Joko and the Scarab Plague's Aftermath (Spoilers Ahead)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Do you even see your own image?

> Do YOU?

>

> It's literally just off mark from each other, and nowhere near off scale enough to suggest that the body of water barely visible in the top right hand corner is the lake near Frostgorge. What you suggest would require the map be significantly more compressed then it is, when, in reality, it needs to be stretched out more, placing that remote body of water even further away then it is now, further DISPROVING your hypothesis. Though at that point the Inland Sea would be inside Ascalon, but its still right next to Ascalon either way.

 

I'll admit that there should be more of that inland sea than shown, but it wouldn't be the entirety of the whole damn thing.

 

And I did not say to compress the map, I said to expand it (unless "the map" you're referring to is the in-game one) - That_Shaman's vector map is the one that's on a smaller scale with your latest overlapping. And that would _increase_ the gap between the Far Shiverpeaks sea and that Blood Legion sea. Thus more gap between it and the Blazeridge Mountains. Not decrease it.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> The war will end when Joko is defeated,

 

Pfft, as if that stopped the Awakened forces before. And that was before Joko had so intricately woven living beings into the higher echelons of his government.

 

But even so, you say that as if such a thing will be so damn easy.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> I'm fairly certain the way we replace him is just having Aurene absorb enough of his magic so she can begin absorbing magic, but sharing it freely instead of hording it like the Elder Dragons do. I don't know why people think there is some complex process that needs to be done when none of the Exalted, or Glints memories, or Vlast's memories, or anything, has suggested its anything other then "Have Vlast(dead now so w/e) and Aurene get enough magic power that they reach the critical power state needed to do it". The fact Aurene grew and aged rather significantly simply by absorbing some of Balthazar's magic seems to suggest this.

 

Because if that was all it took, then there would be no need for Aurene, Vlast, or Glint. The Six Gods could have done that with ease. But the Six Gods, like Glint, Vlast, and Aurene, are **NOT EVEN TIED TO THE ALL.**

 

There are two aspects to the problem with Elder Dragons dying:

 

1. Overloading magic. Easily fixed.

2. The All becomes imbalanced. Hard to fix.

 

Glint's Legacy is meant to fix the latter, which requires six beings tied to The All at relatively equal powers. Simply eating a ton of magic doesn't connect one to the All, either, and we know this because neither Tequatl nor Balthazar had become part of the All despite their large amounts of Tyrian magic absorbed.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> North is possible because of Jormag, but its far more likely we would go WEST, into the "wetland" continent, then us going East. Going west would likely lead us into where Utopia was going to be, if Anet wants to try that again instead of just tossing many of its ideas into Tyria like they did with EoTN.

Utopia was to take place in the Mists...

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493960/#Comment_493960

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>but it wouldn't be the entirety of the whole kitten thing.

The sea would expand outward past the maps borers, but it would be right on the other side of the Blazeridge.

 

>And I did not say to compress the map,

No, you didn't, nor did I say you did, please actually READ what I wrote. I said your suggestion that the lake seen next to Frostogrge sound is the body of water in the northeast corner of the datamined map would require the in-game map to be massively compressed compared to what I showed, to show what I mean, here is what you suggested in map form.

 

Since this was getting a bit big I put it on a spoiler

 

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>This is how I would show the comparison:

>

> 

>

> Now there _is_ some inconsistencies. But not one as major as a massive inland sea the size of a nation suddenly disappearing after suddenly being added where, by all little lore we have, it never should have been.

 


 

Now look at how the map compared to what I originally posted in my previous post, where I linked up Frostgorge, and made the eastern lake be "Lake Kralkatorik" in the Charr Homelands, and compare that to your scaling, which is accurate?

 


 

 

 

>But even so, you say that as if such a thing will be so kitten easy.

Na. it wont be easy, which is why we have been making allies in the Order of Shadows, the Sunspears, the Sly Corsairs, the Olmakhan, the "spoiler allies" etc. etc. We have basically united every organized force in Elona against Joko, and it will still be a rough battle at both Gandara and Jahai before he goes down, but we now have a force able to do it. Still doesn't mean we can't do it in the 4-6 months Episodes 3 and 4 cover since in-game time passes in real time.

 

>The Six Gods could have done that with ease

Nope, for the same reason they didn't just take Abbadon's power. There is a maximum amount of power any individual, even a god, can contain. They cannot contains their own power + another power of equal measure, else they would have just taken Abbadon's power into themselves. Since they aren't connected to the All as you pointed out, there would be no reason to keep a 6th god around, and wait for some mortal to take his power into themselves, unless they literally could not just take his power into themselves.

[Fenar.4025]

For everyone who wants to see something completely different, I have just one word: Utopia. Call me crazy.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> >But even so, you say that as if such a thing will be so kitten easy.

> Na. it wont be easy, which is why we have been making allies in the Order of Shadows, the Sunspears, the Sly Corsairs, the Olmakhan, the "spoiler allies" etc. etc. We have basically united every organized force in Elona against Joko, and it will still be a rough battle at both Gandara and Jahai before he goes down, but we now have a force able to do it. Still doesn't mean we can't do it in the 4-6 months Episodes 3 and 4 cover since in-game time passes in real time.

 

In-game no longer passes in real time, not since Season 2 really. They gave up on that a while ago. It's just year linkage.

 

And with little doubt in my mind, it's unlikely that we'll use the army against Joko directly. It'll likely be down to a two or three on one like most big bad battles in GW2. Even then, we're talking about an _immortal lich_ who could not be killed time and time again, and while he was defeated by Turai Ossa, he's only gotten stronger and wiser from his previous defeat(s - if you include Scarred Psyche).

 

So unless this or the fourth episode is secretly dedicated to finding out how we can bind or slay him, ending him and his reign will be unlikely to occur so soon. And if we learn this in the fourth episode and end him in that episode as well, it would run the heavy risk of feeling like a dues ex machina, like when we learned Mordremoth's weakness was his mind.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> >The Six Gods could have done that with ease

> Nope, for the same reason they didn't just take Abbadon's power. There is a maximum amount of power any individual, even a god, can contain.

 

This is total speculation, and you know it. So don't say it like it's undeniable proof.

 

Abaddon's goal was to become the one true god. Hell, so was Balthazar's. Killing a god without containing their power unleashes world-ending catastrophic energies. This would no doubt threaten the livelihood of the killer too, so Abaddon and Balthazar no doubt had a method in mind for containing that power, and something tells they wouldn't just give it to their followers. Abaddon, at the least, would be smarter than that.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Since they aren't connected to the All as you pointed out, there would be no reason to keep a 6th god around, and wait for some mortal to take his power into themselves, unless they literally could not just take his power into themselves.

 

There's quite a few reasons why the five wouldn't have one of their own take the power into themselves. The most likely reasons being:

1. While not tied to Tyria's The All, it's suspected they could be tied to something similar, thus suggesting once more that six is always needed.

2. Power balance. They wouldn't want one god to be as strong as two, in fear of that god becoming mad and too difficult to slay. Abaddon was already able to win a two on one battle as it was, which would effectively make whichever god got Abaddon's power to be as strong as three gods. For all we know, Abaddon's ability to win a two-on-one was because he himself had slain and absorbed not one but two gods' power for when he went from mortal to immortal. Similarly, it's likely impossible to share power (if it is possible, I'd imagine it would result in a state like Lyssa - "two who are one").

3. Hopes for redemption. It's possible that the five gods were just softies at the time and hoped that if Abaddon served his time for his crime, he would redeem himself (we know that Jeff Grubb wanted to give Abaddon a redemption arc rather than a replacement, this would suggest that it is possible that the gods imprisoned for hope of redemption).

4. Then finally, the theory that there is a limit on how much power a god can handle.

 

But the point is, the Elder Dragons' replacement must also be tied to The All, and not just simply gobble up magic. And there's nothing to suggest that simply gobbling up enough magic will tie a dragon like Aurene to The All.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>So unless this or the fourth episode is secretly dedicated to finding out how we can bind or slay him, ending him and his reign will be unlikely to occur so soon. And if we learn this in the fourth episode and end him in that episode as well, it would run the heavy risk of feeling like a dues ex machina, like when we learned Mordremoth's weakness was his mind.

I personally doubt we will actually dethrone Joko, kill him, or even imprison him, but none of those things are really required to beat him. Dictators like Joko maintain power mostly through fear, but if you can crush his image, you can crush people's fear of him. Any defeat we hand Joko at Gandara and Jahai will very likely be the spark of a continent wide rebellion again him. We already have most of the major factions working against him as is, now all we need is the common man to rise up against him. I fully suspect the LW will end with Joko still technically in power, but facing an unstoppable wave of rebellion that will bring him under.

 

>Abaddon's goal was to become the one true god. Hell, so was Balthazar's. Killing a god without containing their power unleashes world-ending catastrophic energies. This would no doubt threaten the livelihood of the killer too, so Abaddon and Balthazar no doubt had a method in mind for containing that power, and something tells they wouldn't just give it to their followers. Abaddon, at the least, would be smarter than that.

This is speculation even more so then what I stated. The power of a god is enough to destroy a planet, but Balthazar didn't care about Tyria, he just wanted the god's dead dead. He could have just gone elsewhere in the infinity that is The Mists, and not be affected by it, same with Abbadon.

 

>But the point is, the Elder Dragons' replacement must also be tied to The All, and not just simply gobble up magic. And there's nothing to suggest that simply gobbling up enough magic will tie a dragon like Aurene to The All.

Conversely, nothing has implied she needs to do anything but that. If Anet had wanted to imply there was some greater ritual needed, then Glint's memories, Vlast's memories, the Forgotten, or the Exalted, would have suggested as such already. What you suggest is that Anet is going to pull out a last minute Deus Ex Machina to make everything more complex then it was previously suggested to be.

 

If there is some connection to the All needed, it would simply stem from Aurene being the child of Glint, who was born of Kralkatorik, and thus shares a link to his power. We know Kralkatorik's weakness is his own power, and Aurene's power was usable as well. If Aurene's power is already close enough to Kralk's to be usable as a weapon against him, them expanding her power to his levels would allow her to use her powers, which are also his, at the same level.

 

This is also why I suspect that, if they ever get a replacement for Mordremoth, it will be the Pale Tree, as its connection to Mordremoth, as well as it being a giant magical tree to begin with, would give it the ability to do so.

[zolcor.2601]

Is there a way for me to terminate my own lore topic here? I'm getting a lot of negativity. I might just quit using the forums. :(

 

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Spoilers: Joko got ate, next chapters/episodes will deal with the power vacuum and Kralkatorric probably.

[yefluke.3168]

> @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > Also why Cantha? The last we heard of Cantha was that it went into a xenophobic isolationistic dictatorship and right now there is nothing to assume that something changed. Going there could start an intercontinental war and another war is the last thing we need with Kralkatorrik being op right now two Elder Dragons who could awaken any time and a war against elona thats coming now.

> >

> > Because people are bent on nostalgia. And other people seem to believe that "if we haven't heard of it yet, there's nothing there".

> >

> > I agree that it would be more interesting (and, to be honest, far more logical) to go explore new lands than return to Cantha ATM.

>

> I don't really understand this obsession with Cantha people seem to have. Back in GW1 I had the impression that Cantha was the least favourite part of the game in the community. Big ugly ghetto, two wastelands, putting in a squishy meele class where enemies explode on death and missions were real slugfests.

>

> And after playing with nostalgia in one expansion and now the Living World ( the Joko plot makes it neccesary ). It would be really nice to go somewhere else to discover new land, new lore etc. Sandswept Isles showed that it can be done and I believe that Anet can deliver new lore rich regions for an expansion.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"Walhalla.5473" said:

> > > Also why Cantha? The last we heard of Cantha was that it went into a xenophobic isolationistic dictatorship and right now there is nothing to assume that something changed. Going there could start an intercontinental war and another war is the last thing we need with Kralkatorrik being op right now two Elder Dragons who could awaken any time and a war against elona thats coming now.

> > The "war" against Elona is going to end before it begins, and Kralkatorik will be dead and replaced before we go to Cantha.

>

> The war could end now, which is unlikely, it could also end at the end of the season and if it ends at the end of the season, its gonna be at least a few months long, long enough for some destruction and diminishing the number of soldiers and warriors at both sides

>

> And for Kralkatorrik dying, we still need to find out how to replace him, just killing him and taking his magic isn't enough. We probably need the "weapon" that was talked about in the story of PoF, which is right now somewhere, for that.

>

> And its way more likely that we go east or north in the next expansion than Cantha.

 

Well

 

Joko is probably really dead now (as i expected), next ep will be the transition to Krallkatorik

 

 

I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"yefluke.3168" said:

> I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

 

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"yefluke.3168" said:

> > I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> > Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

> Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

>

 

His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

 

I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

>

> I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

Again, people taking what was actually said out of context to make things grander. He says Hes been around to see dragons and gods come and go, which he true, he was around to see Abbadon, Balthazar, and Vlast, come and go.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> >

> > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

> Again, people taking what was actually said out of context to make things grander. He says Hes been around to see dragons and gods come and go, which he true, he was around to see Abbadon, Balthazar, and Vlast, come and go.

 

Whilst it clear Joko is no side villain by any means, your point is true, although would say zhaitan and mordremoth were more relevant examples than Vlast, since Joko was active during both their rise and demise.

 

Indeed, does Joko not still ride Zhaitan through the skies of.........I digress..

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Whilst it clear Joko is no side villain by any means, your point is true, although would say zhaitan and mordremoth were more relevant examples than Vlast, since Joko was active during both their rise and demise.

>

> Indeed, does Joko not still ride Zhaitan through the skies of.........I digress..

Except he dies exactly like a side villin in this very release, on par with the other side villains of the series like Scarlet, and Caudicus.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > Whilst it clear Joko is no side villain by any means, your point is true, although would say zhaitan and mordremoth were more relevant examples than Vlast, since Joko was active during both their rise and demise.

> >

> > Indeed, does Joko not still ride Zhaitan through the skies of.........I digress..

> Except he dies exactly like a side villin in this very release, on par with the other side villains of the series like Scarlet, and Caudicus.

 

Precisely the issue

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Precisely the issue

There is no issue becuase he was never anything more them a secondary character in both Gw 1 and 2.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > Precisely the issue

> There is no issue becuase he was never anything more them a secondary character in both Gw 1 and 2.

 

It is a big issue as far as I am concerned and that is my feedback. He is significant enough to warrant more than what was given. Whether he is a greater or lesser threat than the Elder Dragon's is not relevant. He is still a large enough character given his presence across two games and his actions within those games and the lore to warrant more than a quick appearance and a sudden cheap laugh death designed seemingly to entertain the writers, just as the plot was getting interesting and questions/lore remained unanswered. However, I leave that as my final point since I have no wish to be drawn into further argument.

 

We differ on opinion, so we shall leave it at that. If you believe he was well handled, then so be it.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > Precisely the issue

> > There is no issue becuase he was never anything more them a secondary character in both Gw 1 and 2.

>

> It is a big issue as far as I am concerned and that is my feedback. He is significant enough to warrant more than what was given. Whether he is a greater or lesser threat than the Elder Dragon's is not relevant. He is still a large enough character given his presence across two games and his actions within those games and the lore to warrant more than a quick appearance and a sudden cheap laugh death designed seemingly to entertain the writers, just as the plot was getting interesting and questions/lore remained unanswered. However, I leave that as my final point since I have no wish to be drawn into further argument.

>

> We differ on opinion, so we shall leave it at that. If you believe he was well handled, then so be it.

 

Given how much time he was given in both games, I find this an acceptable conclusion to the character. Now onto more branded, which likely what will happen to the rest of Joko’s forces.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> >

> > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

> Again, people taking what was actually said out of context to make things grander. He says Hes been around to see dragons and gods come and go, which he true, he was around to see Abbadon, Balthazar, and Vlast, come and go.

 

Every character that is alive at this point in story has seen dragons and gods come and go by that logic. There is no point in saying it at all the way he did if you go with such a literal interpretation of his words. And there still remains the question of dragons being the life force of the world. If I'm not mistaken that is first time some third party referred to them that way.

 

Also, someone being a secondary hero or villain isn't some sudden excuse for poor treatment by narrative team

[Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> > >

> > > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

> > Again, people taking what was actually said out of context to make things grander. He says Hes been around to see dragons and gods come and go, which he true, he was around to see Abbadon, Balthazar, and Vlast, come and go.

>

> Every character that is alive at this point in story has seen dragons and gods come and go by that logic. There is no point in saying it at all the way he did if you go with such a literal interpretation of his words. **And there still remains the question of dragons being the life force of the world. If I'm not mistaken that is first time some third party referred to them that way.**

>

> Also, someone being a secondary hero or villain isn't some sudden excuse for poor treatment by narrative team

 

At the time he says this, he’s draining the life force out of his guard. It’s just for the pun.

 

We know this since season 2, and many in the world of Tyria acknowledge that.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > Whilst it clear Joko is no side villain by any means, your point is true, although would say zhaitan and mordremoth were more relevant examples than Vlast, since Joko was active during both their rise and demise.

> >

> > Indeed, does Joko not still ride Zhaitan through the skies of.........I digress..

> Except he dies exactly like a side villin in this very release, on par with the other side villains of the series like Scarlet, and Caudicus.

 

Scarlet wasn't really a side villain, though. She got way more attention than Faolain, Caudecus, Lazarus, or Joko. She had an entire LW Season to herself, which would amount for about 7-8 episodes of S3/S4's style of releases depending on how you divide things.

 

As poorly designed as Scarlet was, she got an appropriate amount of screen time before her death. The others did not.

 

You don't have to be an Elder Dragon or a god to be a plot's primary villain. And if a continental terrorist can be a primary villain, then so can an ancient powerful spellcaster capable of manipulating the souls of living beings be one, as can an immortal lich tyrant.

 

> @"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:

> We know this since season 2, and many in the world of Tyria acknowledge that.

 

While it was hinted through [a very obscure lore object](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Map_of_the_All), no one but Dragon's Watch has ever made mention of it. And since the Priory had access to that book before Zhaitan's death, it's obvious they didn't believe it's obscure meaning of The All falling out of balance leading to the world's destruction being the same as killing Elder Dragons means the world's destruction.

 

It wasn't until Season 3 that it got confirmed by Taimi and made a definitive fact. And even then, the Commander had told Taimi: _"Confirm that theory as soon as you can. I'm sure we'll have a lot of convincing to do when word of this gets out."_ She did, but as far as we know, that knowledge has been kept within Dragon's Watch, the Exalted, and Caithe. Same with Aurene's existence - that is, until Daybreak, but even then, given that Joko didn't know of Aurene in the first instance of this episode, it seems knowledge of her is limited and perhaps even mere rumors outside those who see her personally (primarily in Istan and Amnoon, the latter wouldn't even know her for sure her ties to the Commander until now).

 

TL;DR

Known by players since Season 2, but only known by the Commander since Season 3 Episode 5, and even then it's been kept secret within Dragon's Watch because it's such a tense topic.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> > > >

> > > > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

> > > Again, people taking what was actually said out of context to make things grander. He says Hes been around to see dragons and gods come and go, which he true, he was around to see Abbadon, Balthazar, and Vlast, come and go.

> >

> > Every character that is alive at this point in story has seen dragons and gods come and go by that logic. There is no point in saying it at all the way he did if you go with such a literal interpretation of his words. **And there still remains the question of dragons being the life force of the world. If I'm not mistaken that is first time some third party referred to them that way.**

> >

> > Also, someone being a secondary hero or villain isn't some sudden excuse for poor treatment by narrative team

>

> At the time he says this, he’s draining the life force out of his guard. It’s just for the pun.

>

> We know this since season 2, and many in the world of Tyria acknowledge that.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't remember anyone ever calling them "life-force of the world. That implies something completely different than them being a natural force that is in/perpetuates balance. I'm genuinely interested as I'm 90% per cent sure they weren't ever perceived as source of "all" on Tyria but rather its byproduct

[Feanor.2358]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > @"yefluke.3168" said:

> > > I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> > > Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

> > Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

> >

>

> His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

>

> I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

 

Really? We fought against a freaking *god* to stop him from killing dragons. Not one, not two, three of them. Which happen to be the number of alive Elder Dragons he could reach. We returned from the dead to do this. I should think we fully well knew how important they were. I fail to see the bomb-dropping here. Joko merely reiterated on something we knew.

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > > @"yefluke.3168" said:

> > > > I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> > > > Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

> > > Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

> > >

> >

> > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> >

> > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

>

> Really? We fought against a freaking *god* to stop him from killing dragons. Not one, not two, three of them. Which happen to be the number of alive Elder Dragons he could reach. We returned from the dead to do this. I should think we fully well knew how important they were. I fail to see the bomb-dropping here. Joko merely reiterated on something we knew.

 

Again, knowing they are important is different than them being "life force of the world". Words do have a meaning. Your car needs a wheel but the wheel is not the same as engine.

 

Fact that death of a dragon brings destruction to Tyria is not the same as them being the life force of the Tyria even though it might cause us to make same actions

 

Death of X brings destruction

X is the life force of the world

 

These two sentances are not synonimous even though they might ask us to behave in a way as if they were

[Feanor.2358]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > > > @"yefluke.3168" said:

> > > > > I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> > > > > Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

> > > > Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

> > > >

> > >

> > > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> > >

> > > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

> >

> > Really? We fought against a freaking *god* to stop him from killing dragons. Not one, not two, three of them. Which happen to be the number of alive Elder Dragons he could reach. We returned from the dead to do this. I should think we fully well knew how important they were. I fail to see the bomb-dropping here. Joko merely reiterated on something we knew.

>

> Again, knowing they are important is different than them being "life force of the world". Words do have a meaning. Your car needs a wheel but the wheel is not the same as engine.

>

> Fact that death of a dragon brings destruction to Tyria is not the same as them being the life force of the Tyria even though it might cause us to make same actions

>

> Death of X brings destruction

> X is the life force of the world

>

> These two sentances are not synonimous even though they might ask us to behave in a way as if they were

 

They don't have to be synonyms, they're still functionally the same. We knew they're essential for the balance of magic and upsetting that further would cause catastrophic disaster. We knew we must save them at all costs and literally died for that. Whether we call them "life force" or not is irrelevant. There's nothing more we could do for their preservation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't remember anyone ever calling them "life-force of the world. That implies something completely different than them being a natural force that is in/perpetuates balance. I'm genuinely interested as I'm 90% per cent sure they weren't ever perceived as source of "all" on Tyria but rather its byproduct

 

The words "life force of Tyria" is never said explicitly, but the idea is there. It's the entire reason we've turned from dragonslayer to dragon protector and stopped Balthazar from killing Primordus+Jormag and later Kralkatorrik.

 

The whole "forces of nature thing" is _entirely different_ and is just the Tyrian's _incorrect view of the Elder Dragons_ being something incomprehensionable and unthinking waves of destruction like hurricanes. It's not referencing their ties to The All.

 

And yes, "life force of Tyria" and "death of a dragon brings destruction to Tyria" is effectively the same thing. So long as the Elder Dragons remain tied to The All, they effectively function as the organs of the world that regulate the world's blood (magic) through its veins (ley lines).

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > > > @"yefluke.3168" said:

> > > > I don't know why people were so confident in Joko of being main Villain of LW4. He is just another minor villain like Caudacus.... tbh

> > > > Krak is main antagonist... We know we will end him in some way soon and move on to next expac.

> > > Generally speaking, fans have a bad habit of trying to build up their favorite characters as something more then the games ever showed them as because their favorite character just HAS to be super important, and the longer they get to sit around thinking that, the more and more ways, and the more and more deeper, thier internal rambling about just how special they are grow, making them only more and more self-convinced that they are right.

> > >

> >

> > His last monologue disapproves you. He is a **human** lich who survived at least one dragon cycle and calls dragons "life force of the world". These are some of the biggest lore bombs we have had in LW.

> >

> > I never perceived Joko as anything more but another side villain. But his last monologue fundamentally changes things

>

> Really? We fought against a freaking *god* to stop him from killing dragons. Not one, not two, three of them. Which happen to be the number of alive Elder Dragons he could reach. We returned from the dead to do this. I should think we fully well knew how important they were. I fail to see the bomb-dropping here. Joko merely reiterated on something we knew.

 

It's more that Joko knew this fact that, by rights, **only Dragon's Watch and the Exalted should know at the moment**, and more importantly **spoke as if he knew more than this.**