eldain stenlund.4306 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > This difference between Anet and meta-players balance definition is why you will never get the 'balancing' you are talking about. The reason that difference exists is because GW2 is a fundamentally unique game in its concept. It's not that I'm against 'balancing', it's that I recognize that Anet's version is not typical and DPS isn't the primary measure of what balance is. > > Logical thinking ... indeed. Some should try it. Nothing Unique about GW2. Lets check...to give you proof. GW2 and all other MMO have: 1: MMO concept. -Yes 2: Different classes. -Yes. 3: Stories. -Yes. 4: Shitty balance due to incompetent designers. -Yes. 5: Fotm bullshit. -Yes. etc etc etc. Seem the same to me.... so nothing "fundamentally unique" at all. They all have the same shit. And they all miss the true logic. Balanced game = more people will join = more people will buy shit, = more money. Arenanet have the same stupidity as greedy shortsighted governments. "oh crap, we need more money, too few people travel by buss and train, so we need to increase the ticket prices" When they SHOULD reduce the price to get more people..... (hence balance the game to get more people and more money) Same stupidity. Seems you Obtena need to use that "logical thinking" yourself.... (as well as Arenanet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetatis.5418 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game" lets throw in some discussion material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"eldain stenlund.4306" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > This difference between Anet and meta-players balance definition is why you will never get the 'balancing' you are talking about. The reason that difference exists is because GW2 is a fundamentally unique game in its concept. It's not that I'm against 'balancing', it's that I recognize that Anet's version is not typical and DPS isn't the primary measure of what balance is. > > > > Logical thinking ... indeed. Some should try it. > > Nothing Unique about GW2. > Lets check...to give you proof. Nothing you provided here proves GW2 isn't unique in how it offers content to players; you have simply presented a handful of common elements ... that's a contrived proof. I don't really see the point of continually denying the obvious though. Are you another person that thinks meta balance is the target Anet has set for themselves? I don't think that's being honest with yourself if that's the case. If you are, let us know how that's working out ... If you can't see that Anet has a different idea of what balance is after 6 years of the game existing, I can't show it to you here. > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > First, you litterally just said it wasnt worth wanting cause it will take time. > Second, as a person who has played since Beta I have seen the game evolve, and in that time things that started out incredibly unbalanced have been reviewed and changed. A very good example being Engi. Or even Necro itself. It has come on a long way since being perma banned from dungeons to being begrudgingly accepted but not desired. So Anet does see the need for balance, their implementation of which is a little cautious and has to reflect all levels of play, and game types. First, no I did NOT literally just say it wasn't worth wanting cause it will take time. That's just being ridiculous. Second, yes, Anet does balance the game, but as someone who claims to have played since Beta, it should be obvious to you that what Anet considers a balance has little to do with what players throw around as balance based on the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldain stenlund.4306 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Nothing you provided here proves GW2 isn't unique in how it offers content to players; you have simply presented a handful of common elements ... that's a contrived proof. You seem to think that GW2 is unique. (even when it is not) So, tell what is so unique then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"eldain stenlund.4306" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Nothing you provided here proves GW2 isn't unique in how it offers content to players; you have simply presented a handful of common elements ... that's a contrived proof. > > You seem to think that GW2 is unique. (even when it is not) > So, tell what is so unique then. > It's unique because you don't need meta balance to play it due to the ideas that come together to form the game .. .like no trinity, no spawn ownership, etc.... Obviously you aren't aware or refuse to acknowledge those things since you didn't pick up on them from your first terse 'proof' the game isn't unique in any way that would result in meta balance to be unnecessary ... so I see little reason to debate it with you further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmoon.7986 Posted July 29, 2018 Author Share Posted July 29, 2018 I feel like someone has to be a poe at this point. Making arguements about open world, when the side effect of doing 10% less damage than all other classes is exclusion from cm fractals and raids. Balancing for open world encounters is dumb because there are no hard open world encounters, they can all be zerged/ spam 1. Also thinking the balance team is playing this 4d chess, i honestly dont buy that theory as well. Look at reaper gs, designed to be a aoe power weapon, in its hey day, it was a single target condi weapon pre pof hitting around 31k. And after all these power buffs since pof, condi is still slightly better than power for gs. I dont think anets know what to do with necro. Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class, turned into a single target condi using whirl finishers. Scourge was supposed to be a support class, turned into a aoe condi bombing class. I feel they can't fix the class because if they push the class in the direction they want, it will op what they created, but they are too afraid take away from what they created. Id trade condi reaper for a power reaper that can do 31 to 33k dps. Id trade condi scourge for a support scourge that has buffs as good as druid. I feel it cant be that hard to make a wanted support scourge, give the old gotl buff to barrier applications and make vamp aura a percent damage increase and healthing instead of a flat rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > @"Odeezee.7362" said: > > > > > > > @"Arzurag.7506" said: > > > > > > > Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro. > > > > > > > Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > what the actual f*ck? how is this even something to say as though it's okay? ANet suck at balancing and that's why PvP died and they are now working on the rest of the game to give it the end they gave to PvP. and people want to just accept this sort of trash tier balancing???!!! /sigh > > > > > > > > > > He said it because it's true. Someone is going to be at the bottom. It sucks when that bottom is you but someone is always there. I've played enough games over the years to know that while a development team sets out to build a balanced game they rarely end up doing so. I have yet to play the game where someone didn't think that the games developers don't suck at game balance. > > > > > > > > There's so many things wrong with this! It sucks when that bottom is you: it even sucks more if that bottom is _always_ you! But easily fixable: put the factor _time_ in the balancing equation and you're done with it! I.e., in the upcoming 5 years, the Necro will be your absolute highest DPS kings! _I_ would definitely not mind ... I think a lot of people will complain though .... And you'll probably be one of them! > > > > > > > > Secondly: there are games that balance on a more Flavor of the Month kind of method, where the META changes (sometimes even significantly) every (few) month(s) or so! Imo, that's balancing I would prefer FAR better, then what ANet is doing right now. I also believe that it would make the PUGing community a lot less toxic, mainly because of the fact that it doesn't matter too much on who or what you take, simply because you just don't know for certain what is the best of the best now anyway .... METAs need time to settle, definitely in such a dynamic environment. > > > > > > There is, in fact, nothing wrong with it. There is always a bottom, always. And if you had read my follow up comment I state that I'm not suggesting that Necromancer should always be that bottom, just that it's not bad, wrong, or EVIL to state the obvious, that someone will be at the bottom. Though it's worth pointing out that Revenant seems to be worse off than Necromancer. I guess you can duke it out with them for the right to be able to claim you're the worst off profession. > > > > > > But if you think I would complain then you're not really reading what I'm saying as I actually like Necromancer. I have not actually said I like Necromancer at the bottom. I'm just stating the truth that someone is going to be at the bottom. You seem to be reading intent into what has been stated that isn't actually there. > > > > > > It's odd that people get so upset over stating such a simple fact. Even your suggestion of the flavor of the month Meta changes places someone at the bottom. Though what you suggest likely isn't going to turn out the way you want it too. If the Meta is changing so fast that no one knows for certain who is best then odds are strong that the professions that are at the bottom now stay at the bottom as there wouldn't be time to fine tune what is working and what isn't working. > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"mikeeens.3542" said: > > > > > U cant expect each class with the same balances. There will be always atleast 1 class wich will do less dmg than others... its normal... wrong would be if u couldnt kill anything... then i would agree. > > > > > > > > > > Then ArenaNET should buff each class <% without changing skill cooldowns etc... just buff all classes and thats all... and then game will be booring a/f, because u could kill everything EZ... now u need to challange urself to be better, to make ur character better... > > > > > > > > So it's right that necro is always at the bottom? And other classes aren't allowed to be at the bottom, only necro? > > > > Sure there will be someone doing less dmg than others, but it's the difference that matters. But it doesn't have to be always necro. And that's how it was and is. Necro was only good when unintended things happened. > > > > -horrors > > > > -dhuumfire bug > > > > -epi bounce > > > > That's the only 3 times when necro was good and instant got nerfed to be at the bottom again. > > > > I only play for 3years now. So i started before hot. > > > > And necro was always bottom. And from what people tell me, necro was bottom from the beginning of gw2, > > > > While ele was always top. > > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" > > > > And if anyone says that rev is bad or bottom, this guy makes me mad. > > > > Sure it has its problems but it's super good in PvP and wvw. > > > > And In dmg it's way above necro. So why should it be worse than necro? > > > > > > I do not think you are actually reading what people are saying. I haven't argued that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"mikeeens.3542" isn't arguing that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"Obtena.7952" is not arguing that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"Arzurag.7506" is not arguing that Necromancer has to be the bottom. All that is being said is that a bottom exists and someone will always occupy it. I'm not sure why you would be mad that Revenant players say they are at the bottom. Last I checked they are not super good in PvP or WvW. I find it bizarre that folks would be upset that someone is saying there is a bottom but then argue that no one else should claim that they are at the bottom. Having followed the Revenant side of things I'm inclined to say they have just as much claim to the bottom as Necromancer does. If we were to take a look at some of the meta builds at present metabattle shows one Revenant build in it's overall meta for PvP and Necromancer with four builds, with two of them being in the Meta category while the Revenant one is in the Good category. In WvW Revenant has three and Necromancer has four. In both modes of play I have observed far more Necromancers than I have Revenants. As a matter of fact, before the patch, I saw about as many Scourges (and some Reapers) as I did Thief and Mesmer (I haven't played WvW since the patch so I cannot comment on if that has changed). One of the things that we had to worry about were the Scourges rolling out the red carpet. Thus I do not think that Necromancer has the only claim to being at the bottom. > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW > > > > Lol arguing with meta battle builds. Sorry but most of these builds aren't up to date and not very good. > > More necros is easy to explain: it was brain-dead gameplay before dhuumfire nerf. Just spam those shade abilities. But that not what good scourges did. > > Rev is just harder to play, but more rewarding and its far less dependant on teammates to heal/support him. > > > > Yes. I said somewhere that necro is still strong in wvw. > > But in pve it's now: join group, get kicked. > > > > Won't happen to a rev. But he's also very strong in wvw. And pvp if you are a good rev. > > > > While necro got again pushed into the: go-afk-farm-with-ur-minions-as-only-friends- role again. > > Actually, no I'm not arguing with metabattle builds. I'm really not judging the quality of those builds just pointing out that sites dedicated to builds have X numbers to show. If you have a better site than metabattle then, by all means, link it so I can have someplace else to look at builds at. I have consitently asked folks for other build sites that has a collection of builds and consitently people come back with metabattle. However, when the OP is making an argument based on benchmark test then pointing out what metabattle has to offer is fairly appropriate. Also people wouldn't be playing Scourges if it was bad. Yeah it may be brain dead game play but that does not mean something is good or bad. Scourge clearly had a powerful affect on the game and the increased number of Scourges meant that they were, on some level, not the worst. You do not get a bunch of people playing a brain dead build and Elite if it's actually bad. What good Scourge players do is removed from the issue of if Necromancer is the worst profession. The change to Dhuumfire is too new for anyone to sit back and claim that Necromancer is not the worst of the worst. Game play will let us see that in the long term. Also, if Necromancer is good in WvW then it can't be said that it's bad. You can't say the entire profession is bad based on one mode of play. It would be more accurate to say that Necromancer under performs in PvE but is fine in WvW. But that doesn't seem to be the thrust of what people are arguing. > > You also seem to be cherry picking qualities to keep Necromancer as bad. Which is fine but that still isn't really what I was pointing out in the first place. I was specifically speaking to the fact that someone has to be at the bottom and questioning why Necromancers fight for the right to have that honor. As for the strength of Revenant, those folks will disagree with you on the strength of the profession in PvP and WvW. So why are you battling it out with them for the honor of being the worst? > > > @"Conqueror.3682" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > It's just the reality of competitive gameplay with factions. Now, I'm not saying that Necromancer needs to always be at the bottom (though I keep hearing that Revenant is really the bottom) but let's not act like saying there is always going to be a bottom is sacrilege and something a person should never ever ever ever say. It's ok to say that someone is going to be at the bottom because someone is going to be the bottom. If it's not Necromancer then it would have been someone else. > > > > > > But I do agree with you on the matter of people obeying "stupid raid sites" as I personally think folks should play what they find fun and more people should be open to allowing people to play whats fun. I don't think everything in the game needs to be about the most DPS you can put out. I main Engineer and Revenant. While Revenant is not the best of the best its loads of fun for me. I have Necromancer as one of my more frequently played back up alts (the other being Elementalist). It really should be the case that more people are accepting of folks who don't care about top DPS. > > > > My issue here is that i really could have no problem if necromancer is in the bottom, but not by huge margins, you see, every other profession can reach at least 32k dps, and necromancer cant even go over 29k. See the problem here? If i would ask for something, is to do at least 32k-35k dps in a single target, WITHOUTH epidemic, and do 38k with epidemic. > > > > So if i gonna pick a dps, then why the hell i would pick a profession which doesnt so much less damage than the others? > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > Scourge is also difficult to use and reaper is frustrating for healers. So both cases they are headaches. If they're not good while being difficult and frustrating for other players why should you bring them? > > > > Well, i see every class as difficult to use, so thats irrelevant, also i dont see the problem with scourge being a headache, if scourge could reach acceptable levels of damage, then no one would be complaining. Not so much experience with reaper, but thats more of a design problem with shroud, anyways, doesnt matter because reaper does even less damage than Scourge. > > > > Why is being at the bottom judged by DPS? There are other aspects that are important to things like Raids, PvP, and WvW aside from pure DPS. If DPS was all that mattered then honestly the only profession being played would be Elementalist as last I checked they were still the kings and queens of DPS. Also, not every profession is difficult to use. Some are insanely easy and straightforward. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > I do not think you are actually reading what people are saying. I haven't argued that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"mikeeens.3542" isn't arguing that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"Obtena.7952" is not arguing that Necromancer needs to be at the bottom. @"Arzurag.7506" is not arguing that Necromancer has to be the bottom. All that is being said is that a bottom exists and someone will always occupy it. I'm not sure why you would be mad that Revenant players say they are at the bottom. > > > > It's a game people like to play ... even if you aren't the bottom, if you say it enough times, you can convince yourself it's true AND convince yourself it's a compelling enough argument to get that changed. People get mad they aren't the 'worst' because it shatters this little world they have created for themselves that makes them think they are always going to be at the front of the line for the soup kitchen. They don't get that being first in line doesn't get your served first. > > > > I think the bottomline with the class is that it's got some flaws out of the gate that haven't been addressed and no matter how much Anet tries to reconcile that with a few skill changes, what is wrong with the class can't be addressed with those kinds of changes you see in Balancing. IMO, the problem requires as significant a change as Mesmers got with phantasm. > > Indeed. I personally don't pay as much attention when building necro because certain things work best for necro in fractals and you get abominations like:Glass cannons that are super weak and can only dps but don't have the tools to survive.I'd rather sacrifice a little dps for having tools that allow me to survive and maybe offer a bit of support to take off condis or offensive support of taking off buffs off enemies, same with my ele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetatis.5418 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class anet never introduced reaper as such. at no point. it was the players, because it was most appealing at that point - and a huge step from core dagger 11111 i thought so aswell tho. but never found any proof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class > > anet never introduced reaper as such. at no point. it was the players, because it was most appealing at that point - and a huge step from core dagger 11111 > > i thought so aswell tho. but never found any proof > Yes, just of like how some players have decided that meta DPS is what GW2 balance 'is supposed to be'. Lots of people think it, but all the evidence suggests Anet's idea of balance is something significantly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull. I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support. Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmoon.7986 Posted July 29, 2018 Author Share Posted July 29, 2018 ll sh> @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class > > anet never introduced reaper as such. at no point. it was the players, because it was most appealing at that point - and a huge step from core dagger 11111 > > i thought so aswell tho. but never found any proof > The what is it? 3/5 GS skills hit 5 targets, all skills have the highest power coefficients for GS, and do no condi damage. All shouts hit 5 targets, have power coefficients and do no condi damage. 3/5 RS skills hit 5 targets, 3/5 have high power coefficients, only 1 does condi damage which is poison for the heal reduction. These all cry for a melee power dps monster able to "wield a cleaving greatsword to harvest its foes". So why is it so weak, problems with core necro, the lack of damage multipliers. DE gain 35-45% increased damage from traits plus ferocity bonuses. Power reaper gets 5% or 25% below 50% and get an extra 10% if they have chill. The problem necro has had since the base game, all other classes get damage multipliers, while necros get damage additions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > ll sh> @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > > Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class > > > > anet never introduced reaper as such. at no point. it was the players, because it was most appealing at that point - and a huge step from core dagger 11111 > > > > i thought so aswell tho. but never found any proof > > > The what is it? 3/5 GS skills hit 5 targets, all skills have the highest power coefficients for GS, and do no condi damage. All shouts hit 5 targets, have power coefficients and do no condi damage. 3/5 RS skills hit 5 targets, 3/5 have high power coefficients, only 1 does condi damage which is poison for the heal reduction. These all cry for a melee power dps monster able to "wield a cleaving greatsword to harvest its foes". > So why is it so weak, problems with core necro, the lack of damage multipliers. DE gain 35-45% increased damage from traits plus ferocity bonuses. Power reaper gets 5% or 25% below 50% and get an extra 10% if they have chill. The problem necro has had since the base game, all other classes get damage multipliers, while necros get damage additions. > All that stuff might be true, but Anet never explicitly stated Reaper was an AOE power class so the idea that people EXPECT it to be or be developed toward that idea doesn't make much sense. Also, it doesn't set the expectation for any kind of damage level. That expectation is set by players that still think Anet is balancing to a meta DPS-focused game. They aren't. Personally, I think reaper isn't differentiated enough from Core Shroud ... so what is it? I think it's basically a trumped-up Core shroud focused on Chill effects ... In otherwords, it's not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetatis.5418 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > ll sh> @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > > > Reaper was suppose to be a aoe power class > > > > anet never introduced reaper as such. at no point. it was the players, because it was most appealing at that point - and a huge step from core dagger 11111 > > > > i thought so aswell tho. but never found any proof > > > The what is it? 3/5 GS skills hit 5 targets, all skills have the highest power coefficients for GS, and do no condi damage. All shouts hit 5 targets, have power coefficients and do no condi damage. 3/5 RS skills hit 5 targets, 3/5 have high power coefficients, only 1 does condi damage which is poison for the heal reduction. These all cry for a melee power dps monster able to "wield a cleaving greatsword to harvest its foes". > So why is it so weak, problems with core necro, the lack of damage multipliers. DE gain 35-45% increased damage from traits plus ferocity bonuses. Power reaper gets 5% or 25% below 50% and get an extra 10% if they have chill. The problem necro has had since the base game, all other classes get damage multipliers, while necros get damage additions. > look at the history of builds that were strong on reaper. until "recently", the condition aspect has been situationally stronger for an eternity. the 10% on chill didnt exist for very long. ferocity in shroud didnt exist for very long. awaken the pain is also new-ish. both condition and power have been evenly strong - what makes everybody think (thought) then, that reaper is a power spec. to be very honest, i think reaper was a mix of power and condition = makes more sense. (look at viper stats...! grieving! grieving was best dps for a short amount of time) and thinking about dhuumfire and a couple of other traits, boon corrupts and coefficients of skill, this seems !more likely!. yet nobody knows what the intention was. arenanet does not provide any information on what they want something to be in the first place. there were many players, and probably are, that like power over condition however (i am one of them, since conditions dont feel right for me in gw2. used to play dot classes in other mmos and loved them tho) whatever the intention was, none of it worked out well in terms of (benchmark) dps. even now, when reaper got shifted "more" towards power by +10% on chill, awaken the pain, new reapers onslaught, soul spiral buffs - the viper variant pulls more damage techincally. where is that "it is supposed to be power" then? just because reaper got some power buffs but a mixed variant is still slightly more dps on paper? power is again favorised in many pve situations, because bursts > conditions... thats what it is! but it has nothing to do with reaper. unfortunate for me, because reaper ~~does~~did not entirely fit that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I thought condi was still stronger? Haven't played in ages in gw.I know that when i raided before pof came out condi reaper was king of necro specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > What is a lot of people. Necro is still one of the most popular professions in this game. I see them everywhere, all the time. WvW, tons of necros. I see them in PvP quite frequently. And in open world PvE, I see them all the time. I've run into them in Fractals and dungeons. So maybe the only place you see less of them is raids. And people who play for flavor, like me, may not raid at all. My wife plays and loves her necro. She has no idea if it does more or less damage. It doesn't matter to her. It will never really matter to her. Because she's not interested in raiding or playing the hardest content in the game. How many people do you think really min/max or really look at this? Sure, they'll be the most likely people to post on forums, because they're vested in that sort of thing. My wife will never post on forums. But I have a guild of 400 people right now, and probably ten of us will ever look at forums or reddit. And there are quite a few necros in our guild. More than there are warriors or elementalists or guardians even. Why? Because it's an easy profession to pick up and play for people in the open world with minions. Tons of people go to the necro because it allows them to clear content easier. Years ago, people didn't want necros or rangers in dungeon parties....some people. And yet necros and rangers were popular back then too. I'm thinking more people are playing for flavor than efficiency over all. You're just not as likely to hear from those people here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired. My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem. In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 People tend to ignore it but no one Rezzs like a Necro ... and that might not impress people, but it IS what Necro does better than anyone else. Is that not useful? It really depends on who you play with. I still think it's a fallacy that a class needs to do something 'THE BEST' to be desirable in meta teams ... that makes no sense to me ... that certainly isn't going to solve Necro not being meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game" > > lets throw in some discussion material. His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull. > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support. > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't. > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired. > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem. > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant. > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom. However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aslakh.3072 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 @"Dadnir.5038" I'm not really a fan of your idea of changing dhuumfire in that particular way but regardless it had sounded like you were advocating for soul reaping to be a power tree, and that is the concept that would be too limited in design. @"Shadowmoon.7986" You said "Scourge was supposed to be a support class, turned into a aoe condi bombing class. I feel they can't fix the class because if they push the class in the direction they want, it will op what they created, but they are too afraid take away from what they created." This is flat out wrong and I will call out everyone who seems to think scourge is only a support spec. Lets look at scourge both mechanically and thematically. Reading the descriptions we are given scourge is supposed to "damage enemies and create shields for their allies." Some support and some damage, but then it reads "punishment skills to torment their enemies", more focus on damageing (read condition) enemies. The final line used to describe it is "wield torches to light the path to their destruction." That clearly does not sound like a pure support specialisation to me. Lets now see what scourges torch does. The first torch skill burns and torments foes, clearly a damage oriented skill. The other torch skill applies more damaging conditions, knockdowns and applies might. Still quite a damage oriented skill. Looking at traitlines scourge has one traitline that applies barrier, condition cleanses and strengthens allies with barrier and then powers up shades. Not even an entire line is dedicated to shielding allies, but then it was only described once indicating an important but minor part of the specialisation. Now the next line increases the duration of conditions and the cooldowns of what is obviously a condition damage weapon. It causes punishments, described as applying torment which is a damaging condition to also apply burning when used with the mechanic which by default also applies torment. The grandmaster of that line strengthens torment and applies more burning. The final line consists of life force gain on corrupts and/or a damageing condition, more corrupts and more gain from using corrupts. Looking at this it seems obvious that the priorities are damage > corrupts > barrier > might, with the option on specialising on any of those concepts. Looking at this please tell me how you are justifying the idea that "Scourge was supposed to be a support class, turned into a aoe condi bombing class." because it looks to me like its supposed to be primarily doing damage. So when you say it "turned into a aoe condi bombing class." I'd say well yea, it was a condition based (clearly aoe, i mean just look at the area control design they were promoting) damge proffesion with decent access to a shielding mechanic. Finally "I feel they can't fix the class because if they push the class in the direction they want, it will op what they created, but they are too afraid take away from what they created." Your idea of fixing the class would clearly be breaking it further by completely redesigning it. Whether it can be fixed without being op is a different debate and I persoanlly believe it is balancable by altering overperforming or unnecersary bloat such as overkill boon corrupt on punishments and too large an aoe on sand savant for pvp. In the end it is not the damage that is a problem, it only was when the spec was bugged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabus Stinson.1409 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game" > > > > lets throw in some discussion material. > > His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable. > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. > > > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. > > > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. > > > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. > > > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull. > > > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support. > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > > > > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't. > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired. > > > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem. > > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant. > > > > > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom. > > However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all. People basing it on DPS is because that is all Necro brings, and it brings less than most other specs. We have little useful support, team buffing, or healing. So what else is there dps. So to say people are focused on DPS and that its a mentality issue is ridiculous. of course they are focusing on it, its the one thing the class is meant to do, and it doesnt do it well enough to keep up with classes that dod that and more. 1)To play a moba you need to play more than 1 character, at any level of play that is atleast slightly competitive. This means that maybe your favorite character in Dota is underperforming, but you have plenty of others you can choose. 2) 75% was an approximation, its actually a lot closer to 90% or more. Sure you can play any class in GW2, but there are cevats to that. You will struggle to find groups. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make your own, or find nicer people. But if a player is locked out of, or has additional barriers to content because mechanically their classes ceiling is too low, thats a problem. Sure 75% of decent specs are viable, but comparitively some vastly outpeform others. Which is bad. 3) We are not back in pre HoT days where Necro is banned from Pug content, so that is progress, but why would you not want to keep making it. 4) "The idea that something has to be the best in order to be considered useful" Isnt the right statement at all. I do not want Necro to have the best DPS, or the best team support. I would like it to have competitive DPS and some team support. 5) carrying on from 4, Mesmer can boast to be the best team buffer, 100% quickness and alacrity, while also pumping out other boons like mad, but while doing this it also provides great CC, projectile deflection, and is the best tank. Warrior can provide the most unqiue buffs, provide great damage matching to classes without said buffing power, and still have room to also be one of the best tanks. My point from this is how can you think it makes sense for 2 classes to be the best at multiple things and still keep up with classes that provide none of the additional support. The only solace is that atleast druid is dont fairly right, it is the best at healing, but is the worst for dps. Which is a fair trade off. 6) As for people moving away from being optimal. that is an issue in itself. First because people want to be quick, best reward for the amount of time you spent grinding. or at the other end of the spectrum you have limited time you get to play you cant be waiting for your 7 heal spec druids to dps down a boss. Following from this, if you made all end game content accessible to any build then it would be trivialised for optimised ones. So players setting requirements for content makes sense. It is infact required. You want to do CM 99 fractal you need to kill your clone in time or everyone wipes, so to some extent the game puts a hard limit on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game" > > > > > > lets throw in some discussion material. > > > > His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable. > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > > > > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. > > > > > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > > > > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > > > > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. > > > > > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. > > > > > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. > > > > > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull. > > > > > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support. > > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > > > > > > > > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't. > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired. > > > > > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem. > > > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant. > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom. > > > > However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all. > > People basing it on DPS is because that is all Necro brings, and it brings less than most other specs. We have little useful support, team buffing, or healing. So what else is there dps. So to say people are focused on DPS and that its a mentality issue is ridiculous. of course they are focusing on it, its the one thing the class is meant to do, and it doesnt do it well enough to keep up with classes that dod that and more. > > 1)To play a moba you need to play more than 1 character, at any level of play that is atleast slightly competitive. This means that maybe your favorite character in Dota is underperforming, but you have plenty of others you can choose. > 2) 75% was an approximation, its actually a lot closer to 90% or more. Sure you can play any class in GW2, but there are cevats to that. You will struggle to find groups. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make your own, or find nicer people. But if a player is locked out of, or has additional barriers to content because mechanically their classes ceiling is too low, thats a problem. Sure 75% of decent specs are viable, but comparitively some vastly outpeform others. Which is bad. > 3) We are not back in pre HoT days where Necro is banned from Pug content, so that is progress, but why would you not want to keep making it. > 4) "The idea that something has to be the best in order to be considered useful" Isnt the right statement at all. I do not want Necro to have the best DPS, or the best team support. I would like it to have competitive DPS and some team support. > 5) carrying on from 4, Mesmer can boast to be the best team buffer, 100% quickness and alacrity, while also pumping out other boons like mad, but while doing this it also provides great CC, projectile deflection, and is the best tank. Warrior can provide the most unqiue buffs, provide great damage matching to classes without said buffing power, and still have room to also be one of the best tanks. My point from this is how can you think it makes sense for 2 classes to be the best at multiple things and still keep up with classes that provide none of the additional support. The only solace is that atleast druid is dont fairly right, it is the best at healing, but is the worst for dps. Which is a fair trade off. > 6) As for people moving away from being optimal. that is an issue in itself. First because people want to be quick, best reward for the amount of time you spent grinding. or at the other end of the spectrum you have limited time you get to play you cant be waiting for your 7 heal spec druids to dps down a boss. Following from this, if you made all end game content accessible to any build then it would be trivialised for optimised ones. So players setting requirements for content makes sense. It is infact required. You want to do CM 99 fractal you need to kill your clone in time or everyone wipes, so to some extent the game puts a hard limit on. Well, see that's the problem by saying it needs to be DPS you have automatically created a criteria that means the Necromancer is going to be bad because Necromancer will never be as good at DPS as Elementalist. Choosing to highlight DPS is a mentality issue because in other modes of play Necromancer clearly brings things to the table in other aspects such as support through boon corruption. I have also seen nothing from ANet that indicates that Necromancer was meant to do DPS. Based on how the profession was designed I really don't think ANet had being the best at DPS in mind. Thus we return to it being a player mentality issue. I have some serious doubts that when ANet balances Necromancer that they aren't doing so based on DPS output. 1. Ok, but I really wasn't talking about that. 2. Oh, yeah no I got that it was an approximation. It still doesn't change what I said though. 3. Oh yeah progress is great. And continued progress is good. I'm speaking about the doom and gloom though. The constant insistence that Necromancer is the worst of the worst to the point of actually fighting for the right to be at the bottom. 4. Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people in this thread clearly do. I'm still waiting for those folks to list what unique aspects the other professions bring to the game that makes them the best of the best and no one else can touch them in that area. There have been arguments that Necromancer is completely useless just because it underperforms in raids even though such a mindset ignores how well they do in WvW and PvP. Which is also what I feel supports my statement that part of the problem is player mindset. In PvP and WvW you can't kick Necro players and as such they can easily prove their worth. I suspect that if Necro players couldn't be kicked out of raid teams that we would see that Necromancer is stronger than people's prejudice against the profession displays. 5. I thought this wasn't about being the best? 6. Yeah, I really don't think taking it to the extreme of 7 druids helps the case that Necromancer is bad and in need of buffing. Really there is no reason to jump to an extreme on that point. However player created criteria and requirements do not equate to balance. Just because the community sets up their own expectations doesn't mean that what they create fairly judges the balance of a profession. Thus a failure to meet artificially created player standards does not mean that the profession is not properly balanced. It could very well be the case that Necromancer actually is balanced but it simply just doesn't get the job done as fast as other people want. It is unlikely that ANet is ever going to balance Necromancer based on artificially created standards. They will likely balance the profession based on what their data says the profession actually performs at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > > > > > What is a lot of people. Necro is still one of the most popular professions in this game. I see them everywhere, all the time. WvW, tons of necros. I see them in PvP quite frequently. And in open world PvE, I see them all the time. I've run into them in Fractals and dungeons. So maybe the only place you see less of them is raids. And people who play for flavor, like me, may not raid at all. > > My wife plays and loves her necro. She has no idea if it does more or less damage. It doesn't matter to her. It will never really matter to her. Because she's not interested in raiding or playing the hardest content in the game. How many people do you think really min/max or really look at this? > > Sure, they'll be the most likely people to post on forums, because they're vested in that sort of thing. My wife will never post on forums. But I have a guild of 400 people right now, and probably ten of us will ever look at forums or reddit. And there are quite a few necros in our guild. More than there are warriors or elementalists or guardians even. Why? > > Because it's an easy profession to pick up and play for people in the open world with minions. Tons of people go to the necro because it allows them to clear content easier. > > Years ago, people didn't want necros or rangers in dungeon parties....some people. And yet necros and rangers were popular back then too. I'm thinking more people are playing for flavor than efficiency over all. You're just not as likely to hear from those people here. Ok, and this is why I love statistics so much instead of a person who "sees" a lot of Necros around him/her all the time and even throws in the very anecdotal 'married to a necromancer' argument! Anyway we obviously don't have the full numbers, like only ANet has, but this is the closest we can get to: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics Here you can clearly see the Necro is on number 5 / 6!!! Just some background info, generally speaking, the Necro/Dark class normally comes just behind the bread and butter top 3 (fighter (war), mage (ele), hunter (ranger)) in pretty much every MMO. And in some darker MMO's or hack and slashes they even easily hit top 3! Why is GW2 so _dead_ set _against_ Necro??? For me, and I know a lot of other people as well (you see, I can do that as well ... it's easy, just say you know a lot of people ...), I only still like to play my Necro, because it looks incredibly cool! But I don't think it's fair to consider the look and feel of a class as a variable of the great balancing equation that ANet is using ... (It would explain a few things though, imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 I have to disagree with several arguments which have been brought up in this thread: * The support a Necro could provide doesn't matter. While I like the notion of some people here that thematically, Necro may not be intended to be a pure dps-class (and which I actually feel is true), it doesn't translate into reality. In traditional MMORPGs, Necro would be your classical offensive support - good dps with strong debuffs. The point in GW2 is the absolutely horrible balancing of support-classes though. Everything Necro could do is done better by other classes - mainly Chronomancer and Druid. Especially Ranger-spirits should by design not belong to Ranger but to Necro - at least their function should. That leaves us to limiting dps-classes to mere dps and in that regard - yes - I do think that Necro in general should be buffed. * How would I buff Necro? First and foremost, I'd give Necro a unique dps-increasing debuff (ArenaNet could just rework an existing utility into such a debuff) which will make Necro a desirable class in raids and fractals. That debuff should increase the squads/partys dps significantly, meaning several thousand dps per member, reaching up to at least 10k dps in your typical party composition (Chrono, Druid, 3 DPS) and at least 20k dps in your typical squad composition (2 Chronos, 2 Druids/Healers, 6 DPS). Thematically, this should be the job of offensive support. Then, I'd make GS-animations faster. GS just feels clunky to use due to its speed (if you're used to play korean MMORPGs in which APM is a thing, GS is a horrible experience since you'll sometimes cancel your own skills because their execution is too slow). By increasing animation-speed, Reaper as dps-class will have a natural dps-increase and speeding up animations also has the benefit of making Reaper less susceptible. In that regard, ArenaNet finally could also balance Gravedigger. While playing Reaper above 50% Boss-HP is fun, just spamming Gravedigger after 50% Boss-HP is garbage-gameplay. This has to change to also make Reaper a desirable dps-class gameplay-wise. Lastly, I'd buff Reaper-Shroud. Thematically, to use the terminology of a well-known manga/anime-series, you're supposed to be a strong Shinigami as Reaper. Entering Reaper-Shroud should be like going all "Bankai!". You shouldn't have a huge fucking scythe for nothing after all. While Soul-Spiral is really good AoE-damage, the other skills are quite lacklustre. Especially skills like Executioner's Scythe (just look at the goddamn skill-name) should hit enemies like a frigging truck. Yet, Reaper-Shroud only serves as filler. In that regard, Holosmith with Photon-Forge is actually the better Reaper, since the skills are much more desirable to use and Photon Forge also synergizes better with your general gameplay as Holosmith than Reaper, which is quite sad. * The talk about "perfect imbalance" is useless and off-topic. That video is about competitive PvP in Team-Shooters and MOBAs and focusses on counter-class-gameplay (rock, paper, scissors). It has nothing to do with the actual topic: PvE-benchmarks/viability in instanced PvE. In that regard - since Chronomancer and Druid handle every support-aspect - you have to reduce dps-classes to their dps-potential and unique support-abilities. Necro is just trash in that regard in decent groups. * Another possible way to balance Necro would be to balance Chronomancer and Druid, though that certainly is impossible at this point. ArenaNet really made of the biggest mistakes game-design-wise in the history of MMORPGs by creating these two classes. A wise game-developer never would have stacked that many roles on so few classes. Going with traditional MMORPG-design would have been more healthier for the game like: a true tank (with proper aggro-mechanics at least in fractals and raids), off-tanks with decent dps-potential which can take over tanking if the designated tank should die, a real healer, multiple off-healers with strong support-capabilities (buffs) which can take over healing if the designated healer should die, several dps-only-classes and a few offensive-support-dps-classes with strong debuffs. The way it currently is though, gameplay in GW2 is a lot more restricted than in every other MMORPG. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > This argument is old and tired. If you rely on joining LFG teams ... you let those teams decide to play how you play. > Solution: Make your own teams and advertise them open for people that want to play how THEY like on LFG. I have to disagree vehemently. GW2 simply screwed up game-design-wise and doesn't really support instanced PvE to begin with. The reason for that is that the game is - by design - too asocial and doesn't deliver a natural learning-experience through open-world- and story-content. Teaming up, getting to know people, all that stuff isn't a natural thing in GW2. It's not even really incentivized: * Boon- and Heal-sharing for people outside of your party/squad is stupid design-wise and doesn't incentivize proper group-play. * You have no real social hub, no world-chat and ArenaNet used megaserver-architecture as lazy solution for population-problems, which makes things even worse. * Hell, you don't even have a decent guild-browser and not even a decent LFG in a MMORPG which is actually still fairly young in comparison. * Then you have reward-structures that make stuff even worse. While the daily system for fractals is arguable, at least the weekly system for raids is pure garbage and leads to most people only doing raids once per week, which is a huge problem. * Then you have the stupid LI/KP-system which make it even more worse, since it mostly doesn't allow for a healthy mix of veterans and newbies, which is fundamental in healthy MMORPG-design. * Plus, to make things even more and more worse, you have the strictest gameplay-experience any MMORPG offers which leads to people not communicating for stuff that's supposed to be true Endgame-PvE-content. * The asocial game-design also leads to the rampant meta-slavery GW2s community features. In that regard: Yes, ArenaNet has to balance the game with PUGs in mind and yes, also in that regard, ArenaNet has to buff Necro to make Necro desirable in instanced PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > > > > > > > > > What is a lot of people. Necro is still one of the most popular professions in this game. I see them everywhere, all the time. WvW, tons of necros. I see them in PvP quite frequently. And in open world PvE, I see them all the time. I've run into them in Fractals and dungeons. So maybe the only place you see less of them is raids. And people who play for flavor, like me, may not raid at all. > > > > My wife plays and loves her necro. She has no idea if it does more or less damage. It doesn't matter to her. It will never really matter to her. Because she's not interested in raiding or playing the hardest content in the game. How many people do you think really min/max or really look at this? > > > > Sure, they'll be the most likely people to post on forums, because they're vested in that sort of thing. My wife will never post on forums. But I have a guild of 400 people right now, and probably ten of us will ever look at forums or reddit. And there are quite a few necros in our guild. More than there are warriors or elementalists or guardians even. Why? > > > > Because it's an easy profession to pick up and play for people in the open world with minions. Tons of people go to the necro because it allows them to clear content easier. > > > > Years ago, people didn't want necros or rangers in dungeon parties....some people. And yet necros and rangers were popular back then too. I'm thinking more people are playing for flavor than efficiency over all. You're just not as likely to hear from those people here. > > Ok, and this is why I love statistics so much instead of a person who "sees" a lot of Necros around him/her all the time and even throws in the very anecdotal 'married to a necromancer' argument! Anyway we obviously don't have the full numbers, like only ANet has, but this is the closest we can get to: > https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics > Here you can clearly see the Necro is on number 5 / 6!!! > Just some background info, generally speaking, the Necro/Dark class normally comes just behind the bread and butter top 3 (fighter (war), mage (ele), hunter (ranger)) in pretty much every MMO. And in some darker MMO's or hack and slashes they even easily hit top 3! Why is GW2 so _dead_ set _against_ Necro??? > > For me, and I know a lot of other people as well (you see, I can do that as well ... it's easy, just say you know a lot of people ...), I only still like to play my Necro, because it looks incredibly cool! But I don't think it's fair to consider the look and feel of a class as a variable of the great balancing equation that ANet is using ... (It would explain a few things though, imo). So that means of the people who are less casual, ie, people who actually put their numbers up on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, because many casuals won't, the number is 5 or 6. That means it's right in the middle not the bottom. This actually backs up what I've been saying. Here's a chart from Guild Wars 2 armory that shows the percentage of the professions: https://gw2armory.com/statistics There's a single percentage point dividing most professions. Engineer and revenant are lowest with 9. But all the other professions are sitting at 11 and 12%. Hardly an indictment of the popularity of the necro. I mean if it's truly worse and has the same 11% as mesmer and thief, I'm thinking it's not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be. Here's a reddit census that shows Necros to be quite popular as well: I spoke anecdotally because I did research as part of my living, so I hate doing it now, but you know, a simple search on gw2 profession census was all it took to back it up. I remembered polls from the past and necro has always been popular, even when it was less powerful than it is now. Sometimes, you can observe things and they can be right too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Aetatis.5418" said: > > > > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game" > > > > > > > > lets throw in some discussion material. > > > > > > His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique. > > > > > > > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis. > > > > > > > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP. > > > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view: > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids) > > > > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids) > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs) > > > > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility > > > > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg) > > > > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck) > > > > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP) > > > > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better) > > > > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke) > > > > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down) > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc > > > > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw) > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros: > > > > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge) > > > > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges > > > > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies > > > > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior) > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthpool > > > > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons: > > > > > > > > > > > > -no mobility > > > > > > > > > > > > -No blocks > > > > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges > > > > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility > > > > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor > > > > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive > > > > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds) > > > > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc > > > > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that. > > > > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i. > > > > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there. > > > > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not. > > > > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem. > > > > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs. > > > > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that . > > > > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation. > > > > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions. > > > > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro > > > > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle. > > > > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do. > > > > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :) > > > > > > > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all. > > > > > > > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull. > > > > > > > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support. > > > > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle? > > > > > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't. > > > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said: > > > > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired. > > > > > > > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem. > > > > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom. > > > > > > However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all. > > > > People basing it on DPS is because that is all Necro brings, and it brings less than most other specs. We have little useful support, team buffing, or healing. So what else is there dps. So to say people are focused on DPS and that its a mentality issue is ridiculous. of course they are focusing on it, its the one thing the class is meant to do, and it doesnt do it well enough to keep up with classes that dod that and more. > > > > 1)To play a moba you need to play more than 1 character, at any level of play that is atleast slightly competitive. This means that maybe your favorite character in Dota is underperforming, but you have plenty of others you can choose. > > 2) 75% was an approximation, its actually a lot closer to 90% or more. Sure you can play any class in GW2, but there are cevats to that. You will struggle to find groups. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make your own, or find nicer people. But if a player is locked out of, or has additional barriers to content because mechanically their classes ceiling is too low, thats a problem. Sure 75% of decent specs are viable, but comparitively some vastly outpeform others. Which is bad. > > 3) We are not back in pre HoT days where Necro is banned from Pug content, so that is progress, but why would you not want to keep making it. > > 4) "The idea that something has to be the best in order to be considered useful" Isnt the right statement at all. I do not want Necro to have the best DPS, or the best team support. I would like it to have competitive DPS and some team support. > > 5) carrying on from 4, Mesmer can boast to be the best team buffer, 100% quickness and alacrity, while also pumping out other boons like mad, but while doing this it also provides great CC, projectile deflection, and is the best tank. Warrior can provide the most unqiue buffs, provide great damage matching to classes without said buffing power, and still have room to also be one of the best tanks. My point from this is how can you think it makes sense for 2 classes to be the best at multiple things and still keep up with classes that provide none of the additional support. The only solace is that atleast druid is dont fairly right, it is the best at healing, but is the worst for dps. Which is a fair trade off. > > 6) As for people moving away from being optimal. that is an issue in itself. First because people want to be quick, best reward for the amount of time you spent grinding. or at the other end of the spectrum you have limited time you get to play you cant be waiting for your 7 heal spec druids to dps down a boss. Following from this, if you made all end game content accessible to any build then it would be trivialised for optimised ones. So players setting requirements for content makes sense. It is infact required. You want to do CM 99 fractal you need to kill your clone in time or everyone wipes, so to some extent the game puts a hard limit on. > > Well, see that's the problem by saying it needs to be DPS you have automatically created a criteria that means the Necromancer is going to be bad because Necromancer will never be as good at DPS as Elementalist. Choosing to highlight DPS is a mentality issue because in other modes of play Necromancer clearly brings things to the table in other aspects such as support through boon corruption. I have also seen nothing from ANet that indicates that Necromancer was meant to do DPS. Based on how the profession was designed I really don't think ANet had being the best at DPS in mind. Thus we return to it being a player mentality issue. I have some serious doubts that when ANet balances Necromancer that they aren't doing so based on DPS output. > > 1. Ok, but I really wasn't talking about that. > 2. Oh, yeah no I got that it was an approximation. It still doesn't change what I said though. > 3. Oh yeah progress is great. And continued progress is good. I'm speaking about the doom and gloom though. The constant insistence that Necromancer is the worst of the worst to the point of actually fighting for the right to be at the bottom. > 4. Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people in this thread clearly do. I'm still waiting for those folks to list what unique aspects the other professions bring to the game that makes them the best of the best and no one else can touch them in that area. There have been arguments that Necromancer is completely useless just because it underperforms in raids even though such a mindset ignores how well they do in WvW and PvP. Which is also what I feel supports my statement that part of the problem is player mindset. In PvP and WvW you can't kick Necro players and as such they can easily prove their worth. I suspect that if Necro players couldn't be kicked out of raid teams that we would see that Necromancer is stronger than people's prejudice against the profession displays. > 5. I thought this wasn't about being the best? > 6. Yeah, I really don't think taking it to the extreme of 7 druids helps the case that Necromancer is bad and in need of buffing. Really there is no reason to jump to an extreme on that point. However player created criteria and requirements do not equate to balance. Just because the community sets up their own expectations doesn't mean that what they create fairly judges the balance of a profession. Thus a failure to meet artificially created player standards does not mean that the profession is not properly balanced. It could very well be the case that Necromancer actually is balanced but it simply just doesn't get the job done as fast as other people want. It is unlikely that ANet is ever going to balance Necromancer based on artificially created standards. They will likely balance the profession based on what their data says the profession actually performs at. > > Thing is:either you provide enough offensive/defensive support/healing or you go dps. Other games have something similar but the balance is skewed because necros got nerfed in their support stripped and nerfed in their damage. In other games as well the top and bottom dps even if you hate wow maybe the bottom and top was balanced to be not a huge number difference.Going from 41-42k to like 28k is massive, thats 14k difference dps.I don't care what class you are the dps diffence should never be so massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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