3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> I guess that's your take on it. The fact is that anyone who ignores that business element is just kidding themselves. I won't pretend to know what fraction of players are meta pushers that play necros and do T4/raids ... but I can bet it's not a big number. It's not big enough for Anet to break out the emergency balancing brigade and give Necro's 15% more DPS to fool people into thinking that's going to fix the meta problem with necros.

>

 

 

It's ironic that you keep bringing up the business element, which it is bad business for them to leave an entire class in a balance state that they are auto-kicked in endgame pve. Not only is that demotivating to the people playing that class, it suggests to all players that they don't take class balance seriously, or in your eyes, at all. The meta problem with necros at the moment is one of two issues. They have lacking dps, which makes them not valued as a dps pick. They have lacking support, which makes them not valued as a tank, support or healer. Even before these nerfs, necro was only 'meta' for the abuse of one skill, which speaks to a larger problem within the way the class works. Core necro is flat out garbage for pve and our elite specs make us better, but fails to rise us to even mediocrity. 15% DPS increase in PvE only would be a bandaid fix to the bigger problem that the class is just not designed well for the game environment they have made.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> I'm putting my money on the fact that Anet realizes there is more to meta than just making sure classes hit some threshold of DPS ... that the problem much more complex; so much so that actively trying to predict what will happen to the meta if they change something just isn't worth the effort for the fraction of players that demand they do it. Therefore, they do the best they can with their regular approach, which is to follow a class theme and develop classes how they see fit. NO one I have seen in this thread claims Anet doesn't care ... but it is a very safe to say that there is a priority working here ... and balancing Necros according to Meta DPS isn't high or even on that priority list.

>

 

 

Everything you say in regards to the subject, including what you are pointing out in this, is dancing around the thought that anet doesn't care about the problem. If they are balancing purely around 'theme' (which is a ridiculous argument considering how many nerfs or buffs other classes have gotten, with the sole justification in the patch notes being: X class was underperforming or overperforming) then that would show that they didn't care about the player experience, and only cared about their own consideration of theme. I'm not necessarily of the opinion that it is true that anet doesn't care, I just think that perhaps the balance developers don't spend as much time thinking about necromancer as they do other classes. Perhaps because those classes have more roles available to them, perhaps because they just don't have a balance dev who really cares about the class enough to look at it's real problems, perhaps because they just know the class is too broken and that it needs a rework. It certainly isn't this 4d chess you suggest, however. The one who I suspect doesn't care at all, is you, aside from your seeming desire to demotivate people from changing the class, perhaps because you just don't want to see variety in endgame.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> If you want performance, choose ~~wise~~ another profession.

>

>

 

Fixed it for you.

[Axl.8924]

Personally, after the nerfs to both necro and to spells of tempest, i became demotivated and quit gw2, mostly necro.

 

I love necro and was passionate about it, but i can't take the nerfs anymore, it just kills me that my main was being gutted.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Correct me if im wrong, but necros got the most AoE's in Game or not?

Doing lowest Single Target dmg then seems reasonable, but since ONE NUMBER is everything some guys are looking at ... well ;)

[FaboBabo.3581]

When you clear a Boss in 5 minutes usually - 300 seconds, and 6 dmg dealers deal 20k dmg instead of 30k per second u will loose a total of 3.000.000 damage over those 300 seconds.

6 Dmg dealer can apply 3.000.000 damage in roughly 25 seconds.

 

HOLY CRAP U WASTED 25 SECONDS.

Thats why i hate the elitism.

They got hours of time to insult you in Chat, or write Forum Posts about people beeing dump, but they dont got those 25 seconds ;)

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> When you clear a Boss in 5 minutes usually - 300 seconds, and 6 dmg dealers deal 20k dmg instead of 30k per second u will loose a total of 3.000.000 damage over those 300 seconds.

> 6 Dmg dealer can apply 3.000.000 damage in roughly 25 seconds.

>

> HOLY CRAP U WASTED 25 SECONDS.

> Thats why i hate the elitism.

> They got hours of time to insult you in Chat, or write Forum Posts about people beeing dump, but they dont got those 25 seconds ;)

 

 

<3

 

In many many many encounters exactly that.

The few that really (!!) require you to burn it, otherwise you die 99%, put aside.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> Correct me if im wrong, but necros got the most AoE's in Game or not?

> Doing lowest Single Target dmg then seems reasonable, but since ONE NUMBER is everything some guys are looking at ... well ;)

 

You are wrong. By far, elementalists have the most AoE's in the game. Necromancers have a distinct *lack* of aoes, which was in large part always explained away because of the power of Epidemic. This was essentially the necromaner's answer to cleave, because the base necro kit had very little to no cleave. The idea for years has always been the necromancer loads one target (the strongest one) up with conditions, then epidemic to spread those condi's to all the other mobs in the area. Scourge has given necro some access to aoe, but it's still a candle in the wind next to elementalists.

 

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> When you clear a Boss in 5 minutes usually - 300 seconds, and 6 dmg dealers deal 20k dmg instead of 30k per second u will loose a total of 3.000.000 damage over those 300 seconds.

> 6 Dmg dealer can apply 3.000.000 damage in roughly 25 seconds.

>

> HOLY CRAP U WASTED 25 SECONDS.

> Thats why i hate the elitism.

> They got hours of time to insult you in Chat, or write Forum Posts about people beeing dump, but they dont got those 25 seconds ;)

 

I'm going to imagine that you just don't raid very often to have this opinion. In real raid scenarios, very few people are actually doing benchmark dps. The benchmark dps is just a reflection of potential dps. Very few bosses are actually just tank and spank, and Keep Construct is the biggest example of where dps burst is the most relevant. Let's say on average, everyone loses 10k dps due to needing to execute mechanics. A class who has a benchmark of 30k per second is now doing 20k per second. A class doing 20k is now doing 10k. It's often not about saving time, but the difference between clearing the content or not, as insufficient dps means you don't reach the phases at the right time, hit enrage timers, die to instant-kill mechanics, get overwhelmed by adds, etc. It's not as simple as a flat, Damage versus time equals seconds extra.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> Correct me if im wrong, but necros got the most AoE's in Game or not?

 

I'll correct you then: they don't have the most AoE in game.

 

Obviously it depend a lot of what you meant by your sentence but in most case you cannot say that the necromancer got the most aoe in game, elementalists an engineers beat necrmancer hand down at this aoe game.

 

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> Correct me if im wrong, but necros got the most AoE's in Game or not?

> Doing lowest Single Target dmg then seems reasonable,

 

Sure, let me correct you, because you _are_ wrong ... If you take Wiki's literal description of an AoE: "Area of Effect refers to skills or other gameplay mechanics that affect creatures in a specific proximity to the target". Necro is doing again REALLY bad! Hell, even a Thief's dagger is technically an AoE weapon, cause it's hitting one foe near your target as well. Whereas the Necro has it's Axe, Scepter, its minions, (half of the) corruptions all only hitting _one_ foe!

 

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> but since ONE NUMBER is everything some guys are looking at ... well ;)

I can imagine it's hard to read, cause it was just 2 posts above yours, but here you go:

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> It isn't about the meta at all, it's about real statistics, real numbers, real thresholds, real benchmarks, etc. That they at some stage could result in becoming the meta, is not even that much of a concern, atm! No ... I care about the **fact** that the Necro has proven measured limits in so many areas including:

> - DPS (lowest atm)

> - Healing (not far from bottom atm)

> - Boon uptime (near bottom atm)

> - Boon share (near bottom atm)

> - Class specific shared buffs/effects (pure count: somewhere low middle, in quantified usefulness (i.e. dps improvement > healing/survivability improvement) at the bottom of the chart again)

> - Damage mitigation numbers during a certain timeframe (bottom of the pack ... again)

> - CC (in breakbar damage numbers: bottom of the list .... AGAIN)

> - Mobility skills/effects (including dodges, leaps, swiftness, movement speed+ skills/effects, superspeed, retreats, shadowsteps and teleports: ... rock bottom)

>

> ANet should first look into the more _tangible_ issues like the ones above, before they move into lala-land, bring in the hash-pipe and start philosophizing about "plots" and complex "conspiracy's" that would or wouldn't change the current meta. Just give the Necro the 15%-20% DPS increase (which would bring them in line with the other classes on a measured/real numbers level) and we'll see!!!

 

It's not just ONE number! It's many! Give us the highest boonshare uptime or even the highest boon uptime (a number that you can quite easily track (there are tools), and which the Necro is one of the worst at), and we would already be happy(er). Give us some more offensive support capabilities or tweak the numbers, so it's not anymore at the bottom of the list (take the ICD away from Vampiric Pressence for instance). OR, _do_ give us the highest Cleave burst damage in the field, of which we are also one of the worst atm. Epi, our highest AoE atm is nerfed to the ground and has a really high ramp up time! And our Reaper which _should_ be your best PB burster in the game is laughed at by Warriors, Guardians, Holo's, Chrono's, Soulbeasts, Thiefs (like I said, daggers _are_ AoE!!!), even Sword Ele's. It's pathetic really!

[Rasta.2371]

How much of a discrepancy is reasonable due to game balance. Let's say Weaver does 40k on Golem, Deadeye D/D 37K and Power Engineer 33K. Do these people require that for large target bosses everyone now has to roll a weaver? It's a 7K difference, even if theoretically you play different!. I get it when someone just doesn't pull their weight (10k dps)., but now this is intrinsic due to game balance.. how elitist are people willing to get? Most of us want some semblance of balance and still retain some profession uniqueness, but extreme elitism is very bad.

[Rasta.2371]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > Correct me if im wrong, but necros got the most AoE's in Game or not?

> > Doing lowest Single Target dmg then seems reasonable, but since ONE NUMBER is everything some guys are looking at ... well ;)

>

> You are wrong. By far, elementalists have the most AoE's in the game. Necromancers have a distinct *lack* of aoes, which was in large part always explained away because of the power of Epidemic. This was essentially the necromaner's answer to cleave, because the base necro kit had very little to no cleave. The idea for years has always been the necromancer loads one target (the strongest one) up with conditions, then epidemic to spread those condi's to all the other mobs in the area. Scourge has given necro some access to aoe, but it's still a candle in the wind next to elementalists.

>

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > When you clear a Boss in 5 minutes usually - 300 seconds, and 6 dmg dealers deal 20k dmg instead of 30k per second u will loose a total of 3.000.000 damage over those 300 seconds.

> > 6 Dmg dealer can apply 3.000.000 damage in roughly 25 seconds.

> >

> > HOLY CRAP U WASTED 25 SECONDS.

> > Thats why i hate the elitism.

> > They got hours of time to insult you in Chat, or write Forum Posts about people beeing dump, but they dont got those 25 seconds ;)

>

> I'm going to imagine that you just don't raid very often to have this opinion. In real raid scenarios, very few people are actually doing benchmark dps. The benchmark dps is just a reflection of potential dps. Very few bosses are actually just tank and spank, and Keep Construct is the biggest example of where dps burst is the most relevant. Let's say on average, everyone loses 10k dps due to needing to execute mechanics. A class who has a benchmark of 30k per second is now doing 20k per second. A class doing 20k is now doing 10k. It's often not about saving time, but the difference between clearing the content or not, as insufficient dps means you don't reach the phases at the right time, hit enrage timers, die to instant-kill mechanics, get overwhelmed by adds, etc. It's not as simple as a flat, Damage versus time equals seconds extra.

 

Good post, understand mechanics is just as important as sitting there spanking the golem. Anyone can sit there and learn to spank the golem, can you do all of that intrinsically while performing mechanics?

 

Instead of nerfing necro can't anet just add condition removal to mobs..

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > I guess that's your take on it. The fact is that anyone who ignores that business element is just kidding themselves. I won't pretend to know what fraction of players are meta pushers that play necros and do T4/raids ... but I can bet it's not a big number. It's not big enough for Anet to break out the emergency balancing brigade and give Necro's 15% more DPS to fool people into thinking that's going to fix the meta problem with necros.

> >

>

>

> It's ironic that you keep bringing up the business element, which it is bad business for them to leave an entire class in a balance state that they are auto-kicked in endgame pve.

 

Is it? That's a pretty strong statement considering GW2 is still here after 6 years with the same level of class balance it had when it started. I don't see any irony here; all business have people that patronize them, dislike the offering and end up going somewhere else. For some reason you think that's a valid reason for Anet to change how they do things? You think the critical mass of players unhappy with this situation is so large that them leaving will have a profound effect on Anet's ability to continue to run this business? I think we have 6 years of this game running that paints a different picture.

 

I don't think it's bad for business at all. Anet sets the expectation for what the game delivers and it's pretty clear to me that for class balance, the expectation is that you don't get equivalent DPS. If your expectation is that it should, that's not a reason for Anet change it; it's a reason for you to reconsider how you regard the game and how you play it ... if at all.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > >

> > > I guess that's your take on it. The fact is that anyone who ignores that business element is just kidding themselves. I won't pretend to know what fraction of players are meta pushers that play necros and do T4/raids ... but I can bet it's not a big number. It's not big enough for Anet to break out the emergency balancing brigade and give Necro's 15% more DPS to fool people into thinking that's going to fix the meta problem with necros.

> > >

> >

> >

> > It's ironic that you keep bringing up the business element, which it is bad business for them to leave an entire class in a balance state that they are auto-kicked in endgame pve.

>

> Is it? That's a pretty strong statement considering GW2 is still here after 6 years with the same level of class balance it had when it started. I don't see any irony here; all business have people that patronize them, dislike the offering and end up going somewhere else. For some reason you think that's a valid reason for Anet to change how they do things? You think the critical mass of players unhappy with this situation is so large that them leaving will have a profound effect on Anet's ability to continue to run this business? I think we have 6 years of this game running that paints a different picture.

>

> I don't think it's bad for business at all. Anet sets the expectation for what the game delivers and it's pretty clear to me that for class balance, the expectation is that you don't get equivalent DPS. If your expectation is that it should, that's not a reason for Anet change it; it's a reason for you to reconsider how you regard the game and how you play it ... if at all.

 

Being bottom of the barrel in all 3 groups is unacceptable for pve, and now they are broken for spvp too.No matter how you rationalize its just not good game design.Limiting player choice hurts the desirability to replay the game and enjoy different playstyles and find one you enjoy.

 

Say for instance you like lets say:D/P, that would be unacceptable and bad design, worse yet:They broke necros for pve and gave people a reason to rationalize and be elitist over why not to take necro in tier 4 fractals and raids.

 

Can necros group up and raid together? maybe but its hard to find enough people.

 

You need to stop rationalizing this, because if this was your favorite class you would realize this is just plain wrong.Wether ot not i believe that ANET really doesn't know what to do.

[Obtena.7952]

No it's not good ... I didn't say it was. I said that the attention it deserves is related to the size of the problem it presents. Maybe people should stop rationalizing their POV with some of the most ridiculous arguments ever presented as well. It's not about what's wrong or right, and you know it.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> Is it? That's a pretty strong statement considering GW2 is still here after 6 years with the same level of class balance it had when it started. I don't see any irony here; all business have people that patronize them, dislike the offering and end up going somewhere else. For some reason you think that's a valid reason for Anet to change how they do things? You think the critical mass of players unhappy with this situation is so large that them leaving will have a profound effect on Anet's ability to continue to run this business? I think we have 6 years of this game running that paints a different picture.

>

> I don't think it's bad for business at all. Anet sets the expectation for what the game delivers and it's pretty clear to me that for class balance, the expectation is that you don't get equivalent DPS. If your expectation is that it should, that's not a reason for Anet change it; it's a reason for you to reconsider how you regard the game and how you play it ... if at all.

 

Except that it hasn't. Necro has not been in the bottom the entire time, even if it has been for much of it. There was a variety of periods where Condi Reaper was relevant, Scourge was meta, then relevant for awhile, and only recently has been broken into obscurity. They keep trying to buff up Reaper to be more relevant as a power dps, but it hasn't been enough. They have been trying to correct different balance mistakes over time, but I suspect that they just don't have an individual dedicated to the matter like they may have for certain other class groups.

 

Until you become an employee of Anet, you really have no right to state what their vision of class balance is, as if it were some sort of fact. Presumably, the balance developers rely on people to inform them of their experiences and you stepping up to tell us that we are supposed to suck at dps, is just muddling the waters for no purpose other than whatever selfish mentality perpetuates your presence on this topic. You think necro should be bad at dps, support, healing. We get it. Your opinion isn't relevant to the balance discussion when the opinion is just: You're supposed to be here, I think.

[Barnabus Stinson.1409]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

>

> Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

>

> I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

 

You realise you are argueing they havent done something so they shouldnt?

"You need surgery, but we havent done it yet so nah we wont do it" Seems completely sensible

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > Is it? That's a pretty strong statement considering GW2 is still here after 6 years with the same level of class balance it had when it started. I don't see any irony here; all business have people that patronize them, dislike the offering and end up going somewhere else. For some reason you think that's a valid reason for Anet to change how they do things? You think the critical mass of players unhappy with this situation is so large that them leaving will have a profound effect on Anet's ability to continue to run this business? I think we have 6 years of this game running that paints a different picture.

> >

> > I don't think it's bad for business at all. Anet sets the expectation for what the game delivers and it's pretty clear to me that for class balance, the expectation is that you don't get equivalent DPS. If your expectation is that it should, that's not a reason for Anet change it; it's a reason for you to reconsider how you regard the game and how you play it ... if at all.

>

> Except that it hasn't. Necro has not been in the bottom the entire time, even if it has been for much of it. There was a variety of periods where Condi Reaper was relevant, Scourge was meta, then relevant for awhile, and only recently has been broken into obscurity. They keep trying to buff up Reaper to be more relevant as a power dps, but it hasn't been enough. They have been trying to correct different balance mistakes over time, but I suspect that they just don't have an individual dedicated to the matter like they may have for certain other class groups.

>

How do you not see the fact that Necro was good and now is not IS evidence Anet doesn't balance to the DPS meta? You don't think that if they 'got it' for a class, they would have left it there if their goal was Meta DPS balancing? I do.

 

> Until you become an employee of Anet, you really have no right to state what their vision of class balance is, as if it were some sort of fact.

 

You don't need to be an employee of Anet to 'get the rights' to observe the game and see how things work. If it's not a fact that Anet doesn't balance to Meta DPS standards, then why don't we have it after 6 years of the game existing and many balance patches later? ANYONE can see that we don't have Meta DPS balance ... but your going to tell me I'm unreasonable in stating they don't balance to it after 6 years? Right ... you got this ALL figured out.

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> It's amazing to me the level of hoop jumping some of you guys do to justify your mentality, with the sum of your arguments to the issue basically being: Meh, Anet doesn't care because you aren't important enough, so don't complain.

>

> Why are you all up on the thread pushing an assumption that the balance developers don't care, exactly? Trying to demotivate the playerbase for seeking positive change? What exactly is the issue with a subset of players wanting to be relevant in a PUG environment? What exactly is the problem with people wanting their favorite class to do more DPS than a different classes version of a SUPPORT build? People are pointing out logical fallacies to the balance design, and you just have to be all up in the thread to throw in there that anet don't care, you should really just be quiet and deal with it.

>

> I also tend to think that everyone who is talking about forming their own guild/group for raiding in off-meta setups has never really tried it themselves. First off, setting up a static of normal people can be a challenging endeavor. Getting 10 people to consistently show up to the same designated time on a particular day is often a difficult task for normal raiders, let alone throwing in the caveat that they have to be okay with non-meta builds and a greater chance of not clearing the content. You aren't dropping wisdom by saying all these people should band together and do necro-only clears, we all have different work schedules, life schedules, timezones. It's hard getting normal statics going with these factors at play, let alone throwing in this extra crap. Not to mention the raid system as it is now, doesn't really help the concept all that much because of the way raid rewards work. Shard capping, reward caps, all make it so people want to get their boss clears in as effectively as possible. Doing it past that point is just cost-prohibitive due to food/utilities/time invested not being worth it.

>

> In short, necromancer's current design is severely flawed, and it doesn't mesh with the endgame content. Complaints about this are valid. If anet doesn't care and won't change it, then that is how it is going to be, and nobody really needs you bringing that assumption in here as it in no way debates the point of the topic.

 

I run a guild so I am fully aware of how hard it is to get 10 people to consistently show up for anything. I typically get about 2 to 3 players who regularly show up. The EU side of the guild told me it took them months before they got people to regularly show up. So it's a time-consuming activity. However, I mention forming your own groups because it is a proactive solution to your problem. Sitting back and complaining on the forums is a passive act that is likely nothing more than white noise to them. They likely know that this is an ongoing problem and they are likely working on it and not having much luck with finding a solution.

 

I get it you guys want to play with the PUGs but seriously you can either form your own groups or you can continue to wait and miss out. You don't have to miss out. It may be harder and more of a challenge but you have more options than complaining on the forums and waiting for ANet to finally figure out a fix. I guess since I've always believed in being proactive in life instead of sitting back and waiting for something to happen I will never understand why people will actively choose not to do anything to change the situation.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> >

> > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> >

> > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

>

> You realise you are argueing they havent done something so they shouldnt?

 

Yes, I do realize that. I believe that the lack of Meta DPS balance is intentional because it's not needed to be successful in this game, so it's not hard for me to think they shouldn't balance according to Meta DPS standard

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> > >

> > > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> > >

> > > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

> >

> > You realise you are argueing they havent done something so they shouldnt?

>

> Yes, I do realize that. I believe that the lack of Meta DPS balance is intentional because it's not needed to be successful in this game, so it's not hard for me to think they shouldn't balance according to Meta DPS standard

 

So it's ok that one class in particular is being relatively disproportionately discriminated, thus has considerably less chances to be successful, as long as it can be successful? Captivating logic, really!

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> > > >

> > > > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> > > >

> > > > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

> > >

> > > You realise you are argueing they havent done something so they shouldnt?

> >

> > Yes, I do realize that. I believe that the lack of Meta DPS balance is intentional because it's not needed to be successful in this game, so it's not hard for me to think they shouldn't balance according to Meta DPS standard

>

> So it's ok that one class in particular is being relatively disproportionately discriminated, thus has considerably less chances to be successful, as long as it can be successful? Captivating logic, really!

 

The mistake you have made here is that a class that has relatively low DPS doesn't have a lower chance to be successful. That's a function of how you play and who you team with, not how much damage you do. Like I already said, the threshold for success in this game is low, so it's not a reason to balance a class by Meta DPS standards.

 

 

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > First, GW2 does have dedicated healers so ... ????

> > > > >

> > > > > Second, it's irrelevant that Necros get kicked from groups. It's not a reason for Anet to fix the issue because 1) the issue is comparatively SMALL for the majority of the people that play this game and 2) if it was a reason, they would have done something about it already because it's been happening for 6 years. There are many other reasons being kicked from groups isn't a concern, but frankly, I'm just tired of listing them all the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > I get that YOU and others think it's an issue; decisions to do things in the game are not just based on what a group of players think, including balancing according to players version of meta DPS

> > > >

> > > > You realise you are argueing they havent done something so they shouldnt?

> > >

> > > Yes, I do realize that. I believe that the lack of Meta DPS balance is intentional because it's not needed to be successful in this game, so it's not hard for me to think they shouldn't balance according to Meta DPS standard

> >

> > So it's ok that one class in particular is being relatively disproportionately discriminated, thus has considerably less chances to be successful, as long as it can be successful? Captivating logic, really!

>

> In essence, yes. The mistake you have made here is that a class that has relatively low DPS doesn't have a lower chance to be successful. That's a function of how you play and who you team with. Like I already said, the threshold for success in this game is low, so it's not a reason to balance a class by Meta DPS standards.

 

That's just not true. Due to game mechanics, more dps always means "more success". Just look at literally every single raid boss: The more dps you have, the more mechanics you can circumvent, best example: Updrafts at Gorsy-chan. More dps makes raids exceptionally easier.

[Obtena.7952]

That makes no sense ... just because it's easier doesn't make you more successful. You get the same loot regardless of how much DPS you do. Besides, you aren't soloing those group instanced content, so success is more dependent on the team make up than any one individual persons' DPS.

 

The best part is that people already proved this every day since the game started. People raid in nonmeta team comps all the time and do so successfully. People have been soloing dungeons (when that was the most challenging group content) with terrible DPS builds ... they still succeeded and got the same loot any speed run group got. The irony is that those were metapushers trying to 'prove' people need to play meta.

[Taqe.1342]

If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro? so what he will get more support? will yo clear content faster? will it matter? as you say it, it won't so whats the problem? you don't have the problem with necro having less dps, cuz he can still clear content, so buff his damage he will clear content 2 seconds faster, as you said it doesn't matter if someone finnishes content a little faster, as you stated you are fine with other classes doing it faster then necro? so whats the problem? why are you against buffs to necro?

It all doesn't matter in the end you get the same reward, so ele can clear lets say 15 sec, necro in 20 seconds, just an example. You are fine with it, right? the end result is the same, right? so lets say ele clear in 15 sec and necro in 14 seconds, you have a problem with that? they still get the same reward at the end, right?

Most ppl here don't want necro to be all end all and be master in everything, they just want them to perform better, if there is a room for improvement, why not make it?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Taqe.1342" said:

> If all of this don't matter, then why you have such problem with buffs to necro?

 

I don't have a problem with buffs to necro. I have a problem with people pushing meta in a game where you don't need to play meta to succeed. The idea that Necro gets 'meta DPS' to become meta is nonsense to begin with; Meta isn't something that's planned; it's based on optimized play. Why would giving Necro meta-level DPS optimize play in any way?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

At this point it is clear someone on this thread does not raid or raids very casually, they can show me ingame a demon demise or voice of the void title to change my mind at this point. Dps is a big deal in raid because it allows mechanics to reduced or skipped. No one does the mechanics of kc because with a decent dps check 3 mechanics can be skipped.

Xera is much easier with high dps because it lower the orb clearing mechanics significantly.

Does anyone do updrafts on gors, remember that is a mechanic.

The longer an encounter goes, the more likely someone will mess up, and wipe the group. Deimos, sab, math, dhuum, Sh, samerog, and even sloth has mechanics where one person can wipe the group if they fail the mechanic.