Signet of Vampirism...WHY!?

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

-snip-

>

> ah, so the healing Power increase is outside of combat as well? I didnt think that the build editor would show it applied, my mistake. Yeah that is my issue at the moment. Works fine with Scepter, obviously but not so great with dagger. Been giving Sigil of Earth a try, see if i can get a reasonable application to make it proc well enough. The only issue seems to be that the sigil doesnt proc enough in Shroud, with Dagger it isnt too bad. I have 40% Crit chance, so thinking i need to improve it a little bit more.

>

> 1) Though it has its counters. Conditions for a start. Burst damage. It would be strong against bunker builds granted. It wouldnt be as if it wouldn't have its own counters. When you're taking 5k+ auto attacks, the heal it grants isnt going to be that great. Though an idea could be to make it convert a % of the incoming damage to healing and then make the active a % of your out going damage into healing?

>

> 2) Maybe they could make it a mix between per cast and per hit, so if you hit someone then you get a heal. If you dont hit anyone then you don't. The difference would be that the heal would be from the hit. So you get the same healing if you hit one person and 100 people.

>

> 3) When you compare it to other kinda similar skills. Which dont have that weakness. Healing Signet for example. Heal no matter what. You're running? Heal. You're taking damage? Heal. Not taking damage? Heal. Thats the problem. The skill would still be very weak to conditions, would still be weak to insane burst damage be weaker to strong but low attacks as well.

 

Healing Signet is 344/s at 0HP and 364 at 400HP. So over the course of a minute, it would grant 364 * 60 = 21,840 heal/min. That's about in line with the total healing I got. (Yes, I had to get hit for it SoV to work, but if I wasn't hit, it probably wouldn't matter.) SoV alone or CC alone or WoB alone are around half that value. If you have no other passive healing, then you are technically much worse off than HS.

 

To me, SoV, WoB, CC are all somewhat weak if they are the only source of healing. The "problem" is that Anet gave necro enough ways to add passive healing (it doubled my healing!) that if they radically increase SoV/WoB/CC then necros will be built to never die, unless Anet also eliminates or severely reduces all other passive heals, which would be so non-necro. I don't see why this is an SoV specific issue - its roughly the same healing amounts for all three methods, so if SoV is underpowered, then so is CC and WoB.

[Sinful.2165]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Sinful.2165" said:

> > I don’t run anything that gives bleed (that I recall off hand). Yeah the chill gives actual bleed stacks.

> >

> > You can trait for blind to cause chill which will also cause bleed and makes that well that pulses blind start to look much more appealing. Also you can RS5 for the ice field and RS4 whirl finisher inside of it to send chill bolts out that in turn cause more bleeding.

> >

> > Just fooling around on my reaper running well of darkness, the AoE elite shout and using combos in ice fields puts out a pretty big stack of bleeds.

> >

> > Edit: Oh also the spite specialization trait that triggers the ice blast and the reaper trait that does another ice blast attacking a chilled enemy. There is also RS2 blind (+chill +bleed). And GS4 blind.

>

> Ah, I saw the bleeding, i just thought it was from the trait proccing at the right time. Checked again and it does indeed inflict a bleed. So that does make GS slightly more viable. Only problems would be Losing Blighters boon which with Spite grants SO much Might and healing in Shroud. The auto attack on GS is just too slow for it to really be that viable. Scepter does it quicker, applies more conditions. Corrupts a boon and can be done from range.

>

> yeah i am just playing around really, trying to get back into the game. Played a bit on Core Necro so i kinda want a build that can work between them both so i dont really have to change traits or gear as much.

 

I see. The only reason I play condi reaper like that is because I use ascended viper for scourge in PvE but enjoy playing reaper more so for anything that isn’t high fractals or raids I run as reaper but with the same gear and traited to take advantage of the condi stats. ;)

 

It’s nice having the two play styles with one set of armor, though of course I do swap from scepter/torch to axe/wh and GS.

 

You should give scourge a try if you like the scepter. They have an AoE fear that fits much better with the necro play style imo. Plus access to the torch which has pretty neat skills.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> Healing Signet is 344/s at 0HP and 364 at 400HP. So over the course of a minute, it would grant 364 * 60 = 21,840 heal/min. That's about in line with the total healing I got. (Yes, I had to get hit for it SoV to work, but if I wasn't hit, it probably wouldn't matter.) SoV alone or CC alone or WoB alone are around half that value. If you have no other passive healing, then you are technically much worse off than HS.

>

> To me, SoV, WoB, CC are all somewhat weak if they are the only source of healing. The "problem" is that Anet gave necro enough ways to add passive healing (it doubled my healing!) that if they radically increase SoV/WoB/CC then necros will be built to never die, unless Anet also eliminates or severely reduces all other passive heals, which would be so non-necro. I don't see why this is an SoV specific issue - its roughly the same healing amounts for all three methods, so if SoV is underpowered, then so is CC and WoB.

 

Yeah, they get similar healing, for just having it equipped. Nothing else. Equip and forget. Yes you might get similar healing BUT you have to take damage and with the broken balance of burst damage when it comes to WvW, it makes it MUCH weaker. The warrior could run away, use blocks, kite and STILL get the healing. The way Anet though that it was good design that you should take damage to get healing in a game where you can take INSANE damage just doesnt make much sense. If they changed it to a % of the incoming damage. That COULD work but not sure how it would work against groups. Though i am sure as a Necro which cant run away or anything, They would still die. It would be about balancing it well.

 

Consume Conditions i think works fine as the only heal due to the added efefct of removing all conditions you have on you which can save you a LOT of health. SoV just seems like its missing something. It says something that i cant remember the last time i saw someone in WvW with SoV because its just too far off being a viable healing skill.

 

The issue is, that you need to be taking damage to get healing, which wouldnt be so bad if the passive heal wasnt so meh. You take a 5k auto attack. You heal for like 600 then you take another 5k auto attack and get no heal. So in 1 second you have still taken like 9,400 damage. I think turning it to be something like:

 

Passive: Heal for % of the damage you take

Active: Heal for % of the damage you deal

 

The passive just isnt that strong considering you are having to take damage to get it, unless you are fighting bunker builds with no boons or REALLY bad condition builds the healing you get from it isnt strong enough to counter the fact you need to be constantly getting hit

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Sinful.2165" said:

> I see. The only reason I play condi reaper like that is because I use ascended viper for scourge in PvE but enjoy playing reaper more so for anything that isn’t high fractals or raids I run as reaper but with the same gear and traited to take advantage of the condi stats. ;)

>

> It’s nice having the two play styles with one set of armor, though of course I do swap from scepter/torch to axe/wh and GS.

>

> You should give scourge a try if you like the scepter. They have an AoE fear that fits much better with the necro play style imo. Plus access to the torch which has pretty neat skills.

 

yeah im not really a fan of condi builds as they are just a little too easy to play for the most part. Hybrid i do like and thats kinda what i am running. I have played Scourge, again Hybrid with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch and its quite fun. Still has the Necro level of issues - Mobility, low sustain, CC weak and such but its not too bad to play. the issue is, the kinda build im running with Base Necro and Reaper doesnt work very well with Scourge as its shroud form has a 30second cool down and i have many traits and such that affect going in and out of Shroud such as Boons, condition removal and such

 

 

[Warscythes.9307]

Too lazy to read the entire thing but vamp signet is not used due to mostly 3 reasons.

 

1) It doesn't offer condi cleanse. Necro in general actually are not great with condition clearing, this is different from condition transfer since those can miss. It is why consume condition is used is practically every necro pvp build ever.

 

2) It doesn't deal more damage than blood fiend. This is more on the pve side, assuming you are purely min/maxing on damage; blood fiend will do more damage overall. While vamp signet does offer some group heal, you are better off taking blood well if you really care about being supportive.

 

3) cd and cast time are too long. It has the same cast time and cd as consume condition but does not offer enough benefits to counter the full condi cleanse.

 

I think in general vamp signet should be designed mostly as an offense healing skill akin to guardian's Litany of Wrath. Put more power in the active instead of the passive. It needs to do more damage than blood fiend but less passive healing.

 

Reduce the cd and cast time(1/4? same as LoW). Greatly increase the damage/heal of the active siphon, tone up the duration of the marks. Reduce the active base heal. Maybe buff spiteful renewal in spite to 2 condi cleanse instead of 1 on using heal skill. Hell maybe even stick a 2-3 second quickness in there just to further cement its status.

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> Too lazy to read the entire thing but vamp signet is not used due to mostly 3 reasons.

>

> 1) It doesn't offer condi cleanse. Necro in general actually are not great with condition clearing, this is different from condition transfer since those can miss. It is why consume condition is used is practically every necro pvp build ever.

>

> 2) It doesn't deal more damage than blood fiend. This is more on the pve side, assuming you are purely min/maxing on damage; blood fiend will do more damage overall. While vamp signet does offer some group heal, you are better off taking blood well if you really care about being supportive.

>

> 3) cd and cast time are too long. It has the same cast time and cd as consume condition but does not offer enough benefits to counter the full condi cleanse.

>

> I think in general vamp signet should be designed mostly as an offense healing skill akin to guardian's Litany of Wrath. Put more power in the active instead of the passive. It needs to do more damage than blood fiend but less passive healing.

>

> Reduce the cd and cast time(1/4? same as LoW). Greatly increase the damage/heal of the active siphon, tone up the duration of the marks. Reduce the active base heal. Maybe buff spiteful renewal in spite to 2 condi cleanse instead of 1 on using heal skill. Hell maybe even stick a 2-3 second quickness in there just to further cement its status.

 

My opinions:

 

1) i dont mind that it doesnt offer condition removal. I think its a good idea. Already got a heal that does that. I wouldn't say that Necro are that weak with clearing/removing/transferring conditions. Got so many options that i dont think Consume Conditions is really that needed for its removals.

 

2) Can't comment on this as i WvW and Blood Fiend just sucks. Easily killed. First target. At least with SoV cant remove the effects. Wouldn't the 25 procs of it for allies out do the damage that blood Fiend would do? I assume the 25 stacks with 1 second ICD is per a player? Maybe if they removed this group aspect they could buff the skill up a little bit?

 

3) The cool down is fine, Traited if you're not Scourge the cool down reduction is pretty good. I do agree with the cast time, it just shouldnt be that long. Its the passive effect that i am not a fan of.

 

I would make it a Necro only skill, remove the group support. Make the passive so that it heals you for a % of the damage you take. This would help against burst builds but wouldnt be as strong against sustain and Condi builds. Thus still having a counter. The active remove the Leech damage. Add in an unblockable aspect and make it so that it heals you for a % of the damage that you deal. I think the Cool down is just about fine, when traited.Maybe reducing the cool down would be okay as the lower the cool down the weaker the trait cool down becomes so it wouldnt be as strong Cast time without a doubt needs a cast time reduction.

 

[Brujeria.7536]

Yeah, the signet sucks compared to Warri or Ele, or even thief to some extend. Its passive effects needs to be a lot stronger BASELINE. Or it needs a decent on hit heal, and by decent i mean strong. It should be at least 50% higher as warriors signet in times of fight to compensate for not being "in use" when kiting or when being disabled.

Also the active part should not have an ICD. Seriously, in times of Blood Reckoning and Facet of Light its healing wouldnt be too strong and its damage portion would actually be dangerous if used at the right time.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Yeah, the signet sucks compared to Warri or Ele, or even thief to some extend. Its passive effects needs to be a lot stronger BASELINE. Or it needs a decent on hit heal, and by decent i mean strong. It should be at least 50% higher as warriors signet in times of fight to compensate for not being "in use" when kiting or when being disabled.

> Also the active part should not have an ICD. Seriously, in times of Blood Reckoning and Facet of Light its healing wouldnt be too strong and its damage portion would actually be dangerous if used at the right time.

 

I'd be happy if they removed the group aspect and removed the ICD on the active. Maybe a change of effect could be made. Make it heal depending on your level of Life Force or something. This way you always get the heal. Even if they keep the 1second ICD you still get the heal. I'd say make it heal more the lower your life force is?

[Nimon.7840]

Just make passive on necro signet drain life and active only get life. Still let the icd on it.

 

So hitting an opponent with the signet actually punishes you every second once. And gives the necro health.

 

So I guess it's just a different option to retaliation.

 

It would be retaliation that heals you and reflects some dmg once every second. Not bad, not op either.

 

Removing the icd isn't an option i think. That might be way to op. Since it would be up to 8-900 heal on full healpower build. For every hit you take.

 

 

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Passive is good if you are being pegged from ranged attacks. Didn't we just have a thread on this? Probably still on the first page.

 

Except ranger long bow obviously XD and yeah this was a recent topic

[CaptainCaveman.7248]

The signet is worthless in pvp and thats the only mode I care about personally. Worthless. Please dont conjure up 1 in 1000 scenarios to make it seem all right. There is a reason why its not used by good players in spvp and it is not.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"CaptainCaveman.7248" said:

> The signet is worthless in pvp and thats the only mode I care about personally. Worthless. Please dont conjure up 1 in 1000 scenarios to make it seem all right. There is a reason why its not used by good players in spvp and it is not.

 

The same pretty much goes for Any game mode. You SHOULDN'T have a "heal" that requires you to be HIT. It is counter productive, get hit by 5,000damage. Heal for like 3-500 health. Makes sense. It needs a overhaul on the passive. The active is solid. The active can be VERY useful but the passive is what destroys it.