Dont touch anything before mirage is solved

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

>

> Other than that mirage is fine.

 

Actually, Mirage damage isn't even that over the top. The problem with the class is it has absurdly high invuln uptime, which allows mesmers to play multiple roles without any downside or counter to them. For instance, I was recently playing this build on my mesmer to try and find a counter to it: ( https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condition_Damage_Duelist )

 

And the more I played it, the more I realized that there is no viable counter strat whatsoever. What is so busted about it really comes down to how you can do everything while being untouchable. For instance:

 

Evade ( 1s ) -> evade ( 1s ) -> -> sword 2 ( 2.5s ) -> Distortion ( 3s ) -> Heal ( Gain evade 1s from Adventurer ) -> swap Axe 3 ( 3/4s ) -> Mirror from heal ( 1s ) -> evade (1s )

 

That's over 10 seconds of being able to dumpsterfire on someone with them having absolutely no way to fight back. And then you can torch 4 to stealth, jaunt, portal away, and other things to stall out being able to do it all again fairly soon. Avoiding mesmer damage isn't too hard, knowing when they are going to shatter isn't hard, you just can't kill the mesmer if they are being played by any semi-competent player. The godmode uptime is way too high.

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > > @"maxwelgm.4315" said:

> > > > Distortion is absolutely NOTHING like a dodge, neither is mirage cloak. During distorting you're invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction, you **can stomp and heal while you do it**, among any other actions you might think of, such as dropping portals and what not. This is one of the **most** relevant things, but if that cannot be seen, this discussion is not going anywhere (it doesn't go anywhere among the balance team I guess, so...).

> > >

> > > During mirage cloak, your invulnerable but allowed to act, you're not forced to move into any particular direction ... I hope you see where this is going.

> >

> > No you are invulnerable just like you are with a normal dodge, conditions still will do the dmg during dodges and you can get interrupted by skills like line of warding. Mirage cloak is just a dodge and title it like a distortion is just trying to create even more drama and give very not so good player some more false arguments at hand. Just stay with your brainless core guard spec and close your mouth. Not even enough braincells for a condimirage but talking...

>

> First of, I'm sorry if I hurt you in the past.

> Secondly, mirage cloak has a 33% duration increase from what a normal dodge has. This means it lands at one second.

> It does not force a movement nor does it cancel any actions.

> It does not negate condition damage, no invulnerability does. Distortion included.

> The only difference between the two, outside of the icon and animation is that it doesn't benefit from shatter traits, and you can't walk over ward effects. Other than that, it has the same function.

>

> Also, I don't know if you want to say "not enough braincells for a Condi mirage" considering the meta we are currently in.

 

Retal, pulm impact, and shocking aura still do their effects through mirage cloak but I agree that it is almost exactly the same as distortion aside from these niche cases.

[otto.5684]

While mirage is over performing, this thread is more: “I do not like mirage. it is too annoying for me to play against. Anet please nerf.” ?

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> While mirage is over performing, this thread is more: “I do not like mirage. it is too annoying for me to play against. Anet please nerf.” ?

 

I would love to hear your logic that got you to this overblown statement. Literally nothing in my op could be remotely taken as this.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Condi mirage needs it’s application looked at, same as condi thief.

> >

> > Other than that mirage is fine.

>

> Actually, Mirage damage isn't even that over the top. The problem with the class is it has absurdly high invuln uptime, which allows mesmers to play multiple roles without any downside or counter to them. For instance, I was recently playing this build on my mesmer to try and find a counter to it: ( https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Condition_Damage_Duelist )

>

> And the more I played it, the more I realized that there is no viable counter strat whatsoever. What is so busted about it really comes down to how you can do everything while being untouchable. For instance:

>

> Evade ( 1s ) -> evade ( 1s ) -> -> sword 2 ( 2.5s ) -> Distortion ( 3s ) -> Heal ( Gain evade 1s from Adventurer ) -> swap Axe 3 ( 3/4s ) -> Mirror from heal ( 1s ) -> evade (1s )

>

> That's over 10 seconds of being able to dumpsterfire on someone with them having absolutely no way to fight back. And then you can torch 4 to stealth, jaunt, portal away, and other things to stall out being able to do it all again fairly soon. **Avoiding mesmer damage isn't too hard, knowing when they are going to shatter isn't hard, you just can't kill the mesmer if they are being played by any semi-competent player. The godmode uptime is way too high.** *

 

 

Anyone can slot energy runes and adventure.

 

Everyone has 2 active evades, 1 short somewhat reliable cooldown or weapon set, and one long cooldown be it utility or mechanic.

 

Thief and Ranger can evade/block more times by hard numbers alone, shaving a second or two off of entire up-time for more on demand access.

 

The problem being form the model you put you get a ton of ambushes which will apply even more condi pressure depending on the weapon. This is avoidable damage but the output is high enough to apply more pressure than it should, for to long a time.

 

You may dislike fighting it, but you do not have this problem with power mirage as it's much easier to evade their damage, push off point, and does not have that constant stream of pressure like condi does.

 

Take any class that has a decent vigor up time or weapon skill evade access with adventure, and energy, and you'll net about the same result, and on some builds you'll get even better sustain. * On the grounds of it's evade time being to powerful DD is just as OP and in many ways safer, or easier to land damage with depending what you are fighting. Both are not OP based on how you can deal with them on point.

 

And before it comes back to "you can attack while doing it!" Still only really covering phants and heal.

 

Also if you are looking for counters, there are a few in combat anyone can use. However a major one you should test to shut them down is strong condi bombs. Most mirages lack decent cleanse other than jaunt.

 

Btw if someone is dumping every cooldown on you they are going to run out of cooldowns quick and be open, this isn't like scrapper or ele where you can cycle cooldowns and live forever, Mirage runs out and can be easily baited or forced to waste.

[pah.4931]

We just need better checks and balances. If you gonna have all that utility you better hit like a wet noodle. This logic is used on other profs, just not mesmer (and somewhat thief and warrior) for some reason.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

 

> Everyone has 2 active evades, 1 short somewhat reliable cooldown or weapon set, and one long cooldown be it utility or mechanic.

>

> Thief and Ranger can evade/block more times by hard numbers alone, shaving a second or two off of entire up-time for more on demand access.

>

> The problem being form the model you put you get a ton of ambushes which will apply even more condi pressure depending on the weapon. This is avoidable damage but the output is high enough to apply more pressure than it should, for to long a time.

>

> You may dislike fighting it, but you do not have this problem with power mirage as it's much easier to evade their damage, push off point, and does not have that constant stream of pressure like condi does.

>

 

Are you unironically comparing block/evade to invuln?

 

 

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > While mirage is over performing, this thread is more: “I do not like mirage. it is too annoying for me to play against. Anet please nerf.” ?

>

> I would love to hear your logic that got you to this overblown statement. Literally nothing in my op could be remotely taken as this.

 

Not from you. Your op did not say anything beside that mirage is over performing, which is largely agreed upon. However, if you read the remainder of the thread: “OMG it gets distortion when it dodges.” Really.. anyway my suggestions:

 

Elusive mine instead of the exhaustion it has a 10 secs ICD.

You cannot dodge while CCed.

Lower axe 2 and axe 3 condi application by one stack. PvP only.

 

I think these changes are fair enough. It keeps mirage meta but reduce its overreach in evading damage and lowers damage a bit.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> We just need better checks and balances. If you gonna have all that utility you better hit like a wet noodle. This logic is used on other profs, just not mesmer (and somewhat thief and warrior) for some reason.

 

True that e.g. guardians are slow therefore no 25% ms passive etc. Reaper? Hits hard but requires setup and positioning to do so. Alot of the overtuned pof specs take one end of the balance and throw it out.

 

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > While mirage is over performing, this thread is more: “I do not like mirage. it is too annoying for me to play against. Anet please nerf.” ?

> >

> > I would love to hear your logic that got you to this overblown statement. Literally nothing in my op could be remotely taken as this.

>

> Not from you. Your op did not say anything beside that mirage is over performing, which is largely agreed upon. However, if you read the remainder of the thread: “OMG it gets distortion when it dodges.” Really.. anyway my suggestions:

>

> Elusive mine instead of the exhaustion it has a 10 secs ICD.

> You cannot dodge while CCed.

> Lower axe 2 and axe 3 condi application by one stack. PvP only.

>

> I think these changes are fair enough. It keeps mirage meta but reduce its overreach in evading damage and lowers damage a bit.

 

Fair enough. I think its more of a semantics battle at this point someone compared it to a dodge and yes the comparison is there and then someone over reacted and said its no such thing whatsoever. When really it both is and isn't.

 

From dueling experience with a friend who plays a plat 2 condi mirage the duels I could win weren't won by cc, so at least from my pov the dodge is fine. If I needed a cc check something like ring of warding lets me burst him in stealth since properly timed he cannot leave. The main overblown aspects were on the axe and the easy enter stealth. Which needs tuning but isn't necessarily op since he lost the cap point every time. But a large part of top tier mirage is forcing over rotation so that the enemy gets into a situation where they can't leave until you're dead.

 

The axe 3 has a 'This attack breaks enemy targeting,' on it. Which exists on no other skill in the game and is complete bullshit with how well it counters high level play. Got a burst coming up? Np just break it. Haven't testing fully but it will break lock even with stab. And in low level play it's just a pain in the ass for people to play mindgames with.

 

As for people arguing about 'balance around high level' or 'balance around the crowd low level' neither is a good option alone. You balance for high level only your game dissapears. You balance for low level only you have no competitive scene and your competitive players go bandwagon the latest release. Things that overperform at a high level will be brought down as will things that overperform too easily at a low level. Yeah, you're going to get balance at both ends, welcome to the mmo genre enjoy your stay.

[bravan.3876]

You cannot dodge during cc will never happen because it is one of the mirage main features and as explained several times it is not op and counterable. When mesmer needs his dodges to secure well telegraphed and long cast skills then he has less dodges to avoid your dmg after.

 

The only mirages are op are hybrid and condi and both are not op due to mirage cloak. Nerfs needed are longer axe cds in particular for axe 3, icd on ineptitude to avoid condi shatterspam, change to the last bonus of adventure rune, torch firestacks nerf. Only one phantasm spawn from staff 3. Then just check if more nerfs are needed or not but i think than the broken builds are balanced.

[Bigbosos.2063]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > While mirage is over performing, this thread is more: “I do not like mirage. it is too annoying for me to play against. Anet please nerf.” ?

> >

> > I would love to hear your logic that got you to this overblown statement. Literally nothing in my op could be remotely taken as this.

>

 

> Lower axe 2 and axe 3 condi application by one stack. PvP only.

 

And/or increase the CD to ~12 seconds when traited.

[Jannie.2975]

Mirage really needs a massive tune down.

[Hot Boy.7138]

so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

 

Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

[Math.5123]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

 

Difference being no one used DH in actual tournament games, while mirage is so strong it gets banned from community ran tournaments.

 

[phokus.8934]

DH was massively nerfed while Mirage has been left mainly untouched.

 

So your analogy is not remotely accurate.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

>

> Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

 

Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

> >

> > Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

>

> Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

 

Hi,

 

Please read what I stated as i said "anymore" as in going forward. Thanks.

 

 

[Hot Boy.7138]

I don't want to derail the conversation, but the biggest issue with dragonhunter was the fact that traps begin recharging right away when casted, and not when the trap has been activated. That has never been addressed by anet, but isn't really a big deal because of the power creep. Getting hit with a double set of traps while trying to contest a point just seems within reason with the current state of everything being too much.

[Arlette.9684]

Mirage will never be solved, regardless of nerfs. It’s OP on a fundamental level. So balance as you see fit. I kinda like that ANet has taken the “don’t listen to the community” approach. We’ve had some horrible meta shifts everytime they caved to the public opinion.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> I don't want to derail the conversation, but the biggest issue with dragonhunter was the fact that traps begin recharging right away when casted, and not when the trap has been activated. That has never been addressed by anet, but isn't really a big deal because of the power creep. Getting hit with a double set of traps while trying to contest a point just seems within reason with the current state of everything being too much.

 

Requires your target to walk into the first trap, this requires patience and setup. Seems fine to me.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

> > >

> > > Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

> >

> > Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

>

> Hi,

>

> Please read what I stated as i said "anymore" as in going forward. Thanks.

>

>

 

No one complains 'anymore' because of those nerfs...... check your context.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

> > >

> > > Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Please read what I stated as i said "anymore" as in going forward. Thanks.

> >

> >

>

> No one complains 'anymore' because of those nerfs...... check your context.

 

You seem to be missing the context friend, however ill be the bigger person and avoid further argument by stopping here.

 

Have a great day bud.

[Solidaris.5423]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

> > > >

> > > > Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > Please read what I stated as i said "anymore" as in going forward. Thanks.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No one complains 'anymore' because of those nerfs...... check your context.

>

> You seem to be missing the context friend, however ill be the bigger person and avoid further argument by stopping here.

>

> Have a great day bud.

 

Apologies but your sentence "Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes." does sound like the Dragonhunter is still OP but ppl got used to it and ignore it which is kind of not true seeing the e-spec was weakened over time pretty aggressively and compared to Mirage it was a faster approach.

 

I think the devs are looking into this but trying to not listen to the community because the previous times they listened they only created a different type of meta.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > > > so many balance patches have come and gone of people complaining about mirage. Mirage in PoF is the equivalent of dragonhunter in HoT. I don't expect any significant balance changes to create more fair gameplay. Next xpac will produce more power creep that will make mirage class seem balanced, the same way no one complains about dragonhunter anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Are we playing the same game? DH had 4 balance patches with major targeted nerfs in addition to numerous smaller tweaks. Please go read the notes following hot.

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > Please read what I stated as i said "anymore" as in going forward. Thanks.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No one complains 'anymore' because of those nerfs...... check your context.

> >

> > You seem to be missing the context friend, however ill be the bigger person and avoid further argument by stopping here.

> >

> > Have a great day bud.

>

> Apologies but your sentence "Thats due to over time people have just accepted that the trapper or medi trapper DH wont get balanced anymore. Cant wait for ppl to get that mindset with some PoF classes." does sound like the Dragonhunter is still OP but ppl got used to it and ignore it which is kind of not true seeing the e-spec was weakened over time pretty aggressively and compared to Mirage it was a faster approach.

>

> I think the devs are looking into this but trying to not listen to the community because the previous times they listened they only created a different type of meta.

 

It was meant to be interpreted that DH is no longer a problem and accepted that no further balances will occur, hence why I used "Balance" instead of "Nerf". While it could be positioned clearer, I still stand by it as its theoretically still correct :p

 

In regards to your other statement, community changes does shift the meta hard, and iirc rarely in a good direction. Maybe thats why anet doesnt do many polls?