WvW has the longer shade cooldown. Will Anet Fix?

[Jski.6180]

There is a cost to pay to do both dmg support and cc all at the same time and on massive number of targets and on low cast time that are not effected by stuns. Plan out your bombs more and use the melee shade to your adages.

[aceofbass.2163]

@"misterman.1530"

> Range? What range? A GS Mesmer can pick off a Scourge without even getting close. A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. The Scourge has no range, and little mobility to rectify it. The people whining about this are bad players. Period. We also fight scourges. Easy to kill when you aren't terrible at the game.

 

Yeah that would be a case with roaming/pvp. In wvw the scourge is protected by reflects.

[Arioch.4810]

> @"velocity.4621" said:

> but it's true, they do stand in the freakin circle,....it's not our fault,

 

At least one thing is missing in the game that could make this argument work: Having circles appear before actual effect, giving players option to leave the area (Ele's meteor storm for instance - you shift and avoid part of damage) OR having a restriction regarding AoE placement - making it impossible to target area already occupied by opposing player(s).

 

Using instant abilities on a point already occupied by enemy player kinda does not depend on his choices, i think we can agree on that.

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"SlayerPerfect.8971" said:

> maybe i understand nerf on shade but 10->30 sec IS REALLY BIG NERF

>

> Maybe 15 second is good but 30 sec is no good

 

Even 15-20 seconds would have been fine. But 100% increase is way too much.

 

With this and I expect further needs to scourge in wvw, we will soon see ele and rev stacking

[Nimon.7840]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > C,c,c.

> > 

> > 

> >

> > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> >

> > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

>

> Range? What range? A GS Mesmer can pick off a Scourge without even getting close. A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. The Scourge has no range, and little mobility to rectify it. The people whining about this are bad players. Period. We also fight scourges. Easy to kill when you aren't terrible at the game.

 

Scourges are really easy to kill. You can even facetank their f5. That really shouldn't be possible

[Dreddo.9865]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> I'm not going to comment on PvP since i don't play it, but if you had seen the amount of Scourges running around in WvW, then you'd know that something is wrong with the class and will still be about 75% of the squad after this nerf the rest being Firebrands,Chronos and Weavers

I am playing WvW for the last two years and have never experienced a meta without necros, chills, bleeds, wells, or whatever AoE you wanna call it. Necro has always been the top pop in every WvW meta because of his ample AoE CC abilities. That nerf ain't gonna change that.

 

[StonePower.8321]

Kind of a lazy change plus it doesn't really fix the impact scourge has in wvw, but it's something I guess.

[Brujeria.7536]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > > Huh, how is the change more condi damage though? Because you believe they'd switch to small shades? No way that's gonna happen.

> > >

> > > Good players will switch. It is frustrating to have your Sand Shade with that interminable cool-down. This is yet another example of poor reaction to QQing. Don't kill the recharge, lower the damage. That would have, at least, made sense. Now, as someone mentioned, you will see MORE scourges, running smaller shades, in large zergs. They will hit for WAY more damage with more shades - albeit smaller - everywhere.

> > >

> > > Oddly - and tbh I've not seen all Anet players in WvW - but not one of them I have seen played a Necro. That should tell you something about how clueless they are about the class and its mechanics.

> >

> > Why would you lower the damage? The damage IS low already, both in the power department and in the condi department. Other classes can deal way more damage.

> >

> > Its simply a l2p issue that the playerbase refuses to learn, and anet keeps encouraging them by these pointless nerfs.

>

> The problem with Scourge was never it's damage. What makes Scourge so strong is that it brings cleave + boonrip + mass debuffing + team support. You need to look at the entire package not fixate on a single attribute.

 

So what? an ele or firebrand does the same thing instead of boonrip and debuffing it gives massive boons and heals and better CC.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"velocity.4621" said:

> but it's true, they do stand in the freakin circle,....it's not our fault, and no matter what class i'm playing, i super-rarely die to scourge, i main necro for so long, i know how to anticipate it...and there no reason you can't, i died mostly to SB, rangers, DE, and mesmers...

>

> so, are you sure scourge's sands is the problem? i don't think so...

>

> and i believe these whining people also die to old power necro / reaper's wells, because they love to stand in the red circle, what, you want to make smaller also? or make it have 100sec cooldown?

 

Imagine wells had ammo of three, 10 seconds CD and lasted for 10 seconds.

 

Scourge mains seem even more biased than mesmers. At least, they mostly agree on their OP'ness... even though we can all agree Anet rarely hits the core of the problems with their changes.

[Dreethero.4097]

So after some math this change is : greater shades no longer hit more people than normal shades. So the necromancer problem will be still the same, : group up with 60 more ppl and instant kill everything (yes you have a 30 sec cd now, but it's ok the ennmy will die in 10 sec). The funny thing it's that thing is right as well for every AoE class damage like elmentalist or revenants.

 

But now in small scale fight, the necromancer is worst in evry aspect of his role (less boon corruption, less damage over time, less shield ects) because he can touch less people (if they don't dodge thos heavy red zone on the ground). AND keep all his actuals, weakness (lack of stab, lack of mobility) that makes him an easy prey for evry focus party.

So i suppose with this change that Anet want's more blobling and less small scales fight... Sad.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > C,c,c.

> > > 

> > > 

> > >

> > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > >

> > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> >

> > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

>

> FB casts reflect. ded lol.

>

> It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

 

Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

[Marxx.5021]

In PvP that change hits blood sage sustain most. I guess even with Demonic Lore you get more sustain over time now. Of course this means switching to curses and some shadefire type build. Well in solo queue scourge is less and less viable. I liked the idea of support scourge after tempest got destroyed. Now thats over as well I guess :/

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > @"velocity.4621" said:

> > but it's true, they do stand in the freakin circle,....it's not our fault,

>

> At least one thing is missing in the game that could make this argument work: Having circles appear before actual effect, giving players option to leave the area (Ele's meteor storm for instance - you shift and avoid part of damage)

 

Meteor Shower Ring does show up before the meteors actually start to rain down, I would rather say it's hard to see the ring with all the other AoE that is being put all over the place, Lava font is the same, the AoE appears and about a second later, it starts to damage.

 

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

30s cooldown? seriously? that is as long as meteor shower. And scourge players are complaining? 10s was completely ridiculous. 30s is still not bad.

[Justine.6351]

I don't play scourge nor do I like fighting them but a 3x nerf is pretty obnoxious. Please revenant, never become super meta ;-(

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> 30s cooldown? seriously? that is as long as meteor shower. And scourge players are complaining? 10s was completely ridiculous. 30s is still not bad.

 

Comparing _meteor shower_ to _manifest sand shade_ is quite strange. You could maybe compare _desert shroud_ to _meteor shower_ but _manifest sand shade_ is something totally different.

 

It's like a necromancer going to the elementalist forum to ask _lava font_ to have a 30 second CD because _well of suffering_ have a 30 second CD and seem to do the exact same thing.

[Nexxus.5347]

I'm tired of the Necro/scourge Nerfing in PvP/WvW. It seems the complainers are usually players that want to stand in one place and pew pew pew. Heres my complaint... the P/P thief burning my scourge down in 3 seconds and then disappearing. Or the never ending onslaught of Mesmer clones that kill me in 3 seconds. Where are those "Fixes".

[Patrick.2987]

> @"Nexxus.5347" said:

> I'm tired of the Necro/scourge Nerfing in PvP/WvW. It seems the complainers are usually players that want to stand in one place and pew pew pew. Heres my complaint... the P/P thief burning my scourge down in 3 seconds and then disappearing. Or the never ending onslaught of Mesmer clones that kill me in 3 seconds. Where are those "Fixes".

 

Tell your firebrand he is trash and replace him.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > > C,c,c.

> > > > 

> > > > 

> > > >

> > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > > >

> > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> > >

> > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

> >

> > FB casts reflect. ded lol.

> >

> > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

>

> Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

 

SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger.

 

Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP.

 

It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it.

 

Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown.

 

Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > > > C,c,c.

> > > > > 

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > > > >

> > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> > > >

> > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

> > >

> > > FB casts reflect. ded lol.

> > >

> > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

> >

> > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

>

> SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger.

>

> Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP.

>

> It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it.

>

> Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown.

>

> Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has.

 

Fb be dead by the time its over.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > > > C,c,c.

> > > > > 

> > > > > 

> > > > >

> > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > > > >

> > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> > > >

> > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

> > >

> > > FB casts reflect. ded lol.

> > >

> > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

> >

> > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

>

> SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger.

>

> Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP.

>

> It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it.

>

> Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown.

>

> Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has.

 

I didn't reply to him because... he mentioned the 25% movement speed signet. :# Thanks for the effort though.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > > > > C,c,c.

> > > > > > 

> > > > > > 

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> > > > >

> > > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

> > > >

> > > > FB casts reflect. ded lol.

> > > >

> > > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

> > >

> > > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

> >

> > SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger.

> >

> > Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP.

> >

> > It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it.

> >

> > Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown.

> >

> > Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has.

>

> I didn't reply to him because... he mentioned the 25% movement speed signet. :# Thanks for the effort though.

 

I guess you forgot about the 6s unblockable. Easy mistake to make.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > > > > > > C,c,c.

> > > > > > > 

> > > > > > > 

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > > > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > > > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

> > > > >

> > > > > FB casts reflect. ded lol.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

> > > >

> > > > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt.

> > >

> > > SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger.

> > >

> > > Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP.

> > >

> > > It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it.

> > >

> > > Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown.

> > >

> > > Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has.

> >

> > I didn't reply to him because... he mentioned the 25% movement speed signet. :# Thanks for the effort though.

>

> I guess you forgot about the 6s unblockable. Easy mistake to make.

 

Let me tell you something: In an open society, people will find the way to solve a problem if there is one. That is the ideal behind free market structures, for example.

 

Do you see zergs stuffed with Rangers, each one oneshotting one guy? No? There _usually_ is a reason for that. ;)

[Kamskill.5901]

I think they should have nerfed the shade's corruption to just ripping boons, it would've been a good nerf tbh.

[Conqueror.3682]

So my question is, is good to run a support scourge wth this nerf?