Malkom.5607 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I know its currently only temporary, but this full no downstate seems too callous to me. What about the times we have to beat someone, down them , but want to let them get back up so we can both go our separate ways. I'm a very poor player 1v1, but occasionally meet newbies in WvW and there is no satisfaction in wiping them out, especially when they are a long way from their spawn point. Perhaps there are some trade off to keep both sides happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBandit.7031 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I voted to keep it but I'd only like to keep it with better balance. My experience with WvW during this week has been a lot of "one shot or be one shotted". And with me not having fully optimized gear it's usually being one shotted. But then again no one will rez me while solo roaming anyway and probably not if I stray too far from groups anyway. Also, arrow cart spam got buffed with this change but that is an easy fix. Outnumbered fights are so much more possible with this, both in small groups/solo and with large groups, which is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 For all the discussion about pro and cons of downstate I would like to suggest some changes which would make no downstate more viable as a permanent solution: 1) A mechanic to limit the running time between zerg and map waypoint. 2) A DPS cap to prevent instant kills. In what form is that very important but the instant kills from classes like thiefs and mirages, and to lesser degree rangers and warriors need to be addressed. 3) A limit to the roamer mechanic of high dps attack and quick disengage. It was not fun with downstate, and it is even less fun with out it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mizhas.8536 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"Bugabuga.9721" said: > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > Keeping it only serves to feed massive zerg balls. It's a trash mechanic in any game mode. It needs a full on removal from the game. > > Removing downed state only serves to feed massive zerg balls. Because in huge numbers comes security. Running with 2-3 people? Thief/glass mesmer will insta-kill one, runs away, comes back, kills another, then the last one. Run in a 25 man blob? You probably will be ressed. Bigger zerg, more safety for karmatraining Your argument is pretty twisted. If numbers go up in one side, they will go up on the other one. 1 vs 3, 10 vs 30, 20 vs 60. We have enough unstopable groups of 30-50 people this days. What we need is a way to counter them using skill. If you are downed in a big group it is easier to get rezzed than being on an small group. So your argument is not valid here. In fact, making someone die inside a zerg, would encourage more "assasin" style gameplay and not just zerging. GW2 need this desperately so "the meta" can evolve a little bit outside of "the bigger blob wins" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mizhas.8536 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > Finally got my last diamond box for the week, normally i repeat several times, not this week I could not wait to be done with ticket cap. > Ive seen 2 sides of these arguments in the multiple hours ive spent in wvw this week. Large experienced groups and small experienced havoc squads hate this while the cheeseball pvp gank squads (looking at you Mirages and Daredevils) seem to love it since their OMGRUF......INGKIDDINGME burst damage ends the fight the moment they come out of stealth without the danger of someone coming back up and spanking them when they're out of CD's (barring ofc the stupid fast escape they make when any sign of losing rears it's ugly head) > So, long story short, from my observations of chats, the broken a$$ gank builds are broken-er this week and they love it. Strategically played groups with experienced players are dissatisfied because you spend more time looking for a fight thats over in a minute or two IF they stand and fight, alot are just running back to the AC's and hiding. Well, the real fact here is that those classes are doing what they are designed to do. Downed state won´t save you in small scale but in large fights is where this mechanic would shine allow smaller group to really hurt big slow tunneled vision player groups. In my opinon GW2 WvW large scale meta is stupid since all 50 players only have to throw everything at 1 point to kill. Theese changes would encourage more cooperation in small scale (so you can avoid being ganked) and also more ways of countering big groups even when outnumbered. I guess that people that came out to WvW to walk around camps and towers while farming pips will be completely against anything that may make their farm more difficult but hey, this is WvW, the beauty of the gameplay is that once you leave respawn danger is everywhere. Downstate just removes that feeling when not playing alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyro.6083 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 In small group fights the no downstate is making the game ultra boring due to having to run back to the group when you pull too many guards during a fight. Also, I'm sure a lot of you have spent hundreds of dollars trying to get the best finishers over the years! All this is doing is promoting Zerglings and running from fights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirdyy.1648 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"flyro.6083" said: >Also, I'm sure a lot of you have spent hundreds of dollars trying to get the best finishers over the years! Before POF and HOT i often finish 10+ enemys with a deadly cute quaggan within 2 hours playtime. Was always fun for me and my crew. And getting killed with a giant chest and a horrible singer was fun. But after the conditions were out of control, it seems the players going from life to death without any downstate because of 40+ conditions. Probably solution could be loosing all conditions in downstate or only tick with 1 stack condi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaskara.4902 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I hate this event, please do not keep this "No Downed State" !!! It's awful and not fun!!! There are a lot more pew pew classes in wvw because of this event, players do not want to play squad, they get into squad are ALL full zerk! ouch x.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugabuga.9721 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Mizhas.8536" said: > > @"Bugabuga.9721" said: > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said: > > > Keeping it only serves to feed massive zerg balls. It's a trash mechanic in any game mode. It needs a full on removal from the game. > > > > Removing downed state only serves to feed massive zerg balls. Because in huge numbers comes security. Running with 2-3 people? Thief/glass mesmer will insta-kill one, runs away, comes back, kills another, then the last one. Run in a 25 man blob? You probably will be ressed. Bigger zerg, more safety for karmatraining > > Your argument is pretty twisted. If numbers go up in one side, they will go up on the other one. 1 vs 3, 10 vs 30, 20 vs 60. We have enough unstopable groups of 30-50 people this days. What we need is a way to counter them using skill. > If you are downed in a big group it is easier to get rezzed than being on an small group. So your argument is not valid here. In fact, making someone die inside a zerg, would encourage more "assasin" style gameplay and not just zerging. > > GW2 need this desperately so "the meta" can evolve a little bit outside of "the bigger blob wins" Hey, if your choice is "band together with 20 people or die to random roaming thief with 3" what will you do? I mean maybe not you personally but average player who's not a super pvp pro? Safety in either skill or numbers. And numbers are easier to come by than going through meat-grinder and try to run back from spawn every time. So I presume it means most unskilled or lower-skilled players will go into largest group possible, and that largest group will also prefer to circle around and pew-pew from the distance (as engaging in melee fight = higher chance of being insta-killed and thus lower number advantage). At that point there will be enough people "in the back" who can try to res dead player once poison is off, so lone thief/mesmer will have to go hunting somewhere else. It also means that highly organized snipe squad to attack commander will be way more effective (if poison fields can be placed on the dead body long enough) to skew the fight. "It's all fun! As long as you're not the one who gets moa-ed and killed every few minutes, ahahaha" Also how exactly "meta" would "evolve" beyond two extremes of "play something that has stealth and can insta-kill another player" and "just be in a big zerg as you are now"? I mean we know pretty well that thief or burst-shatter mesmer can kill almost any build that still capable of inflicting damage when player is not suspecting it (save for few auto-traits that will trigger on too much damage or running with, like, rune of rebirth or something, but cool-downs are not kind these days) so I am not sure how exactly meta supposed to "evolve" where encounters are way more deadly. Everyone but thief/mesmer goes full tank? Which means more rounds of re-balancing will be needed. Or changes to stealth. Thief can do without stealth, right? We should have a week of "I see you" where stealth simply means you look like transparent glass but still visible. I'm sure _that_ change will be loved by the majority ;) No more surprise attacks. Show your skill, attack other players head-on! (thief can probably still run away, but insta-dead from full stealth will be harder) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechVampyre.2903 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > Hey, if your choice is "band together with 20 people or die to random roaming thief with 3" what will you do? > I mean maybe not you personally but average player who's not a super pvp pro? Safety in either skill or numbers. And numbers are easier to come by than going through meat-grinder and try to run back from spawn every time. > > So I presume it means most unskilled or lower-skilled players will go into largest group possible, and that largest group will also prefer to circle around and pew-pew from the distance (as engaging in melee fight = higher chance of being insta-killed and thus lower number advantage). At that point there will be enough people "in the back" who can try to res dead player once poison is off, so lone thief/mesmer will have to go hunting somewhere else. > > It also means that highly organized snipe squad to attack commander will be way more effective (if poison fields can be placed on the dead body long enough) to skew the fight. "It's all fun! As long as you're not the one who gets moa-ed and killed every few minutes, ahahaha" > > Also how exactly "meta" would "evolve" beyond two extremes of "play something that has stealth and can insta-kill another player" and "just be in a big zerg as you are now"? I mean we know pretty well that thief or burst-shatter mesmer can kill almost any build that still capable of inflicting damage when player is not suspecting it (save for few auto-traits that will trigger on too much damage or running with, like, rune of rebirth or something, but cool-downs are not kind these days) so I am not sure how exactly meta supposed to "evolve" where encounters are way more deadly. Everyone but thief/mesmer goes full tank? Which means more rounds of re-balancing will be needed. Or changes to stealth. Thief can do without stealth, right? We should have a week of "I see you" where stealth simply means you look like transparent glass but still visible. I'm sure _that_ change will be loved by the majority ;) No more surprise attacks. Show your skill, attack other players head-on! (thief can probably still run away, but insta-dead from full stealth will be harder) correct me if im wrong but it totally sounds as if you dont even intend to get any better as a player. so why not just move on to pve and join a zone blob to farm bags? and if you are 3 people dying over and over again by a single thief you have a third choice. keep dying to him over and over again until you can beat him. then run with only 2 into him until you can beat him and finally try it on your own. even cheesy p/d thieves are beatable without using any anti stealth skills. just needs practice. if someone dont want to practice or is incapable of doing so for whatever reason than its totally ok to join a zerg for a safer experience of wvw. but it still is a pvp mode and people who practice more are sometimes better than you or me. also you should keep an eye on your surroundings. especially in open field you should almost always see a thief from a mile away. im sure pretty much no thief will stealth himself randomly all the time without even seeing an enemy. and if he can see you in most cases he wont immediately stealth so chances are good that you can see him coming which will make things way easier for you. one really funny tactic for example is: when detecting a thief running towards you just pretend that you havent seen him and keep running straight forward to then dodge their steal and kill them in the next second :) im myself thief and get rarely in one combo down from another thief as those super high damaging builds sacrifice just so much which makes these builds too impractical in general wvw and super easy to kill especially with two others around. i for my part and surely many others too would have no problem with a no stealth week by the way. hope i was not too strict with you. i sometimes get a little upset when thief gets blamed for something from people before they even look for their own mistakes. have a nice day o/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"MechVampyre.2903" said: > and if you are 3 people dying over and over again by a single thief you have a third choice. keep dying to him over and over again until you can beat him. > then run with only 2 into him until you can beat him and finally try it on your own. even cheesy p/d thieves are beatable without using any anti stealth skills. just needs practice. That's not how WvW works. The thief will adapt just as good and wont even engage if you start to come close to beating him. And what if you can beat him, but your friends cant? And he only targets your friends? Telling everyone that "yeah sure you can win, you just have to be a top tier PvP player and better than all your opponents, no problem!" is still the same as saying get good or get out. Everyone isnt that good. Everyone cant become that good. Downed state in this example allows for flex in the varying skill levels, not to mention builds and classes. Now after 5 days of no downed state I still only see one area where I think the positive effects outweigh the negative and that's pretty much in 50+ player engagements of uncommanded cloud vs commanded zerg/guild. Even if the cloud suffer losses you dont need that many good players in the cloud to start to wear down an enemy that cannot exploit their coordinated advantage of necro teleports, healbots and ressing downed. That's a massive advantage normally but even then it wasnt an impossible fight, just much harder. If WvW was only about that kind of fight, yeah cool without downed state. It's not though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmThor.3806 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 My vote is to keep no downed state and make the necessary adjustments to accommodate it. I'm not counting on Anet to do this though :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"jdmThor.3806" said: > My vote is to keep no downed state and make the necessary adjustments to accomodate it. I'm not counting on Anet to do this though :) Which is basicly like jumping from a burning building under the assumption that the firemen below will catch you and you are making the 911 call on the way down to confirm this. Again, this sort of reasoning almost lead to the death of WvW in the DBL community voting debacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuickFox.3826 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just an observation: It is funny for me to see that there are so many threads with discussions about [whether](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43473/no-downstate-another-try#latest "whether") [we](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43298/downstate-rewards-only-one-kind-of-player#latest "we") [should](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43443/the-ultimate-downstate-fix-with-the-exception-of-no-downstate#latest "should") [have](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43331/no-downstate-has-been-a-massive-breath-of-fresh-air-in-an-absurdly-stagnant-game-mode#latest "have") [permanent](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43472/downstate-downstate-downstate#latest "permanent") [no](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43354/a-non-downstate-post#latest "no")-[downstate](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43283/the-effects-of-no-downstate-in-wvw-why-players-feel-the-way-they-do#latest "downstate") [in](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43185/do-not-keep-no-downstate#latest "in") [WvW](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43445/um-ya-downed-state-idea#latest "WvW") [or](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43351/keep-downstate-but-start-at-only-25-health#latest "or") [not](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43416/my-2c-on-how-to-adjust-downstate#latest "not") while: 1. ArenaNet clearly announced this as a [temporary gameplay variation](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/world-vs-world-weeklong-bonus/ "temporary gameplay variation") for the duration of the event. 2. ArenaNet has yet to participate in any of these discussions, telling me they do not have plans to make it more than a gameplay variation for the event week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 This forum has significantly more noobish zerglings than pvp'ers, so of course they'll want downstate to carry them everywhere they go. If possible, i bet you the same people would ask Anet to hold their hands while playing any pvp related game modes because its very dangerous to play multiplayer............................ This catering to casuals ruin the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverkung.9127 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 "No down state" is fun but use to come time to time ,change some taste and feeling to play. But no need to keep it forever. AND MORE need more idea... to add "???state" in WvW. exsample "Faster than light" . everything can walk2leg have superspeed. yup player too. "Gravity punisher" . Jump = take falling dmg. Player foot not touch ground = get falling dmg more high more punish. "It hot today" . not walk on road get burn,BURN BURN!!everywhere!! "Brave no brain" . No evade no starmina ,triple HP. "Flow like butterfly" . Half HP / Starmina boost 300%. "Real men no need armor" . Def and toughess. = 0 . "Leave me alone" . player stay close eachother( range300) take passive dmg overtime. "Hold my hand mate" . player stay alone take passive dmg overtime.Need another player stay in range1200. "Lady first" . Female char status x2. "Getleman please" . Male char status x2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Keep it please, it's being the best teacher for newbs who run in front line like "I don't care if I die at first, I'll rally later". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Zaraki.5784" said: > Keep it please, it's being the best teacher for newbs who run in front line like "I don't care if I die at first, I'll rally later". Well that was the ideal tobuilt gw2, reason easy to damage output needs no skill as well for most gimmicks, so downstate was built for exactly that u said. game4badies :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechVampyre.2903 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"MechVampyre.2903" said: > > and if you are 3 people dying over and over again by a single thief you have a third choice. keep dying to him over and over again until you can beat him. > > then run with only 2 into him until you can beat him and finally try it on your own. even cheesy p/d thieves are beatable without using any anti stealth skills. just needs practice. > > That's not how WvW works. The thief will adapt just as good and wont even engage if you start to come close to beating him. And what if you can beat him, but your friends cant? And he only targets your friends? > > Telling everyone that "yeah sure you can win, you just have to be a top tier PvP player and better than all your opponents, no problem!" is still the same as saying get good or get out. Everyone isnt that good. Everyone cant become that good. Downed state in this example allows for flex in the varying skill levels, not to mention builds and classes. im not telling anyone to become a pro. im telling that when entering a pvp mode its about facing real people. if you dont want to improve or cant improve for some reasons its perfectly fine. then there will be just a lot of people that are better than you. you can join a zerg and have a great time. theres absolutely no problem about it. from my experiences ingame i just have to say please stop complaining about getting outplayed while at the same time refusing to learn from your own mistakes. theres also so so many passive stuff you can trait for or utilize that will protect you from getting one shot.. its incredibly ridiculous. and you know what? you dont even have to spend silver gold or real money to trait for it. it just needs you three seconds for some clicks before leaving your spawn. so no i dont want to tell people to become super amazing pro players. like in real life if you do some kind of sports but dont train for it dont expect to win a competition and complain about the ones that win. if you go to work but are just lazy dont blame a hardworking one for earning more money than you. in comparison to the beginnings of this game its now so forgivable for new or not so good players. even if downstate would stay out of this game. over the years so many passives strong elites etc. found their way into the game (and still will find their way) that it in some way it equalizes for a no downstate future wvw. oh i forgot something. saying i dont want to improve because my enemy can improve too is actually not an argument. thats not how life works. at least not in an enjoyable way. well this all is only my very own personal opinion on this and i can also understand some contra arguments. not so much those arguments in an pvp area about refusing to improve but to get carried in this or that way due a mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmThor.3806 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"jdmThor.3806" said: > > My vote is to keep no downed state and make the necessary adjustments to accomodate it. I'm not counting on Anet to do this though :) > Which is basicly like jumping from a burning building under the assumption that the firemen below will catch you and you are making the 911 call on the way down to confirm this. > > Again, this sort of reasoning almost lead to the death of WvW in the DBL community voting debacle. I have no idea what you're talking about. I just wanted to participate in this thread by voting and posting my preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilrik.6320 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 The only advantage to no-downed seems to be in the small group skirmish with a 2 v 1 or 3 v 1 which gives some chance for the 1 to pick off the numbers of the larger party before the rally. Overall, I like the mechanics of downed as a chance to get back up or be brought up by an ally. I think it makes the game more exciting if you have 2 people downed on either side. Do you go for the stomp or revive your comrade? I have had a 2 v 2 where I was downed and was getting revived, I downed one of them and the other attacked me and my ally eventually downing him as well. He goes to stomp me, but me and the ally rally off of killing his downed ally. We down him and win the skirmish...just plain fun. It's intense having a sort of "Hail Mary Pass" chance at turning a fight around. The downed skills offer unique dynamics that as stated are built into utilities and traitlines as well. I suppose it's true that not all downed skills are equal, but I play all the professions and I love **Vengeance, Lick Wounds, Life Leech, Fear, Vapor Form, Search and Rescue, Battle Standard, Nature's Renewal**...etc. Someone mentioned that 90% of the time you are dead anyway, but those other 10% of the times it gets turned around is what keeps me coming back to wvw. If they truly want to test the overall opinion of a no downed-state wvw, they should make it a permanent feature on desert borderland or eotm without the xp/track bonuses. If it breathes life into those maps, then there is something to it at least as far as the general consensus is concerned and I'll concede happily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buy Some Apples.6390 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 And what about all the finishers people paid for? Some with real money! No downed state = no stomping = no more finishers Again this was a silly gimmick run by anet to bring something "fresh" to the game for a short time. Luckily most people are saying No, so hopefully the devs wont make yet another silly mistake for this mode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrael.6859 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 > @"zerorogue.9410" said: > I myself have been enjoying this change immensely. That said, It shouldn't stay. Yes it makes combat a lot simpler, but that has made spike builds king. Downstate allowed battles to be fought with skill rather than who could hit the hardest. > > I am a fan of these mod weeks. I would love to see a 150% hp week and maybe a no RI week. Numbers advantage rezzing isn't skill. The best thing about this change is that it has allowed 1v2 and 1v3 fights where you can come out the winner, but previously they would have just power rezzed. Fighting stuff 1v2 or 1v3 before where they had a support FB to just rezz the DPS was crap, but those fights now can be won, it's been a roamers dream, had so many good 1vX fights that I never would have had a chance to win before. People that are saying _'oh I get blown up by a random stealth class while roaming'_ well **if you instantly die now, then when the changes roll back you'll just instantly go to downstate instead.... and you'll still die!** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrael.6859 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 > @"flyro.6083" said: > In small group fights the no downstate is making the game ultra boring due to having to run back to the group when you pull too many guards during a fight. Also, I'm sure a lot of you have spent hundreds of dollars trying to get the best finishers over the years! All this is doing is promoting Zerglings and running from fights! Lol, gems on finishers is your argument for keeping the downed state in WvW?... People barely get finished in WvW anyway, they just get cleaved down or drowned in Shades. I see about 1 finisher go off an hour, even 1v1 it's usually easier to just cleave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinas Dragonbane.2978 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 no down-state should become part of being outmanned, or if a server has too many players in one zone compared their enemies they get that as a debuff where they die instead of down but the smaller groups will not be affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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