way of knowing if he has a soul (other than assuming if other sylvari do then he probably does too), so we can't make the exact same comparison. But I don't think it's as simple as saying they're dragon minions and therefore created for a purpose and therefore don't have souls. It might actually vary for each type of minion, depending on how they're made. Risen seemingly don't have souls because they're born as something else, die and then become Risen and we already know that death in Tyria usually separates the soul from the body. But Icebrood and Branded might do because their conversion doesn't appear to involve killing them. They lose their free will (gradually for Icebrood - as shown by Sons of Svanir part-way through the conversion) and instantly for Branded (as shown by Almorra Soulkeeper's warband trying to kill her as soon as they turned) but they don't appear to die. But maybe the process of being converted kills them and the soul is separated from the body as normal when that happens. Sylvari are born sylvari, they don't need to change at all to become mordrem, although some did undergo a physical transformation. Which implies that the other mordrem, born from the Blighting Trees, might well have souls too. Destroyers are tricky though. As far as we know they're born as they are, not existing beings which get corrupted. But they appear to be made from rock and lava. Do they have souls? And if we go down that route what about elementals? No? Well how about Djinn which are intelligent elementals that show signs of having free will? Trouble is then we're into the grey area of "how do you define alive?" "How do you handle the edge cases?" "What constitutes sentience?" and that's a debate I've been having on and off for 20 years now, with both experts in various fields and laymen, without finding a clear answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Interesting discussion. The discussion about the human gods reminds me of Neil Gaiman's American Gods, where the Gods are shaped by the belief of their followers and thus vastly differentiate from region to region. I'm only for approx. four months, but aren't the humans of Tyria GW2's aliens, since they've been brought to Tyria by their Gods? Are the Gods native to Tyria or did they also come from the world from where they brought the humans? Since they were able to imprison Balthy in the Mists, the Mists and other stuff probably existed before the Gods came to Tyria. Maybe we should steer away from the concept of "creational" Gods and just regard them as beings with great power, who occupied certain parts of Tyria and its domains. Maybe the Underworld existed already before the Gods came and Grenth just gained a certain amount of control over that domain. The Gods probably gained control over other races through centuries of "passive belief". The discussion about Sylvari having souls reminds me of novels such as the Ender-Franchise by Orson Scott Card (you probably know the movie Ender's Game, but that was just a really superficial beginning of a franchise with a lot of philosophical depth) or I, Robot by Isaac Asimov. Both novels contain life-forms which gradually developed a Self and thus evolved. I'm on @"Danikat.8537" 's side here as to where "born" Sylvari have a soul and "manufactured" Sylvari do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"PopeUrban.2578" said: > > All religions are a lie except the current one necessary for plot development. Today, Human religion is fact. Next time we need another Asuran magitech machine to move the plot forward, it'll be the eternal alchemy again. Next time we need a character to permanently die again, it'll be Charr atheism. > > > Or the alternate theory, all religions are the truth, or some variation of it. The Norn Spirits are real, they can be seen and interacted with and can become tangible. The Human Gods are most definitely real and two in particular have shaped large parts of Tyria's history now. The Dream of Dreams is definitely real. The Mists are real and there are certainly other worlds aside from Tyria separated by them. All the "religions" in Tyria have some aspect of truth to them, just none of them paint a complete picture. And it's not necessarily that the Charr are atheists... they believe the gods exist, they have proof of that, but that doesn't mean that they trust or are willing to follow them. It's like they say in the Discworld: “Most witches don't believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don't believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman.” I agree that they all have truth to them, but what gets to me is that they're not all _relevant_. The asura worldview has been producing consistent results since the PS, and the sylvari approach was arguably the star of the PS, although it's fallen off dramatically since then. But the others? The Spirits of the Wild had a role to play in some of the early norn arcs, and a blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance in Orr. The last time the human gods were a beneficial influence, besides an identically minor role in Orr, was back in GW1. And the charr approach to gods has _never_ been explored or embraced by a central plotline. When one culture has been dominating the story for five years, what does it matter that the others are also technically true? > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said: > > > @"deatine.2498" said: > > > Why would Sylvari and Modrem not have souls? Has it been mentioned somewhere? They are living, intelligent creatures, not undead bodies like Risen or crystalline structures like Branded. > > > > > > > They are, but conversely, they're also manufactured on-demand by Mordremoth. For them to have souls either means that Mordremoth/the Pale Tree can make souls or that souls are automatically generated to fill suitable empty vessels, however those vessels are created. Either has major implications for what a soul actually _is_ in Guild Wars. > > > > That, combined with the fact that sylvari biology requires magic to function, left the general suspicion before PoF that sylvari/mordrem were more of plant elementals than truly living things. > > They're not manufactured though - they're grown like seeds or fruit on real plants. Each one develops inside a pod hanging from the Pale Tree and 'hatches'/'blooms'/'drops out' whatever when it's fully grown. If you look up at the point where you exit the Sylvari tutorial you can actually see some of the pods. > > In this case I think there's a huge difference between something that's manufactured and something grown, even grown for a purpose. A goat born on a farm is still a goat and still capable of doing everything a wild goat can. If a wild goat has a soul then so would a farm goat, even if it was bred and born to produce milk or meat. > > Admittedly we've only seen 1 sylvari not born from the Pale Tree and we have no way of knowing if he has a soul (other than assuming if other sylvari do then he probably does too), so we can't make the exact same comparison. But I don't think it's as simple as saying they're dragon minions and therefore created for a purpose and therefore don't have souls. All fair points... and that's kind of what I'm getting at when I talk about major implications. If sylvari have souls, and if sylvari are created the same way as mordrem, and if Mordremoth can create mordrem at will- all three premises that we now have good reason to believe are true- then it follows that Mordremoth, and perhaps other elder dragons, can create souls, or at least the conditions under which natural processes form a soul*. That is huge. It means that all those mordrem clones we cut down in droves might not just be mindless plant monsters, but qualify in a very meaningful way as people. What about the mordrem clones of Zojja and Logan? Did their souls, then, get cloned too, or do the clones have separate souls? If so, do they think of themselves as Logan and Zojja? And if _that's_ true, what actually sets them apart from the originals? Or, if the intelligent mordrem have souls, does that mean that the unintelligent ones, the wolves and teragriffs and saurians, do as well? And if _that's_ the case, aren't we back at wondering whether other nonsapient beings have a soul, however you happen to define non-sapient? Or, back to the spawning a number of clones at will- if souls can be created on-demand like that, what does it mean for what a soul actually is? Does it throw out the kodan theory of reincarnation, or prove the asura belief that souls are just another form of energy? What happens to a soul created by or for an elder dragon when they body dies? Do they get an afterlife? If so, are they freed from the dragon's influence, or is there a corner of the Mists out there somewhere overrun with ghostly mordrem still trying to fight and kill for their master? > *The one hiccup in this line of thought is the Dream. If, for instance, it turns out that souls are formed from the Mists, and that the Dream is a realm in the Mists, then the fact that sylvari have souls doesn't necessarily translate into the mordrem having the same. > @"Raizel.8175" said: >The Gods probably gained control over other races through centuries of "passive belief". I don't think so, if only because the other races quite firmly believe that those gods _don't_ have control over their afterlives. The norn believe in an underworld to some extent, but the say that Raven guides them there, and that their souls only remain immortal so long as they're remembered. The sylvari believe they return to the Dream, the asura seem to believe that they're recycled by the Eternal Alchemy, and the charr don't seem to claim any beliefs about what happens after death, but they most certainly don't think they're put at the mercy of their oldest enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 You know, after several months, you would think I'd stop trying to click where the old edit button used to be. But, here we are. >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai.3648 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Since I believe this to be a quite interesting topic, I think that I should point out that anet has been fairly consistent regarding souls for the most part. First of all, it seems that the only requirement for leaving a spirit after death is to be sentient, not even necessary sapient. The biggest support for this thesis stems from the animal spirits in the game, for example the Dolyak Spirits in Wildspine Hills. Of course, it can be argued that leaving a spirit does not automatically equals having a soul and that these two attributes to a being (having a soul and being able to leave an imprint in form of a spirit in the world) are independent from each other. This however opens a new can of worms, so I will just pretend having a soul to be a requirement of being able to leave a spirit for the sake of simplicity. Regarding religion: It doesn’t matter what the personal believes of a sapient creature are. This is quite obvious with the Asura and Charr in the story instance, but also was this way since GW1, as we can see at least one Charr (Garfaz Steelfur) who got tainted by Abaddon and got trapped in his domain. What however really caught my interest when reading the topic is this quote: > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > This is simply the first time we see sylvari confirmed to have souls. What's a curious question is how many sylvari, if not all, and how many other dragon minions also have their own souls? Further, if only sylvari have souls among dragon minions (as heavily implied by the risen, branded, and other cases), then why them? I would argue that there are multiple occasions hinting at the souls of elder dragon minions. We have met Zhaitan's undead who are mostly reanimated corpses, sometimes with souls bound to them. However, all of them were sapient to a certain extent, at least sentient. The fact that the minions continued existing without Zhaitan's Hivemind support proves that a) either not all sapient creatures having a soul being true, or b) elder dragon minions simply having a soul on their own. While most people chose to accept answer a), option b) was always on the table. The most interesting case however would be the destroyers, who are created from non-living material. Compared to the other minions, they lack sapient features, making them the most unbelievable ones to have souls. Unlike for example Zhaitan's undead who might have gotten some fracture of a soul from the former living whose body were used, Primordus minion creation process also includes nothing of that sort. This characteristic is also shared by the Sylvaris and Stevens (not in the game yet) minions, who both only need natural elements to be created. While it could be argued that plants in Tyria could carry something like a soul (the plants are stated to be at least sentient, as seen in GW1 trophies, there are a lot of plants walking around as sentient enemies, etc), this isn't the case for magma and stone. This heavily implies that if it were proven that destroyers have a soul, this soul must have either been actively created by Primordus or simply came into existence during the making of the destroyer. Now for the fun fact: It was in fact stated ingame that (at elast some) destroyers have a soul! The premise to the GW1 dungeon Slaver's Exile is that the dwarf ritualist (gw1 profession that dealt with spirits) Duncan the Black tried to "harness the power of the recently defeated Great Destroyer's **soul**" shortly after we killed it. One might argue that this might be outdated information, since it is basically a different game, or even bad wording, but since nothing indicates this to be the case and the newest development with Sylvari souls even supports the idea of elder dragon minions having souls, I would go with the simpler route and just say that for now the information we get from GW1 and 2 is coherent, which means I) that the writers haven’t messed up this part of the lore yet and II) that elder dragon minions do indeed have souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said: > Why should sylvari have gotten something different though? Wouldn't that cheapen the apparent power the God of Death has on, well, death? If a specific type of it. Every race already has their own afterlife. One of the lost souls in the Domain of the Lost is a charr who outright calls the place a *human* afterlife and is trying to escape on her own without the Judge's aid. So it makes perfect sense sylvari could end up elsewhere, double so given the whole questioning of whether or not sylvari have souls prior to The Departing. The Departing is very literally **the** first instance of a sylvari ghost seen or mentioned in the entirety of the game. The closest thing we've gotten elsewhere is memories of the Dream or echoes of the Mists. I think it's less that Grenth has 'power over all souls who died a specific way even if temporary' and more of 'the gods' departure and Balthazar/Joko messing with things kind of screwed things up so that non-humans end up in human area.' This, of course, isn't to say that the gods cannot influence non-human souls (we know they can based on Nightfall having charr souls in the Realm of Torment), but rather that there's enough order of things before recent events that there isn't a mixing. Honestly, it could have been just as cool if every race got their own version of the afterlife in The Departure, all with the same outcome of revival in some manner. > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said: > Drawing the Gods away from being 'human only' is a good thing, as it reverses what ArenaNet did with GW2 in the first place - The Gods have never been 'human only' in the lore. If there were multiple playable races in GW1, there wouldn't have been 'Human Gods', just 'Gods'. Well, technically, they kind of were even in GW1. We only ever had hints of three non-human races ever revering the Six Gods: Forgotten, centaurs, and naga. Centaurs was just one (latter multiple but still a handful) of examples, and this was largely reverted (though not by much given Nightfall) with their faith becoming "reverence of the land" over gods; and naga have never been proven even in GW1. Though there's also the Elonian legend of harpies, which has carried over to GW2 as well. And there was a church of Dwayna and church of Grenth within dwarven society, but they're gone. Beyond those examples, it definitely was "only human gods". Grawl, tengu, charr, yeti, giants, heket/hylek, and of course, norn and asura never showed any direct worship for the gods. Half showed the opposite - reverence for other faiths. > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said: > I also find the idea of charr going there incredibly funny given their irreverence. Feels like karma. Having no faith in a magical universe where faith is quite tangibly a thing always struck me as ignorant. I apply the same logic to D&D or any universe with God-like beings that can be proven to exist. It's not that charr have no faith. It's that they explicitly see beings greater than them not as something to bow to but something to overcome. They're not atheists - they know the gods exist - they're antitheists. > @"Danikat.8537" said: > They're not manufactured though - they're grown like seeds or fruit on real plants. Each one develops inside a pod hanging from the Pale Tree and 'hatches'/'blooms'/'drops out' whatever when it's fully grown. If you look up at the point where you exit the Sylvari tutorial you can actually see some of the pods. The very foundation of what defines a "dragon minion" is "corruption of other materials". Not grown. Mordrem - and by extension, sylvari - are not grown but corrupted plant matter which forms together in pods. That, to me, sounds like "manufacturing" on demand. > @"Danikat.8537" said: > Destroyers are tricky though. As far as we know they're born as they are, not existing beings which get corrupted. Destroyers are just corrupted rock and lava. Just as there are some icebrood that are corrupted ice, and some branded which are corrupted lightning, crystal, or soil. I doubt any of those have souls, simply because it's just mobile elements. Constructs, in effect. And constructs have been proven in the game to *not* have souls. Elementals are outright stated to be mindless, soulless husks just like dragon minions are. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > This is simply the first time we see sylvari confirmed to have souls. What's a curious question is how many sylvari, if not all, and how many other dragon minions also have their own souls? Further, if only sylvari have souls among dragon minions (as heavily implied by the risen, branded, and other cases), then why them? > > I would argue that there are multiple occasions hinting at the souls of elder dragon minions. We have met Zhaitan's undead who are mostly reanimated corpses, sometimes with souls bound to them. However, all of them were sapient to a certain extent, at least sentient. My latter post actually brings those up. Those risen are not "creatures with a soul" so much as they are "creatures with souls trapped within." The difference is that the soul does not belong to the risen - even if it did to the body which became the risen. In a similar manner, you would not consider a golem powered by a soul trapped in a powerstone, or a Shiro'ken which is powered by souls in Soul Stones, to be "creatures with a soul". In a similar, similar manner, you would not consider the Eater of Souls as being "a creature with many souls in its body" so much as it is "a creature which has trapped many souls". The main difference, in effect, being whether the soul is a power source / nutrition, or the sapience behind the movements of the body. Also, not all risen are sentient. This is rather a plot point about **all** elder dragon minions, in fact. The standard minion across all dragons are mindless grunts which unless commanded by a sapient minion, will simply be wandering / repeating a task endlessly until it encounters a non-minion, in which it shows immediate and unbridled violence and hostility. That latter being part of "the dragon's will". This is shown in full in Siren's Landing, where post-Elder Dragon death, the grunt minions have literally become to do nothing and cannot even use spells or fancy tricks like they used to, unless near a smarter minion which has retained its intelligence. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > The fact that the minions continued existing without Zhaitan's Hivemind support proves that a) either not all sapient creatures having a soul being true, or b) elder dragon minions simply having a soul on their own. While most people chose to accept answer a), option b) was always on the table. Or c) magical creatures do not require a soul to be mobile. Necromancer minions are a prime example of this, as well as elementals. Both are outright stated or obviously proven to be soulless. We even have [a recent raid boss fitting the former that is literally named "Soulless Horror"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulless_Horror). Dragon minions would fall under this category. > Now for the fun fact: It was in fact stated ingame that (at elast some) destroyers have a soul! The premise to the GW1 dungeon Slaver's Exile is that the dwarf ritualist (gw1 profession that dealt with spirits) Duncan the Black tried to "harness the power of the recently defeated Great Destroyer's **soul**" shortly after we killed it. One might argue that this might be outdated information, since it is basically a different game, or even bad wording, but since nothing indicates this to be the case and the newest development with Sylvari souls even supports the idea of elder dragon minions having souls, I would go with the simpler route and just say that for now the information we get from GW1 and 2 is coherent, which means I) that the writers haven’t messed up this part of the lore yet and II) that elder dragon minions do indeed have souls. You can attempt to do something that is impossible. To find something that doesn't exist. Doesn't mean that thing exists though. Keep in mind that line - full dialogue for the interested [here](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Last_Hierophant) - is from a norn. That is an in-universe line and ArenaNet has utilized the [unreliable narrator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator) since the days of Prophecies. This doesn't mean that norn, or Duncan the Black, were right and that the Great Destroyer had a soul. It meant that they believed it did. And given the fact that no one knew about the Elder Dragons or what dragon minions really were back then, it's not an unexpected belief. They thought that the Great Destroyer was a god-like being, after all. Who wouldn't think a being capable of killing gods that called itself its own master would have a soul? But they were wrong about what the Great Destroyer was, and they could have been wrong about it having a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I don't have time yet to properly contribute to this, but one thing I keep thinking about: why are we assuming that the ability to create a soul, or to create another living being with a soul is some kind of special power that only gods or god-like beings could have? If you believe souls exist in real life then it happens all the time. My niece and her partner have created two brand new humans _by accident_ and they're certainly not gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narcemus.1348 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 ^ This is very true. The creation of new souls is really a very simple process, able to be done by almost any opposite gendered pairing of same race beings in Tyria. Perhaps easy or simple wouldn't be a proper term, because trying to have a kid can be very trying, but it isn't insane to believe that if they decided to, some super powerful beings such as the elder dragons could make souls, should they desire. Seeing that non magical beings somehow have the capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 How could Sylvari NOT have souls? If we assume souls exist, then it is most likely every living thing has at least one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 A lot of it comes down to what you assume a soul is... and, like it or not, that's largely going to link back to an individual's real-world ideas, since ANet hasn't given us much to work with. On one end, there's the view Ardid and Danikat are advocating, that any being with a certain trait- sapience, or life, however you define those terms- has a soul, and that's all that really needs saying. Where souls come from or how they're made isn't really relevant to asking whether something has one, because you just need to check whether something's alive/sapient. It's not a perfect view, because of the edge cases, but take it a step further and you have an animistic belief that all things have spirits/souls, which neatly deals with the edge cases. At the other extreme is the notion that souls are something special and ineffable, something bestowed through divine intervention or as a mystery beyond mortal comprehension. In that case, it does matter where and why they come from. Generations of Western tradition have held that humans have souls, not because we're sapient, but because the Judeo-Christian God picked us to have souls. If we discovered tomorrow that dolphins are truly sapient, or that we'd created a sapient A.I., that tradition still wouldn't automatically assume that they had a soul. In Tyrian terms, knowing that the Six have influence over the fate of souls of all races, is it such a stretch to consider that they might also have control over their origins? Those two lines of thinking give very different ideas on what a soul is, what has a soul, and what it means to have a soul. Most relevantly right now, a view where some divine being makes souls, or where souls are a product of mysterious natural processes, would be inclined to believe that dragon minions don't have souls, as perversions of nature and known enemies to most beings that sapient races worship. Sylvari, likewise, being formed by processes very unlike typical procreation and not leaving any known ghosts, could quite easily not have souls according to those lines of thought. Now, that we have clear evidence that they do... like I keep saying, implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai.3648 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I definitely agree with the notion that the creation of souls can be seen as nothing special at all from an ethical standpoint. It’s the mind that matters, not the soul itself. What makes a soul special in GW2 however is the potential to create energy from it. This happened for example with soul batteries. Meaning that the creation of a soul does in fact provide a certain amount of energy. It is unknown if the souls differ in quality (thought implied through the chosen ones), but nevertheless this could in theory make the creation of souls into a rather interesting way to gain endless amounts of energy, if the creation progress consumed less energy than what can be gained from harvesting the freshly created soul. Keep in mind that in Tyria the laws of nature as we know them do not exist. Some act similar, but especially magic ignores them. Even now endless amounts of matter could exist in Tyria, as seen by the fact that the fractals can be farmed, creating matter from nothing. This in fact seems to be the consortiums goal, thought they probably care for the money created by this procedure firstly and only waste a second thought at the further potential of it (but they are still asura, so who knows?). The idea of creating endless amounts of energy is definitely not too farfetched. I also have to disagree with König here: > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > My latter post actually brings those up. Those risen are not "creatures with a soul" so much as they are "creatures with souls trapped within." > > The difference is that the soul does not belong to the risen - even if it did to the body which became the risen. In a similar manner, you would not consider a golem powered by a soul trapped in a powerstone, or a Shiro'ken which is powered by souls in Soul Stones, to be "creatures with a soul". In a similar, similar manner, you would not consider the Eater of Souls as being "a creature with many souls in its body" so much as it is "a creature which has trapped many souls". The main difference, in effect, being whether the soul is a power source / nutrition, or the sapience behind the movements of the body. > > Also, not all risen are sentient. This is rather a plot point about **all** elder dragon minions, in fact. The standard minion across all dragons are mindless grunts which unless commanded by a sapient minion, will simply be wandering / repeating a task endlessly until it encounters a non-minion, in which it shows immediate and unbridled violence and hostility. That latter being part of "the dragon's will". This is shown in full in Siren's Landing, where post-Elder Dragon death, the grunt minions have literally become to do nothing and cannot even use spells or fancy tricks like they used to, unless near a smarter minion which has retained its intelligence. I am afraid that even the risen in Sirens landing still do react to you damaging them, proving that they feel some pain that makes them react. Their maneuvers definitely exceed normal reflexes that could be seen as an automatic bodily response. That makes them sentient and as we have seen with the animal spirits, capable of having a soul. You also interpret them to be constructs that are merely powered by a soul, but you said yourself that not all of them have spirits attached to them. Leaving the question, when the soul is not with the risen, but the risen is powered by a soul – where does the soul come from? I provided a suitable answer to that in my first comment. > Necromancer minions are a prime example of this, as well as elementals. Both are outright stated or obviously proven to be soulless. We even have [a recent raid boss fitting the former that is literally named "Soulless Horror"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulless_Horror). Dragon minions would fall under this category. I have no idea why you would think that all dragon minions fall under this category. Would you mind explaining this to me in more detail? It is also weird to assume Elementals could not have souls, as Djinn are free-willed and sapient, comparable to what humans are to animals, as stated by devs. If the animals in Tyria can have souls, that would indicate that lesser elementals could also have one. Thought unimportant, I also believe it to be amusing that you point out the name of a raid boss as an example. This is a creature we know virtually nothing about, we simply assume it to be soulless because of its name the games provide us with. This can be seen as a game mechanic to avoid the endless use of names such as "mysterious creature", or "unknow species" (which are used sometimes for plots sake). I heavily doubt that the developers of the raid put much thought into the name of the boss, I am pretty sure the name was picked simply because it sounded epic enough and fitted the theme of the raid. Since you even mention the unreliable narrator as a rhetorical device later in your post, I couldn’t keep myself from smiling, as this seems to me like the perfect example of an indirect way to provide such an unreliable narrator: Ssuns, Blessed of Dwayna was probably not really blessed by Dwayna and I am pretty sure that the five cursed ones that could be found on Perdition Rock in GW1 were simply normal boss-variants of the Abominations and not personally cursed by the five gods, whatever the species itself was. There are probably a lot more examples, also from GW2, but I don’t have the time to look them up right now, so just accept these two from my head please. > You can attempt to do something that is impossible. To find something that doesn't exist. > > Doesn't mean that thing exists though. > > Keep in mind that line - full dialogue for the interested [here](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Last_Hierophant) - is from a norn. That is an in-universe line and ArenaNet has utilized the [unreliable narrator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator) since the days of Prophecies. This doesn't mean that norn, or Duncan the Black, were right and that the Great Destroyer had a soul. It meant that they believed it did. And given the fact that no one knew about the Elder Dragons or what dragon minions really were back then, it's not an unexpected belief. They thought that the Great Destroyer was a god-like being, after all. Who wouldn't think a being capable of killing gods that called itself its own master would have a soul? But they were wrong about what the Great Destroyer was, and they could have been wrong about it having a soul. While I would normally agree with you about Norn being rather unreliable narrators, I have to disagree with you here. All ingame evidence points towards Veth being right in this case. As everyone who played the dungeon can confirm, Duncan seems to know what he is doing. He seems to be a more that capable ritualist and a far mightier one than what we can see in the rest of the game. He also mentions that he plans to kill the player character and use their soul to find out who betrayed him, when you go near him, which makes it clear that he is indeed an expert in souls specifically, not that the countless amounts of bound spirits you have to slay your way through to get to him point to anything else. While the Norn could have simply been mistaken, the fact that Duncan himself actually invests so much time and work in his plans indicates that he thinks it will pay off. You may even argue that he is already harvesting the first fruits of his efforts, which would explain his insane strength and influence, but this is a mere possibility, since he could also have been so powerful from the very beginning. So merely dismissing the dialogue with a handwave and claiming it to not be taken seriously seems prematurely in my eyes. While it is not provable that Duncan was right, this seems highly unlikely. Not only were the dwarfs in general a rather wise race when it came to the destroyers, Duncan was proven to be especially competent regarding the topic of souls. To think he would be so profoundly mistaken regarding a basic question (is there even a soul I could use?) in a field he was specialized in…sorry, but that sounds off to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > I don't have time yet to properly contribute to this, but one thing I keep thinking about: why are we assuming that the ability to create a soul, or to create another living being with a soul is some kind of special power that only gods or god-like beings could have? I don't think anyone here has been saying "you must be a godlike being to make a soul" but rather, it's a discussion about the nature of creating dragon minions and whether or not they're "alive" enough to have a soul. Dragon minions are effectively just mobile dragon corruption, usually created from or in copying of a living body to allow said mobility. They are often called mindless and soulless, so we've always been led to believe (except in one case where we were under the impression of what was merely a dragon champion was something much more) that they didn't have souls. Dragon minions are effectively elementals - PoF promotions outright call branded "mindless elementals" as well, in fact. And elementals, as well as the minions that player necromancers make, are all considered soulless in normal situations. The only time any of the three aren't, is when a soul is trapped within - either as a prison or a power source. The Departing is the first indication of any dragon minion having a soul. (I would argue that Rytlock's mention of meeting Glint in the Mists during Crystalline Memories is not necessarily talking about meeting Glint's soul, but could be talking about meeting an echo of Glint, much like what we see during Stronghold PvP matches or what revenants channel - I'd argue it's a 50/50 chance now). Ultimately, it comes down to asking *"what is a soul in Guild Warverse"* and *"what counts as creating life in Guild Warsverse"*. We now know that sylvari have souls. Before we didn't. The question is no longer "do sylvari have souls" but now "why do sylvari have souls?" Similarly, a new question has appeared: "can other dragon minions have souls?" So far, the evidence for that question has popped up the same as "do sylvari have souls" - e.g., "no" has been the evidence so far, due to the lack of any such ghosts and the like ever seen. In the context of Elder Dragons and their domains, it makes sense that Zhaitan would be capable of controlling souls, given he was the dragon of death (and thus by now, Kralkatorrik can - maybe Primordus and Jormag still can even after Taimi's Machine incident). And it's arguably in the same light that Mordremoth, sometimes called an elder dragon of life (see Risen Lowland, Siren's Landing, ambient dialogue) could create minions with souls. Or it might just be that the Pale Tree created sylvari in a different way than Mordremoth and other Elder Dragons creating their minions (which is true, we've been told that sylvari are unique among dragon minions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > I am afraid that even the risen in Sirens landing still do react to you damaging them, proving that they feel some pain that makes them react. Their maneuvers definitely exceed normal reflexes that could be seen as an automatic bodily response. That makes them sentient and as we have seen with the animal spirits, capable of having a soul. You also interpret them to be constructs that are merely powered by a soul, but you said yourself that not all of them have spirits attached to them. Leaving the question, when the soul is not with the risen, but the risen is powered by a soul – where does the soul come from? I provided a suitable answer to that in my first comment. The soul in every case has been the "previous owner" of the body. Not every risen retains their soul when corrupted - Romke and his crew, and Crusader Aliyana are prime examples of this. In both cases, the resulting risen were those mindless grunts. Reacting to presence of others is not something that merits a soul. Soulless husks of necrotic minions react in the same way, if not even faster! The Soulless Horror reacts even stronger than any of those. A soul is not a mandate for having reaction to outside stimulus. Nor is it required for even conversation. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > I have no idea why you would think that all dragon minions fall under this category. Would you mind explaining this to me in more detail? It is also weird to assume Elementals could not have souls, as Djinn are free-willed and sapient, comparable to what humans are to animals, as stated by devs. If the animals in Tyria can have souls, that would indicate that lesser elementals could also have one. Because elementals have been outright stated to be soulless. They're literally chunks of rock, sand, ice, fire, etc. animated by magic. There's no soul or will behind them. And dragon minions are often considered the same - branded were outright called "mindless elementals" during PoF promotions (which is the first time dragon minions and elementals were directly related, BTW). Djinn do seem different, they're more than "just sapient elementals". They are tied to the elements, but they don't seem to be elementals any more than humans are monkeys. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > Thought unimportant, I also believe it to be amusing that you point out the name of a raid boss as an example. This is a creature we know virtually nothing about, we simply assume it to be soulless because of its name the games provide us with. This can be seen as a game mechanic to avoid the endless use of names such as "mysterious creature", or "unknow species" (which are used sometimes for plots sake). Except that Desmina outright tells us that it is her body acting without a soul. Something she had done - separating her soul and body - to prevent Dhuum from corrupting her as he had done to King Frozenwind and other servants of Grenth. We know a lot more than "virtually nothing". What we're not told by Desmina, there's even a drawing nearby that can be found which depicts Desmina's fight against Dhuum's minions, the ritual she used, and her soulless body assaulting those she was protecting after her soul fled. The raid developers have been pretty strongly shown to be well thought with the design of their bosses. Deimos looks like one hell of a demon. Then you learn the importance behind his appearance - those creepy arms draping around his shoulders that claw at his face occasionally at the arms of the White Mantle who died under Saul, literally forming a mantle on Deimos' shoulders, and the clutching animation represents Saul's guilt over their death. The scar on Deimos' chest is a depiction of the Eye of Janthir, an object that Saul had retrieved, and it is a marking used occasionally in GW1 (but never in direct relation to the Eye, finally taking an old bit of speculation and turning it true). Hell of a lot of thought into that. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > Since you even mention the unreliable narrator as a rhetorical device later in your post, I couldn’t keep myself from smiling, as this seems to me like the perfect example of an indirect way to provide such an unreliable narrator: Ssuns, Blessed of Dwayna was probably not really blessed by Dwayna and I am pretty sure that the five cursed ones that could be found on Perdition Rock in GW1 were simply normal boss-variants of the Abominations and not personally cursed by the five gods, whatever the species itself was. There are probably a lot more examples, also from GW2, but I don’t have the time to look them up right now, so just accept these two from my head please. That's true. That's why I've mentioned that it was **suspected** that naga revered the Human Gods. I never said it was fact, merely suspected. No other race gets a boss who's name claims it was blessed by a god. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > While I would normally agree with you about Norn being rather unreliable narrators, I have to disagree with you here. All ingame evidence points towards Veth being right in this case. As everyone who played the dungeon can confirm, Duncan seems to know what he is doing. He seems to be a more that capable ritualist and a far mightier one than what we can see in the rest of the game. He also mentions that he plans to kill the player character and use their soul to find out who betrayed him, when you go near him, which makes it clear that he is indeed an expert in souls specifically, not that the countless amounts of bound spirits you have to slay your way through to get to him point to anything else. But that still doesn't mean he could sense a soul of a deceased. We are told via An Empire Divided how ritualists work - they summon souls from the Mists. He would be channeling the Mists to look for the soul. He may be a competent ritualist, but this doesn't mean he knows everything about the Great Destroyer. If he did, then he would know the Great Destroyer was not a god-like being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai.3648 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Except that Desmina outright tells us that it is her body acting without a soul. Something she had done - separating her soul and body - to prevent Dhuum from corrupting her as he had done to King Frozenwind and other servants of Grenth. We know a lot more than "virtually nothing". What we're not told by Desmina, there's even a drawing nearby that can be found which depicts Desmina's fight against Dhuum's minions, the ritual she used, and her soulless body assaulting those she was protecting after her soul fled. First of all: Desmina is one hell of an unreliable narrator. She is even in her scriptures described as being so hungry for power that her own people banished her and quite a few people speculate that she willingly betrayed the reapers by changing the ritual to be the new sole ruler of the underworld. I would not trust her completely. Aside from that, I still am not convinced that the name has to be taken by word. You did not say anything against my examples from GW1 besides that you only suspect the Naga to pray to the human gods, but this is clearly not what I wanted to show there. The name is simply a game mechanic, it does not have to be 100% right. For example, while Desminas soul has left her body, that does not mean it is completely without a soul. As I understood it, her body itself was used by Dhuum. That seems odly enough like Zhaitan controlling empty corpses. Which may or may not have a soul in them, not from their former spirit, but simply by them being minions of the elder dragon. Which brings me to this quote: > A soul is not a mandate for having reaction to outside stimulus. Nor is it required for even conversation. You can certainly argue that mere reflexes and being used by a higher being as a tool for speech does not require a soul. But feeling emotions, such as pain or anger, seems indeed to require a soul. This has been the case so far for every spirit or soul we met. And I do not remember the unchained risen to be without such emotions. > Djinn do seem different, they're more than "just sapient elementals". They are tied to the elements, but they don't seem to be elementals any more than humans are monkeys. It is funny how you twist your words here: Humans may indeed not be monkeys, but they are certainly animals. Djinn are Elementals and to say they don’t have a soul is quite strange, since you are basically talking to a bound spirit when communicating with them. And since Djinn are to lesser elementals what humans are to animals, and both humans and animals having souls in Tyria, I would be careful with the claim of lesser elementals having no soul. > If he did, then he would know the Great Destroyer was not a god-like being. Where did Duncan say such thing? I don’t remember him personally claiming it to be one. He probably saw it for a powerful being, which it was. > But that still doesn't mean he could sense a soul of a deceased. We are told via An Empire Divided how ritualists work - they summon souls from the Mists. He would be channeling the Mists to look for the soul. He may be a competent ritualist, but this doesn't mean he knows everything about the Great Destroyer. That sounds phrased rather strangely. Would you please cite the exact sentences that you claim are indicating that he could have been so sourly mistaken? Because I can't find them and the rest of the lore about the Ritualist in An Empire Divided only strengthens my assumption that they can indeed get their hands on the souls, as seen as with Vizu, and are quite rehearsed in it. So that seems like a beginner's mistake to me, not something Duncan would fail prey to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai.3648 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > Regarding religion: It doesn’t matter what the personal believes of a sapient creature are. It seems like I have to correct myself regarding religion. As seen as in the quest Attack on Jalis's Camp, your personal believes do indeed play a role in which afterlife you get to enjoy, at least as long as the deity you pray to really exists and graces you with the presence of their avatar to claim your soul when you die (the last part is probably not necessary). Just an interesting side note, but I am kind of embarrassed that I could forget this quest, I quite liked it at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 IMO an easier solution is to say that the "soul" is not created, but called into each individual. This way the six can have power to control, guide and imprison souls, but doesn't need to be their creators. So if a sylvari doesn't have a soul, it is just a pile of moving plant material, but if it have one, he's really a person. This leaves the problem that sylvari seems to not have ghosts... but it may be because they have also a built in connection with the dream that can be calling their souls too. Theory: The (sylvari) commander "soul" should have travelled back to fuse again with the dream, but instead descended to grenth's domain because there was where if wanted to be, where his/her essence was more needed. The urge to confront Bathazar was stronger than the call of the dream, or maybe, even the dream stopped calling it because it needed to go there. Even more streamlined: without the guidance of Grenth, the dead realm is no longer isolated from the mist, the dream and other realms. Maybe if you keep it that way enough time, Sylvari spirits would began to appear there too, and even could become ghosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > First of all: Desmina is one hell of an unreliable narrator. She is even in her scriptures described as being so hungry for power that her own people banished her and quite a few people speculate that she willingly betrayed the reapers by changing the ritual to be the new sole ruler of the underworld. I would not trust her completely. Aside from that, I still am not convinced that the name has to be taken by word. You did not say anything against my examples from GW1 besides that you only suspect the Naga to pray to the human gods, but this is clearly not what I wanted to show there. The name is simply a game mechanic, it does not have to be 100% right. For example, while Desminas soul has left her body, that does not mean it is completely without a soul. As I understood it, her body itself was used by Dhuum. That seems odly enough like Zhaitan controlling empty corpses. Which may or may not have a soul in them, not from their former spirit, but simply by them being minions of the elder dragon. Which brings me to this quote: Reliable or not, we **literally see** Desmina's soul be separate from her body. That makes her body soulless. It's got nothing to do with what Desmina says. It's got everything to do with *what we see Desmina do.* There is no indication that Desmina's body had a soul within it, and we know that Dhuum consumes the souls of the fallen (both his own followers and his enemies) to utterly destroy them so why would he be instill a soul into a body? Besides this, we know that necromancer minions are also soulless - it's the very nature of them after all. So it's pretty clear that undead can be made without souls. Whether shambling reconfiguration of corpses, or an intact corpse. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > You can certainly argue that mere reflexes and being used by a higher being as a tool for speech does not require a soul. But feeling emotions, such as pain or anger, seems indeed to require a soul. This has been the case so far for every spirit or soul we met. And I do not remember the unchained risen to be without such emotions. Helper Qiana: I know. The corruption has changed them too much. They didn't have a protector like we did. Explorer: Their willpower is gone, their memories too. Explorer: They creep along, eating whatever is in their path. Explorer: If the Pale Tree had not separated herself from Mordremoth, we would be like these Risen. Helper Qiana: Without willpower. It is a terrible thing to consider. Explorer: We owe our mother everything. Worker: I wonder what it feels like to be a Risen. Krewe Leader: Is it possible they've been trapped inside their own decaying bodies, all this time? Worker: Do you suppose they're in pain? Worker: If only we could find a way to communicate with them. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Lowlands#Ambient_dialogue Just a portion of the dialogues across Siren's Landing that tell us: 1. Risen are mindless. 2. Risen have no emotions. 3. Risen's only reaction to external stimulae is "kill it." 4. Risen reaction is slow, their action is unchanging. Hence "mindless." 5. The above only change when a powerful risen is involved to control the others. You say there's no indication they lack emotion? There's *every* indication of such. And no indication that they have emotion. > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > It is funny how you twist your words here: Humans may indeed not be monkeys, but they are certainly animals. Djinn are Elementals and to say they don’t have a soul is quite strange, since you are basically talking to a bound spirit when communicating with them. And since Djinn are to lesser elementals what humans are to animals, and both humans and animals having souls in Tyria, I would be careful with the claim of lesser elementals having no soul. Technically speaking, we actually cannot say all animals have souls. The only souls we've seen of animals are the Spirits of the Wild and their messengers. This would be a bit like saying all humans are gods, because we see human gods and their messengers are humans. All the same, as I've said, we've been explicitly told on multiple levels that elementals do not have souls. What I was trying to say is along the lines of: "Djinn seem to be what elementals could be if they had souls." > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > Where did Duncan say such thing? I don’t remember him personally claiming it to be one. He probably saw it for a powerful being, which it was. [it's the very foundation of GW1's lore on the Great Destroyer.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unspeakable,_Unknowable) It's what **EVERYONE** thought at the time. It wasn't until Jormag rose that anyone in modern society beyond select few had a clue that any Elder Dragons even existed. The dwarves didn't during GW1, because it was lost knowledge. It was the common dwarven religious belief that the Great Destroyer was the antithesis of the Great Dwarf. It was a kind of god versus satan situation. And many Stone Summits - particularly their Hierophants like Morlog and Duncan - worshiped the Great Destroyer over the Great Dwarf, and sought to bring about its return (for some reason despite legend saying such would bring the end of the dwarves; guess they were nihilists). > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > That sounds phrased rather strangely. Would you please cite the exact sentences that you claim are indicating that he could have been so sourly mistaken? Because I can't find them and the rest of the lore about the Ritualist in An Empire Divided only strengthens my assumption that they can indeed get their hands on the souls, as seen as with Vizu, and are quite rehearsed in it. So that seems like a beginner's mistake to me, not something Duncan would fail prey to. There's not really a singular line, but lines about Vizu and Shiro/Envoys particularly. They state that ritualists summon souls from the Underworld (Factions quest show the same, unless [they're binding the souls of those they killed before they can move on](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shackled_Spirits)). There's nothing to show that a ritualist can sense a soul in the Underworld - if anything, we're shown the opposite - they can at best [see the "spirit threads" in the world where summoning would be easier.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Power_Surge) I am not saying "ritualists cannot get their hands on souls" - I never said such nor implied such. I have been saying that you cannot get your hands on something that doesn't exist, and believing it exists doesn't mean it does. The mistake I'm saying Duncan and those norn (by proxy of Duncan's mistake) made is the belief that the Great Destroyer had a soul. This belief would come from the idea that the Great Destroyer is not some mere champion of an Elder Dragon, but a god in its own right. Which we've known since GW2's release was untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolai.3648 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > There is no indication that Desmina's body had a soul within it, and we know that Dhuum consumes the souls of the fallen (both his own followers and his enemies) to utterly destroy them so why would he be instill a soul into a body? > > Besides this, we know that necromancer minions are also soulless - it's the very nature of them after all. So it's pretty clear that undead can be made without souls. Whether shambling reconfiguration of corpses, or an intact corpse. As far as I remember, Dhuum was not against the existence of souls, but against resurrection. That’s why he uses only his own skeleton minions to begin with, since he created, not awakened them. His idea of life seems to include emotions, which his minions lack. This does not contradict the idea that creating a minion also creates a soul. It even makes sense. In GW1 we are clearly told that Dhuum was able to gain energy from us slaying his minions. This can only be the case if his minions had souls, which he then consumed. This clearly indicates that those undead are nor without souls. Besides that, GW1 necromancers had the soul reaping attribute, that was at that time exclusively linked to killing things (and not also using your axe 2 skill) and then reaping their souls. It did also trigger on the deaths off summoned undead, which also implies that these minions did in fact had a soul. This would also make him into the first example of someone indeed generating energy by creating and then reaping souls, like i suspected it to be possible. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Worker: If only we could find a way to communicate with them. The more intelligent ones are clearly able to communicate with us, which just proves that the sylvaris are simply wrong with some of their assumptions, as seen with the risen that killed Dahlia. The ones who are still acting in a simple manner are also multiple times suspected to evolve slowly, but only time can show us the results of that. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > 1. Risen are mindless. > 2. Risen have no emotions. > 5. The above only change when a powerful risen is involved to control the others. > > You say there's no indication they lack emotion? There's *every* indication of such. And no indication that they have emotion. > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Worker: I wonder what it feels like to be a Risen. > Krewe Leader: Is it possible they've been trapped inside their own decaying bodies, all this time? > Worker: Do you suppose they're in pain? The fact that the sylvari even bother to think about the possibility of them having emotions indicate that they show signs of it, as we can also clearly see. If you call feeling pain and anger as not having emotions, I don’t know what to say. They clearly show these emotions, even after being freed from Zhaitan. Since I just was on the map, I can guarantee you that this includes the not so powerful ones. This makes them sentient. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Technically speaking, we actually cannot say all animals have souls. The only souls we've seen of animals are the Spirits of the Wild and their messengers. This would be a bit like saying all humans are gods, because we see human gods and their messengers are humans. This is wrong on multiple levels. First of all, it is indicated that every animal has a Spirit of the Wild associated with it, as seen with Griffon, Gorilla and Otter. They are simply rarely honored. Second, there are more spirits of animals around than you claim. One further example would be the ghost cat you can get for your home instance. By now it would be odd to assume that those with spirits shown ingame are the exception to the norm, when we had to wait 5 years for the first sylvari spirit. We simply don’t see more spirits because there was no special reason to show us them, not because they don’t exist. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Nikolai.3648" said: > > Where did Duncan say such thing? I don’t remember him personally claiming it to be one. He probably saw it for a powerful being, which it was. > > [it's the very foundation of GW1's lore on the Great Destroyer.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unspeakable,_Unknowable) It's what **EVERYONE** thought at the time. So, you claim him to do that. That’s fine by me. While not provable, it's not an illogical claim, but again, it changes nothing about the soul. I personally would not bold the word "everyone", as at least one mursaat, the forgotten and some seers where still around at that time and knew about the elder dragons. Was it common knowledge? No. But Duncan was a specialist and I don’t like having words put into NPCs mouth without prove they really said that. Especially in an argument about that NPC. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > There's nothing to show that a ritualist can sense a soul in the Underworld - if anything, we're shown the opposite - they can at best [see the "spirit threads" in the world where summoning would be easier.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Power_Surge) > > I am not saying "ritualists cannot get their hands on souls" - I never said such nor implied such. I have been saying that you cannot get your hands on something that doesn't exist, and believing it exists doesn't mean it does. > > The mistake I'm saying Duncan and those norn (by proxy of Duncan's mistake) made is the belief that the Great Destroyer had a soul. This belief would come from the idea that the Great Destroyer is not some mere champion of an Elder Dragon, but a god in its own right. Which we've known since GW2's release was untrue. We are never told that it is impossible to check if a soul resides somewhere in the afterlives without summoning them. This to me sounds like an easier task than the summoning itself and like the very basics of a ritualists abilities. Seeing as Duncan was so confident, I would bet that he did check. Can I prove that? No. But it seems far more likely than to get his whole dungeon set up for a mere chance of success of a complicated ritual which probably strained his resources and would lead to an immense loss of prestige and influence if he failed. Again, that seems like a beginner's mistake to me, not something Duncan would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 > @"Ardid.7203" said: > IMO an easier solution is to say that the "soul" is not created, but called into each individual. This way the six can have power to control, guide and imprison souls, but doesn't need to be their creators. So if a sylvari doesn't have a soul, it is just a pile of moving plant material, but if it have one, he's really a person. This leaves the problem that sylvari seems to not have ghosts... but it may be because they have also a built in connection with the dream that can be calling their souls too. > > Theory: The (sylvari) commander "soul" should have travelled back to fuse again with the dream, but instead descended to grenth's domain because there was where if wanted to be, where his/her essence was more needed. The urge to confront Bathazar was stronger than the call of the dream, or maybe, even the dream stopped calling it because it needed to go there. > > Even more streamlined: without the guidance of Grenth, the dead realm is no longer isolated from the mist, the dream and other realms. Maybe if you keep it that way enough time, Sylvari spirits would began to appear there too, and even could become ghosts. For what it's worth, the Commander isn't the only sylvari soul in the Domain of the Lost. There's a Priory sylvari in the cave where you fight the impostors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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