6 Years of worthlessness in wvw as this class is basically barred from enjoying the gamemode

[Substance E.4852]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> A few days ago we had some people running some numbers in this subsection about dealing 8-12k AA's at 1800 range via longbow. You can't seriously tell me that the ranger is bad at picking off targets when it can kill most backliners from within the safety of its own group in two AA's.

 

Every group runs multiple spellbreakers running bubbles on cooldown. Ele's also have magnetic aura that they ALL run.

 

The 180noscope ranger build is about as viable as the old Bear Form meme build hitting people for 40k damage with a single charge.

 

Full glass rangers are free bags. Nothing more.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > A few days ago we had some people running some numbers in this subsection about dealing 8-12k AA's at 1800 range via longbow. You can't seriously tell me that the ranger is bad at picking off targets when it can kill most backliners from within the safety of its own group in two AA's.

>

> Every group runs multiple spellbreakers running bubbles on cooldown. Ele's also have magnetic aura that they ALL run.

>

> The 180noscope ranger build is about as viable as the old Bear Form meme build hitting people for 40k damage with a single charge.

>

> Full glass rangers are free bags. Nothing more.

 

I'm not saying the build is good. I'm saying ranger deals enough damage to burst people down on the periphery.

 

Ranger in general can opt for over 10s of unblockable attacks which downright ignores these things, anyways.

 

So you take a damage drop from 12k AA's to to 6-7k. That's plenty of damage into the back line and with OWP using Barrage/RF you've got plenty of burst for a tanker player in the frontline. Barrage also ignores projectile denial. So OWP this when the enemies stack inside it and you either force like 25-30k damage easily on a number of players in the group, or they are forced to leave the bubble.

 

Glass staff ele is also a free bag if it gets caught/dove. So what's your point?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

And not, a partialy dodged RF from a glass cannon ranger won't take even quarter of my 29k hp and 2.5k armor while i sit comfortingly with spikesof 8k dps and average of 6.5k dps (source arcdps ).

>

And that is the problem, at least for Power LB. Sure you can use barrage to help finish off downed players, to apply cripple, or to psychologically force players to reposition, but outside of that you are pretty much waiting for LB 2 to come off cooldown if your goal is to stay at range. If you aren't able to burst a target down with your RF, at best you've forced them to retreat into the zerg.

 

Contrast that with getting bombed by a scourge, where unless you have several cleanse abilities, you're pretty much toast.

 

I agree with an earlier comment about not comparing one profession vs a broken one, but the fact is, WvW is full of players playing a broken profession, even after several nerfs, so what you refer to (correctly) as broken, is in reality, normal.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> And not, a partialy dodged RF from a glass cannon ranger won't take even quarter of my 29k hp and 2.5k armor while i sit comfortingly with spikesof 8k dps and average of 6.5k dps (source arcdps ).

> >

> And that is the problem, at least for Power LB. Sure you can use barrage to help finish off downed players, to apply cripple, or to psychologically force players to reposition, but outside of that you are pretty much waiting for LB 2 to come off cooldown if your goal is to stay at range. If you aren't able to burst a target down with your RF, at best you've forced them to retreat into the zerg.

>

> Contrast that with getting bombed by a scourge, where unless you have several cleanse abilities, you're pretty much toast.

>

> I agree with an earlier comment about not comparing one profession vs a broken one, but the fact is, WvW is full of players playing a broken profession, even after several nerfs, so what you refer to (correctly) as broken, is in reality, normal.

>

 

The issue is that it's nigh impossible to buff ranger to be effective while not being oppressive. It's the same with thief.

 

Buff support to make it useful in zergs comparable to guardian? Tank/boonbunker is one of the most resilient roaming and small-scale builds in the game. It'd be virtually unkillable with anything less than three or four other players running full glass.

 

Buff damage? Even core ranger has crazy amounts of damage and burst potential in small-scale combat and solid unblockable attack access. Non-meme builds would be two-shotting people before they could even engage.

 

Buff utility presence? How do you accomplish this without making stacking rangers oppressive akin to Scourge?

 

The new norm is powercreep and horrible design. The problem in WvW right now, especially for zergs, is we're in a deadlock because things are either broken or useless. The only actual fix is nerfing the powercreep, otherwise we just end up rotating classes being OP and anti-fun.

 

I understand the frustration about ranger not being a welcomed zerg profession, but no fair change can be made to the ranger to not make it this way. It's not viable solely because of the way other professions interact with it as well as the dominant specs being downright OP. That's kind of the situation holosmith is in right now since it never got the sPvP buffs; it's a top-tier and arguably overpowered roaming/dueling spec due to a lot of simply excessive power. It's still not good for zerg play. But what could be done to make it better for zergs and nerf its roaming potency? Ask yourself, "why's it even bad in zerg play?"

 

Nerfs just have to happen to other professions. It sucks, but that's really all ANet has left for an option without just breaking the class.

 

And history has repeated itself so many times: ANet is horrible at nerfing problem skills/traits and instead usually just takes roundabout nerfs while the profession/build at hand remains OP while cutting out diversity, and then if they nerf the OP build, it's usually in excess, leaving the profession/many builds screwed with no viable play pattern for several years.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > And not, a partialy dodged RF from a glass cannon ranger won't take even quarter of my 29k hp and 2.5k armor while i sit comfortingly with spikesof 8k dps and average of 6.5k dps (source arcdps ).

> > >

> > And that is the problem, at least for Power LB. Sure you can use barrage to help finish off downed players, to apply cripple, or to psychologically force players to reposition, but outside of that you are pretty much waiting for LB 2 to come off cooldown if your goal is to stay at range. If you aren't able to burst a target down with your RF, at best you've forced them to retreat into the zerg.

> >

> > Contrast that with getting bombed by a scourge, where unless you have several cleanse abilities, you're pretty much toast.

> >

> > I agree with an earlier comment about not comparing one profession vs a broken one, but the fact is, WvW is full of players playing a broken profession, even after several nerfs, so what you refer to (correctly) as broken, is in reality, normal.

> >

>

> The issue is that it's nigh impossible to buff ranger to be effective while not being oppressive. It's the same with thief.

>

> Buff support to make it useful in zergs comparable to guardian? Tank/boonbunker is one of the most resilient roaming and small-scale builds in the game. It'd be virtually unkillable with anything less than three or four other players running full glass.

>

> Buff damage? Even core ranger has crazy amounts of damage and burst potential in small-scale combat and solid unblockable attack access. Non-meme builds would be two-shotting people before they could even engage.

>

> Buff utility presence? How do you accomplish this without making stacking rangers oppressive akin to Scourge?

>

> The new norm is powercreep and horrible design. The problem in WvW right now, especially for zergs, is we're in a deadlock because things are either broken or useless. The only actual fix is nerfing the powercreep, otherwise we just end up rotating classes being OP and anti-fun.

>

> I understand the frustration about ranger not being a welcomed zerg profession, but no fair change can be made to the ranger to not make it this way. It's not viable solely because of the way other professions interact with it as well as the dominant specs being downright OP. That's kind of the situation holosmith is in right now since it never got the sPvP buffs; it's a top-tier and arguably overpowered roaming/dueling spec due to a lot of simply excessive power. It's still not good for zerg play. But what could be done to make it better for zergs and nerf its roaming potency? Ask yourself, "why's it even bad in zerg play?"

>

> Nerfs just have to happen to other professions. It sucks, but that's really all ANet has left for an option without just breaking the class.

>

> And history has repeated itself so many times: ANet is horrible at nerfing problem skills/traits and instead usually just takes roundabout nerfs while the profession/build at hand remains OP while cutting out diversity, and then if they nerf the OP build, it's usually in excess, leaving the profession/many builds screwed with no viable play pattern for several years.

 

In my view, the issue begins and ends with the lack of sustained DPS using the LB, which acts more like a utility weapon than a primary one. Power LB Ranger has a small burst window with Rapid Fire, and after that, what can they bring to the table?

 

For the Thief a SB is a utility weapon, but it has a better auto attack and better AoE abilities than a Ranger's LB =(

 

I don't think more damage overall is the key, because as you said, Ranger already has powerful burst, but something has to be done with at least LB 1.

 

 

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > > And not, a partialy dodged RF from a glass cannon ranger won't take even quarter of my 29k hp and 2.5k armor while i sit comfortingly with spikesof 8k dps and average of 6.5k dps (source arcdps ).

> > > >

> > > And that is the problem, at least for Power LB. Sure you can use barrage to help finish off downed players, to apply cripple, or to psychologically force players to reposition, but outside of that you are pretty much waiting for LB 2 to come off cooldown if your goal is to stay at range. If you aren't able to burst a target down with your RF, at best you've forced them to retreat into the zerg.

> > >

> > > Contrast that with getting bombed by a scourge, where unless you have several cleanse abilities, you're pretty much toast.

> > >

> > > I agree with an earlier comment about not comparing one profession vs a broken one, but the fact is, WvW is full of players playing a broken profession, even after several nerfs, so what you refer to (correctly) as broken, is in reality, normal.

> > >

> >

> > The issue is that it's nigh impossible to buff ranger to be effective while not being oppressive. It's the same with thief.

> >

> > Buff support to make it useful in zergs comparable to guardian? Tank/boonbunker is one of the most resilient roaming and small-scale builds in the game. It'd be virtually unkillable with anything less than three or four other players running full glass.

> >

> > Buff damage? Even core ranger has crazy amounts of damage and burst potential in small-scale combat and solid unblockable attack access. Non-meme builds would be two-shotting people before they could even engage.

> >

> > Buff utility presence? How do you accomplish this without making stacking rangers oppressive akin to Scourge?

> >

> > The new norm is powercreep and horrible design. The problem in WvW right now, especially for zergs, is we're in a deadlock because things are either broken or useless. The only actual fix is nerfing the powercreep, otherwise we just end up rotating classes being OP and anti-fun.

> >

> > I understand the frustration about ranger not being a welcomed zerg profession, but no fair change can be made to the ranger to not make it this way. It's not viable solely because of the way other professions interact with it as well as the dominant specs being downright OP. That's kind of the situation holosmith is in right now since it never got the sPvP buffs; it's a top-tier and arguably overpowered roaming/dueling spec due to a lot of simply excessive power. It's still not good for zerg play. But what could be done to make it better for zergs and nerf its roaming potency? Ask yourself, "why's it even bad in zerg play?"

> >

> > Nerfs just have to happen to other professions. It sucks, but that's really all ANet has left for an option without just breaking the class.

> >

> > And history has repeated itself so many times: ANet is horrible at nerfing problem skills/traits and instead usually just takes roundabout nerfs while the profession/build at hand remains OP while cutting out diversity, and then if they nerf the OP build, it's usually in excess, leaving the profession/many builds screwed with no viable play pattern for several years.

>

> In my view, the issue begins and ends with the lack of sustained DPS using the LB, which acts more like a utility weapon than a primary one. Power LB Ranger has a small burst window with Rapid Fire, and after that, what can they bring to the table?

>

> For the Thief a SB is a utility weapon, but it has a better auto attack and better AoE abilities than a Ranger's LB =(

>

> I don't think more damage overall is the key, because as you said, Ranger already has powerful burst, but something has to be done with at least LB 1.

>

>

>

 

Thief's shortbow is in no way superior to ranger longbow for anything pertaining to damage. Longbow AA does almost double the damage of thief's shortbow at max range and 30% more than thief's shortbow even at minium range. Thief's shortbow AA animation is almost 4x longer than the tooltip lists; it's only .05 second faster than ranger longbow.

 

The only real reason people even use shortbow on thief is skill 5. Skills 1-4 are done better on other weapons as well.

 

Ranger has some of the best ranged AA damage in the game, second only to rev. Long ranged damage is just simply not something ANet makes top-tier because of its innate safety. This was mentioned in the ranger CDI a few years ago.

 

Again, the issue is other professions. They pack too much sustain because unlike core necro/reaper, scourge breaks all the rules about how necro sustain is supposed to work to be balanced.

[aceofbass.2163]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> here in T1 EU

 

Well I think this is your problem. In T1 servers, roaming is bad because it's always blob fest or the roamers are like you said, in groups. Just your luck your server don't form up. I can think of a server in NA that is kept in t1 by other servers so they can farm them lol.

 

As for the soulbeast. Personally I don't think it's bad, more so when the soulbeast came out. Stance share is interesting but the real problem is not the ranger, but the players. When there is a ranger in the squad 100% that ranger will never swap to a melee weapon and pew pew their way even though a reflect shield is up which wrecks frontline. It's a guarantee specially true for inexperienced players in wvw.

 

So to eliminate the stress of segregating good rangers from inexperienced ones, they are just wiped across the board by zerg commanders. Sad because not long ago I used a soulbeast in wvw too.

[Xenash.1245]

I would think the reason is more so because of the rangers only real way of competing with ranged damage in through rapid fire that has a various obvious casting time that any decent player would just wait for before putting up their reflect. So in turn even if the ranger in question switched to a melee weapon instead of their ranged weapon it would essentially just be them taking themselves out of the fight in my humble opinion.

 

Other classes are able to focus their attention on other tasks while the enemy might be channeling something like a reflect in this case, a standard necro for example could switch to their staff if they're not already on it and start laying marks on the ground or simply corrupt the boons on a rather troublesome enemy player to enable his allies to get the kill. In short I guess I'm saying the ranger doesn't have much to do to push the situation in his favor or to aid his team in other ways that matter in those short/long periods of time compared to other classes.

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

Wait a minute ... since when did the game stop having meta builds so the complaint makes sense?

 

OP has just been hit with the reality of the game, that has existed since day 1. You **can** play what you want, but if you want what's best for a specific situation, you likely can't. Still, nothing has ever stopped anyone from playing whatever they want for any game mode.

[scerevisiae.1972]

Agree, it's a real shame, and very frustrating that one's preferred class is basically pigeon-holed out of 1/3rd of the game because of narrow-minded design.

 

It's not like it would have been difficult either, if traps could have been made 900 range or spirits immune to AOE damage it probably would have been fine.

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > The single biggest problem Ranger has is that it has no viable Weapon for zerg fight.

> > > Rev = Hammer

> > > Ele = Staff

> > > Nec = Staff

> > > Guard = Staff

> > >

> > > Warrior and Mesmer also have no viable Zerg Weapon but they have crazy strong utility skills.

> > > Something Ranger also lacks.

> > >

> > > Before Ranger can be good at zerging , one of the 2 has to change.

> >

> > Greatsword is useable, Soulbeast stance and support beast skill are certainly good utility skills. You can easily run in a zerg. You're just not optimal. You're not gonna lose fights just because you have a couple of stance share rangers in your squad.

>

> Stance share is borderline useful and completely outclassed by Firbrand and Ele support.

>

> Good rangers wont be a major drain on your zerg but it's still slots that can be filled by objectively better classes (by a large margin).

>

> It also requires GOOD rangers which is a very rare thing in WvW. Longbow allows people to be lazy and prevents them from learning proper positioning and skill use while camping in turbo glass gear.

 

I'm literally saying its not optimal. But the very fact we got stability sharing and other boons for a zerg means there is potential there, as opposed to saying we got nothing for zerging.

 

Why even bother mentioning that last part to a ranger main..

[urdriel.8496]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> It's not like it would have been difficult either, if traps could have been made 900 range or spirits immune to AOE damage it probably would have been fine.

 

Ranger trapper was dead when they changed the trait that made you able to throw traps from afar, and ranger trapper was in need of a REAL elite trap no that shit of

Entangle.....

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > > The single biggest problem Ranger has is that it has no viable Weapon for zerg fight.

> > > > Rev = Hammer

> > > > Ele = Staff

> > > > Nec = Staff

> > > > Guard = Staff

> > > >

> > > > Warrior and Mesmer also have no viable Zerg Weapon but they have crazy strong utility skills.

> > > > Something Ranger also lacks.

> > > >

> > > > Before Ranger can be good at zerging , one of the 2 has to change.

> > >

> > > Greatsword is useable, Soulbeast stance and support beast skill are certainly good utility skills. You can easily run in a zerg. You're just not optimal. You're not gonna lose fights just because you have a couple of stance share rangers in your squad.

> >

> > Stance share is borderline useful and completely outclassed by Firbrand and Ele support.

> >

> > Good rangers wont be a major drain on your zerg but it's still slots that can be filled by objectively better classes (by a large margin).

> >

> > It also requires GOOD rangers which is a very rare thing in WvW. Longbow allows people to be lazy and prevents them from learning proper positioning and skill use while camping in turbo glass gear.

>

> I'm literally saying its not optimal. But the very fact we got stability sharing and other boons for a zerg means there is potential there, as opposed to saying we got nothing for zerging.

>

> Why even bother mentioning that last part to a ranger main..

 

There's no "potential" unless anet buffs up the spec to make it on par with guardian or ele in terms of team buffing.

 

They won't.

 

> Why even bother mentioning that last part to a ranger main..

 

Because it's true.

Cope post all you want but the class is mediocre at best and most players just want to pew pew rather than boon share anyway which is why the class still gets virtually no respect in squads.