Why min-maxing DPS is wasting time!

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> > > > >

> > > > > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

> > > >

> > > > so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

> > >

> > > My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

> >

> > I see, but is this really a DPS issue and not a bad player issue? I mean, we all know and love the break bar illiterate and things like that... and I highly doubt they are even traited or play for highest DPS either.

>

> How can you distinguish bad player from good player if both of them follow the Numbers. Even if you explain what the issue is they will not listen because the facts show that they ranked higher and thus they will continue to do the same thing. That is why proposed that the value for success must be Overall time spend so you can take all other variables in consideration.

 

Ok you have a problem with people greeding dps and not doing boss mechanics. Thats fair, but the DPS meter isnt the problem. Its just a tool that sometimes excurbates the situation. Its the individuals fault for ignoring mechanics and therefore playing poorely. This also has nthing to do with durability and swapping utility, thats a totally different issue relating to meta builds.

 

You can easily spot a bad player if you are experienced. A bad player with either have waay below benchmark dps, or have good dps but die constantly, while the rest of the team survives fine. Neither of them can play either class well.

[Vino.7923]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > Yea the op isn't to clear and comes of as the ramblings of someone who got kicked from a pug group.

> > > What class are you using? What pve content are you referring to? Fractals? Raids?

> > > You running condi? Power?

> > >

> >

> > Actually it is the opposite. After 5 tries of bunker over heal with focus on dps and sticking together i changed the strategy so we can do it as intended. Dodging and not staying like sitting duck. So after 2 tries we did it with the new strategy. But people still wanted to bunker with the optimal dps even after 5 times it failed the same way.

>

> .........

> What?...

> Wh...

> OK....lets start over...

>

> I'll restate the important parts so maybe it's clearer for you.

> What. Class. Are. You. Using?

> What. PVE. Content.Are.You.Referring.To?

>

 

Mainly Mesmer, Necro and Engi. And i am referring to end game group content T4 Fractals ( Baffled how people never bothered to learn the mechanics of some fractals)

and Raids( Wasting time on the perfect DPS Bunker scenario rather than focusing on the specific boss mechanics)

[Vino.7923]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

> > > > >

> > > > > so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

> > > >

> > > > My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

> > >

> > > I see, but is this really a DPS issue and not a bad player issue? I mean, we all know and love the break bar illiterate and things like that... and I highly doubt they are even traited or play for highest DPS either.

> >

> > How can you distinguish bad player from good player if both of them follow the Numbers. Even if you explain what the issue is they will not listen because the facts show that they ranked higher and thus they will continue to do the same thing. That is why proposed that the value for success must be Overall time spend so you can take all other variables in consideration.

>

> Ok you have a problem with people greeding dps and not doing boss mechanics. Thats fair, but the DPS meter isnt the problem. Its just a tool that sometimes excurbates the situation. Its the individuals fault for ignoring mechanics and therefore playing poorely. This also has nthing to do with durability and swapping utility, thats a totally different issue relating to meta builds.

>

> You can easily spot a bad player if you are experienced. A bad player with either have waay below benchmark dps, or have good dps but die constantly, while the rest of the team survives fine. Neither of them can play either class well.

 

I agree that DPS meter is not the issue that is why i said following not using. I refer to people who look at the statistic without questioning how they works 90% of the time, thus using the term sheep.

[Algreg.3629]

okay, things are clearer now. In that case, I´d have to say I agree with your observation, just not with the wording and relation to dps meter - mainly because they´d act just the same without it.

[Vino.7923]

The whole root of the problem is the Oldest question of every MMO. Which class has the biggest DPS. Unfortunately GW2 doesn’t focus on the holy trinity of support, tank, and dps. So every new player will check charts or in this case follow the DPS meter to see the top 3 classes. Then he will search for the best build and thus he will be doing the DPS meta to learn the rotation. Neglecting any mechanics of raids or fractal because the meta is focusing on bunker over heal. Leading to people searching for hours for the best support for maximizing the DPS potential rather than just adapting to the mechanics. And this will continue leading to more people in fractals and Raids where they don’t know the mechanics or just wasting time for everyone when the obstacle can be done without the meta.

[infrequentia.3465]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> The whole root of the problem is the Oldest question of every MMO. Which class has the biggest DPS. Unfortunately GW2 doesn’t focus on the holy trinity of support, tank, and dps. So every new player will check charts or in this case follow the DPS meter to see the top 3 classes. Then he will search for the best build and thus he will be doing the DPS meta to learn the rotation. Neglecting any mechanics of raids or fractal because the meta is focusing on bunker over heal. Leading to people searching for hours for the best support for maximizing the DPS potential rather than just adapting to the mechanics. And this will continue leading to more people in fractals and Raids where they don’t know the mechanics or just wasting time for everyone when the obstacle can be done without the meta.

 

that has absolutely nothing to do with meters.

 

and everything with just the meta alone wich will always shift and people just playing the flavour of the months.

 

[DJRiful.3749]

If Anet can change it to, how many actions and buttons mash counts per fight. That will be much better, my elementalist can easily top chart on this!

[blambidy.3216]

Arcdps is used to make you better. And to (try) to get as close as possible as the meta builds are. I agree that situations make the damage not realistic. However it is possible to understand what you are aiming for.

 

Snowcrows does give benchmarks however, clicking on the raid bosses show the meta teams and the numbers you should try to get to. Looking at benchmarks vs the numbers you should pull in raid bosses is completely different. Testing a golem is to understand the rotation with nothing messing you up. Which is a good thing to do. Then later on, you can put into fractals and raids. And then that’s when you perfect it. I do agree that in situations you should accommodate. However I don’t believe a dramatic dropping of damage should happen.

 

Without boons a player can hit (depending on class). 10k. So in situations 7-8k is doing fine because of situation in fractals. However when on final boss is happening and your only hitting 4K because of you need to switch 1 skill is not acceptable. Switching 1 skill should barely drop the damage.

 

But saying dps meter is useless? No. It is not. It helps progress, give you goals. Make the person better so we can pull our own weight.

 

As for accuracy. Arcdps does average and not spikes in damage. So in snowcrows showing weaver 40k is actually impossible in actual raid boss. And depending on which boss damage will vary. People spike 30k+ In actual raids but will only end up in 25k within the end. Depending on mesmers and rotation.

 

The numbers you should actually look forward to are the snowcrows raid bosses and reflect on their damage. That is what I believe where people don’t think about.

 

The difference is in golem, you have the boons that are applied for 2 hours Vs actual boons that are applied for 30 secs. Banners being couple of minutes and depending on the person who does the off chrono right, slapping the banners down.

 

So if this would be all applied, damage in difference by far compared to those. If people had realistic knowledge then everything would be fine. But when people think you should be having the most dps could vary by many things which not many thing about.

 

So as far as useless? Naw. It’s the people who don’t know how to read the meter and situations and builds.

 

[PaxTheGreatOne.9472]

While I basically agree with the poster with regards to the "When you wipe a little more defensive options could have saved you time" part I also know people with 1200 LI now probably can stay alive fairly easily on their full glass builds with max DPS options. If you look at this problem a few things should be noted:

 

1. Max DPS makes for faster kills, faster kills means a shorter time of enemy pressure. (faster? )

2. Max DPS is squishier then more defensive options and in a case of a succesful hit, consequences will be more dire. (bit more challenge)

3. Defensive options traitwise can cost a lot of DPS (but keep you and your group alive way more easy)

4. Defense through stats can cause havoc with kiting and/or tanking, this is a problem in 1005 toughness tanks

5. Mitigation through boons (protection, regeneration, etc.) by use of own or allied skills or combo's will lower the need for defensive options.

6. Mitigation through conditions (weakness, blindness, stunbreaks) by use of own or allied skills or combo's will lower the need for defensive options.

7. Healers are very important to keep peoples scholar or writ buff up...

8. The DPS done in raids is significantly more effective due to stacking, buff- and boonsharing

9. distort raids can effectively make defensive options useless

10. dodging and vigor will go a long way. failing a dodge can be fatal and this is needed (bit more challenge)

 

But after having said this people should remember a lot of training guilds use somewhat more defensive options or an added healer to make sure the raid has a bigger chance of succes. Thinking and modding builds to counter weakspots in your team and subgroup comp can also make a lot of difference.

 

Having a non ideal comp and finishing content tends to be more challenging and more interesting then using your premade with all people having 500+ kills. In the last scenario you are no longer striving to accomplish anything other then mindlessly repeating preprogrammed responses to the same content, you are just extruding more rewards out of your beat content, you have become a production worker, not a gamer…. I'm left with the only goals left: lowmanning and speedruns with the 1st being cool and the other one pointless as finishing content is the goal, faster is often only used to break content having a record run but never having to deal with the mechanics is as fun as mandatory watching a person killing the golem in a dps test.

 

The point of max dps to reduce pressure has been a thing since dungeons however and has been a core part of this games appeal to some people with speedrun tactics emerging for fractals soon after their release, often skipping smaller and larger parts of the content. Build comps, META builds, speedrun guides, DPS meters, benchmarks and such seem to appeal to a selfproclaimed hardcore group. I am a bit more casual. I'm happy with my leggy armor. I left the raiding scene and am very happy CM modes were introduced to fractals so I can do my t4s relatively friendly again. My biggest problem stays finding relaxed and open t4 groups and having fun

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty's been going on about it for a good while but guess she needs to re-iterate: if your squad is struggling with staying alive, get a dedicated extra healer (+35-60% survivability depending on stuff). Or replace current supports with better supports (easiest to see from arc's boon table with <80% uptimes, also from boons dropping or seeing lower numbers than usually). Or the squad needs to stop failing mechanics (CC faster or evade/avoid lethal stuffs or going to greens etc. People dying to mechs is rather easy to see).

 

Sadly, Kitty's had to use option 2 a lot lately due to perceived influx of staff 1 druids. Many druids Kitty's seen lately don't use wh5 even once and some don't even enter CA during the whole raid encounter...so Kitty's become quite pessimistic about them.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > @"Algreg.3629" said:

> > > > > @"Vino.7923" said:

> > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > > You have an issue with meta builds , not dps meters. DPS meters have nothing to do with people taking defensive utilities. Anyone who uses a meta build and is half decent at the game will know which encounters they need to add 1 defensive trait or utility for. I often take arcane shield or final shielding on my ele in 99cm as its much safer. If someone doesnt know how to adapt the meta build to a situation then they need to learn their class. Its not a problem with the build but the people themselves.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bear in mind in most raid setups adapting a build should never be necessary, only if other people in the team are failing to pull their own weight.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also calling people sheep just makes your argument look childish and un-though out. Base it on facts, not insults.

> > > > >

> > > > > Quite the opposite. I like that the support builds, they enable for different variation rather than just purely dps. And i call sheep only the one's who follow it blindly, so if anyone is offended they did't understand what i spoke or are just blindly defending their dps meter, without any consideration for anything else.

> > > >

> > > > so your issue is with dps or dps meters or people who don´t combine dps with other elements? You are still great at obfuscating what your intention really is. Is this perhaps just about some PUG fight after people accused you of low dps or something and now you are on an insulting spree to vent off? Can you perhaps give a specific example how you sacrifice dps for what you call durability?

> > >

> > > My problem is that people focus too much on the dps aspect and forget that this is time consuming and with less dps it can be done even faster in some cases. Like for example you prefer to do your rotation when cd are up but ignore the boss mechanics so it becomes more risky. You focus only on traits and utility skill that will improve your damage rather than choosing what is best for the current fight or for the group synergy. All your hopes are that you will do your rotation perfectly and the boss will be down before you. Except the boss can do the same to you and this may continue for several tries before you get the hang of it, which in the end will consume you more time than just doing it the safer way. You can look at it like a gamble . Risking more will get you more but most of the time it wont happen. So it is up to you which will save you more.

> >

> > I see, but is this really a DPS issue and not a bad player issue? I mean, we all know and love the break bar illiterate and things like that... and I highly doubt they are even traited or play for highest DPS either.

>

> How can you distinguish bad player from good player if both of them follow the Numbers. Even if you explain what the issue is they will not listen because the facts show that they ranked higher and thus they will continue to do the same thing. That is why proposed that the value for success must be Overall time spend so you can take all other variables in consideration.

 

Boss has 100k hp. Group A does 5k dps. Boss dies in 20s. Group B does 2k dps. Boss dies in 50s.

Now, boss in group B has 30s to spam its own attacks, 1hko, you name it. Making a potential wipe more likely. That is what most people try to explain, and theyre right.

 

If we were to talk about players who only think about "proper rotatiuuun full 30k dps meta gogo" and keep standing in that big bad AoE (meaning, they disregard mechanics), thus getting downed, thus slowing the overall kill, that is a player problem, and that is what i think youre trying to say here (please correct me if i am wrong). And i agree with you. It takes a good player to know a rotation properly, it takes a great player to know when to use it fully, where to pick up after that lifesaving dodge or when to take a big hit in order to maximize the damage, while knowing his support will outheal/out boon the damage.

Alas, I cant blame the dps meter for this. A dps meter is neutral. Bad players will be bad players, period. Dps meter or not. Players who dont take advice kindly will be always like this.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Vino.7923" said:

> The whole root of the problem is the Oldest question of every MMO. Which class has the biggest DPS. Unfortunately GW2 doesn’t focus on the holy trinity of support, tank, and dps. So every new player will check charts or in this case follow the DPS meter to see the top 3 classes. Then he will search for the best build and thus he will be doing the DPS meta to learn the rotation. Neglecting any mechanics of raids or fractal because the meta is focusing on bunker over heal. Leading to people searching for hours for the best support for maximizing the DPS potential rather than just adapting to the mechanics. And this will continue leading to more people in fractals and Raids where they don’t know the mechanics or just wasting time for everyone when the obstacle can be done without the meta.

 

What does a meter have to do with knowing the mechanics? Players don't know the mechanics, wasting everyone's time, but if they didn't use the meta, they'd know the mechanics? You can know the mechanics and follow the meta builds, there is no reason to use one and neglect the other, they are not mutually exclusive.