maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"NotOverlyCheesy.9427" said: > I don't mind content specific currencies being tradeable. If there are rewards you want with a particular currency and nobody does needed content, the currency price will go up. At that point it'd be good to do said content to gain a lot of gold. A very good reason for nobody doing some specific content is if it's not rewarding enough. And to make sure all content is rewarding, at least to some extent, you give them unique rewards. Otherwise they'd have to compete with the best farms out there, like SW RIBA, or AB ML when it was a thing, or Palawadan or . You are mistaken, if the currency price goes up, you'll just need to run some more of the same to get the gold needed to acquire what you want. Until the supply reaches zero of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > Think of it this way: > > > > > > > - the short term gain you might have from selling your LI will be of little use or fun to you when big flocks of players leave the game with nothing to work towards any longer > > > > > > > > > > > > How big these flocks would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it matter? > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > Okay if you say so. > > > > So, are you going to answer my question or you keep trying to market your empty statement about "big flocks"? > > Wasn't this a topic for people to express their opinion about a suggestion? Why are you transforming it in another awful argument? Why are you taking such a belligerant attitude? o_O He said LI trading would cause "big flocks" of players leaving the game because of lack of goal. I'm asking about his estimates, he started this argument, he should provide substance to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotOverlyCheesy.9427 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"NotOverlyCheesy.9427" said: > > I don't mind content specific currencies being tradeable. If there are rewards you want with a particular currency and nobody does needed content, the currency price will go up. At that point it'd be good to do said content to gain a lot of gold. > > A very good reason for nobody doing some specific content is if it's not rewarding enough. And to make sure all content is rewarding, at least to some extent, you give them unique rewards. Otherwise they'd have to compete with the best farms out there, like SW RIBA, or AB ML when it was a thing, or Palawadan or . > You are mistaken, if the currency price goes up, you'll just need to run some more of the same to get the gold needed to acquire what you want. > Until the supply reaches zero of course. Or you could run the content nobody likes to run and make hella dough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > Can any type of content survive without gated rewards? Would anyone play in Draconis Mons (the least popular according to polls) LS3 episode map if they could get the rewards of the episode by farming Winterberries? > > > > I'm really happy you bring up this example because map currencies can be easily gained by WvW and PvP tracks. Both these modes are basically afk fiestas so no gameplay is involved either way. > > > > I wonder which one is more efficient, afk in WVW/PVP or roaming around the episode maps gathering resources on multiple characters. Haven't tried it, so I don't know. It isn't matter of efficiency, it's a matter of choice - for example it's more efficient in developed countries to take bonus job and simply buy gold than farming it every evening, but people still farm gold. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > You are saying that the player versus player content (WVW/PVP) in this game has no gameplay involved, which is interesting because some claim that when other players are involved it's more challenging content, and requires better rewards than easy, predictable, scripted PVE encounters. I will keep this in mind for future threads. People share their opinions on daily basis here as it's intended design for forums. Since GW2 provides no prestige in any type of content, there is actually no reason for unique, nontradable rewards in any part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > Can any type of content survive without gated rewards? Would anyone play in Draconis Mons (the least popular according to polls) LS3 episode map if they could get the rewards of the episode by farming Winterberries? > > I'm really happy you bring up this example because map currencies can be easily gained by WvW and PvP tracks. Both these modes are basically afk fiestas so no gameplay is involved either way. > > "easily gained" means 6-8 hours of grinding for mostly 50 currency of LS3 maps, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > It isn't matter of efficiency, it's a matter of choice - Choice depends on efficiency. The only reason SW RIBA, AB ML and Palawadan were overfarmed is for efficiency. Same with CoF P1 endless farm back in the day. Choice plays a very small role, it's all about the most efficient access to the same reward. > People share their opinions on daily basis here as it's intended design for forums. Since GW2 provides no prestige in any type of content, there is actually no reason for unique, nontradable rewards in any part of the game. Yet that's how the game works up to now for every bit of content... it's the major design choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > Can any type of content survive without gated rewards? Would anyone play in Draconis Mons (the least popular according to polls) LS3 episode map if they could get the rewards of the episode by farming Winterberries? > > > > I'm really happy you bring up this example because map currencies can be easily gained by WvW and PvP tracks. Both these modes are basically afk fiestas so no gameplay is involved either way. > > > > > > "easily gained" means 6-8 hours of grinding for mostly 50 currency of LS3 maps, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... "Easy" isn't equal to fast, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > It isn't matter of efficiency, it's a matter of choice - > Choice depends on efficiency. The only reason SW RIBA, AB ML and Palawadan were overfarmed is for efficiency. Same with CoF P1 endless farm back in the day. Choice plays a very small role, it's all about the most efficient access to the same reward. > > > People share their opinions on daily basis here as it's intended design for forums. Since GW2 provides no prestige in any type of content, there is actually no reason for unique, nontradable rewards in any part of the game. > Yet that's how the game works up to now for every bit of content... it's the major design choice. > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > Can any type of content survive without gated rewards? Would anyone play in Draconis Mons (the least popular according to polls) LS3 episode map if they could get the rewards of the episode by farming Winterberries? > > > > > > I'm really happy you bring up this example because map currencies can be easily gained by WvW and PvP tracks. Both these modes are basically afk fiestas so no gameplay is involved either way. > > > > > > > > > > "easily gained" means 6-8 hours of grinding for mostly 50 currency of LS3 maps, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... > > "Easy" isn't equal to fast, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... Yeah, YOU go on ahead and afk for 6-8 hours. Tell me how it went! And, no, you wont gain by afking in wvw anything faster or easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > Can any type of content survive without gated rewards? Would anyone play in Draconis Mons (the least popular according to polls) LS3 episode map if they could get the rewards of the episode by farming Winterberries? > > > > > > > > I'm really happy you bring up this example because map currencies can be easily gained by WvW and PvP tracks. Both these modes are basically afk fiestas so no gameplay is involved either way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "easily gained" means 6-8 hours of grinding for mostly 50 currency of LS3 maps, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... > > > > "Easy" isn't equal to fast, but whatever suits one's narrative, I guess... > > Yeah, YOU go on ahead and afk for 6-8 hours. Tell me how it went! And, no, you wont gain by afking in wvw anything faster or easier. Farming veterans in WvW to get participation and then afk most of the time and kick a camp once every 10 minutes to not hit decay. The only easier thing to do would be setting up a bot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) That's irrelevant. We both know that playing a meta build, or even playing well, isn't required to play any of the most efficient farms in the game, you don't need an efficient build to play SW RIBA, AB ML or Palawadan. Yet those attract the majority of this playerbase which we both also know. It's all about efficiency nothing else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) > > That's irrelevant. We both know that playing a meta build, or even playing well, isn't required to play any of the most efficient farms in the game, you don't need an efficient build to play SW RIBA, AB ML or Palawadan. Yet those attract the majority of this playerbase which we both also know. It's all about efficiency nothing else Raids also do not require efficiency. All those gates are created and enforced by players, not the game. Efficiency is irrelevant to achieve anything, you can play efficient to get things faster, but you won't get better things because you are better player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) > > > > That's irrelevant. We both know that playing a meta build, or even playing well, isn't required to play any of the most efficient farms in the game, you don't need an efficient build to play SW RIBA, AB ML or Palawadan. Yet those attract the majority of this playerbase which we both also know. It's all about efficiency nothing else > > Raids also do not require efficiency. All those gates are created and enforced by players, not the game. Efficiency is irrelevant to achieve anything, you can play efficient to get things faster, but you won't get better things because you are better player. Can you go clear all wings with 100% minstrel geared players and come back with video proof said achievment please. Since raids do not require efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) > > > > That's irrelevant. We both know that playing a meta build, or even playing well, isn't required to play any of the most efficient farms in the game, you don't need an efficient build to play SW RIBA, AB ML or Palawadan. Yet those attract the majority of this playerbase which we both also know. It's all about efficiency nothing else > > Raids also do not require efficiency. All those gates are created and enforced by players, not the game. Efficiency is irrelevant to achieve anything, you can play efficient to get things faster, but you won't get better things because you are better player. I think you misunderstand the difference between build efficiency and farm efficiency. Build efficiency doesn't really matter in easy, farmable content, it becomes way more important when the content gets harder. But build efficiency is completely beside the point of unique currencies. The most efficient farm is the farm that gives the highest amount of rewards, in the lowest amount of time, as examples, SW RIBA, AB ML, Palawadan, CoF P1 (old days), EOTM (when karma trains were there) and so on. The only way for other content to compete, and stay alive, is to have unique/exclusive rewards, this has been the main design choice of this game for a very long time, since the very first living world episode. As for the last part, you are absolutely right, you won't get better things because you are better player. This is painfully true in WVW/PVP, the so called "competitive" forms of this game, where the best players of both modes do not get anything better than anyone else. Good play isn't really rewarded in either of the "competitive" modes, but that's a subject for a different topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Wouldn't matter since the net effect is a pure detriment to the overall time spent for players in the game mode. Only if they are there for the LIs, or if they _depend_ on those that are there only for LIs. And if the mode cannot survive without those players that are there only for LIs, then it doesn't deserve dev support at all. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > There is literally almost no benefit to player retention for the game mode besides maybe some initial increase for people completing the precursor achievement. I don't believe anyone said it would benefit player retention. It was suggested in order to offer an additional source of income to veteran raiders. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > I have argued how this change would cause a loss in player base. Feel free to disprove my claim. I do not care how big this loss might be. _Any_ change in this game causes a loss in playerbase. This doesn't mean we should stop making even the slightest adjustments. because, you know, not doing any changes incidentally also leads to people quitting the game. In the end, what matters is how _big_ that group is for each specific change, not whether it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > You can make choice depending on efficiency, but it's only by your personal prerequisit. If what you say was true, there would be people playing efficient, optimised builds only in the game. But we know world doesn't work like that :) > > > > > > That's irrelevant. We both know that playing a meta build, or even playing well, isn't required to play any of the most efficient farms in the game, you don't need an efficient build to play SW RIBA, AB ML or Palawadan. Yet those attract the majority of this playerbase which we both also know. It's all about efficiency nothing else > > > > Raids also do not require efficiency. All those gates are created and enforced by players, not the game. Efficiency is irrelevant to achieve anything, you can play efficient to get things faster, but you won't get better things because you are better player. > > I think you misunderstand the difference between build efficiency and farm efficiency. Build efficiency doesn't really matter in easy, farmable content, it becomes way more important when the content gets harder. But build efficiency is completely beside the point of unique currencies. > > The most efficient farm is the farm that gives the highest amount of rewards, in the lowest amount of time, as examples, SW RIBA, AB ML, Palawadan, CoF P1 (old days), EOTM (when karma trains were there) and so on. The only way for other content to compete, and stay alive, is to have unique/exclusive rewards, this has been the main design choice of this game for a very long time, since the very first living world episode. > > As for the last part, you are absolutely right, you won't get better things because you are better player. This is painfully true in WVW/PVP, the so called "competitive" forms of this game, where the best players of both modes do not get anything better than anyone else. Good play isn't really rewarded in either of the "competitive" modes, but that's a subject for a different topic. Efficiency is irrelevant because in this game you get almost anything eventually, because rewards are finite and are mostly dependand on farming, not skill. PvP titles included which are gained by wintrading. That's why allowing LI to be tradable changes nothing - anyone can get them eventually. And raiders should be happy if LI farmers and chat-code cheaters leave LFG to cleanse the community and leave only "tru hardkurz" playing this magnificent piece of game content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > I wonder which one is more efficient, afk in WVW/PVP or roaming around the episode maps gathering resources on multiple characters. Haven't tried it, so I don't know. Depends on currency. For bloodstones it's reward tracks all the way. Winterberries are an exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 No issue with it. I'd happily sell 1300 LI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > Efficiency is irrelevant because in this game you get almost anything eventually, because rewards are finite and are mostly dependand on farming, not skill. If that was even remotely true then CoF P1 farm, SW RIBA, AB ML, Palawadan farm and any other such MASSIVE farm would've never existed. We both know that they did, and do exist. We both know that the next best farm will appear and players will go there by the thousands. So efficiency is, in fact, above all. Enjoyment/fun, challenge/difficulty are secondary objectives, they do exist of course, but for the majority of the players, it's all about the most efficient path to the same rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > I wonder which one is more efficient, afk in WVW/PVP or roaming around the episode maps gathering resources on multiple characters. Haven't tried it, so I don't know. > Depends on currency. For bloodstones it's reward tracks all the way. Winterberries are an exact opposite. > > Which means if you could get bloodstone rubies by playing in Bitterfrost Frontier, exchanging berries for rubies, then most likely Bloodstone Fen would be a wasteland, hence my initial point, each piece of content having unique rewards in order to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > Efficiency is irrelevant because in this game you get almost anything eventually, because rewards are finite and are mostly dependand on farming, not skill. > > If that was even remotely true then CoF P1 farm, SW RIBA, AB ML, Palawadan farm and any other such MASSIVE farm would've never existed. We both know that they did, and do exist. We both know that the next best farm will appear and players will go there by the thousands. So efficiency is, in fact, above all. Enjoyment/fun, challenge/difficulty are secondary objectives, they do exist of course, but for the majority of the players, it's all about the most efficient path to the same rewards. Are you going to tell me it's impossible to get anything in the game unless you participate in these farms? Because players who chose to farm like these are buying same rewards that players who don't. Their efficiency is irrelevant in terms of reward. They get things faster, but since rewards are finite, anyone get these rewards eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > I wonder which one is more efficient, afk in WVW/PVP or roaming around the episode maps gathering resources on multiple characters. Haven't tried it, so I don't know. > > Depends on currency. For bloodstones it's reward tracks all the way. Winterberries are an exact opposite. > > > > > > Which means if you could get bloodstone rubies by playing in Bitterfrost Frontier, exchanging berries for rubies, then most likely Bloodstone Fen would be a wasteland, hence my initial point, each piece of content having unique rewards in order to survive. oh so we are only choosing alternate reward aquisition selectively to prove the point? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > Are you going to tell me it's impossible to get anything in the game unless you participate in these farms? Of course not I never said that. I'm saying the opposite though, if unique rewards did NOT exist, then players would get every reward from those farms and never go to the rest of the game. To repeat one more time, I hope the last one: > Currencies are map specific and content specific for a reason, to give an incentive for players to run said content, otherwise you run the risk of both making some content useless, since you'd get the same rewards from elsewhere, and at the same time increase the risk of burnout. You can run your farm content only so many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > Are you going to tell me it's impossible to get anything in the game unless you participate in these farms? > > Of course not I never said that. I'm saying the opposite though, if unique rewards did NOT exist, then players would get every reward from those farms and never go to the rest of the game. To repeat one more time, I hope the last one: > > Currencies are map specific and content specific for a reason, to give an incentive for players to run said content, otherwise you run the risk of both making some content useless, since you'd get the same rewards from elsewhere, and at the same time increase the risk of burnout. You can run your farm content only so many times. Your original example of map rewards doesn't work as you can get them with reward tracks. Dungeon rewards - same. You need to decide - you want raids to be a farm or prestige content? I'm all for tradable LIs anyway, that would create new market for raid farmers to get wealth. Raids are already in farm mode, with people carrying useless LI stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The wiki sort of answers the question: Notes The chests from raid bosses can only be looted once a week, therefore an account can currently get at most 17 Legendary Insights per week. ANET obviously wants to time gate the acquisition of LIs, so making them tradeable would circumvent that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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