so mirage is fine in arena net's eyes?

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > This same argument/reason for topic is elsewhere. I actually just commented on one just before this. Sadly I am pretty much going to state the same thing word for word as a copied thread only deserves a copied response:

> >

> > "Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a -100% penalty to endurance regeneration right?

> Only if you have Elusive Mind.

- Which was the whole argument, which was a huge part of this debate so ofc im talking about EM. I fail to see the point of your comment here (im tired af so that prob doesnt help lol)

 

> >If you cant dodge, you cant spawn those clones, thus dps loss and greater chance of getting bursted. Its more risk vs reward now.

> Exhaustion only lasts 3 seconds, you still have a lot of skills to cast aside from dodges. It is more risky now, yes, but Exhaustion is by no means "a fix". "Stunbreak on dodge" shouldn't exist.

- You failed to see the importance of 3s of exhaustion. Same thing for Daredevil, exhaustion can get you killed. If a semi decent player sees you with exhaustion, you are dead. If I have to use my skills to cover for it, then it still puts me at a disadvantage as I needed to waste them, thus still vulnerable. I didnt state that it was a "fix", however a means to nerf it. Should it break stun? I personally dont care either way, however its no different than any passive stun breaker, with the exception with you need to waste a dodge to do it.

 

> > I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP.

> You might be the only person thinking that.

- Theres actually a lot of mesmers I meet in WvW/PvP that think the same thing. The minority (as usual) arent as loud as some.

> >Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure."

>

> Exhaustion was a bandaid fix and EM is still OP as it is right now.

- You seem to be part of the majority to mix up "OP" and "Unbalanced". There is a difference. Stunbreak on a dodge isnt game breaking. Stunbreak, clears all condis pulsing on a 5s interval for 30s...thats OP.

 

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > This same argument/reason for topic is elsewhere. I actually just commented on one just before this. Sadly I am pretty much going to state the same thing word for word as a copied thread only deserves a copied response:

> > >

> > > "Dodge while stunned is OP? You realize that when its done this way, it removed the stunned but gives them a -100% penalty to endurance regeneration right?

> > Only if you have Elusive Mind.

> - Which was the whole argument, which was a huge part of this debate so ofc im talking about EM. I fail to see the point of your comment here (im tired af so that prob doesnt help lol)

No, your argument was "Dodging while stunned isn't OP because you get Exhaustion". I pointed out that you don't need EM to dodge while stunned, if that's not you mean, phrase your post better.

> > >If you cant dodge, you cant spawn those clones, thus dps loss and greater chance of getting bursted. Its more risk vs reward now.

> > Exhaustion only lasts 3 seconds, you still have a lot of skills to cast aside from dodges. It is more risky now, yes, but Exhaustion is by no means "a fix". "Stunbreak on dodge" shouldn't exist.

> - You failed to see the importance of 3s of exhaustion. Same thing for Daredevil, exhaustion can get you killed. If a semi decent player sees you with exhaustion, you are dead. If I have to use my skills to cover for it, then it still puts me at a disadvantage as I needed to waste them, thus still vulnerable. I didnt state that it was a "fix", however a means to nerf it. Should it break stun? I personally dont care either way, however its no different than any passive stun breaker, with the exception with you need to waste a dodge to do it.

3 seconds of Exhaustion means you only lose 15 endurance (you gain 5 endurance per second, more if you have vigor). 15-25 endurance loss is almost nothing considering the endurance Mirage can get from base regen+vigor+sigils of energy+adventure runes when the Mirage doesn't have Exhaustion.

> > > I dont run it (Elusive Mind) due to the penalty as the con outweighs the bonus imo, however its far from OP.

> > You might be the only person thinking that.

> - Theres actually a lot of mesmers I meet in WvW/PvP that think the same thing. The minority (as usual) arent as loud as some.

- Infinite Horizon is a gimmick in PvP. Nothing really interesting about it. Only saw it on some mediocre Sword Chaotic Interruption builds.

- I'm not even going to talk about Dune Cloak.

 

> > >Pre nerf I would agree was unbalanced for sure."

> >

> > Exhaustion was a bandaid fix and EM is still OP as it is right now.

> Stunbreak on a dodge isnt game breaking.

 

I'm sure we saw that together for the past 7-8 months.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with OP. Need more mesmer nerfs.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > > I have nothing to add to this conversation, im also waiting for a serious mirage nerf oh and they also dominate wvw roaming too.

> >

> > Good. They're pretty terrible in a zerg. They should at least be good at roaming! You see the same issue in PvP. Mirage is among the strongest builds in 1v1, but then you have to consider that their damage gets diluted quickly with multiple targets present and any sort of decent support cleansing will nullify them. A knee-jerk nerf based on 1v1 performance could take this class from OP to irrelevant.

> >

> > I agree with the others. Kill EM already. Mirage doesn't need it. Then let's see where Mirage stands and if further nerfs are needed.

>

> Erm i said they dominate it, there is a difference between dominating and being good at something, the amount of escape, invuln and burst they can produce is stupid, you can only kill them if they get greedy for a kill

 

Thieves have always had builds like this that destroy in 1v1 and can walk away from any fight at any time. And like Mirage, they've always walked the line between OP and irrelevant. Like I said, no need to nerf everything. If you can't lock them down or prevent them escaping, it might help to target the things mirage players are identifying as a problem there. Specifically, EM and Mirage Thrust. Fixing these two things would directly address the biggest issues without really impacting much else. It's a good place to start.

[Jalal.6783]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> Im curious cus it hasn't been changed or nerfed for a long while now and mirage is one of the main reasons why path of fire is garbage and why i barely even bother with this game

>

> i mean, seriously what the actual hell? how is this class fine in your eyes?

>

> you can't get caught cus you have stunbreak on dodge, you can cast skills while in iframe and it even removes condition for good measure. How the hell do you kill a mirage that isnt a complete newb considering he can just use his dodge and get out of anything and it has no cooldown ? On top of that they have all the other mesmer skills like distortion or stealth and they also have axe 3 which is so ridiculously overpowered like yeah mesmer basically has a 30 sec+ utility skill (that requires a slot) that's 10 times worse than axe 3 cus it does the same thing except it has no damage and it has 3 times longer cooldown - how does that even make any sense whatsoever ?

>

> on top of that mirage is by far the highest mesmer dps spec and both condi and normal damage do so much while being virtually unkillable in 1v1 and the only way they die even in 1v5 is if they're greedy and they don't disengage.

>

> I've never seen something as ridiculous as this in my entire life. And then arena net nerfs mesmer instead of mirage so normal mesmer and chrono get screwed when mirage is the problem (and that chrono bunker build but thats gone now) . It's way too forgiving and way too rewarding and i can't see any skill expression on mirage cause every single mirage regardless of how random it is does the same thing cus the class is actually literally just button mash and everything else works out by itself

 

Agree 100%. They have all the answers and facilitate bad gameplay

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

>

> Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> >

> > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

 

2 step logic doesn't work here.

[Solori.6025]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> > >

> > > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> > Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

>

> 2 step logic doesn't work here.

 

1 step logic barely even works here

[Math.5123]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> >

> > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

 

I get what you're saying, but that is still not an argument to be made in the PvP sub. If you want confusion to be viable again (I have no idea if it is) in PvE, post your arguments over there.

I know sweeping changes to PvE through PvP can and will be bad for the game long term and I don't know why they didn't split the functionality now that they have that technology.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> > >

> > > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> > Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

>

> I get what you're saying, but that is still not an argument to be made in the PvP sub. If you want confusion to be viable again (I have no idea if it is) in PvE, post your arguments over there.

> I know sweeping changes to PvE through PvP can and will be bad for the game long term and I don't know why they didn't split the functionality now that they have that technology.

 

Confusion is viable in PvE but it's harder to tell how great it actually is because it won't show up on a DPS golem. In actual fight scenarios it's great. You can get 30k confusion procs on NPCs. This includes Svarnir and Chieftan in PvP.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> >

> > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

 

In the process of nerfing confusion, they also hurt other classes that use confusion. Only mirage got an adjustment for this change, other classes didn't. Condi engineer, for example, didn't need to be kicked harder than it already had been, but that nerf pushed it out of being meta in any game mode.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> > > >

> > > > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> > > Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

> >

> > I get what you're saying, but that is still not an argument to be made in the PvP sub. If you want confusion to be viable again (I have no idea if it is) in PvE, post your arguments over there.

> > I know sweeping changes to PvE through PvP can and will be bad for the game long term and I don't know why they didn't split the functionality now that they have that technology.

>

> Confusion is viable in PvE but it's harder to tell how great it actually is because it won't show up on a DPS golem. In actual fight scenarios it's great. You can get 30k confusion procs on NPCs. This includes Svarnir and Chieftan in PvP.

 

Compared to other damage conditions, confusion is too unreliable in PvE to expect much. Burning is a way more reliable damage condition in PvE. Confusion is effective in PvP because people tend to spam instant casts, which npcs usually don't have.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> > >

> > > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> > Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

>

> In the process of nerfing confusion, they also hurt other classes that use confusion. Only mirage got an adjustment for this change, other classes didn't. Condi engineer, for example, didn't need to be kicked harder than it already had been, but that nerf pushed it out of being meta in any game mode.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > > > > Also confusion already got nerfed hard a few patches back, to the point where they had to come back and ridiculously buff its on-skill-use damage against NPCs to keep it from being completely unusable in PVE.

> > > > >

> > > > > Good thing this is the PvP sub forum.

> > > > Yes, PVP, the thing they nerfed confusion damage across the board for the sake of a couple patches ago. Literally the point I was making.

> > >

> > > I get what you're saying, but that is still not an argument to be made in the PvP sub. If you want confusion to be viable again (I have no idea if it is) in PvE, post your arguments over there.

> > > I know sweeping changes to PvE through PvP can and will be bad for the game long term and I don't know why they didn't split the functionality now that they have that technology.

> >

> > Confusion is viable in PvE but it's harder to tell how great it actually is because it won't show up on a DPS golem. In actual fight scenarios it's great. You can get 30k confusion procs on NPCs. This includes Svarnir and Chieftan in PvP.

>

> Compared to other damage conditions, confusion is too unreliable in PvE to expect much. Burning is a way more reliable damage condition in PvE. Confusion is effective in PvP because people tend to spam instant casts, which npcs usually don't have.

 

In raid scenarios, Axes of Symmetry, Crystal Sands, and Jaunt are all worthwhile parts of your rotation. In PvE that's what matters.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > One problem at a time. I don't think most people were even aware that Mirage is strong

>

> Yeah... Thief is still allowed to use weapons after all. Anets gonna fix that soon ish.

 

They already "fixed" thief being able to use rifle, lulz

[Rodzynald.5897]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> The problem is the stupid rotation mirage can pull out.

>

> Every single spec has a sort of sustain rotation to survive, one easy example is spellbreaker, rotating shield5, into full counter, into gs3, into endure pain passive and balanced stance passive, plus endure pain active and again into full counter can maintain a solid defense, but it's possible and easy to counter a spellbreaker especially for a skilled player.

>

> Mirage rotation feels so brainless and "pve style". Seems like a pve rotation applied to pvp in which he can chain 10 freaking evades invuln, stealth while at the same time giving you so much pressure you have to use all your defensive abilities. If the mirage fails the rotation can still disengage in a matter of seconds and reset the fight and not even a thief can chase him fast enough.

>

> It's not as brainless and spammy like scourge, and not easy to play like warrior, but its exactly in the middle.

>

> A low risk high reward spec, and I don't think much time is required to master is and kill better players than you, that's the frustating part.

 

A faulty design in its core.

[Kraitan.8476]

pvp would be so much more enjoyable if we didnt have to fight 1-3 mesmers each game. It’s the least fun class to fight with the least amount of counterplay to it due to the retarded amount of evades/blocks/invuln/distort/blinds/stealth while easily capable of applying 20+ confusion stacks + a ton of other conditions within a single second. Anyone defending this statement plays mesmer. Dear Anet, please don’t let a bunch of 14 year olds who only care about winning ruin the fun for the non mesmer players who actually are trying to enjoy the combat. Also, 10k+ downstate hits SHOULD NOT be possible on any class. Its called downstate, not super-saiyan mode.

[Rysdude.3824]

There’s been what, several hundred posts in different threads without a response from Anet. So it may well be they are okay with it.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> The only mirage that is a problem is Condi.

 

I've been pointing to that since PoF dropped ;\

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> One problem at a time. I don't think most people were even aware that Mirage is strong

 

Many of us were, but compared to Chrono Mirage was not as aggressively obnoxious.

 

I'm all for _Another_ merged mes thread until it gets dealt with.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > The only mirage that is a problem is Condi.

>

> I've been pointing to that since PoF dropped ;\

 

Yeah well I hope A-net recognizes that.

[megilandil.7506]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> The problem is the stupid rotation mirage can pull out.

>

> Every single spec has a sort of sustain rotation to survive, one easy example is spellbreaker, rotating shield5, into full counter, into gs3, into endure pain passive and balanced stance passive, plus endure pain active and again into full counter can maintain a solid defense, but it's possible and easy to counter a spellbreaker especially for a skilled player.

>

> Mirage rotation feels so brainless and "pve style". Seems like a pve rotation applied to pvp in which he can chain 10 freaking evades invuln, stealth while at the same time giving you so much pressure you have to use all your defensive abilities. If the mirage fails the rotation can still disengage in a matter of seconds and reset the fight and not even a thief can chase him fast enough.

>

> It's not as brainless and spammy like scourge, and not easy to play like warrior, but its exactly in the middle.

>

> A low risk high reward spec, and I don't think much time is required to master is and kill better players than you, that's the frustating part.

 

This , this is the main problem, pvp have to be a game of action/ reaction, classes that in most scenarios can be sticky at a "pve style rotation" due to high sustaint, blocks evades.... or any other form of damage mitigation build in in the rotation while that makes that the actions of the rival will be irrelevant to you(max you have to kitting a bit to increase the survivality) , should be inspected whith microscope and take a serious nerf/redesign of how traits and skills interact with each others

 

that hapened with the cele ele, that hapened with bunker druids, and that hapens with mirages

[TheDevice.2751]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> Mesmer class has solid lobbyists.

 

This actually made me laugh... its so true ffs. Holy moly.

 

This entire game is just an environment for devs to play mesmers and bolster their own ego's.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> pvp would be so much more enjoyable if we didnt have to fight 1-3 mesmers each game. It’s the least fun class to fight with the least amount of counterplay to it due to the kitten amount of evades/blocks/invuln/distort/blinds/stealth while easily capable of applying 20+ confusion stacks + a ton of other conditions within a single second. Anyone defending this statement plays mesmer. Dear Anet, please don’t let a bunch of 14 year olds who only care about winning ruin the fun for the non mesmer players who actually are trying to enjoy the combat. Also, 10k+ downstate hits SHOULD NOT be possible on any class. Its called downstate, not super-saiyan mode.

 

Super-saiyan mode. =)

Great now we know what Mesmer's next buff will be... :/

[Menyus.4610]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > > > I have nothing to add to this conversation, im also waiting for a serious mirage nerf oh and they also dominate wvw roaming too.

> > >

> > > Good. They're pretty terrible in a zerg. They should at least be good at roaming! You see the same issue in PvP. Mirage is among the strongest builds in 1v1, but then you have to consider that their damage gets diluted quickly with multiple targets present and any sort of decent support cleansing will nullify them. A knee-jerk nerf based on 1v1 performance could take this class from OP to irrelevant.

> > >

> > > I agree with the others. Kill EM already. Mirage doesn't need it. Then let's see where Mirage stands and if further nerfs are needed.

> >

> > Erm i said they dominate it, there is a difference between dominating and being good at something, the amount of escape, invuln and burst they can produce is stupid, you can only kill them if they get greedy for a kill

>

> Thieves have always had builds like this that destroy in 1v1 and can walk away from any fight at any time. And like Mirage, they've always walked the line between OP and irrelevant. Like I said, no need to nerf everything. If you can't lock them down or prevent them escaping, it might help to target the things mirage players are identifying as a problem there. Specifically, EM and Mirage Thrust. Fixing these two things would directly address the biggest issues without really impacting much else. It's a good place to start.

 

Thieves sacrafice many things for god 1v1 build, while mirage aint, learn the difference between a burst build and a burst build while evading being invunerable or stealthed, also if a thief escape he cant attack again, mirage will, if a thief escapes a hard situation he wont for another 40 seconds, dont bring thieves here....

[Menyus.4610]

God i hate people who defend obvious pvp experience ruining classes like mirage, so they can enjoy their glory longer, just look at how many people leave pvp because of this

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"Menyus.4610" said:

> > > > > I have nothing to add to this conversation, im also waiting for a serious mirage nerf oh and they also dominate wvw roaming too.

> > > >

> > > > Good. They're pretty terrible in a zerg. They should at least be good at roaming! You see the same issue in PvP. Mirage is among the strongest builds in 1v1, but then you have to consider that their damage gets diluted quickly with multiple targets present and any sort of decent support cleansing will nullify them. A knee-jerk nerf based on 1v1 performance could take this class from OP to irrelevant.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with the others. Kill EM already. Mirage doesn't need it. Then let's see where Mirage stands and if further nerfs are needed.

> > >

> > > Erm i said they dominate it, there is a difference between dominating and being good at something, the amount of escape, invuln and burst they can produce is stupid, you can only kill them if they get greedy for a kill

> >

> > Thieves have always had builds like this that destroy in 1v1 and can walk away from any fight at any time. And like Mirage, they've always walked the line between OP and irrelevant. Like I said, no need to nerf everything. If you can't lock them down or prevent them escaping, it might help to target the things mirage players are identifying as a problem there. Specifically, EM and Mirage Thrust. Fixing these two things would directly address the biggest issues without really impacting much else. It's a good place to start.

>

> Thieves sacrafice many things for god 1v1 build, while mirage aint, learn the difference between a burst build and a burst build while evading being invunerable or stealthed, also if a thief escape he cant attack again, mirage will, if a thief escapes a hard situation he wont for another 40 seconds, dont bring thieves here....

 

So wouldn't being unable to break stun and cleanse condi on evade as well as fixing Mirage thrust so that it isn't auto disengage help with most of that? What are you arguing? That they will need way more nerfing than that? I don't think you know as much as you think you do.