GW2 character system

[Lord Caim.1408]

I know a lot of people are probably going to hate on me for this, but I have to say this and maybe even get an answer.

 

GW1 is my most played and beloved game of all time. I had 3k hrs in it when I stopped playing, mainly because there weren't many people still playing and I always played it for the pvp. I loved it and especially the character system and how you would build your individual character and then tailor them into a group build for a really tactical pvp experience. I just want to know what the reason was to ditch all that. the distributing of attribute points, secondary classes, 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots! decisions mattered. and now? it feels so shallow. I wanted to open this thread when GW2 released but back then I couldn't. I was just...sad and disappointed. Now I want to know. Is there a way to let a dev see this and maybe even get an answer? It would mean much to me. And maybe I even can get over it and finally start enjoying GW2.

[Ryou.2398]

Hmmm well mmorpgs change, you can argue that eq1 was better then eq2 for example but both have their pros and cons, guild wars 2 could certainly use more depth in skills and leveling rpg elements but it has more depth then gw1 in many other ways, and gw2 is a much better pve experience, its not so much of a pvp game.

[Eme.2018]

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

>and gw2 is a much better pve experience, its not so much of a pvp game.

 

Well, that is what ended up happening but I don't think that the build depth is the reason that led to it being this way.

 

@"Lord Caim.1408"

The combat in any MMO boils down to the build and the actual execution of a build when fighting. Now, I've never played Gw1 but guessing from what you are saying, maybe A-Net wanted Gw2 to be a little bit more simplistic and casual in terms of build crafting, since the **actual combat** was the latter's highlight.

 

 

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

It seems you're still under the assumption that GW1 has anything to do with GW2. All the "we took everything you loved about GW1 and put it into a persistend open world" speech was a lie 6 years ago and it's a lie to this day. I believe at some point ANet even distanced themselves from this and said GW2 is supposed to be something new and completely different.

 

My tip: If you want to enjoy GW2 you need to accept it as what it is. A new game that has nothing to do with GW1 except the lore. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if GW3 becomes a shooter. ;)

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You may find some answers here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions

Other Developer answers would be found searching the internet for articles posted pre-release.

 

Good luck.

[Randulf.7614]

Indeed, they have answered it many times over. Balance is one part - gw1 was a balance nightmare with all those skills and combos. For all the whinging about gw2 balance, gw1 had it astronomically worse.

 

Gw1 worked for that style if game. The devs wanted a more dynamic world and a dynamic, action orientated combat was what they believed fitted that vision.

 

Personally I prefer what we have to tbe cumbersome system of old. I cant return to gw1 because i cant work out how my old builds played and it is far too daunting to try and exoeriment with thousands if skills. GW2 is pick and play and it is that accessibility which has he,ped make it so popular

[maddoctor.2738]

>@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

 

A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1. In GW1 for example you had to use separate slots for chain skills (anyone who played Assassin knows this), in GW2 chain skills take the same slot.

There are also lots of GW2 skills that give you access to entire new skill-bars, like banners, transforms, conjures and so on.

Also, a lot of the traits in GW2 significantly change how skills work, providing new abilities to existing skills, while attributes in GW1 only increased numerical stats.

[Lord Caim.1408]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

>

> A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

> It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1.

 

there are more than 1000 active skills in GW2, that each character class can access at the same time? Cause in GW1 you could potentially access all skills since you can adjust your secondary class on the fly. I pretty much doubt that.

 

 

[Mandragorin.5978]

> @"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > > 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

> >

> > A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

> > It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1.

>

> there are more than 1000 active skills in GW2, that each character class can access at the same time? Cause in GW1 you could potentially access all skills since you can adjust your secondary class on the fly. I pretty much doubt that.

>

>

 

You couldn't "change them on the fly" in gw1. Unless they changed something since last time I logged in, once you set your skill bar and entered a zone...you were locked in until you left your instance. Same thing for your secondary class.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > > 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

> >

> > A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

> > It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1.

>

> there are more than 1000 active skills in GW2, that each character class can access at the same time? Cause in GW1 you could potentially access all skills since you can adjust your secondary class on the fly. I pretty much doubt that.

>

>

 

No it's total number of skills versus total number of skills.

As for adjusting your secondary on the fly, there were some requirements, especially in Prophecies (prof quests?), plus you had to go and unlock all those skills before you could even use them. Finally it's not like all secondaries "fit" with all primaries either.

Also, in GW2 you can change your skills/build on the fly for each encounter, in GW1 that was impossible.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I think it is too late to change it back to a system more similar to Guild Wars 1. While many people like how the original game worked and how it allowed for really creative builds, many GW2 players just like the weapon-based skill system and the trait system of the current game.

 

I personally would love to get the flexibility of the GW1 free selectable skill system back. I like how the GW1 system allowed you to for example: allowed you to for example equip 8 heal/protect spells, create really nice niche builds and fight with just the attack skills that you like instead of what comes with the current weapons.

 

But we must be realistic. The GW2 system is in here for so long that it is not realistic to expect it will ever be switched back. And this would also break the current gameplay and require an all-new balancing to be done. Maybe, just maybe with a future elite spec we could be allowed to cherrypick weapon skills from different weapons, equip multiple heal skills or use the current weapon skills in utility slots and vice versa. (Hint, hint ;) )

[starlinvf.1358]

The reasons are surprisingly simple.... while I only agree with half the reasons.

 

They needed to streamline a few things in order to make the system more approachable to new players, and to better support the shift to an active combat system. Understand that GW1's Attribute system is extremely unconventional, and I've only seen a few games (in total) that use this idea.... and incidentally, each also used instance based levels with Lobbys as staging areas.

 

Generally speaking, most players don't understand the concept of diminishing returns, and tend to favor linear systems due to its straight forward nature. It also allowed the game's numbers to scale upward indefinitely- actually showing compound growth due to how stacking multiplicative modifiers work. This was done explicitly to mimic more conventional MMO and Single Player RPGs, so the leveling system had a clear growth pattern.

But to facilitate their soft trinity design, all characters have normalized stats, and the gear system is used to modify it to build specifications. This was an attempt to integrate gear into the system, so conventional MMO players can understand the basics right away. But unlike most games, the stats are detacthed from the classes..... so eventually players learn how to manage a stat budget to get a build working. Unfortunately the rest of the system doesn't know how to play off of this properly. As a result, the linear scaling creates an issue where small investments are ultimately insubstantial, and heavy investment compounds beyond the thresholds of their opposing stats. In a straight damage model, which only has a hand full of output vectors, theres very little you can do create counter play that posses high precision..... and in the end, are forced to either mitigate heavily, or negate entirely to create an impact action.

 

The simplification of the skill system was done mostly for ease of balance. Despite its down side, you can technically have better control of power scaling within a single class, and work balance by "relative between classes". Any Vet will tell you that this approach "should" work... but for some reason, Anet takes the most unintuative, round about method to address balance issues; and this has created a huge pile of cruft that they end up having to address again later when the real problem gets fixed. At the rate Anet makes these changes, it leaves us in a perpetual state of disarray, with a player Meta response having no choice but to capitalize given the months a response takes. Players also hate having to regear for small changes due to how Anet set gear up to be a long term gold sink (from Fractals on).

 

Then theres the evolution of the Trait system. I find the current Trait setup to be better in concept..... but the distribution of traits in each line, and how they interplay, are being poorly utilized on nearly every class. This partly has to do with how Core Builds for each class works; but ultimately the only thing stopping them from fully addressing this is the time and effort investment, and the need for a strong design lead on the subject, both of which Anet seem to be lacking for whatever reason.

 

The big overall take away though is that while there are things that could benefit from recreating some of GW1's build system, 2 fundamental parts of the game would need a major overhaul..... How stats are controlled, and how things are designed to scale. Two things Anet has been trying to avoid that at all costs. Unless Anet surprises everyone, and actually follows through with it, I'm holding out until GW3 for any hope of a better underlying system that won't be cement blocked by a legacy system.

[Lord Caim.1408]

PvP characters could change their secondary class, attirbutes and skills (pretty much everything really) they used in between every match. That is what I call on the fly. As you could infer from what I previously wrote, I was pretty much always playing pvp.

[Lord Caim.1408]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> No it's total number of skills versus total number of skills.

 

Wait did I miss something? There are more than 1000 active skills in GW2?

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No it's total number of skills versus total number of skills.

>

> Wait did I miss something? There are more than 1000 active skills in GW2?

>

>

 

Guild Wars 2 as of this moment has 1402 clickable skills. And this excludes skills that change in effect when certain traits are chosen.

Guild Wars 1 has a total of 1319 clickable skills.

[Goettel.4389]

GW2 combat was obviously designed to be much more 'twitchy', which is one reason I like it where I didn't like GW1.

[Mea.5491]

> @"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> 1250 skills to choose from

 

Sounds good, huh? But in reality, people only used maybe 10% of that. In the end, everyone used the same skills that were meta at the moment.

I think GW1 was boring because it wasn't a real MMO with an open world. I'm glad they ditched it and made GW2, it's more fun. :)

[Danikat.8537]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

>

> A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

> It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1. In GW1 for example you had to use separate slots for chain skills (anyone who played Assassin knows this), in GW2 chain skills take the same slot.

> There are also lots of GW2 skills that give you access to entire new skill-bars, like banners, transforms, conjures and so on.

> Also, a lot of the traits in GW2 significantly change how skills work, providing new abilities to existing skills, while attributes in GW1 only increased numerical stats.

 

Another thing to consider is that GW1 didn't have anything like traits. Either it was a skill on your bar or an upgrade to equipment (armour rune, inscription or weapon prefix/suffix) or it didn't exist so even 'passive' skills still had to take up one of your 8 slots and therefore restricted how many 'active' skills you could have. For example the first two skills on my ranger/elementalist's bar were Posion Tip Signet, which triggered poison on the next attack and an ele skill which added bonus damage if you did fire damage. In GW2 things like that will be traits and trigger automatically, leaving your skill slots free for other things.

 

At first it definitely seems like there's less choice in GW2 and there's no denying you don't get the same freedom to mix and match skills (which annoys me sometimes, I think every weapon has 1 skill I almost never use) but I think there's more things to choose overall.

 

GW1 had your 8 skills, attribute points to split between 9 lines (5 for your core profession and 4 for the secondary) and 2-3 upgrades per piece of equipment (or inherent bonuses, depending on the item). And then 'minor' things like rangers needing to choose between different bow types based on their speed and range and casters needing to choose between a staff or wand and focus.

 

GW2 has 10 skills, 5 of which change automatically based on your weapon (so most professions have 10 weapon slots, ele and engi can't weapon swap but eles have 4 different elements and engis have up to 4 kits which change their weapon skills so potentially they have _more_ weapon skills available), attribute bonuses come from your equipment - you can put points into 3 or 4 lines per equipment piece at level 80 (or all of them if you get celestial equipment) and 1-2 upgrades per piece of equipment and also 3 specializations which add 6 passive bonuses each - 3 automatic and 3 which you get to choose from sets of 3. Plus your profession mechanic which you generally don't get to choose (apart from things like rangers choosing which pets they use because they all have different stats and skills, unlike GW1 where they were just skins) but it needs to be taken into account.

 

So GW1 is more like choosing individual pieces - you pick each skill individually, you place each attribute point individually etc. whereas in GW2 you're choosing 'sets' - like a weapon which gives a set of 5 skills or a specilization which gives 3 minor traits and a choice of 9 major traits - but there's more things to choose 'sets' for. But in practice GW1 was a lot like that as well, for example because attributes 'only' boosted the power of your skills you didn't have total freedom to choose between the 9 lines, you had to pick the ones associated with the skills you were using (and maybe put some points into your profession's primary attribute for the bonus effect). You weren't stopped from making choices which had no association with each other - you could give your warrior 8 hammer skills and equip a sword if you really wanted to - but if you wanted a functional build you had to pick ones which went together.

 

It may be subjective but I don't feel like making a character build is simpler in GW2. Sometimes I do miss the freedom of choice from GW1, but I don't think I'd want it with the same number of things to choose because that would be too complicated.

 

 

 

[sorudo.9054]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >@"Lord Caim.1408" said:

> > 1250 skills to choose from and fitting them into 8 skill slots!

>

> A small note: GW2 has more skills than GW1 (excluding Eye of the North skills)

> It might look like it has less skills, but in reality it has more because GW2 skill clicks are far more complex than in GW1. In GW1 for example you had to use separate slots for chain skills (anyone who played Assassin knows this), in GW2 chain skills take the same slot.

> There are also lots of GW2 skills that give you access to entire new skill-bars, like banners, transforms, conjures and so on.

> Also, a lot of the traits in GW2 significantly change how skills work, providing new abilities to existing skills, while attributes in GW1 only increased numerical stats.

 

and GW1 only has att points to worry about, GW2 has allot of stats to worry about with the added problem that all the "more" skills are actually less skills.

all weapon skills are locked, that would only count as X skills and not the number of skills present.

the first skill is the auto skill, using that as an excuse to add more skills in the counter would mean that GW1 has it better, no skills needed to attack or (according to you) everyone can use the same skill regardless.

freedom of skill choice is also a part where GW1 has the upper hand, if we could actually choose skills on weapons then you can say more skill, till then a weapon can only be seen as one set of skills, not skills individually.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> the first skill is the auto skill, using that as an excuse to add more skills in the counter would mean that GW1 has it better, no skills needed to attack or (according to you) everyone can use the same skill regardless.

 

That's not true. The first skill can be multiple skills all combined in one skill, they are different clicks, have their own wiki and game entry AND do different things.

Check out https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Strike, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Strike and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lotus_Strike chain for example. 2 of those skills even exist in GW1.

 

Freedom of skill choice isn't a part where GW1 has the upper hand either, it's only better in pre-planning, but afterwards you have zero choice. In GW2 you can change and modify your build to take care of different encounters in the same instance, or swap them to perform better at different event phases. Ever chose to use an extra projectile reflection skill for a projectile heavy encounter? GW1 has zero skill choice in that regard because once you start, your bar is fixed.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > the first skill is the auto skill, using that as an excuse to add more skills in the counter would mean that GW1 has it better, no skills needed to attack or (according to you) everyone can use the same skill regardless.

>

> That's not true. The first skill can be multiple skills all combined in one skill, they are different clicks, have their own wiki and game entry AND do different things.

> Check out https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Strike, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Strike and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lotus_Strike chain for example. 2 of those skills even exist in GW1.

>

> Freedom of skill choice isn't a part where GW1 has the upper hand either, it's only better in pre-planning, but afterwards you have zero choice. In GW2 you can change and modify your build to take care of different encounters in the same instance, or swap them to perform better at different event phases. Ever chose to use an extra projectile reflection skill for a projectile heavy encounter? GW1 has zero skill choice in that regard because once you start, your bar is fixed.

 

your weapon is fixed, no difference there.

also, i don't see the first skill as skills, it's auto attack.

it might chain but it's still one skill that changes, if it was more then one skill we could use other skills without using the other.

[Rajani Isa.6294]

 

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> I think it is too late to change it back to a system more similar to Guild Wars 1. While many people like how the original game worked and how it allowed for really creative builds, many GW2 players just like the weapon-based skill system and the trait system of the current game.

>

> I personally would love to get the flexibility of the GW1 free selectable skill system back. I like how the GW1 system allowed you to for example: allowed you to for example equip 8 heal/protect spells, create really nice niche builds and fight with just the attack skills that you like instead of what comes with the current weapons.

>

> But we must be realistic. The GW2 system is in here for so long that it is not realistic to expect it will ever be switched back. And this would also break the current gameplay and require an all-new balancing to be done. Maybe, just maybe with a future elite spec we could be allowed to cherrypick weapon skills from different weapons, equip multiple heal skills or use the current weapon skills in utility slots and vice versa. (Hint, hint ;) )

 

Oh they could still do major changes like fitting in a GW1 Style skill system. Just read up on Star Wars Galaxies, Jump to Lightspeed, and New Game Experience! It’s practically fool proof!

[Glacial.9516]

With Danikat's post in mind regarding Traits as skills, I wondered how many 'skills' a character could have available to choose between (assuming out-of-combat ability to switch them around). Note in advance: I surely missed some skills!

 

**Traits**

12 Traits x 7 lines = **84** 'Passive skills' from traits.

(Arguably more for some classes like Engi with Gadgeteer having 6 passives bundled or Ele with Arcane Abatement and Evasive Arcana having 4 each. I will exclude these for now because I don't know all of them off-hand and don't feel like looking through every trait!)

 

**Slotted skills** (I excluded bonus/chain skills. Engi has quite a few with Turret overcharges and such).

**28** Utility skills

**6** Healing

**5** Elites

(**+35** Skills from Kits for Engi)

(**+25** Skills from Conjures for Ele)

 

**Racial skills**

Asura: **11** skills (6 +5 for Power suit)

Charr: **11** skills (6 +5 for Charrzooka)

Human: **11** skills (6 +5 for Melandru)

Norn: **26** skills (6 +20 for Spirits)

Sylvari: **6** skills

 

**Weapons:** (I excluded chain skills, but for most weapons this would add another ~2 skills per Main/2H weapon)

Guardian: 4x MH, 3x OH, 6x 2H = **48 skills**

Revenant: 2x MH, 3x OH, 5x 2H = **37 skills**

Warrior: 4x MH, 7x OH, 6x 2H = **56 skills**

Engineer: 2x MH, 2x OH, 3x 2H = **25 skills**

Ranger: 3x MH, 4x OH, 6x 2H = **50 skills**

Thief: 3x MH, 2x OH, 5x 2H = (+5 dual skills) **46 skills**

Elementalist: 3x MH, 3x OH, 2x 2H = 9x4 + 6x4 + 10x4 = (+30 Weaver duals) **130 skills!**

Mesmer: 3x MH, 5x OH, 4x 2H = (+7 Ambushes) **46 skills**

Necromancer: 3x MH, 4x OH, 4x 2H = **37 skills**

 

**F-Skills**

Guardian: **24** (3 Core, 3 per elite spec + 15 from tomes)

Revenant: **11** (6 Legends, 2 Herald (passive+active), 3 Citadel)

Warrior: **20** (11 Burst including SB, 9 Primal)

Engineer: **48** (38 Toolbelt, 1 Function Gyro, 6 Holo, 3 Non-Norn Racial, 2 Norn racial)

Ranger: **175!!** (122 pet skills (including pet-controlled ones), 10 Celestial avatar, Soulbeast 18xF1 + 18xF2 + 5xF3 + 2 for Enter/Exit Beastmode)

Thief: **50** (9 PvP steals, 28 PvE, 4 Raid. 9 Deadeye)

Elementalist: **4** (4 Overloads, debatably +4 for attunement swaps?)

Mesmer: **5** (Shatters)

Necromancer: **21** (1 Death shroud, 9 Shroud skills incl. Water. 1 Reaper shroud, 5 Reaper skills. 5 Shade skills)

 

Surprisingly, Ranger's pet skills push them waaaaaay higher than I would have anticipated.

 

Maximums:

84 Traits, 26 Racial skills (Norn) = 110

 

Guardian: 110 + 39 Utilities + 48 Weapons + 24 F-skills = **221 skills**

Revenant: 110 + 39 Utilities + 37 Weapons + 11 F-skills = **197 skills**

Warrior: 110 + 39 Utilities + 56 weapons + 20 F-skills = **225 skills**

Engineer: 110 + 74 Utilities + 25 Weapons + 47 F-skills = **256 skills**

Ranger: 110 + 39 Utilities + 50 Weapons + 175 F-skills = **374 skills**

Thief: 110 + 39 Utilities + 46 Weapons + 50 F-skills = **245 skills**

Elementalist: 110 + 64 Utilities + 130 Weapons + 4 F-skills = **308 skills**

Mesmer: 110 + 39 Utilities + 46 Weapons + 5 F-skills = **200 skills**

Necromancer: 110 + 39 Utilities + 37 Weapons + 21 F-skills = **207 skills**

 

Somehow, Ranger pulls ahead with the utterly massive number of pet skills. It could probably double it if you included each pet variant's shared skills separately, but I only counted each unique skill once.

[JDub.1530]

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned, that I'm fairly certain I heard from the devs at one point, is while GW1 may have had more options, it didn't necessarily have more choices. Meaning, if you wanted to optimize, there was a very limited subset of builds that were viable, that would get used. Now maybe you like going off meta and playing something non-optimal but fun, and that's fine, but it was a design choice for them to remove the complexity of an underutilized build tree.

[perilisk.1874]

I don't know that GW1 or GW2 is substantially different in terms of individual build choice, in the big picture.

 

I think the main differences are

1) GW1 was built around group play and roles, so the "build" really comes down to 64 skills, not 8. Similarly, enemies used group tactics and those groups had roles. GW2 allows group play, but it's built and balanced around solo play (and mass solo play, i.e., zergs) and enemies mostly don't act in concert.

2) The interplay between systems was much stronger in GW1, so there were very strong synergies and counters. This also made it easier to create overpowered combinations, or broken and useless ones. But GW2 goes too far the other direction. Self-sustain and active defense and group healing is forced into every build thanks to the dodge and heal slot and revive mechanic, which diminishes supportive roles. Outside of bosses and endgame content, PvE encounters are bland and don't normally require much in the way of control or debuffing, leaving DPS as the only consistently useful role, plus CC for bosses (but as a form of DPS for breakbars, rather than a set of differentiated control mechanics with situational strengths and weaknesses).

3) GW1 allowed secondary professions. This meant that no profession needed to be a jack of all trades -- if you want a little of X role and a little of Y role, then you just mix the two professions that fill those roles. This meant much tighter design for professions and closer linking of professions with roles.