3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

[Obtena.7952]

I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

[Conqueror.3682]

This game is a mix of social and unsocial game, it is true that the major part of my time i spend doing map metas, wvw maps and etc, it is really easy to join a squad and do group stuff, but also you dont need to say a single word or chat to play your game. Sometimes i forgot im in a guild and i just use it to go into the guild hall and take the tavern buff. GW 2 is by far the most casual friendly game i have played.

 

And many of my instanced content is made by pugs, but it is discouraging to bring my necro only to be stoped and kicked because im using a certain class. Fuck, i just come tired from my work and want to do some fractals, PERIOD, i dont want to crack my head the whole night trying to make a group.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

 

Let's look at this from a more buisness like point of view.

 

Roughly 10% of your customers have been unhappy about a 1/3rd of your product. These customers gave pointers about what they find is lacking and expect you to improve your product so that they are no longer unhappy.

 

A game compagny sell fun/happyness, if for 10% of your customers what they sell is lacking then there is a need for the game compagny to make a move in the right direction.

 

Anet definitely made some shy move in the right direction these last 6 years, but, even after all this time passed the gap between the necromancer and other professions is still there and the 10% customers are still unhappy.

 

At some point, the game compagny need to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happyness to these 10% customers and act accordingly without killing the happiness of the other 90% of their customers.

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

>

> Let's look at this from a more buisness like point of view.

>

> Roughly 10% of your customers have been unhappy about a 1/3rd of your product. These customers gave pointers about what they find is lacking and expect you to improve your product so that they are no longer unhappy.

>

> A game company sell fun/happiness, if for 10% of your customers what they sell is lacking then there is a need for the game company to make a move in the right direction.

>

> Anet definitely made some shy move in the right direction these last 6 years, but, even after all this time passed the gap between the necromancer and other professions is still there and the 10% customers are still unhappy.

>

> At some point, the game compagy need to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happiness to these 10% customers and act accordingly without killing the happiness of the other 90% of their customers.

>

 

Dadnir Sorry for doing this but i needed to correct your english writing.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

> >

> > Let's look at this from a more buisness like point of view.

> >

> > Roughly 10% of your customers have been unhappy about a 1/3rd of your product. These customers gave pointers about what they find is lacking and expect you to improve your product so that they are no longer unhappy.

> >

> > A game company sell fun/happiness, if for 10% of your customers what they sell is lacking then there is a need for the game company to make a move in the right direction.

> >

> > Anet definitely made some shy move in the right direction these last 6 years, but, even after all this time passed the gap between the necromancer and other professions is still there and the 10% customers are still unhappy.

> >

> > At some point, the game compagy need to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happiness to these 10% customers and act accordingly without killing the happiness of the other 90% of their customers.

> >

>

> Dadnir Sorry for doing this but i needed to correct your english writing.

>

>

 

No problem that's not my mother langage so it might be confusing some time when I write something.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

>

>

>

 

10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

@"Obtena.7952"

I've got a feeling you have a personal vendetta against Necromancers (or maybe anything that's not mesmer) ... Your agenda seems to be a bit biased really, because I've never saw you defending the balance that much when Necro's were hitting 40K+ numbers in raids with Epi-bounce ... there was an abundance of topics back then though, but never saw you posting anything like you do now, how balance is supposed to be like that. No, ... only see you posting that stuff when the Necro is there where he "belongs" (according to you), right? Never saw you defending ANets balance right after release of PoF either ... when Scourge was right on top of all the DPS benchmark charts ... only for a few weeks though, when it was nerfed back into ground again, ... and right after that we saw an active Obtena again on the forums!!!

I'm doubting your (not so) hidden agenda more and more!

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> >

> >

> >

>

> 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

 

That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

>

> That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

 

Well, they obviously did with the Epi nerf! Or was it a bug ... I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a bug ... Necro on top of any benchmark chart... must be a bug!

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> People tend to ignore it but no one Rezzs like a Necro ... and that might not impress people, but it IS what Necro does better than anyone else. Is that not useful? It really depends on who you play with.

 

Firebrand is a better rezzer in competitive modes as it can can protect the rez and can rez under pressure which necro can't do.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

> >

> > That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

>

> Well, they obviously did with the Epi nerf! Or was it a bug ... I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a bug ... Necro on top of any benchmark chart... must be a bug!

 

Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

[SidewayS.3789]

@"Obtena.7952" : Dude please leave this thread pls :anguished: .

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

> > >

> > > That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

> >

> > Well, they obviously did with the Epi nerf! Or was it a bug ... I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a bug ... Necro on top of any benchmark chart... must be a bug!

>

> Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

 

Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

>

> Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

 

I think the real issue is that anet never imagined that groups would fill with necromancer and basing their whole strategy on an epidemic snowball effect. They intended epidemic to be used as a way to spread conditions not to concentrate them. So it was all good as long as it was used to kill trashs but the moment players stacked necromancers to use epidemic with the purpose of concentrating conditions onto a single foe, it became an exploit of an unintended effect.

 

It is a matter of "purity of purpose", from the moment you go against the purpose of the skill and it's successfull, anet need to say whether it's a feature or an unintended exploit.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

> > > >

> > > > That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

> > >

> > > Well, they obviously did with the Epi nerf! Or was it a bug ... I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a bug ... Necro on top of any benchmark chart... must be a bug!

> >

> > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

>

> Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

 

Because of scourge. Scourge can provide all 4 of the dps condis, and provide barrier and condi cleansing and might. The short answer is that scourge provides too much to have those dps number. A team of 6 reapers in the past doing more individual dps would not work because burning, torment and poison were too scarce and short duration to get high numbers using the bounce. Vul would also be low because alittle time would in shroud auto attacking to give vul stacks.

More and more necro current situation is because of scourge. It give to much support to have decent dps, but not enough support to over take druid and chrono.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Conqueror.3682" said:

> This game is a mix of social and unsocial game, it is true that the major part of my time i spend doing map metas, wvw maps and etc, it is really easy to join a squad and do group stuff, but also you dont need to say a single word or chat to play your game. Sometimes i forgot im in a guild and i just use it to go into the guild hall and take the tavern buff. GW 2 is by far the most casual friendly game i have played.

>

> And many of my instanced content is made by pugs, but it is discouraging to bring my necro only to be stoped and kicked because im using a certain class. kitten, i just come tired from my work and want to do some fractals, PERIOD, i dont want to crack my head the whole night trying to make a group.

 

Why not create a guild of like-minded people though? It's clear that the PUG community wants to play strictly by the META even though we know that off META builds can accomplish the goal too. Maybe not as fast and efficiently as META does but it can be done. Why depend on a community of people whom you know discriminate against non META builds? The solution here seems to be to gather all like-minded people who want to do end game content. Not just Necromancers but anyone who likes playing builds that can get the job done but because they aren't META they get booted. Why not form a community that will do what the PUG community refuses to? I don't get why people are trying to muscle their way into a group of people whose attitude isn't about what's fun for everyone.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

>

> Let's look at this from a more buisness like point of view.

>

> Roughly 10% of your customers have been unhappy about a 1/3rd of your product. These customers gave pointers about what they find is lacking and expect you to improve your product so that they are no longer unhappy.

>

> A game compagny sell fun/happyness, if for 10% of your customers what they sell is lacking then there is a need for the game compagny to make a move in the right direction.

>

> Anet definitely made some shy move in the right direction these last 6 years, but, even after all this time passed the gap between the necromancer and other professions is still there and the 10% customers are still unhappy.

>

> At some point, the game compagny need to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happyness to these 10% customers and act accordingly without killing the happiness of the other 90% of their customers.

>

 

I think the number is smaller than 10% but that's really not important. How do you know ANet isn't trying? Your position forgets that ANet is likely doing their best to get Necromancer to where it needs to be. The problem is that being on the outside you can't see all the things on the inside that go on that are considered to address the issue. You can give pointers but your pointers don't always have the benefit of having the complete picture, such as not knowing anything about future updates to the game that might have a negative impact on the pointers you give. They can try for 8 or 10 years and never get the problem fix. Sometimes the problem isn't fixable with the current set of mechanics. Being as how this problem has been with us since the game launched I think Necromancers core problem is an inherent flaw to the entire game mechanics and not just the profession. After six years I think the only real solution is a complete reworking of the games core mechanics. Something that likely won't happen until we get to Guild Wars 3.

 

I think part of the problem is the flawed assumption that what's wrong with Necromancer can be fixed given the current mechanics. I no longer think that it can be fixed given the core mechanics. I think that professions like Mesmer and Elementalist also need to be redone so that Necromancer can get a boost up. Other professions need to be rebalanced downward so that Necromancer can be rebalanced upward. I don't think these kinds of fixes can be done under Guild Wars 2.

 

Given ANets mostly positive relationship and interaction with its customers I think they are doing their best to try to make the 10% happy but ..... sometimes it simply can't be done. Which is not something ANet will ever say to its customers because they don't want to hear that. Understandably so.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> @"Obtena.7952"

> I've got a feeling you have a personal vendetta against Necromancers (or maybe anything that's not mesmer) ... Your agenda seems to be a bit biased really, because I've never saw you defending the balance that much when Necro's were hitting 40K+ numbers in raids with Epi-bounce ... there was an abundance of topics back then though, but never saw you posting anything like you do now, how balance is supposed to be like that. No, ... only see you posting that stuff when the Necro is there where he "belongs" (according to you), right? Never saw you defending ANets balance right after release of PoF either ... when Scourge was right on top of all the DPS benchmark charts ... only for a few weeks though, when it was nerfed back into ground again, ... and right after that we saw an active Obtena again on the forums!!!

> I'm doubting your (not so) hidden agenda more and more!

 

No, I'm just realistic and making observations about how the game works. I mean, yes, I am biased .... biased to what Anet does and how they do it. seems to me that if you are going to be biased, it makes the most sense to be biased towards the way things are done and why Anet does them that way.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I guess some people think the negative actions against them is really good press to influence Anet with another "I got kicked" statistic. It's the only reason I can imagine anyone would blindly take a low performance class and join a Meta PUG team.

>

> Let's look at this from a more buisness like point of view.

>

> Roughly 10% of your customers have been unhappy about a 1/3rd of your product. These customers gave pointers about what they find is lacking and expect you to improve your product so that they are no longer unhappy.

>

> A game compagny sell fun/happyness, if for 10% of your customers what they sell is lacking then there is a need for the game compagny to make a move in the right direction.

>

> Anet definitely made some shy move in the right direction these last 6 years, but, even after all this time passed the gap between the necromancer and other professions is still there and the 10% customers are still unhappy.

>

> At some point, the game compagny need to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happyness to these 10% customers and act accordingly without killing the happiness of the other 90% of their customers.

>

 

I don't know what the numbers are ... Anet has them, but I'm going to bet that they do pay attention to the numbers of people that play various game modes and how much effort those game modes deserve to get based on the percentage of customers that play those game mode. If they are, then you already know how important meta-pushing mentality and T4/raids are to the general population (hint ... it's not high)

 

So Yes, Anet needs to seriously reflect on what prevent this part of their product from giving happyness ... and I see no indication they aren't. But make no mistake that Anet isn't going to throw out the core concepts that the game is based on to do that to placate what seems to be a rather small fraction of the total number of people that play this game; the subset of people that do T4/raids AND push meta mentality just isn't that large.

 

[Ceit.7619]

It's amazing to me the level of hoop jumping some of you guys do to justify your mentality, with the sum of your arguments to the issue basically being: Meh, Anet doesn't care because you aren't important enough, so don't complain.

 

Why are you all up on the thread pushing an assumption that the balance developers don't care, exactly? Trying to demotivate the playerbase for seeking positive change? What exactly is the issue with a subset of players wanting to be relevant in a PUG environment? What exactly is the problem with people wanting their favorite class to do more DPS than a different classes version of a SUPPORT build? People are pointing out logical fallacies to the balance design, and you just have to be all up in the thread to throw in there that anet don't care, you should really just be quiet and deal with it.

 

I also tend to think that everyone who is talking about forming their own guild/group for raiding in off-meta setups has never really tried it themselves. First off, setting up a static of normal people can be a challenging endeavor. Getting 10 people to consistently show up to the same designated time on a particular day is often a difficult task for normal raiders, let alone throwing in the caveat that they have to be okay with non-meta builds and a greater chance of not clearing the content. You aren't dropping wisdom by saying all these people should band together and do necro-only clears, we all have different work schedules, life schedules, timezones. It's hard getting normal statics going with these factors at play, let alone throwing in this extra crap. Not to mention the raid system as it is now, doesn't really help the concept all that much because of the way raid rewards work. Shard capping, reward caps, all make it so people want to get their boss clears in as effectively as possible. Doing it past that point is just cost-prohibitive due to food/utilities/time invested not being worth it.

 

In short, necromancer's current design is severely flawed, and it doesn't mesh with the endgame content. Complaints about this are valid. If anet doesn't care and won't change it, then that is how it is going to be, and nobody really needs you bringing that assumption in here as it in no way debates the point of the topic.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

> >

> > Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

>

> I think the real issue is that anet never imagined that groups would fill with necromancer and basing their whole strategy on an epidemic snowball effect. They intended epidemic to be used as a way to spread conditions not to concentrate them. So it was all good as long as it was used to kill trashs but the moment players stacked necromancers to use epidemic with the purpose of concentrating conditions onto a single foe, it became an exploit of an unintended effect.

>

> It is a matter of "purity of purpose", from the moment you go against the purpose of the skill and it's successfull, anet need to say whether it's a feature or an unintended exploit.

 

Necros have been doing that since wing 2 though, I still remember epi bouncing during the mirror comp days. Given that, it would mean that anet has taken this long to "fix" that "problem", which given their track record, is unfortunately believable -_-

 

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > Honestly, how much DPS do you think you need before you can get META PUGs as a necro? I'm guessing LOTS, because getting in META PUGS isn't just about how much DPS you do as a class ... but of course your going to tell me you have this all 'predicted', so I'm not really revealing anything to you.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 10% to 15%, to get the benchmarks to the 31K-33K lvl that all other class have. Condi reaper was a viable raid build a year ago., just high skill cap with using frost fields.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's not the argument of obtena. It's argument is that the necromancer already have more than enough dps to complete the content, which isn't wrong. And that based on history it seem that anet rarely use benchmark as a way to balance professions.

> > > >

> > > > Well, they obviously did with the Epi nerf! Or was it a bug ... I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was a bug ... Necro on top of any benchmark chart... must be a bug!

> > >

> > > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

> >

> > Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

>

> Because of scourge. Scourge can provide all 4 of the dps condis, and provide barrier and condi cleansing and might. The short answer is that scourge provides too much to have those dps number. A team of 6 reapers in the past doing more individual dps would not work because burning, torment and poison were too scarce and short duration to get high numbers using the bounce. Vul would also be low because alittle time would in shroud auto attacking to give vul stacks.

> More and more necro current situation is because of scourge. It give to much support to have decent dps, but not enough support to over take druid and chrono.

 

The only time scourges has ever out dpsed condi reaper by any noticable amount was when triple shade stacking was a thing. Given that, I highly doubt that scourge is the reason. I also recall that thorns runes was a meta pick for condi reapers along with cpc at a time before dps meters became a thing, and also soul spiral always had poison built in to it, so poison was not a rare a condition on reaper as you claim. Additionally, all the utilities you mentioned scourge to have is rendered moot by a single druid

[Shadowmoon.7986]

And you ignore burning, which is short and only occured on shroud auto, and torment which was on 1 skill. Also even if all skills were equal, scourge has more expertise with a trait, so duration of all conditions that arent bleeding are longer.

Scourge epi will out dps reaper epi, again, because of a trait that increases torment by 33% damage.

Also when did druid start bringing barrier? Barrier allowed epi groups to be more tanky.

This is why epi groups showed up for scourges and not reapers.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> It's amazing to me the level of hoop jumping some of you guys do to justify your mentality, with the sum of your arguments to the issue basically being: Meh, Anet doesn't care because you aren't important enough, so don't complain.

 

I guess that's your take on it. The fact is that anyone who ignores that business element is just kidding themselves. I won't pretend to know what fraction of players are meta pushers that play necros and do T4/raids ... but I can bet it's not a big number. It's not big enough for Anet to break out the emergency balancing brigade and give Necro's 15% more DPS to fool people into thinking that's going to fix the meta problem with necros.

 

I'm putting my money on the fact that Anet realizes there is more to meta than just making sure classes hit some threshold of DPS ... that the problem much more complex; so much so that actively trying to predict what will happen to the meta if they change something just isn't worth the effort for the fraction of players that demand they do it. Therefore, they do the best they can with their regular approach, which is to follow a class theme and develop classes how they see fit. NO one I have seen in this thread claims Anet doesn't care ... but it is a very safe to say that there is a priority working here ... and balancing Necros according to Meta DPS isn't high or even on that priority list.

 

If you want performance, choose wise.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

> > >

> > > Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

> >

> > I think the real issue is that anet never imagined that groups would fill with necromancer and basing their whole strategy on an epidemic snowball effect. They intended epidemic to be used as a way to spread conditions not to concentrate them. So it was all good as long as it was used to kill trashs but the moment players stacked necromancers to use epidemic with the purpose of concentrating conditions onto a single foe, it became an exploit of an unintended effect.

> >

> > It is a matter of "purity of purpose", from the moment you go against the purpose of the skill and it's successfull, anet need to say whether it's a feature or an unintended exploit.

>

> Necros have been doing that since wing 2 though, I still remember epi bouncing during the mirror comp days. Given that, it would mean that anet has taken this long to "fix" that "problem", which given their track record, is unfortunately believable -_-

 

Well, since HoT, we've heard quite a few time from Anet that _epidemic_ was in their "radar" which can give some flesh to the fact that it's "unfortunately believable". On our record they were also planing to adapt the golem to underwater content since ages... so... From an outsider point of view I hardly believe that introducing the underwater golem was especially difficult since they just took an existing skin with very similar behavior.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> And you ignore burning, which is short and only occured on shroud auto, and torment which was on 1 skill. Also even if all skills were equal, scourge has more expertise with a trait, so duration of all conditions that arent bleeding are longer.

> Scourge epi will out dps reaper epi, again, because of a trait that increases torment by 33% damage.

> Also when did druid start bringing barrier? Barrier allowed epi groups to be more tanky.

> This is why epi groups showed up for scourges and not reapers.

 

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

 

Other than that the time shades were stacking, dps of scourge has never been too far ahead of scourge. You're over estimating how much damage a few extra burns and torment does compared to the amount of bleeds reapers were capable of pulling out. Also, healing>barrier, barrier at best can be compared to prot. Even then Prot>Barrier since it can be perma stacked unlike barrier unless you stack scourges.

 

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > Ah but epi nerf wasn't a matter of benchmark but a matter of unintended snowball effect that players choose to exploit after 5 years and a half in the game. ;)

> > > >

> > > > Wasn't a problem when reaper was doing it, still don't know why its an "exploit" all of a sudden

> > >

> > > I think the real issue is that anet never imagined that groups would fill with necromancer and basing their whole strategy on an epidemic snowball effect. They intended epidemic to be used as a way to spread conditions not to concentrate them. So it was all good as long as it was used to kill trashs but the moment players stacked necromancers to use epidemic with the purpose of concentrating conditions onto a single foe, it became an exploit of an unintended effect.

> > >

> > > It is a matter of "purity of purpose", from the moment you go against the purpose of the skill and it's successfull, anet need to say whether it's a feature or an unintended exploit.

> >

> > Necros have been doing that since wing 2 though, I still remember epi bouncing during the mirror comp days. Given that, it would mean that anet has taken this long to "fix" that "problem", which given their track record, is unfortunately believable -_-

>

> Well, since HoT, we've heard quite a few time from Anet that _epidemic_ was in their "radar" which can give some flesh to the fact that it's "unfortunately believable". On our record they were also planing to adapt the golem to underwater content since ages... so... From an outsider point of view I hardly believe that introducing the underwater golem was especially difficult since they just took an existing skin with very similar behavior.

 

as I said, sadly believeable :anguished:

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No, I'm just realistic and making observations about how the game works. I mean, yes, I am biased .... biased to what Anet does and how they do it.

Well, you're not fully. I never saw you posting anything in the huge [Epi needs to be nerfed](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36834/epidemic-in-raids-needs-to-be-nerfed) thread that's been there for months, about how you support the views of ANet, back then. Don't forget ANet has left Epi untouched for quite a long time, and eventually collapsed under the mostly Ele driven community complaints. The moment it was nerfed into the ground, you were back saying: THIS is balance how it's supposed to be!

I analyse a whole different bias here ... but hey, no hard feelings, right? ... Also, I really don't mind a bias, would be really wrong to do so, cause **I** fully admit I'm biased (towards the Necro, quite obviously), and pretty much do that in almost every thread. Imo, admitting your bias/flaws is step 1 ... I'd much rather prefer a good discussion with someone who's at least _self_ aware on those kind of points!

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I'm putting my money on the fact that Anet realizes there is more to meta than just making sure classes hit some threshold of DPS ... that the problem much more complex; so much so that actively trying to predict what will happen to the meta if they change something just isn't worth the effort for the fraction of players that demand they do it.

It isn't about the meta at all, it's about real statistics, real numbers, real thresholds, real benchmarks, etc. That they at some stage could result in becoming the meta, is not even that much of a concern, atm! No ... I care about the **fact** that the Necro has proven measured limits in so many areas including:

- DPS (lowest atm)

- Healing (not far from bottom atm)

- Boon uptime (near bottom atm)

- Boon share (near bottom atm)

- Class specific shared buffs/effects (pure count: somewhere low middle, in quantified usefulness (i.e. dps improvement > healing/survivability improvement) at the bottom of the chart again)

- Damage mitigation numbers during a certain timeframe (bottom of the pack ... again)

- CC (in breakbar damage numbers: bottom of the list .... AGAIN)

- Mobility skills/effects (including dodges, leaps, swiftness, movement speed+ skills/effects, superspeed, retreats, shadowsteps and teleports: ... rock bottom)

 

ANet should first look into the more _tangible_ issues like the ones above, before they move into lala-land, bring in the hash-pipe and start philosophizing about "plots" and complex "conspiracy's" that would or wouldn't change the current meta. Just give the Necro the 15%-20% DPS increase (which would bring them in line with the other classes on a measured/real numbers level) and we'll see!!!