Siege Revisions

[Kitta.3657]

That is my conclusion^

I'm just not gonna bother countering this and understand the clear message being sent here: "I don't want you to counterplay me being on the arrow cart"

My first sentence addressed it already.

[Clownmug.8357]

Go ahead and weaken arrow carts, don't want to make commanders think too hard about siege placement. Just let them hug walls with catapults and a massive blob. They won't even need shield generators anymore because there's no better protection than up against a wall where cannons can't hit and defenders get melted by AoEs. That burning oil mastery would probably be nice though if more commanders wanted to take unnecessary risks and actually attack gates.

[Kovu.7560]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Sure, if you decide to stand right above the zerg.....

> Or you could pre target the shield gen, jump down the wall to the side, off load your damage, run away.

> You have unblockable 1500-1800 range afterall with tools to escape easier than most classes.

 

When you put yourself in combat and there's a group of 20+ likely containing at least some of thieves, mesmers, warriors and other rangers you had better hope there's a gate/portal nearby or a safe ledge to glide off of. Moreover, one burst won't destroy a shield gen and they'll be expecting you the second time.

 

I'll stick with unblockable disablers.

 

~ Kovu

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> I have the feeling that arrow carts will become actually worthless. We'll see how it turns out

 

Hopefully this turns out to be the case.

[somewhatobsessed.6309]

Nice, this will make defending objectives even more difficult and pointless, once again giving attackers the upper hand. It would be far more expedient at this point to simply remove all structures to facilitate the open-field blob fights everyone is so keen on.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"somewhatobsessed.6309" said:

> Nice, this will make defending objectives even more difficult and pointless, once again giving attackers the upper hand. It would be far more expedient at this point to simply remove all structures to facilitate the open-field blob fights everyone is so keen on.

 

Irony being that flat fields only expose, and display the balance issues of combat. I actually like variable terrain...

 

D:

[Knighthonor.4061]

Why no changes to Treb and Golems? I want to see some changes. Need more ways to play and use these

[goldengut.9134]

yeah the arrow cart changes are bad, if anything I felt even the superior arrow carts we too weak as far as damage, and if your gonna nerf them againist siege then increase their effectiveness againist players themselves. or nerf pulls and damage on top of wall because let be honest no player is really tall enough to see up there anyway or better yet might as well remove all structures if your gonna make them that easy to flip

[Kovu.7560]

If people are seriously concerned about karma training, introduce some sort of diminishing returns for capturing the same types of structures in quick succession, reduce the rewards for flipping paper walled objectives, reward more to both attackers **and** defenders for _longer_ sieges/defenses and have objectives that don't take any damage during a skirmish tick for fewer points.

 

As cheesy as shield gens have been for attackers, 15 arrow carts in difficult to reach positions behind a wall is pretty cheesy on the defending side of things, too. I'm glad they both got the nerf hammer.

 

~ Kovu

[Timelord.8190]

> @"Ceistebi.4023" said:

> > @"Timelord.8190" said:

> > Nice. Now ppl can learn how to fight instead of just pressing 1-4 while hiding in towers.

>

> People will learn to fight when hiding behind 40+ person squads is no longer a thing. Defenders hiding behind an AC is a response to the absurd amount of blobs that run around these days. A group of 15ish players who are well versed in their class and a smart commander can take out a t3 objective with some patience. It's pathetic that defenders get blamed for simply trying to do all they can in order to save against blobs of way too many people.

 

Most of the time i see 40+ hiding in towers fully sieged up. The defenders advantage got way to high with the HoT addon. This is why we almost never cap T3 keeps anymore, unless it's like almost no people there to defend. If they could make AC's deal lower dmg based on how full the server is would be a good solution aswell i think.

[XenesisII.1540]

I'm not sure why they felt the need to nerf ac damage, especially to siege since it did so little anyways as I believe it was previously nerfed for that as well. It still needs to do decent damage to have it's area respected, I just don't think it should be covering as large of an area as it does.

 

 

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> When you put yourself in combat and there's a group of 20+ likely containing at least some of thieves, mesmers, warriors and other rangers you had better hope there's a gate/portal nearby or a safe ledge to glide off of. Moreover, one burst won't destroy a shield gen and they'll be expecting you the second time.

>

> I'll stick with unblockable disablers.

>

> ~ Kovu

 

We might as well give up then as soon as the shield gen is built I guess, too many scary people out there.

 

 

 

 

[Ben K.6238]

Most of these changes are good, except this one:

 

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> * Burning Oil Mastery 3 now also reduces condition damage. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%.

 

That's going to double how long people can stay on oil, but when it comes to very short durations, if you multiply 0 by 2, you still end up with 0.

 

The reason why people don't use oil is because the placement does not make sense. If it's to be a useful defensive structure, it needs to be much harder for attackers to hit (atop a tower or recessed into the wall for example), and/or operated by levers further back from the pot.

 

Basically, the implementation of burning oil needs a rethink. It'll take a lot longer but otherwise, the best you can do is a band-aid.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Does this mean superiors are more or less like normals now? And normals are like even worse than toenails?

[Radjan Majere.4208]

I'm not sure whether this is good for the game or not, but it will at least facilitate different tactics and dynamics for awhile, something the WvW game sorely needs. Fewer defenders will not be able to repel as many kinds of attacks as they can now, for sure. Not sure if the cap AND the per-second nerf is going to go too far. There will seem to be less incentive to bother trying to defend, and therefore upgrade. I worry that it might exaggerate the population imbalance problem in that it will be so much harder for defenders that fewer people will try... but maybe that will accelerate some of the other changes for trying to deal with the inherent population balance problems like the elimination of servers... Hell, I dunno.

 

Basically, I guess I come down on the side of - WvW is stale, so why the hell not. Let's roll the dice. Something needs to liven things up before alliances.

[morrolan.9608]

Does this mean gravel shot and ballista bolts will go through shield gen domes?

[Kitanin.8394]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> Are some of you really expecting to be untouchable on walls?

 

I'm fine with being touchable, as long as there is _literally anything_ I can do in response other than "give up and retreat to the inner keep/lord's room/spawn/Obsidian Sanctum/Hoelbrak/liquor cabinet".

 

Right now, while operating an arrow cart:

 

* I can't use stability; (without hopping off the arrow cart which resets my camera, making the AC useless for a couple of seconds)

* I can't use condi clears; (without...)

* I can't heal; (without...)

* I can't _do actual damage to attackers_ thanks to the current zerg meta including "Barrier ALL the things!";

* I can't even interrupt casting by attackers, because they get to use all the stability/healing/condi clear they want, and besides it's taking an arrow to the _knee_ that stops you adventuring not taking one to the _skull;_

* the AC I'm on is melting because Improved Siege doesn't actually improve any siege that anyone uses, just the burning oil build site and cannons that only ever produce 16 evades and a 0 damage (because you missed the Warrior's vulnerable frame).

 

Okay, that last one's not technically true. Noöne ever uses Improved Siege =). My AC is melting because the cannons are also build sites so I'm the only thing the eles, necros, and mesmers _have_ to shoot at to pass the time while the catas/rams are opening the wall/gate.

 

And somehow, looking at the situation the conclusion was "people are still using arrow carts, better nerf them".

[Karnasis.6892]

So after reading most of the posts on this page, I've come to the conclusion that most people in the conversation are in the camp that they just want to fight all the time. So if we're nerfing defensive siege so it's basically useless, lets remove all walls while were at it, and gates, and any hills, and lets throw in any npcs, water, and ruins. Lets just have a flat open field with no obstructions and no where to run to. I feel that's the only way to make the "fighting players" happy.

 

I personally don't like the idea of the changes because the lower tier servers already have a hard enough time. They are in t3/t4 for a reason (except mag, they just want easy bags/wins) after all, and not all of that boils down to just player skill, but also how many guilds left/joined your server. Coverage is a big deal as well, and so when there are less players around but it's another servers prime time I basically should just give them the keys and leave. I don't think so.

 

It's not like you see too many people crying out that Catas are too powerful because they knock down walls (although if this goes live I'd say Catas will be more powerful now with no counter play since AC's were used to deter people from building super close to walls). All siege has it's role to play, AC's did their job pretty well. If you were getting wrecked by AC fire, it might be time to get out of Zerk gear.

[Kovu.7560]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

>

> We might as well give up then as soon as the shield gen is built I guess, too many scary people out there.

>

 

Or you can throw an unblockable disabler and not do dumb stuff like putting yourself in a position to likely be killed.

 

~ Kovu

[Kunzaito.8169]

I think I like a lot of these changes as a start. The one thing I see a huge glaring hole with is the "shield cannot put domes on other shield gens" one.

 

It's well-intentioned and works to solve the "unstoppable assault" zergs can currently manage where their shield provide perfect protection to themselves and siege. But I think this will become a defensive nightmare.

 

Either through deliberate trolling or through ignorant placement, it will be possible to nullify entire areas that need shield protection by building another gen. Trolls could build them on top of a cluster of defensive siege or a treb that's being protected so that it can't be anymore. They could build one on or near a wall or gate that needs to be bubbled and completely stop its ability to be protected. There are already difficulties placing defensive shields with LoS to the areas they need to protect where they can't be instantly destroyed by ele/scourge bombs. This will make it ten times harder.

 

Defensive siege has to be carefully set up in advance, with the expectation that a small number of people with limited or no ability to build additional pieces can use it effectively. An offensive zerg is a walking supply hoard that can instabuild whatever; if someone trolls their placement likely they can just let the defense kill that piece or pivot to a new strategy. Plus the troll has to be present in the moment. To troll a defense they can get there any time, place some bad shields, and rely on well-intentioned tickers to keep it working.

 

I don't know what modification could be made so that the original problem can be solved while protecting defensive interests but I did want to bring awareness to the big potential for abuse.

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

awesome changes.

keep it up gang!

[HazyDaisy.4107]

> @"Kitanin.8394" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > Are some of you really expecting to be untouchable on walls?

>

> I'm fine with being touchable, as long as there is _literally anything_ I can do in response other than "give up and retreat to the inner keep/lord's room/spawn/Obsidian Sanctum/Hoelbrak/liquor cabinet".

>

> Right now, while operating an arrow cart:

>

> * I can't use stability; (without hopping off the arrow cart which resets my camera, making the AC useless for a couple of seconds)

> * I can't use condi clears; (without...)

> * I can't heal; (without...)

> * I can't _do actual damage to attackers_ thanks to the current zerg meta including "Barrier ALL the things!";

> * I can't even interrupt casting by attackers, because they get to use all the stability/healing/condi clear they want, and besides it's taking an arrow to the _knee_ that stops you adventuring not taking one to the _skull;_

> * the AC I'm on is melting because Improved Siege doesn't actually improve any siege that anyone uses, just the burning oil build site and cannons that only ever produce 16 evades and a 0 damage (because you missed the Warrior's vulnerable frame).

>

> Okay, that last one's not technically true. Noöne ever uses Improved Siege =). My AC is melting because the cannons are also build sites so I'm the only thing the eles, necros, and mesmers _have_ to shoot at to pass the time while the catas/rams are opening the wall/gate.

>

> And somehow, looking at the situation the conclusion was "people are still using arrow carts, better nerf them".

 

You forgot getting off the AC to throw a disabler thats not going to connect anyway and probably dying in the process because you've been pulled off the wall into a pool of death. The sad part is even when these changes go into effect, people will still say defenders have all the advantages as they quietly laugh at the fact that all the keeps are constantly paper and only being "defended" by newbies because all the vets realized defending isn't what wvw is really about.

[metalTiffy.7106]

I really like the AC change.

Last week we had a match up against both french servers which are both master of getting acs until siege cap and hidding inside with a full zerg and having an ac for every single person :p

 

Maybe you would use superior shield gens more and putting them much more behind and use their higher Range since they cant bubble themself anymore.

 

With this nerf a good firebrand should be able to keep the people in shield gens alive or maybe you dont even need them anymore if you are quick enough with 5 rams

 

Hope it would bring more fights since I'm often too unpatient for all this treb on range stuff ^^

 

Con of this change is, that really outnumbered deff people like in Night Shift can do much against the 50 people outside. Maybe outnumbered buff should be added Inside keeps so if less people are inside a specific range of the keeps they do more damage on sieges or so..

[Shadowzerk.4715]

a group of zerg has 30~50 ppl @ a T3 tower

with 10 cata 4 shield gen.

 

question: anet, how could u def a T3 tower with 10~20 men?

u could do it in Dark Age of Camelot and Warhammer Online (RvR)

but not in Guild Wars 2, no way. waste all supply and port asap is the best option.

 

siege weapons on def are almost useless against shield gen.

[Shadowzerk.4715]

> @"Ceistebi.4023" said:

> Interesting changes, although the problem with AC's was never to siege weps, it was the damage it tended to do to players. Also, for those complaining that 15 defenders shouldn't be able to hold of 2,3, or 4x the number, you just honestly need to get better.

 

thats stupid imo

a group of zerg with voice co vs 15 def as a pug?

one is organised, and others are not. and u r asking a pug to learn how to play together????

[Silver.2076]

Maybe you'll learn to organize instead of hiding alone in fortresses. Yes, WvW has something to do with player mass and it is always hair-raising when the opponent is constantly hiding behind siege. Yes yes, some still swear on their solo roaming and PPT after 5 years of playing, but it's never too late for you to understand that this doesn't enhance interaction with players, but prevents it. Because interaction keeps the game alive, not the care of your lonely island.

 

But admittedly, ANET must now work even harder on the player ballance. The alliance system must now slowly come around just to create the balance.