Remove Mirage Cloak on dodge

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > Never gonna happen. Mirage cloak is a core mechanic for the e-spec and changing it now, after the rework is about as unlikely as seeing pigs fly. Focus your anger elsewhere.

>

> Which is a bit of a shame in a way, because any work spent on fixing up the *current* Mirage mechanics is ultimately wasted. The spec needs scrappign and re-doing, starting with an **actual** theme.

 

Delight us with an 'actual' theme then.

[Abelisk.4527]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> > > > Let's all calm down and think about Mirage. Dodges have become invulnerabilities.

> > >

> > > No they haven't. What are you even talking about?

> > >

> >

> > What's the difference between Endure Pain and Mirage Cloak?

>

> Neither are invulnerability, what's your point?

 

My bad. I have a tendency to call skills invulnerabilities if they are able to mitigate damage.

 

Nevertheless, Mirage Cloak is like a shorter Endure Pain on a significantly lower cooldown.

 

On-Topic: This idea also appears to be polarizing, so I won't contribute to it anymore.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The only change that really needs to happen is that MC should not allow them to dodge while CC'ed. That was the point of EM which is already insanely strong. Mirage is impossible to punish because even when caught they can still avoid punishment.

 

Dodge food is overpowered and should be removed. It breaks virtually everything in the game, but especially mirage. That's easily half the problem alone.

 

The other half is the asinine mobility sword has. It's literally most shadowstep/blink skills with 66% or more cooldown reduction to comparable utility skills which makes trying to bait cooldowns and disengaging impossible for everything except two builds specialized in running away.

 

Condi mirage is an issue, but that's just tweaking numbers to make it not deal stupid amounts of damage. It's busted because of the aforementioned.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The only change that really needs to happen is that MC should not allow them to dodge while CC'ed. That was the point of EM which is already insanely strong. Mirage is impossible to punish because even when caught they can still avoid punishment.

>

> Dodge food is overpowered and should be removed. It breaks virtually everything in the game, but especially mirage. That's easily half the problem alone.

>

> The other half is the asinine mobility sword has. It's literally most shadowstep/blink skills with 66% or more cooldown reduction to comparable utility skills which makes trying to bait cooldowns and disengaging impossible for everything except two builds specialized in running away.

>

> Condi mirage is an issue, but that's just tweaking numbers to make it not deal stupid amounts of damage. It's busted because of the aforementioned.

 

Dodging while stunned is part of the mechanic, people can learn to delay their burst for the reflex dodge. The point of EM was to make an already hard to pin down spec even harder to pin down and was pointed out as needing a rework by a large amount of people even on the preview weekend. The huge synergy between energy sigils and adventurer runes doesn't help a lot either since Mirage directly benefits from both far more than any other spec.

 

You want to remove dodge food because of one overperforming spec that is unable to contribute in the large scale fights WvW is 'balanced' around?

 

I'll agree with that one, Sword Ambush needs to be toned down a bit.

 

There are a couple problem traits that make Condi Mirage particularly annoying because they shut down counterpressure and apply pressure at the same time, slap some split changes on those and it'd be a lot less oppressive. While I like Cry of Pain because it makes a shatter actually rewarding for illusion downtime, it loads a lot of confusion on Cry of Frustration, tripling the effect and needs to be tuned down a little for PvP.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Delight us with an 'actual' theme then.

 

I would maybe even work from the name, "Mirage". A mirage is a false image, something giving you hope when it doesn't exit.

 

I'd translate this into a Mirage being adept at providing powerful positive effects which may not be quite as helpful as you had hoped. The new set of abilities would be "mirages", fittingly, which create strong buffs but only briefly, resulting in an unmitigatable debuff afterwards. Their main class mechanic would be "shifting sands", which constantly displaces the Mirage by small amounts **from the enemies' perspectives**. Not only does this mess massively with hitting in PvP, it also helps to avoid AEs in PvE.

The mirage can see where they "really" are, both distance and direction change slowly as time passes.

 

However, one downside with such a setup, even though it could bring the theme of "mirage" into gameplay terms (unlike the current implementation which doesn't even try to go **anywhere** beyond the raw name), is that it'd again not be a pure damage spec. Though frankly, I don't see the Mesmer of all classes as a class befitting that, it's a trickster. It should all be about misdirection, control and illusions.

 

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Why? I think it's really great. Fun to play and there's no reason they can't balance it for PvP. It isn't THAT OP. It's just OP in 1v1 and has high mobility, essentially a juiced up thief. They're increasingly irrelevant the more players you add to the fight (see WvW zerg for the opposite end of that spectrum!). But of course since PvP players can't stand to lose, 1v1 somehow seems more important than actually winning games.

>

> They don't have to rework mirage cloak to bring mirage in line. It just needs toning down in that dueling scenario and a look into certain over-performing traits and skills such as mirage thrust, Elusive Mind, and probably some of the synergy between shatter and ambush for condi builds. People are just losing their minds over this.

 

I specifically didn't mean implementation/mechanics, but *theme*. Mirage is a nice name, but beyond the name itself having something to do with the desert and the graphics of FAlse Oasis, nothing about the spec has anything to do with the desert or the name. There's no theme built, and hence nothing translated into gameplay, either.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

>While I like Cry of Pain because it makes a shatter actually rewarding for illusion downtime, it loads a lot of confusion on Cry of Frustration, tripling the effect and needs to be tuned down a little for PvP.

 

This is an interesting one when considering that for a long time of condi shatter it was a suggestion that to reduce spam it would be a good idea to load condi burst onto one shatter (ie F2, making it relevant), ideally aiming to provide more skill for condi shatter such that they had timed burst application in exchange for reduced spam.

 

One issue is that Maim the Disillusioned still applies to all shatters. Add that to Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude, together with things like Mirage ambushes (and Riddle of Sand), now we have burst condi application of F2 (sure the burst is confusion which is intended to be a burst condi now, but unlike old condi chrono that could only spam through shatters, mirage has alternative application through weapons and ambushes) while maintaining a similar amount of condi spam, just in a different form. -> power creep.

 

Just an observation, I'm not sure which side I'd prefer to be shaved, whether Ineptitude, Riddle of Sand, ambushes, Cry of Pain or moving/redesigning MtD. Either way we're currently at a point of partial implementation of these ideas.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > Delight us with an 'actual' theme then.

>

> I would maybe even work from the name, "Mirage". A mirage is a false image, something giving you hope when it doesn't exit.

>

> I'd translate this into a Mirage being adept at providing powerful positive effects which may not be quite as helpful as you had hoped. The new set of abilities would be "mirages", fittingly, which create strong buffs but only briefly, resulting in an unmitigatable debuff afterwards. Their main class mechanic would be "shifting sands", which constantly displaces the Mirage by small amounts **from the enemies' perspectives**. Not only does this mess massively with hitting in PvP, it also helps to avoid AEs in PvE.

> The mirage can see where they "really" are, both distance and direction change slowly as time passes.

>

> However, one downside with such a setup, even though it could bring the theme of "mirage" into gameplay terms (unlike the current implementation which doesn't even try to go **anywhere** beyond the raw name), is that it'd again not be a pure damage spec. Though frankly, I don't see the Mesmer of all classes as a class befitting that, it's a trickster. It should all be about misdirection, control and illusions.

>

 

First off, they wouldn't give us two support specs back to back. Frankly not a single group in the game would want an unremovable debuff regardless of what comes before unless it's so staggeringly powerful the debuff essentially was pointless. I'm not really getting what you're trying to say with the 'shifting sands' mechanic. Like are you saying the enemy would constantly see the Mirage in a different place? And if it's from the enemies perspective how would it help with avoiding AoE's in PvE? Is the 'shifting sands' part a separate hitbox that the enemy locks on to?

 

That setup lends only to your personal interpretation of what a Mirage should be. A Mirage is dangerous from the get go, seeing one means you're already in trouble because you're hallucinating. There is literally nothing beneficial about it that would lend itself to interpretation as a get a lot give a little support spec. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think Mesmer should not have a pure damage spec because of your own interpretation of a theme?

 

We could debate thematics all day, but misdirection and illusion can be just as dangerous as a pyromaniac with a stick.

 

Edit: If it revolved more around boonplay it'd probably be something along the lines of giving your opponent boons for a very short time that turn into conditions when they expire.

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > Delight us with an 'actual' theme then.

> >

> > I would maybe even work from the name, "Mirage". A mirage is a false image, something giving you hope when it doesn't exit.

> >

> > I'd translate this into a Mirage being adept at providing powerful positive effects which may not be quite as helpful as you had hoped. The new set of abilities would be "mirages", fittingly, which create strong buffs but only briefly, resulting in an unmitigatable debuff afterwards. Their main class mechanic would be "shifting sands", which constantly displaces the Mirage by small amounts **from the enemies' perspectives**. Not only does this mess massively with hitting in PvP, it also helps to avoid AEs in PvE.

> > The mirage can see where they "really" are, both distance and direction change slowly as time passes.

> >

> > However, one downside with such a setup, even though it could bring the theme of "mirage" into gameplay terms (unlike the current implementation which doesn't even try to go **anywhere** beyond the raw name), is that it'd again not be a pure damage spec. Though frankly, I don't see the Mesmer of all classes as a class befitting that, it's a trickster. It should all be about misdirection, control and illusions.

> >

>

> First off, they wouldn't give us two support specs back to back. Frankly not a single group in the game would want an unremovable debuff regardless of what comes before unless it's so staggeringly powerful the debuff essentially was pointless. I'm not really getting what you're trying to say with the 'shifting sands' mechanic. Like are you saying the enemy would constantly see the Mirage in a different place? And if it's from the enemies perspective how would it help with avoiding AoE's in PvE? Is the 'shifting sands' part a separate hitbox that the enemy locks on to?

>

> That setup lends only to your personal interpretation of what a Mirage should be. A Mirage is dangerous from the get go, seeing one means you're already in trouble because you're hallucinating. There is literally nothing beneficial about it that would lend itself to interpretation as a get a lot give a little support spec. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think Mesmer should not have a pure damage spec because of your own interpretation of a theme?

>

> We could debate thematics all day, but misdirection and illusion can be just as dangerous as a pyromaniac with a stick.

>

> Edit: If it revolved more around boonplay it'd probably be something along the lines of giving your opponent boons for a very short time that turn into conditions when they expire.

>

>

 

Pretty sure PoF sets the limitations, Chrono = support, Mirage = condi, X= next escpec being power damage.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > Delight us with an 'actual' theme then.

>

> I would maybe even work from the name, "Mirage". A mirage is a false image, something giving you hope when it doesn't exit.

>

> I'd translate this into a Mirage being adept at providing powerful positive effects which may not be quite as helpful as you had hoped. The new set of abilities would be "mirages", fittingly, which create strong buffs but only briefly, resulting in an unmitigatable debuff afterwards. Their main class mechanic would be "shifting sands", which constantly displaces the Mirage by small amounts **from the enemies' perspectives**. Not only does this mess massively with hitting in PvP, it also helps to avoid AEs in PvE.

> The mirage can see where they "really" are, both distance and direction change slowly as time passes.

>

> However, one downside with such a setup, even though it could bring the theme of "mirage" into gameplay terms (unlike the current implementation which doesn't even try to go **anywhere** beyond the raw name), is that it'd again not be a pure damage spec. Though frankly, I don't see the Mesmer of all classes as a class befitting that, it's a trickster. It should all be about misdirection, control and illusions.

>

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > Why? I think it's really great. Fun to play and there's no reason they can't balance it for PvP. It isn't THAT OP. It's just OP in 1v1 and has high mobility, essentially a juiced up thief. They're increasingly irrelevant the more players you add to the fight (see WvW zerg for the opposite end of that spectrum!). But of course since PvP players can't stand to lose, 1v1 somehow seems more important than actually winning games.

> >

> > They don't have to rework mirage cloak to bring mirage in line. It just needs toning down in that dueling scenario and a look into certain over-performing traits and skills such as mirage thrust, Elusive Mind, and probably some of the synergy between shatter and ambush for condi builds. People are just losing their minds over this.

>

> I specifically didn't mean implementation/mechanics, but *theme*. Mirage is a nice name, but beyond the name itself having something to do with the desert and the graphics of FAlse Oasis, nothing about the spec has anything to do with the desert or the name. There's no theme built, and hence nothing translated into gameplay, either.

 

How exactly is it buffing itself if this shifting sands mechanic is effective at avoiding damage (Questionable, given that targeting doesn't really work in such a way that the concept could work, as far as I can tell?)? Not defensively, right? But wait...not offensively either? And we already have a support spec that buffs everyone else in addition to itself while dealing low damage, right? It sure sounds like you'd ruin a perfectly good class because you don't think it fits thematically. Thanks, but no, thanks.

[Carighan.6758]

@"AliamRationem.5172" :

Honestly, another key flaw - IMO - of GW2 is that its classes don't have designed niches, as such Mesmer always being a supportive enhancing character - no matter which elite, which just changes what *specifically* you do would be a key benefit IMO.

 

Because if anything, GW2's flexibility is also why the classes feel so underdeveloped and bland.

 

That's one thing I hope they revert in GW3, I'd prefer a setup more like in GW1 where there is lots of flexibility, but in a more narrow cone of design.

[EUmad.7645]

remove mirage core mechanic....

[phokus.8934]

I have this 88mph feeling that this balance patch is going to decimate condi Mirage.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> I have this 88mph feeling that this balance patch is going to decimate condi Mirage.

 

Nope!

 

/15chars

[Jannie.2975]

> @"Sodeni.6041" said:

> No. Mirage would be useless.

 

That would be great!

[Salt Mode.3780]

> @"Jannie.2975" said:

> > @"Sodeni.6041" said:

> > No. Mirage would be useless.

>

> That would be great!

 

looks like someone got salty getting killed by mirages

[Daishi.6027]

Okay, sure.

But only if we also remove DD's 3rd dodge, and weapons that allow for dodge on both thief and ranger.

[OlsenSan.2987]

I think I will quit playing mirage.

 

Before playing mirage, I was a thief daredevil and used to have a hard time soloing open world. I've found mirage and I feel like a God now, but seems like being a God in a game of normal beings is too bad.

Everytime I come to this forum to read anything about mesmers I see people complaining about mirage skills, they say it is too good. Funny is, I play other classes and I find many things that are good on them as well.

People want mesmers to be their pocket portal and boons sharing toy, they can't stand us as a DPS Class. They are always looking for chronos everywhere, because they need us to stay alive and feel a bit a more powerful, but can't accept us being good on our own. They dont even want us to move anymore. They want us standing still while the world of gw2 spreads dmg on the whole floor and if you dont move you just die.

I think the devs should get into their programming softwares, select mirage spec and click delete, so everyone would be happy with us being their puppets again.

Every pvper usually do not respect people who only likes to pve, because they think they are better than us, but if any class give them a hard time in their pvp world, they cry like babes, so their crying can be heard all over the world.

I am sure anyone can kill a mirage if they know their skills. I dont usually do pvp, but few times I did, I may have had a hard time with some mesmers, but they were killed at the end with me playing a thief daredevil.

 

Lets all quit playing mirage mesmers for a week to make everyone else happy =)

[Hot Boy.7138]

Mirage cloak is mirage lol. Delete the cloak, and you just have base mes with an axe lol.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Others did their part to dismiss OP's primary suggestion already, but I want to say, I really like the idea of a trait that spawns a mirror when a phantasm expires. It ties perfectly to the rework.

 

How about having it as a replacement for the problematic Elusive Mind? Something like: "If a phantasm would become a clone, it becomes a Mirage Mirror instead. Mirage Mirrors spawn a clone and remove 1 condition from yourself when shattered.".

[phokus.8934]

We already have Desert Distortion that turns illusions into Mirage Mirrors when shattered by Distortion.

 

Mirage Cloak is fine as it is the identity for Mirage so we can perform actions while dodging.

[Turk.5460]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> Others did their part to dismiss OP's primary suggestion already, but I want to say, I really like the idea of a trait that spawns a mirror when a phantasm expires. It ties perfectly to the rework.

>

> How about having it as a replacement for the problematic Elusive Mind? Something like: "If a phantasm would become a clone, it becomes a Mirage Mirror instead. Mirage Mirrors spawn a clone and remove 1 condition from yourself when shattered.".

 

Elusive mind isn't problematic. Frequency of condi application is.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > Others did their part to dismiss OP's primary suggestion already, but I want to say, I really like the idea of a trait that spawns a mirror when a phantasm expires. It ties perfectly to the rework.

> >

> > How about having it as a replacement for the problematic Elusive Mind? Something like: "If a phantasm would become a clone, it becomes a Mirage Mirror instead. Mirage Mirrors spawn a clone and remove 1 condition from yourself when shattered.".

>

> Elusive mind isn't problematic. Frequency of condi application is.

 

That's not a problem exclusive to Mirage, though. Sure, Mirage only made it worse, but the theme of the spec was supposed to be an elusive mobile fighter that finds opportunities to apply condis, but in practice, it's extremely hard to punish a Mirage when it has very high protection and weakness uptime, strong cc counters with or without Elusive Mind, tons of dodges along with other forms of damage mitigation, mobility and stealth to engage and disengage at will. Mesmers are supposed to lack sustain unless built specifically for it and limited condi removal. But without even touching the issue of the stun break on Elusive Mind, the condi removal on every dodge is quite a lot for a spec that is supposed to dodge the opponent's condis, instead of cleansing them over and over.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

As a mirage player myself (non meta DPS, no EM, no sword, no stun mantra) who started with condi mirage and I WvW's on said class, The condi sustain they have is the main issue. Luckily I am set up to give condi mirages a run for their money (I win more often than not), however 1 semi decent condi burst and im toast so as a tip, aside from EM, mirages have little condi cleanses. If you can put a few stacks and bury them, a mirage can kill themselves trying to cleanse it. AoE the clones and you negate a big portion of condi application.

 

As for removing mirage cloak...from all the "Mirage OP" or "Remove x from Mirage" threads, Mirage cloak isnt the issue people have for the most part...its EM, followed by the sword. Mirage cloak itself is fine as is. Even if there was no Mirage Cloak, EM will still break that stun and clear that condi. Only difference is it doesnt look as pretty.