3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Aetatis.5418" said:

> > > > > > > > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game"

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > lets throw in some discussion material.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable.

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> > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP.

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> > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthpool

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -no mobility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No blocks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that .

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it.

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> > > > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all.

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> > > > > > > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull.

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> > > > > > > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle?

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> > > > > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class.

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> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't.

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> > > > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > > > > > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired.

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> > > > > > > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem.

> > > > > > > > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant.

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> > > > > > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all.

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> > > > > > People basing it on DPS is because that is all Necro brings, and it brings less than most other specs. We have little useful support, team buffing, or healing. So what else is there dps. So to say people are focused on DPS and that its a mentality issue is ridiculous. of course they are focusing on it, its the one thing the class is meant to do, and it doesnt do it well enough to keep up with classes that dod that and more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1)To play a moba you need to play more than 1 character, at any level of play that is atleast slightly competitive. This means that maybe your favorite character in Dota is underperforming, but you have plenty of others you can choose.

> > > > > > 2) 75% was an approximation, its actually a lot closer to 90% or more. Sure you can play any class in GW2, but there are cevats to that. You will struggle to find groups. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make your own, or find nicer people. But if a player is locked out of, or has additional barriers to content because mechanically their classes ceiling is too low, thats a problem. Sure 75% of decent specs are viable, but comparitively some vastly outpeform others. Which is bad.

> > > > > > 3) We are not back in pre HoT days where Necro is banned from Pug content, so that is progress, but why would you not want to keep making it.

> > > > > > 4) "The idea that something has to be the best in order to be considered useful" Isnt the right statement at all. I do not want Necro to have the best DPS, or the best team support. I would like it to have competitive DPS and some team support.

> > > > > > 5) carrying on from 4, Mesmer can boast to be the best team buffer, 100% quickness and alacrity, while also pumping out other boons like mad, but while doing this it also provides great CC, projectile deflection, and is the best tank. Warrior can provide the most unqiue buffs, provide great damage matching to classes without said buffing power, and still have room to also be one of the best tanks. My point from this is how can you think it makes sense for 2 classes to be the best at multiple things and still keep up with classes that provide none of the additional support. The only solace is that atleast druid is dont fairly right, it is the best at healing, but is the worst for dps. Which is a fair trade off.

> > > > > > 6) As for people moving away from being optimal. that is an issue in itself. First because people want to be quick, best reward for the amount of time you spent grinding. or at the other end of the spectrum you have limited time you get to play you cant be waiting for your 7 heal spec druids to dps down a boss. Following from this, if you made all end game content accessible to any build then it would be trivialised for optimised ones. So players setting requirements for content makes sense. It is infact required. You want to do CM 99 fractal you need to kill your clone in time or everyone wipes, so to some extent the game puts a hard limit on.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, see that's the problem by saying it needs to be DPS you have automatically created a criteria that means the Necromancer is going to be bad because Necromancer will never be as good at DPS as Elementalist. Choosing to highlight DPS is a mentality issue because in other modes of play Necromancer clearly brings things to the table in other aspects such as support through boon corruption. I have also seen nothing from ANet that indicates that Necromancer was meant to do DPS. Based on how the profession was designed I really don't think ANet had being the best at DPS in mind. Thus we return to it being a player mentality issue. I have some serious doubts that when ANet balances Necromancer that they aren't doing so based on DPS output.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Ok, but I really wasn't talking about that.

> > > > > 2. Oh, yeah no I got that it was an approximation. It still doesn't change what I said though.

> > > > > 3. Oh yeah progress is great. And continued progress is good. I'm speaking about the doom and gloom though. The constant insistence that Necromancer is the worst of the worst to the point of actually fighting for the right to be at the bottom.

> > > > > 4. Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people in this thread clearly do. I'm still waiting for those folks to list what unique aspects the other professions bring to the game that makes them the best of the best and no one else can touch them in that area. There have been arguments that Necromancer is completely useless just because it underperforms in raids even though such a mindset ignores how well they do in WvW and PvP. Which is also what I feel supports my statement that part of the problem is player mindset. In PvP and WvW you can't kick Necro players and as such they can easily prove their worth. I suspect that if Necro players couldn't be kicked out of raid teams that we would see that Necromancer is stronger than people's prejudice against the profession displays.

> > > > > 5. I thought this wasn't about being the best?

> > > > > 6. Yeah, I really don't think taking it to the extreme of 7 druids helps the case that Necromancer is bad and in need of buffing. Really there is no reason to jump to an extreme on that point. However player created criteria and requirements do not equate to balance. Just because the community sets up their own expectations doesn't mean that what they create fairly judges the balance of a profession. Thus a failure to meet artificially created player standards does not mean that the profession is not properly balanced. It could very well be the case that Necromancer actually is balanced but it simply just doesn't get the job done as fast as other people want. It is unlikely that ANet is ever going to balance Necromancer based on artificially created standards. They will likely balance the profession based on what their data says the profession actually performs at.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thing is:either you provide enough offensive/defensive support/healing or you go dps.

> > > >

> > > > Other games have something similar but the balance is skewed because necros got nerfed in their support stripped and nerfed in their damage.

> > > >

> > > > In other games as well the top and bottom dps even if you hate wow maybe the bottom and top was balanced to be not a huge number difference.Going from 41-42k to like 28k is massive, thats 14k difference dps.I don't care what class you are the dps diffence should never be so massive.

> > >

> > > My point, though, is that you purposely pick the area that will make you the worst to focus on. It is unlikely that Necromancer will close the DPS gap but it is possible for them to close the gap in things like support or defensive. But the focus is purely on DPS, which is an arbitrary choice which clearly indicates that it's a player mindset issue. Necromancer provides great support in PvP and WvW and I don't think it would be that hard to extend it into Raiding. It's a lot easier than DPS.

> >

> > Ok, let me start out by saying I'm addressing the PvE endgame here and not PvP and WvW, and if we talk about balance, it's imo of paramount importance to make that distinction, because ANet has already proven they can and will balance them differently!!!:

> > The problem in the PvE endgame which happens to be by design heavily reliable on the DPS you put through (it literally skips mechanics!) is that next to the absolute lowest DPS benchmark the Necro has, it also doesn't provide enough _valuable_ support to the group! Let me go through all the classes in order of most valuable to less and see for yourself in what state the Necro is:

> > - 1) Mesmer (Chrono): probably don't need to explain, right! It's a mandatory pick, even double in raids!!! If you have been living under a rock tho: ALL boonshare, including _permanent_ Quickness AND Alacrity, which they as only ones hold the monopoly to! Next to that, they're perfect tanks (where they have several evade options denying _all_ damage), and are even not that bad in healing if you spec them a bit differently (ppl tend to forget that tho), oh, but we're not done yet ... they are also the absolute CC and area control kings with Moa, Focus 4, etc. ... If we're talking about an absolute god tier class in the PvE endgame ... this is THE one!

> > - 2) Ranger (Druid): Next to the fact they have some very good healing at their fingertips (not _the_ best tho), they have Spirits and Spotter which makes them unique and invaluable. Yeah, maybe you can get better healers, but they won't come with such important party wide buffs as the Druid can provide! Oops, forgot the superior Might botting capabilities the Druid has, providing it easily to 10 (!!!) allies.

> > - 3) Warrior (BS): A Banner Warrior (Slave/B*tch/Lackey/Whatever) provides such huge buffs through their banners, ANet can nerf Empower Allies all they like, but they will still remain the undisputed META in Raids and even Fractals ... About fractals ... with boon strip being quite important in some encounters, The Banner Spellbreaker provides a lot of CC next to boon strip (... guess which class is not needed then ... pfff, and if you even forgot to take a SPB with you: there's always the mesmer which have it in their AA chain, which the Necro doesnt even have anymore ...).

> > - 4) Revenant (Ren): provides permanent Alacrity, better healing than Druid, very good CC, and has the class unique Assassin's Presence buff in its arsenal. Actually becoming more and more META where 2 healers are needed/preferred instead of a second Druid in raids.

> > - 5) Guardian (FB): provides permanent Quickness with ease, and next to that comes with a flurry of protection and even healing based options for providing valuable support to the team. The FB can also easily provide partywide Aegis (sometimes really underestimated), which is an absolute lifesaver capable to block the largest damage packages of which no Health Pool is capable of withholding (not even that of a Necro _including_ its Death Shroud) which literally if in the right hands can skip full mechanics in quite a few situations!

> > - 6) Elementalist (Tempest): Although not META, it provides in actual numbers (by far) _the_ best healing output in the game. There's no class that comes near if it comes to sheer numbers. Although this game is not that healing oriented (look above: it's by design DPS oriented), if you want to feel secure as a party/squad, take a (capable) healing tempest! If specced the right way, you can't imagine how much CC it can also take btw (don't hold this against me, I might be wrong here, but since my last analysis, they're number 2 in CC options (just behind mesmer))!

> > - 7) Necromancer (Scourge): .... There he is: number 7 ... OUT OF 9!!! They provide barriers, which in endgame PvE is just considered a much weaker Aegis ... and because of the nature of such protection mechanics (barrier is a protection mechanic) having to know beforehand _when_ to protect, protection skills should by design be compensated as such compared to healing capabilities: which is a reactive mechanic where you can _restore_ what has already been damaged! NO ... not barriers ... they can't even go over half of someones Health Pool! Don't get me wrong, barriers are not not terrible, but due to its nature, healing will always be more valuable then barriers will ever be (at least by this design)!

> > Then the Necro has its unique class buff: Vampiric Presence, which is an absolute beautiful mechanic ... damage AND healing (lifeleech) whenever anyone in the party deals damage to mobs ... oh no ... NOT!!!! Its ICD kills this buff completely and kicks this to the bottom tier unique class buffs right next to Strength in Numbers (which is absolutely useless in the PvE endgame)!

> > Let's continue, and go through the whole spectrum: CC: moderate (not bad, but not great either); boonshare: not even moderate ... only mightbot ... but hey, even Thief is capable to do that and does it a lot better! Area control: not that bad with options like chill, weakness, blind, some pulls (pretty much all Reaper though, but hey, let's still go with it), etc. but no real PvE endgame valuable stuff, shadow and ice fields are easily overwritten (and rightfully so), and endgame bosses have innate defence against the mostly soft control options (blind, weakness, fear, chill (lol on cooldown increase)) the Necro provides.

> > Then there's the famous boon rips/corrupts ... In raids not even that valuable (major design flaw imo, ANet, are you listening!), but in (some) T4 Fractals actually quite important .... like already stated above ... Spellbreakers and Mesmers can at least be considered as good at it (if not more valuable in case of a SPB: providing heavy CC with it as well), and even being FAR more valuable to the group in other support, than the Necro will ever be capable of!

> > Brings us to the 2 best group support capabilities a Necro has to offer: Vulnerability (if you can even call it support), but hey, which class isn't ... And lastly, but ~~not~~ least: ressing ... The NECRO (_Greek: indicating Death_) is best in _saving_ ppl from the death ..... how thematic! Hell, then at least give the Necro something that when they res someone, they make them their undead(-ish) servants creating a bond with the Necromancer boosting their stats or something ... Now it's just the exact opposite of what you expect from a Necro to be! Besides the fact that it's one of the most useless perks a class could have in endgame PvE, cause it literally means you were already failing as a team in the first place ...

> > - 8) Engineer (Scrapper): I just assume they're bottom tier (in Support), because they always were. I'm afraid I just don't know anything about the Scrapper, pretty much the one specialisation I've almost never played before and have never really properly analysed either. But I wouldn't be surprised if they've already passed the Necro in its usefulness since the last buffs they've received. Need you guys to confirm though!

> > - 9) Thief (Deadeye): Last, but that's just because they have the literal thematic disadvantage ... never really heard of a highly group supportive social thief before. But hey, let me give it a _shot_ ... The support Deadeye can act as a Might and Fury bot to **10** players in a squad, I repeat: 10 players ... while also providing teamwide CC via (basilisk) venom share. Has the same if not better soft area control and CC options as the Necro with their Immobilize (not many other classes have that easy access), cripple, weakness and vulnerability and has partywide stealth to skip parts of Fractals! .... Come to think of it, it's actually probably even more useful than Necro in endgame support, I just don't want to come across as an absolute downer here though (sorry Necro community!).

> >

> > And again, I'm NOT mentioning DPS whatsoever in the upper list!!! Which undeniable **is** the most important factor in encountering the PvE endgame ... but hey at least it's not anymore the **only** factor ... (I'll give you that)

> >

> > But as a conclusion ... let me ... well, there's always ... I mean, that can't be right, right? In DPS right at the bottom, and in support not far from it ... scratch that, probably also bottom ...

> > **ArenaNet, please wake up and stop hating the Necro in PvE**

> >

>

> PvE end game for most people isn't T4 fractals and raids in my opinion. Most people don't do those activities. They have different PvE end game, like making legendary weapons, achievement point and skin hunting, collections, story achievements. So for the small percentage of people (my opinion here) who do that, you're possibly right. But Anet isn't balancing around that. If half the population did it, maybe they would.

 

Sure, I give you that endgame can be considered differently per player ... but the balance of **all** PvE content is the same everywhere, the encounter is just different. I give Fractal and Raid examples, but that's just because (as far as I know) it's considered by many people as the PvE endgame. But I can say the same about PvE open world ... the Necro would still suck at support (because that's the example I was giving). Maybe you want me to give a rundown on sustainability, something the Necro is famous at being really good at ... right? They have the biggest Health Pool! But how important is that really? Sure in low level PvE it's quite interesting to have ... you can survive a lot of low level trash mobs hits ... But Warrior has the same HP **and** the highest base Armor Rating!!! And then to think that you don't _have_ to survive a lot of hits if you nuke them (Ele (and mesmer)) before they even come close. Or they come close and you just hit them twice and poof they're gone (Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, etc.). Again, not really a big advantage for the Necro being at the bottom of the DPS list! But still, yea, they have the big HP, shroud (although imo not a defensive mechanic, but let's go with it), and life leech! But they're all quite passive defence options having to be mediocre by design when it really comes to numbers that count! To give you an example: how much damage can you avoid with a single block/aegis, or invulnerability window, or an evade/dodge, or _even_ some good mobility options to get out of the danger zone!!! Exactly: it could go up to infinite damage, as long as you know how to play these options. Mostly will take you some training time before you get there, but hey if you're doing endgame ... whatever it may be for you, you could consider yourself a practiced "soldier", right? ... Ow, and almost forgot: all those real valuable sustain options (blocks/invulns/evades/etc.) ... guess which class has the very least options to it .... You guessed right!

The Necro is by many people (this is a guess, btw, not a real statistic) considered the class with training wheels in the PvE universe (actually, I don't think so, cause I got actual experience in playing all classes, but many other people do think so), just as the Warrior is ... except the warrior can take them off!

[Aetatis.5418]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

 

> Ok, let me start out by saying I'm addressing the PvE endgame here and not PvP and WvW, and if we talk about balance, it's imo of paramount importance to make that distinction, because ANet has already proven they can and will balance them differently!!!:

> The problem in the PvE endgame which happens to be by design heavily reliable on the DPS you put through (it literally skips mechanics!) is that next to the absolute lowest DPS benchmark the Necro has, it also doesn't provide enough _valuable_ support to the group! Let me go through all the classes in order of most valuable to less and see for yourself in what state the Necro is:

> - 1) Mesmer (Chrono): probably don't need to explain, right! It's a mandatory pick, even double in raids!!! If you have been living under a rock tho: ALL boonshare, including _permanent_ Quickness AND Alacrity, which they as only ones hold the monopoly to! Next to that, they're perfect tanks (where they have several evade options denying _all_ damage), and are even not that bad in healing if you spec them a bit differently (ppl tend to forget that tho), oh, but we're not done yet ... they are also the absolute CC and area control kings with Moa, Focus 4, etc. ... If we're talking about an absolute god tier class in the PvE endgame ... this is THE one!

> - 2) Ranger (Druid): Next to the fact they have some very good healing at their fingertips (not _the_ best tho), they have Spirits and Spotter which makes them unique and invaluable. Yeah, maybe you can get better healers, but they won't come with such important party wide buffs as the Druid can provide! Oops, forgot the superior Might botting capabilities the Druid has, providing it easily to 10 (!!!) allies.

> - 3) Warrior (BS): A Banner Warrior (Slave/B*tch/Lackey/Whatever) provides such huge buffs through their banners, ANet can nerf Empower Allies all they like, but they will still remain the undisputed META in Raids and even Fractals ... About fractals ... with boon strip being quite important in some encounters, The Banner Spellbreaker provides a lot of CC next to boon strip (... guess which class is not needed then ... pfff, and if you even forgot to take a SPB with you: there's always the mesmer which have it in their AA chain, which the Necro doesnt even have anymore ...).

> - 4) Revenant (Ren): provides permanent Alacrity, better healing than Druid, very good CC, and has the class unique Assassin's Presence buff in its arsenal. Actually becoming more and more META where 2 healers are needed/preferred instead of a second Druid in raids.

> - 5) Guardian (FB): provides permanent Quickness with ease, and next to that comes with a flurry of protection and even healing based options for providing valuable support to the team. The FB can also easily provide partywide Aegis (sometimes really underestimated), which is an absolute lifesaver capable to block the largest damage packages of which no Health Pool is capable of withholding (not even that of a Necro _including_ its Death Shroud) which literally if in the right hands can skip full mechanics in quite a few situations!

> - 6) Elementalist (Tempest): Although not META, it provides in actual numbers (by far) _the_ best healing output in the game. There's no class that comes near if it comes to sheer numbers. Although this game is not that healing oriented (look above: it's by design DPS oriented), if you want to feel secure as a party/squad, take a (capable) healing tempest! If specced the right way, you can't imagine how much CC it can also take btw (don't hold this against me, I might be wrong here, but since my last analysis, they're number 2 in CC options (just behind mesmer))!

> - 7) Necromancer (Scourge): .... There he is: number 7 ... OUT OF 9!!! They provide barriers, which in endgame PvE is just considered a much weaker Aegis ... and because of the nature of such protection mechanics (barrier is a protection mechanic) having to know beforehand _when_ to protect, protection skills should by design be compensated as such compared to healing capabilities: which is a reactive mechanic where you can _restore_ what has already been damaged! NO ... not barriers ... they can't even go over half of someones Health Pool! Don't get me wrong, barriers are not not terrible, but due to its nature, healing will always be more valuable then barriers will ever be (at least by this design)!

> Then the Necro has its unique class buff: Vampiric Presence, which is an absolute beautiful mechanic ... damage AND healing (lifeleech) whenever anyone in the party deals damage to mobs ... oh no ... NOT!!!! Its ICD kills this buff completely and kicks this to the bottom tier unique class buffs right next to Strength in Numbers (which is absolutely useless in the PvE endgame)!

> Let's continue, and go through the whole spectrum: CC: moderate (not bad, but not great either); boonshare: not even moderate ... only mightbot ... but hey, even Thief is capable to do that and does it a lot better! Area control: not that bad with options like chill, weakness, blind, some pulls (pretty much all Reaper though, but hey, let's still go with it), etc. but no real PvE endgame valuable stuff, shadow and ice fields are easily overwritten (and rightfully so), and endgame bosses have innate defence against the mostly soft control options (blind, weakness, fear, chill (lol on cooldown increase)) the Necro provides.

> Then there's the famous boon rips/corrupts ... In raids not even that valuable (major design flaw imo, ANet, are you listening!), but in (some) T4 Fractals actually quite important .... like already stated above ... Spellbreakers and Mesmers can at least be considered as good at it (if not more valuable in case of a SPB: providing heavy CC with it as well), and even being FAR more valuable to the group in other support, than the Necro will ever be capable of!

> Brings us to the 2 best group support capabilities a Necro has to offer: Vulnerability (if you can even call it support), but hey, which class isn't ... And lastly, but ~~not~~ least: ressing ... The NECRO (_Greek: indicating Death_) is best in _saving_ ppl from the death ..... how thematic! Hell, then at least give the Necro something that when they res someone, they make them their undead(-ish) servants creating a bond with the Necromancer boosting their stats or something ... Now it's just the exact opposite of what you expect from a Necro to be! Besides the fact that it's one of the most useless perks a class could have in endgame PvE, cause it literally means you were already failing as a team in the first place ...

> - 8) Engineer (Scrapper): I just assume they're bottom tier (in Support), because they always were. I'm afraid I just don't know anything about the Scrapper, pretty much the one specialisation I've almost never played before and have never really properly analysed either. But I wouldn't be surprised if they've already passed the Necro in its usefulness since the last buffs they've received. Need you guys to confirm though!

> - 9) Thief (Deadeye): Last, but that's just because they have the literal thematic disadvantage ... never really heard of a highly group supportive social thief before. But hey, let me give it a _shot_ ... The support Deadeye can act as a Might and Fury bot to **10** players in a squad, I repeat: 10 players ... while also providing teamwide CC via (basilisk) venom share. Has the same if not better soft area control and CC options as the Necro with their Immobilize (not many other classes have that easy access), cripple, weakness and vulnerability and has partywide stealth to skip parts of Fractals! .... Come to think of it, it's actually probably even more useful than Necro in endgame support, I just don't want to come across as an absolute downer here though (sorry Necro community!).

>

> And again, I'm NOT mentioning DPS whatsoever in the upper list!!! Which undeniable **is** the most important factor in encountering the PvE endgame ... but hey at least it's not anymore the **only** factor ... (I'll give you that)

>

> But as a conclusion ... let me ... well, there's always ... I mean, that can't be right, right? In DPS right at the bottom, and in support not far from it ... scratch that, probably also bottom ...

> **ArenaNet, please wake up and stop hating the Necro in PvE**

>

 

 

with the latest patches engineers have healing like a tempest (even the range), the same boons as tempest (regen, fury, vigor, some prot, some might +30% quickness uptime for 5ppl). and as a scrapper they are more durable than the tempest (hammer and reflects) and have self quickness 100% uptime, as long as they get "some" extra might stacks (5-10).

pretty solid. not completely outstanding.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> But it doesn't have to be that way. That set up is a player choice. People could choose to do it differently. If they don't that is not on ANet. Again you are picking an area to focus on wherein Necromancer will always be bad as opposed to focusing in on areas in which Necromancer could improve.

 

It's not. It's game-design. People can not choose to do it differently, simply because other support-classes - namely Chrono and Druid - are worlds (!!!) better than Necro could ever be. It's mere logic.

 

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> In PVP gamemodes, Boon Corruption is a huge deal. In PVE, it's nothing. That's really the crux of the issue surrounding Necromancer.

 

The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

 

 

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

>

> The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

>

>

 

Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

[jbrother.1340]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> >

> >

>

> Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

 

I really like your analogy but I think it is more like a shovel without a handle. You can kind of make it work but not as well as all the shovels with a handle... seems like a lot of people are on both sides of the topic and ANET has very little to say about it and the stuff they do doesn't seem to be a scoop of dirt in the right way. I think they are also using a handle-less shovel but more so in their "business and design" processes.

 

Feel free to lambaste me I love it on this forum.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"jbrother.1340" said:

>

> I really like your analogy but I think it is more like a shovel without a handle. You can kind of make it work but not as well as all the shovels with a handle... seems like a lot of people are on both sides of the topic and ANET has very little to say about it and the stuff they do doesn't seem to be a scoop of dirt in the right way. I think they are also using a handle-less shovel but more so in their "business and design" processes.

>

> Feel free to lambaste me I love it on this forum.

 

My thought was more supposed to be a reference to screws vs nails and how it's a different approach to similar results. Now the balance devs, they are most definitely using a shovel with no handle.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> >

> > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> >

> >

>

> Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

 

Boon-Corruption could only hold Scourge back following your argumentation. What about Core-Necro or Reaper?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > >

> > > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

>

> Boon-Corruption could only hold Scourge back following your argumentation. What about Core-Necro or Reaper?

 

Most of the boon corrupt on scrouge comes from core necro: path of corruption, weapon skills, well of corruption/corrupt boon, and shroud procs from spiteful spirit and or weakening shroud (granted the later 2 requires you to be in melee range). Punishment skills play only a minor role and are mostly uses for defense rather than boon strip (stunbreak+stab on trail of anguish, barrier on sand flare). Additionally, poc is better on reaper and core since it corrupts 2 boons vs scourge's 1, especially on reaper since death's charge hits more than 1 target (though given its buggy nature and large tell, coupled with the shorter shroud up-time due to decay, one could argue dark path is better).

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > >

> > > > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

> >

> > Boon-Corruption could only hold Scourge back following your argumentation. What about Core-Necro or Reaper?

>

> Most of the boon corrupt on scrouge comes from core necro: path of corruption, weapon skills, well of corruption/corrupt boon, and shroud procs from spiteful spirit and or weakening shroud (granted the later 2 requires you to be in melee range). Punishment skills play only a minor role and are mostly uses for defense rather than boon strip (stunbreak+stab on trail of anguish, barrier on sand flare). Additionally, poc is better on reaper and core since it corrupts 2 boons vs scourge's 1, especially on reaper since death's charge hits more than 1 target (though given its buggy nature and large tell, coupled with the shorter shroud up-time due to decay, one could argue dark path is better).

 

Still kinda leaves Power-Reaper though? :p

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Considering this is a thread about the PvE balancing of Necromancer, I'd rather not tangent into the pvp talk. I was merely pointing out the reality of what is holding back Necromancer. It does technically have unique tools to the class, but those tools are just not desirable to pve. 8 out of 9 classes can bring some sort of use to raids. Necromancer is just poor at everything in pve because anet equipped it with a screwdriver while everyone else has a hammer.

> > >

> > > Boon-Corruption could only hold Scourge back following your argumentation. What about Core-Necro or Reaper?

> >

> > Most of the boon corrupt on scrouge comes from core necro: path of corruption, weapon skills, well of corruption/corrupt boon, and shroud procs from spiteful spirit and or weakening shroud (granted the later 2 requires you to be in melee range). Punishment skills play only a minor role and are mostly uses for defense rather than boon strip (stunbreak+stab on trail of anguish, barrier on sand flare). Additionally, poc is better on reaper and core since it corrupts 2 boons vs scourge's 1, especially on reaper since death's charge hits more than 1 target (though given its buggy nature and large tell, coupled with the shorter shroud up-time due to decay, one could argue dark path is better).

>

> Still kinda leaves Power-Reaper though? :p

 

it's a package deal

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Thats a bad excuse for letting things get to this point vayne.A lot of folks do raid and t4 fractals.All this does is make it look like anet sides with folks who hate on necros.

 

Hold On ... Vayne's PoV makes LOTS of sense. It's not a bad excuse, it's a logical approach to serving the majority (let's assume that for the moment) of their PVE customer base.

 

IF the majority of people are not T4/Raids ... then why would Anet even consider how the class skills and relative balance affect those aspects of the game, ESPECIALLY if they are not balancing the game by player-driven Meta standards and they haven't designed the game where it's necessary for all classes to perform equivalently in the first place? I can't think of a **more** logical approach given that scenario to what Anet is doing now.

 

Provide a reasonable level of service to less significant parts of the game, focus on the parts that most of your customers are partaking in. That's a sound business approach right there.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > But it doesn't have to be that way. That set up is a player choice. People could choose to do it differently. If they don't that is not on ANet. Again you are picking an area to focus on wherein Necromancer will always be bad as opposed to focusing in on areas in which Necromancer could improve.

>

> It's not. It's game-design. People can not choose to do it differently, simply because other support-classes - namely Chrono and Druid - are worlds (!!!) better than Necro could ever be. It's mere logic.

 

No, that's not true. It's ONLY true if ALL your players are choosing classes based on performance. We know that's not the case because clearly, we wouldn't have these threads if it was. It's why Anet designed the game the way they did; you don't need optimal comps to succeed ... so you CAN play necros and win. it's a player-driven necessity, not a game design one.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Thats a bad excuse for letting things get to this point vayne.A lot of folks do raid and t4 fractals.All this does is make it look like anet sides with folks who hate on necros.

>

> Hold On ... Vayne's PoV makes LOTS of sense. It's not a bad excuse, it's a logical approach to serving the majority (let's assume that for the moment) of their PVE customer base.

>

> IF the majority of people are not T4/Raids ... then why would Anet even consider how the class skills and relative balance affect those aspects of the game, ESPECIALLY if they are not balancing the game by player-driven Meta standards and they haven't designed the game where it's necessary for all classes to perform equivalently in the first place? I can't think of a **more** logical approach given that scenario to what Anet is doing now.

>

> Provide a reasonable level of service to less significant parts of the game, focus on the parts that most of your customers are partaking in. That's a sound business approach right there.

>

>

 

ArenaNets behaviour wouldn't make any sense using that approach too. By that standard, classes like Ele would need some huge survivability-buffs.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > Thats a bad excuse for letting things get to this point vayne.A lot of folks do raid and t4 fractals.All this does is make it look like anet sides with folks who hate on necros.

> >

> > Hold On ... Vayne's PoV makes LOTS of sense. It's not a bad excuse, it's a logical approach to serving the majority (let's assume that for the moment) of their PVE customer base.

> >

> > IF the majority of people are not T4/Raids ... then why would Anet even consider how the class skills and relative balance affect those aspects of the game, ESPECIALLY if they are not balancing the game by player-driven Meta standards and they haven't designed the game where it's necessary for all classes to perform equivalently in the first place? I can't think of a **more** logical approach given that scenario to what Anet is doing now.

> >

> > Provide a reasonable level of service to less significant parts of the game, focus on the parts that most of your customers are partaking in. That's a sound business approach right there.

> >

> >

>

> ArenaNets behaviour wouldn't make any sense using that approach too. By that standard, classes like Ele would need some huge survivability-buffs.

 

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying ... Vayne is saying that Anet caters to their most significant group of customers ... I don't see the 'standard' there that would result in Ele's getting survivability buffs.

[Taqe.1342]

I see other fellow necromancers share same pve endgame balance concerns that I have. I just hope that one day I will see a patch and necromancers will have something to show of to the other professions. I don't even want them to be in the middle of dps charts, hell they can be at the bottom of dps, but god damn it anet give them something that other professions will go like "hey guys we need necro" :/

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Aetatis.5418" said:

> > > > > > > > > "balance" ... a "perfectly balanced game"

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > lets throw in some discussion material.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > His discussion of perfect imbalance is very similar to my comments about it not being possible to achieve a perfect balance thus you work towards a level of imbalance that people feel is acceptable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > So what do the other professions do that is unique to just them?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Aside from that I'm not sure ANet is 100% at fault here. I do not think they will ever balance a profession based on benchmark tests. They are really an incomplete look at the overall balance picture. I think the mindset of the players needs to be accounted for. I think it's clear that the playerbase is making the choice to not include Necromancers and if the only way to get a seat at the table is to be unique in a way that only you are unique at then there really isn't much that ANet can do at this time to fix that problem. Perhaps in another expansion when they bring out a new Elite that possibles offers something new for Necro players to be good at but right now I think Necromancer is stuck with the tools that it has and increases to DPS likely won't solve that problem as it is highly unlikely that it would be increased to a level that makes them unique.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If being unique IS necessary, the only area I can see that happening is for the downed state and rezzing. Not much to work with there since no one plays to be downed, but it's not out of the question that Anet modify some current content to make that happen. I'm still not convinced a class needs a unique, strong skill to come to the table ... I would take a class that does it all at 90% before I would take a class that does one thing at 100%. I think the 'unique=meta' argument is a illogical hypothesis.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Well, my question is an honest question. While I may think that being unique is a requirement or shouldn't be a requirement since the people who feel that Necromancer sucks feel it is I want to understand what they see as unique from the other 8 professions that make those professions better than Necromancer. I personally don't think that there are really all that many things to be uniquely different at. So if the problem is that they suck because they don't have enough DPS and they aren't unique then what do the other 8 bring to the table that Necromancer can't and that no one else can replace either. Afterall, there is very little chance if ever that anyone is going to dethrone Elementalist as top DSP.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"jbrother.1340" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested that people think that balancing has anything at all to do with benchmarks. The logic of this is mind boggling.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has. At least for pve. If you can't bring anything to the group. No buffs, no dmg, not the ability to be a real good tank on your own, you are useless to the group.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks are a community way of saying that in perfect conditions this particular profession can achieve this much damage. It says nothing about stuff like survivability.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The percentage of the game's population that use or know about those benchmarks is probably pretty small, as is the percentage of the game that raids. So if 15% of the game's population raid, and 12% of that population are necros, this affects a pretty small group of people by and large. The game isn't going to be balanced around that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you point out. Open world players wouldn't mind, if necro is viable in raids and does therefore more DPS. They wouldn't even notice it, if necro did more dmg. But the players that do actually care are not allowed to raid, because of the majority of the people that don't even care?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know in other formats of the game, besides raiding, the necro seems to be fairly popular, so maybe the benchmark isn't the be all end all of balancing, and probably isn't much considered.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devs are not standing in front of a practice dummy perfecting their rotations, and nor is probably 90% of the game's population. The balance isn't done for one specific demographic, no matter how loud that demographic is.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure wvw and PvP needs another balance than pve, that's why anet should skillsplit more than what they actually do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so let's flip this script, because you're not really getting what I'm saying.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that every profession did the same damage. Everyone has a benchmark that's identical. Then there is no trade off to taking the most survivable character and that character becomes the first choice of people who care about efficiency over say flavor. People take the necro now, often, because it's easy to play, survive, solo the open world and farm. The trade off is it doesn't kill as fast as other classes, but people are okay with that because they don't die. It's the trade off of the class.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they wouldn't care if it's the most powerful but that doesn't mean the game as a whole wouldn't suffer. There are plenty of necros running around farming the open world now. Once you triple it, the game changes profoundly. People wouldn't want to play other professions. They'd complain I don't want to play a necro but it's better in every way. That's not the way the game works.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're making the argument that PvE'ers wouldn't care if the necro did more damage and retained the same survivability. Raiders wouldn't care. Other -people would likely care. Anet would certainly care. Regardless of that I'd care. Every profession has to have basic strengths and weaknesses. The necro has a lot of strengths. It's weakness is killing stuff slower.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really wanna argue about necro strength and weaknesses?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pve-view:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Lacks DPS (for raids)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Only has sustain with minions (irrelevant for raids)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can't get healed while in shroud (ds and rs)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No real mobility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No defense (other than a little bit of barrier and shroud which you also need to do dmg)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Weak to cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -scalings are bad(esp the ones that scale with healpower suck)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -offers no boon support or unique buff (yes i don't count VP)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -delay on class mechanic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Can corrupt boons (well other classes do that way better)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -can give small barriers to allies (well 2k is just a joke)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -the fastest rezzer in the game (well in good groups irrelevant because they shouldn't go down)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthy amount of cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -can remove conditions from allies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's go for PvP/wvw-view (mainly wvw)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pros:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -good dmg dealer, not optimal but okay (high burst potential as reaper or as scourge)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -barriers (even without healpower they stack good if you stack scourges

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - can remove conditions from allies

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - corrupts (main boon remove is still warrior)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -healthpool

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -ae dmg

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cons:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -no mobility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -No blocks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -no evades other than the two dodges

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - no invincibility

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - -low amount of armor due to cloth armor

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - highly dependant on support from other in order to survive

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - can't get healed in shroud (rs/ds)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Long casttimes on most of the skills

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to long range attacks

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - weak to cc

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - delay on class mechanic

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do this list for other classes and you will see, that they have way less weaknesses than necro

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In raids necro isn't much more tanky than all the other classes, due to a lot of mechanix that do %dmg or even oneshot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You simply don't get it. Probably half the population of this game doesn't raid, or do dungeons or fractals or any group content at all, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. They're not judging this based on your personal theory on what's important in a game. I'm in the open world all the time pretty much and I see necros pretty much everywhere. Are you telling that that necros aren't a thing in WvW, because I can assure you they are. They have a strong role in WvW, in fact. Are you saying you don't see necros in PvP, because I do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not playing that kitten gamemode called spvp, that only kids play. But aside that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said necro is bad in wvw. Right now it does get outclassed by other classes, but it's not bad.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for pve i assume u don't get it not i.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if it's only 5% of the people playing raids. Necro should be an option there.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But guess what. It's not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if you don't care and all the other people playing open world would also not care if necro would do like 3-5k more DPS on that golem.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of those people wouldn't even notice that necro suddenly does more dmg with the optimum buffs.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm speaking of a buff only for pve. You know, the thing they introduced called skill split.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is with all the supposed this class can't do anything, it's probably one of the most popular professions. It obviously has to have something, like you know, maybe a second health bar that you can run to to keep yourself alive? Or a bunch of minions to take some aggro off of you. All the things you list change nothing I've said. Not one single thing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Skill split again. And are you really arguing with that .

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second health at is kitten argument, same as minions. Second health at yes, but necro has no other ways of dmg mitigation.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And i really think they should patch out minions.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The big reason: remove afk farm from necro

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second reason: remove afk brain-dead Playstyle.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it should make a video where i only summon minions to play through the story. I think that might work. And i can even go afk while playing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you think necros aren't over-represented in the population as a whole, I'm not sure what you're arguing. Not every profession is going to be great at everything and necros aren't great at raiding. But they are good for farming, solo, PvP and WvW. Dropping your marks on a bridge, or against a wall to get the guys behind the door and keep them away...it's a thing you know.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just like some months ago there was a cake diagram. That showed which professions are played the most. If i remember correctly guard was number 1 and ranger number 2

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your logical reasoning is belied by the number of necros in every single area of the game, except perhaps raids. Making them also more powerful isn't going to make the rest of the game better.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not speaking about numbers in gamemodes. Or maybe yes i do.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zero necros in raids is kitten.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's the whole point. Making them more powerful in pve only.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can raid. They simply aren't going to balance the entire class around benchmarks, period full stop and it's ridiculous to expect them too. Not unless they balance raid stuff separately from everything else in the game, which is unlikely to happen.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. You're a necro, you think you can't raid and the community backs you up on it, even though some necros do manage to raid. If you're looking for the most efficient run, and that's all you want, it's not acceptable to you. You guys don't exist in enough numbers, in my opinion, to make changed to balance based on your needs. It's just a business decision at the end of the day.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > are you even trying to create a cogent argument and this is all you came up with? Or do you actually think this logic is logical? One could say exactly the same of any class and regardless of the mathematical reality if the community on whole will not take a certain class it sort of destroys your argument. this game is not just driven by stats and class it is largely driven by the attitudes of those playing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not a skill issue either it is an issue of Anet learning to appropriately balance the game they have created around their own motto's for said game.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > you are actually making an argument for ANET to do something about it here.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > That's a complete valid argument ... especially considering he's making reasonable arguments against people making sensational statements. The fault in your statement is that you are assuming Anet is still 'learning to appropriately balance the game'. I guess it never occurred to you they aren't even trying to do that. It's beyond your consideration that the range in DPS benchmarks is reasonable to them and when it isn't, we know they do something about it. So ... in short, what we have isn't actually too far off from where Anet probably wants it.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Necros can and do raid, and any idea that there is a GAME limitation that prevents them from doing so is ridiculous. It's not a function of their DPS benchmark. It's a function of who people play with.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Try again your are completely misreading what I am saying. You are actually in agreement with me and read this backwards... we actually both feel the same about this :)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > it is indeed a function of people, the issue on ANETS end is there inability to create a more stable balance in this game in general. Which so many years later should not be so problematic each time they issue a balance patch. Small moves.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Actually, game balance is an extremely problematic thing. The more factions you have the harder it becomes to balance. Even something as small as 9 is terribly difficult. I have not really played very many games where perfect balance was achieved. This includes video games, table top rpgs, and even CCG/LCG/Minis. Thus ANet not having better balance is not a unique problem that plagues them but a problem that seems to arise in any activity of this nature. So while you think it should not be problematic the greater bulk of gaming life across the board seems to indicate otherwise.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It's the leading reason why there is always a bottom that someone is always going to occupy. It is also a strong reason why a single group remains stuck at the bottom once they've hit it, it is easier to fall from grace than it is to rise from the ashes. Personally, I've found the games that simple just say they don't care about balance issues to be more fun as they are actually open and honest about it all.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The problem is the difference between top and bottom a minor difference in damage from top to bottom is one thing but if its a huge number then it becomes a big deal.its like the difference between falling from a small ledge and jumping off the empire state building.Also:What you can bring to the team is also a big deal.If you cannot offer much to the group at all that others can do better, then its bad.I don't think necros should necessarily dominate dps, but at the very least offer something in a good enough quantity to be desired, like buffs and stuff.In other MMOs like everquest, there are similar issues:Rogues for instance do less dps than other melees and offer little to no stuff to compensate.Rogues feel like they should do more dmg because they offer no support, but even then i think other classes would be taken over rogues unless rogues were overpowered, unlike monks who offer ability to tank and pull.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think the same thing applies to necromancers in guild wars 2:The solution is to buff their shield thingies and buffs so that at the very least they got something of value of support.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also i think i understand what obtenna is on about:asthetics and playstyle?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A lot do play for the lets call it:flavor but a lot of people play whatever is the strongest, even if that isn the wrong way in my opinion to approach a class.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes but being able to offer enough so that a group wants to bring a Necromancer along is really subjective. Based on how this conversation has developed mostly into a discussion about DPS it is kinda sorta clear that being good enough to take on a team is really based on the whims of the players, who are obsessed with DPS output. So to a certain extent while ANet may need to offer buffs the players also need to broaden what they consider acceptable. Since Necromancer is not 100% despised across the board in other modes of the game it is clear that the issue may not 100% be about ANet needing to buff up Necromancer some. Sure they could give it some more buffs but that assumes that the rest of the gaming enviroment remains static which it won't.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Barnabus Stinson.1409" said:

> > > > > > > > > On the Point of perfect imbalance: Looking at LoL and Dota as they do in the video, yes there is imbalance in those games, but 75%+ of characters are played at all levels. When you have that many charcters thats a pretty impressive. This is because the overall usefulness of the characters is balanced, sure a support can hit like a wet noodle but it does provide something desired.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My issue with Necro in its current state, it provides nothing that another class cant do better. You want survivability, Warrior has HP, Regen, Stab and counters/ blocks for days, you want damage, warrior wins there too, you want buffing your team and valueable group support. Oh wait again warrior has got necro beat. Mechanically Warrior is a far better class, it can do more, and do it more competantly. And thats a problem.

> > > > > > > > > In a purely objective lense Warrior is better than necro at near everything. Ranger and Mesmer can also be far better at each of these but is atleast a little more spec dependant.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I wouldn't say Warrior is better than Necromancer at everything since there are modes of play where Necromancer is clearly better than Warrior. Also, in regards to that 75% of characters at all levels in Dota and LoL, I'm pretty sure those folks who are in the 25% category would ignore the way in which those games are fairly balanced in the same fashion that Necromancer players do. I'm pretty sure GW2 reaches that 75% mark too. So if Dota and LoL is considered balanced I would likewise say that Guild Wars 2 falls into that category. Unless Necromancer players are going to back off the idea that they are the worst profession and the only ones at the bottom.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > However, I agree with Obtena, the idea that something has to be the best in order for it to be considered useful is what really holds Necromancer back more so than mechanics do. I'm willing to bet that even professions not deemed as the best would still be viable in raids (since that seems to be the thing people are focusing on in order to maintain the idea that Necromancer is the worst profession in the game) would work very well in raids if people moved away from the idea that you have to take the best of the best or not at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People basing it on DPS is because that is all Necro brings, and it brings less than most other specs. We have little useful support, team buffing, or healing. So what else is there dps. So to say people are focused on DPS and that its a mentality issue is ridiculous. of course they are focusing on it, its the one thing the class is meant to do, and it doesnt do it well enough to keep up with classes that dod that and more.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1)To play a moba you need to play more than 1 character, at any level of play that is atleast slightly competitive. This means that maybe your favorite character in Dota is underperforming, but you have plenty of others you can choose.

> > > > > > > 2) 75% was an approximation, its actually a lot closer to 90% or more. Sure you can play any class in GW2, but there are cevats to that. You will struggle to find groups. And we can go down the rabbit hole of make your own, or find nicer people. But if a player is locked out of, or has additional barriers to content because mechanically their classes ceiling is too low, thats a problem. Sure 75% of decent specs are viable, but comparitively some vastly outpeform others. Which is bad.

> > > > > > > 3) We are not back in pre HoT days where Necro is banned from Pug content, so that is progress, but why would you not want to keep making it.

> > > > > > > 4) "The idea that something has to be the best in order to be considered useful" Isnt the right statement at all. I do not want Necro to have the best DPS, or the best team support. I would like it to have competitive DPS and some team support.

> > > > > > > 5) carrying on from 4, Mesmer can boast to be the best team buffer, 100% quickness and alacrity, while also pumping out other boons like mad, but while doing this it also provides great CC, projectile deflection, and is the best tank. Warrior can provide the most unqiue buffs, provide great damage matching to classes without said buffing power, and still have room to also be one of the best tanks. My point from this is how can you think it makes sense for 2 classes to be the best at multiple things and still keep up with classes that provide none of the additional support. The only solace is that atleast druid is dont fairly right, it is the best at healing, but is the worst for dps. Which is a fair trade off.

> > > > > > > 6) As for people moving away from being optimal. that is an issue in itself. First because people want to be quick, best reward for the amount of time you spent grinding. or at the other end of the spectrum you have limited time you get to play you cant be waiting for your 7 heal spec druids to dps down a boss. Following from this, if you made all end game content accessible to any build then it would be trivialised for optimised ones. So players setting requirements for content makes sense. It is infact required. You want to do CM 99 fractal you need to kill your clone in time or everyone wipes, so to some extent the game puts a hard limit on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well, see that's the problem by saying it needs to be DPS you have automatically created a criteria that means the Necromancer is going to be bad because Necromancer will never be as good at DPS as Elementalist. Choosing to highlight DPS is a mentality issue because in other modes of play Necromancer clearly brings things to the table in other aspects such as support through boon corruption. I have also seen nothing from ANet that indicates that Necromancer was meant to do DPS. Based on how the profession was designed I really don't think ANet had being the best at DPS in mind. Thus we return to it being a player mentality issue. I have some serious doubts that when ANet balances Necromancer that they aren't doing so based on DPS output.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Ok, but I really wasn't talking about that.

> > > > > > 2. Oh, yeah no I got that it was an approximation. It still doesn't change what I said though.

> > > > > > 3. Oh yeah progress is great. And continued progress is good. I'm speaking about the doom and gloom though. The constant insistence that Necromancer is the worst of the worst to the point of actually fighting for the right to be at the bottom.

> > > > > > 4. Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people in this thread clearly do. I'm still waiting for those folks to list what unique aspects the other professions bring to the game that makes them the best of the best and no one else can touch them in that area. There have been arguments that Necromancer is completely useless just because it underperforms in raids even though such a mindset ignores how well they do in WvW and PvP. Which is also what I feel supports my statement that part of the problem is player mindset. In PvP and WvW you can't kick Necro players and as such they can easily prove their worth. I suspect that if Necro players couldn't be kicked out of raid teams that we would see that Necromancer is stronger than people's prejudice against the profession displays.

> > > > > > 5. I thought this wasn't about being the best?

> > > > > > 6. Yeah, I really don't think taking it to the extreme of 7 druids helps the case that Necromancer is bad and in need of buffing. Really there is no reason to jump to an extreme on that point. However player created criteria and requirements do not equate to balance. Just because the community sets up their own expectations doesn't mean that what they create fairly judges the balance of a profession. Thus a failure to meet artificially created player standards does not mean that the profession is not properly balanced. It could very well be the case that Necromancer actually is balanced but it simply just doesn't get the job done as fast as other people want. It is unlikely that ANet is ever going to balance Necromancer based on artificially created standards. They will likely balance the profession based on what their data says the profession actually performs at.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thing is:either you provide enough offensive/defensive support/healing or you go dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Other games have something similar but the balance is skewed because necros got nerfed in their support stripped and nerfed in their damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > In other games as well the top and bottom dps even if you hate wow maybe the bottom and top was balanced to be not a huge number difference.Going from 41-42k to like 28k is massive, thats 14k difference dps.I don't care what class you are the dps diffence should never be so massive.

> > > >

> > > > My point, though, is that you purposely pick the area that will make you the worst to focus on. It is unlikely that Necromancer will close the DPS gap but it is possible for them to close the gap in things like support or defensive. But the focus is purely on DPS, which is an arbitrary choice which clearly indicates that it's a player mindset issue. Necromancer provides great support in PvP and WvW and I don't think it would be that hard to extend it into Raiding. It's a lot easier than DPS.

> > >

> > > Ok, let me start out by saying I'm addressing the PvE endgame here and not PvP and WvW, and if we talk about balance, it's imo of paramount importance to make that distinction, because ANet has already proven they can and will balance them differently!!!:

> > > The problem in the PvE endgame which happens to be by design heavily reliable on the DPS you put through (it literally skips mechanics!) is that next to the absolute lowest DPS benchmark the Necro has, it also doesn't provide enough _valuable_ support to the group! Let me go through all the classes in order of most valuable to less and see for yourself in what state the Necro is:

> > > - 1) Mesmer (Chrono): probably don't need to explain, right! It's a mandatory pick, even double in raids!!! If you have been living under a rock tho: ALL boonshare, including _permanent_ Quickness AND Alacrity, which they as only ones hold the monopoly to! Next to that, they're perfect tanks (where they have several evade options denying _all_ damage), and are even not that bad in healing if you spec them a bit differently (ppl tend to forget that tho), oh, but we're not done yet ... they are also the absolute CC and area control kings with Moa, Focus 4, etc. ... If we're talking about an absolute god tier class in the PvE endgame ... this is THE one!

> > > - 2) Ranger (Druid): Next to the fact they have some very good healing at their fingertips (not _the_ best tho), they have Spirits and Spotter which makes them unique and invaluable. Yeah, maybe you can get better healers, but they won't come with such important party wide buffs as the Druid can provide! Oops, forgot the superior Might botting capabilities the Druid has, providing it easily to 10 (!!!) allies.

> > > - 3) Warrior (BS): A Banner Warrior (Slave/B*tch/Lackey/Whatever) provides such huge buffs through their banners, ANet can nerf Empower Allies all they like, but they will still remain the undisputed META in Raids and even Fractals ... About fractals ... with boon strip being quite important in some encounters, The Banner Spellbreaker provides a lot of CC next to boon strip (... guess which class is not needed then ... pfff, and if you even forgot to take a SPB with you: there's always the mesmer which have it in their AA chain, which the Necro doesnt even have anymore ...).

> > > - 4) Revenant (Ren): provides permanent Alacrity, better healing than Druid, very good CC, and has the class unique Assassin's Presence buff in its arsenal. Actually becoming more and more META where 2 healers are needed/preferred instead of a second Druid in raids.

> > > - 5) Guardian (FB): provides permanent Quickness with ease, and next to that comes with a flurry of protection and even healing based options for providing valuable support to the team. The FB can also easily provide partywide Aegis (sometimes really underestimated), which is an absolute lifesaver capable to block the largest damage packages of which no Health Pool is capable of withholding (not even that of a Necro _including_ its Death Shroud) which literally if in the right hands can skip full mechanics in quite a few situations!

> > > - 6) Elementalist (Tempest): Although not META, it provides in actual numbers (by far) _the_ best healing output in the game. There's no class that comes near if it comes to sheer numbers. Although this game is not that healing oriented (look above: it's by design DPS oriented), if you want to feel secure as a party/squad, take a (capable) healing tempest! If specced the right way, you can't imagine how much CC it can also take btw (don't hold this against me, I might be wrong here, but since my last analysis, they're number 2 in CC options (just behind mesmer))!

> > > - 7) Necromancer (Scourge): .... There he is: number 7 ... OUT OF 9!!! They provide barriers, which in endgame PvE is just considered a much weaker Aegis ... and because of the nature of such protection mechanics (barrier is a protection mechanic) having to know beforehand _when_ to protect, protection skills should by design be compensated as such compared to healing capabilities: which is a reactive mechanic where you can _restore_ what has already been damaged! NO ... not barriers ... they can't even go over half of someones Health Pool! Don't get me wrong, barriers are not not terrible, but due to its nature, healing will always be more valuable then barriers will ever be (at least by this design)!

> > > Then the Necro has its unique class buff: Vampiric Presence, which is an absolute beautiful mechanic ... damage AND healing (lifeleech) whenever anyone in the party deals damage to mobs ... oh no ... NOT!!!! Its ICD kills this buff completely and kicks this to the bottom tier unique class buffs right next to Strength in Numbers (which is absolutely useless in the PvE endgame)!

> > > Let's continue, and go through the whole spectrum: CC: moderate (not bad, but not great either); boonshare: not even moderate ... only mightbot ... but hey, even Thief is capable to do that and does it a lot better! Area control: not that bad with options like chill, weakness, blind, some pulls (pretty much all Reaper though, but hey, let's still go with it), etc. but no real PvE endgame valuable stuff, shadow and ice fields are easily overwritten (and rightfully so), and endgame bosses have innate defence against the mostly soft control options (blind, weakness, fear, chill (lol on cooldown increase)) the Necro provides.

> > > Then there's the famous boon rips/corrupts ... In raids not even that valuable (major design flaw imo, ANet, are you listening!), but in (some) T4 Fractals actually quite important .... like already stated above ... Spellbreakers and Mesmers can at least be considered as good at it (if not more valuable in case of a SPB: providing heavy CC with it as well), and even being FAR more valuable to the group in other support, than the Necro will ever be capable of!

> > > Brings us to the 2 best group support capabilities a Necro has to offer: Vulnerability (if you can even call it support), but hey, which class isn't ... And lastly, but ~~not~~ least: ressing ... The NECRO (_Greek: indicating Death_) is best in _saving_ ppl from the death ..... how thematic! Hell, then at least give the Necro something that when they res someone, they make them their undead(-ish) servants creating a bond with the Necromancer boosting their stats or something ... Now it's just the exact opposite of what you expect from a Necro to be! Besides the fact that it's one of the most useless perks a class could have in endgame PvE, cause it literally means you were already failing as a team in the first place ...

> > > - 8) Engineer (Scrapper): I just assume they're bottom tier (in Support), because they always were. I'm afraid I just don't know anything about the Scrapper, pretty much the one specialisation I've almost never played before and have never really properly analysed either. But I wouldn't be surprised if they've already passed the Necro in its usefulness since the last buffs they've received. Need you guys to confirm though!

> > > - 9) Thief (Deadeye): Last, but that's just because they have the literal thematic disadvantage ... never really heard of a highly group supportive social thief before. But hey, let me give it a _shot_ ... The support Deadeye can act as a Might and Fury bot to **10** players in a squad, I repeat: 10 players ... while also providing teamwide CC via (basilisk) venom share. Has the same if not better soft area control and CC options as the Necro with their Immobilize (not many other classes have that easy access), cripple, weakness and vulnerability and has partywide stealth to skip parts of Fractals! .... Come to think of it, it's actually probably even more useful than Necro in endgame support, I just don't want to come across as an absolute downer here though (sorry Necro community!).

> > >

> > > And again, I'm NOT mentioning DPS whatsoever in the upper list!!! Which undeniable **is** the most important factor in encountering the PvE endgame ... but hey at least it's not anymore the **only** factor ... (I'll give you that)

> > >

> > > But as a conclusion ... let me ... well, there's always ... I mean, that can't be right, right? In DPS right at the bottom, and in support not far from it ... scratch that, probably also bottom ...

> > > **ArenaNet, please wake up and stop hating the Necro in PvE**

> > >

> >

> > PvE end game for most people isn't T4 fractals and raids in my opinion. Most people don't do those activities. They have different PvE end game, like making legendary weapons, achievement point and skin hunting, collections, story achievements. So for the small percentage of people (my opinion here) who do that, you're possibly right. But Anet isn't balancing around that. If half the population did it, maybe they would.

>

> Sure, I give you that endgame can be considered differently per player ... but the balance of **all** PvE content is the same everywhere, the encounter is just different. I give Fractal and Raid examples, but that's just because (as far as I know) it's considered by many people as the PvE endgame. But I can say the same about PvE open world ... the Necro would still suck at support (because that's the example I was giving). Maybe you want me to give a rundown on sustainability, something the Necro is famous at being really good at ... right? They have the biggest Health Pool! But how important is that really? Sure in low level PvE it's quite interesting to have ... you can survive a lot of low level trash mobs hits ... But Warrior has the same HP **and** the highest base Armor Rating!!! And then to think that you don't _have_ to survive a lot of hits if you nuke them (Ele (and mesmer)) before they even come close. Or they come close and you just hit them twice and poof they're gone (Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, etc.). Again, not really a big advantage for the Necro being at the bottom of the DPS list! But still, yea, they have the big HP, shroud (although imo not a defensive mechanic, but let's go with it), and life leech! But they're all quite passive defence options having to be mediocre by design when it really comes to numbers that count! To give you an example: how much damage can you avoid with a single block/aegis, or invulnerability window, or an evade/dodge, or _even_ some good mobility options to get out of the danger zone!!! Exactly: it could go up to infinite damage, as long as you know how to play these options. Mostly will take you some training time before you get there, but hey if you're doing endgame ... whatever it may be for you, you could consider yourself a practiced "soldier", right? ... Ow, and almost forgot: all those real valuable sustain options (blocks/invulns/evades/etc.) ... guess which class has the very least options to it .... You guessed right!

> The Necro is by many people (this is a guess, btw, not a real statistic) considered the class with training wheels in the PvE universe (actually, I don't think so, cause I got actual experience in playing all classes, but many other people do think so), just as the Warrior is ... except the warrior can take them off!

 

I survive better on a zerker necro than on a zerker warrior, though.

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> Sorry, I don't get what you are saying ... Vayne is saying that Anet caters to their most significant group of customers ... I don't see the 'standard' there that would result in Ele's getting survivability buffs.

 

He's saying if Anet is catering to their most significant group of customers (I.E. Casuals and Open World players), Elementalist would be more sturdy because it is a very unforgiving class in open world with it's light armor, 11k base hp, and little room for mistakes. It's not casual-friendly. That said, it's not needed primarily because people unconcerned with endgame meta environment will just put on some defensive stats to make up for the glassiness.

[Obtena.7952]

That's interesting, but I don't think it follows that Anet catering to their main customer base means they trivialize content by making OPed classes.

 

It's also insulting. This stigma that Casual and Open World players are just crap players that don't care about how they play the game is not realistic. Casual and open world players like challenges too; they aren't after IWIN buttons that make their experience boring and unmemorable.... and ANet knows that and addressed that with upping the difficulty of expansions and LS content. Anyone suggesting that 'logically' Anet trivialize content that way because it caters to the casual market has no idea what they are talking about.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> The difference between the necromancer and the ranger at this point is that both professions walk opposite path. The ranger walk the "buff allies path", while the necromancer walk the "debuff foes path". And while new PvE mechanisms favored ranger's path, they also heavily restrained necro's path.

 

That might be what we wish necro's did, but it's not. Not only are bosses immune to weakness and blind, making debuffing the boss useless, other classes actually have more access to it then necro. A daredevil procs weakness off crits and can blind spam like crazy; they are FAR better debuffers then necro. Vulnerability is also pretty poor on necro; we can only maintain a decent amount with Axe, which is kind of a crap way to fight. A MM build ranger can easily perma-25 a vuln stack solo by using fury procs from GS and allies to recharge Opening Strike.

 

It's the usual story; GW2 is apparently designed by comittee, because Anet is constantly undermining their own design. They make a debuff class, then not only give greater debuffs to others, they actively make content that is debuff-immune. It's not that Necro is badly designed or lacks a gameplay niche, it's that Anet has deliberately designed the game to prevent that gameplay from being useful.

 

[Ceit.7619]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That's interesting, but I don't think it follows that Anet catering to their main customer base means they trivialize content by making OPed classes.

>

> It's also insulting. This stigma that Casual and Open World players are just crap players that don't care about how they play the game is not realistic. Casual and open world players like challenges too; they aren't after IWIN buttons that make their experience boring and unmemorable.... and ANet knows that and addressed that with upping the difficulty of expansions and LS content. Anyone suggesting that 'logically' Anet trivialize content that way because it caters to the casual market has no idea what they are talking about.

 

I wouldn't say so much that Casuals are crap players just because they are more likely to use different gear. In a raid environment, it's all a big dps check, plus a few mechanics if you don't dps hard enough. Casuals aren't (and shouldn't) going to care about the 'meta' when they just want to do what feels fun and satisfying. So going Valk gear on a necro for a small dps loss, but huge gains in HP and lifeforce is a smart choice if you aren't trying to get close to some benchmark. As for how Anet balances content, they upped the difficulty in HoT, but they then turned it back down for PoF for the most part. Casuals were going into the HoT lands and getting murdered, and I'm sure that was a kind of wake-up call for them for designing content. PoF is in a good place I think on that front. It's not ridiculously easy (Press 1 until victory) like the base game, but it's not crushing like HoT's group-centric meta environment.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > But it doesn't have to be that way. That set up is a player choice. People could choose to do it differently. If they don't that is not on ANet. Again you are picking an area to focus on wherein Necromancer will always be bad as opposed to focusing in on areas in which Necromancer could improve.

>

> It's not. It's game-design. People can not choose to do it differently, simply because other support-classes - namely Chrono and Druid - are worlds (!!!) better than Necro could ever be. It's mere logic.

>

> > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > In PVP gamemodes, Boon Corruption is a huge deal. In PVE, it's nothing. That's really the crux of the issue surrounding Necromancer.

>

> The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

>

>

 

People can choose to do differently. Nothing stops them from doing that other than the players. There are different levels to which end game could be played at. You could have folks who want to do it the fastest and most efficient way and you could also grow an environment where those ideas take a back seat. I suspect that there is a lot more wiggle room for completing raids and fractals than what the players are willing to test out and confirm. Keep in mind, ANet pushes this game as a laid-back and casual game. They aren't going to create a causal game whose end game content requires people to pay 100% close attention to the meta-environment. That's something causal players aren't likely to do. But casual players may still want to raid and do fractals. Thus they are likely to design them such that you do not have to always be 100% optimal.

 

The big contention, after all, seems to be that you can't PUG with Necromancer. I've done raids with Necromancer with my guild. And I suspect that other Necromancer players who are in a guild have done them with their guild. Sure it may mean you go slower and that you might die more but it does not mean they are unplayable. It is the players who decide that these need to be done with the best of the best and because this is a player created requirement I find it unlikely that ANet will ever balance the game in that fashion. I'd be willing to bet that ANets range of acceptable performance level is a lot wider than the players range of acceptable performance level. And since the range that players find acceptable playability is an artificial creation I find it unlikely that ANet will balance in that direction. Just like it is unlikely that ANet will balance the DPS output in the direction that benchmarks say it should be.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > But it doesn't have to be that way. That set up is a player choice. People could choose to do it differently. If they don't that is not on ANet. Again you are picking an area to focus on wherein Necromancer will always be bad as opposed to focusing in on areas in which Necromancer could improve.

> >

> > It's not. It's game-design. People can not choose to do it differently, simply because other support-classes - namely Chrono and Druid - are worlds (!!!) better than Necro could ever be. It's mere logic.

> >

> > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > In PVP gamemodes, Boon Corruption is a huge deal. In PVE, it's nothing. That's really the crux of the issue surrounding Necromancer.

> >

> > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> >

> >

>

> People can choose to do differently. Nothing stops them from doing that other than the players. There are different levels to which end game could be played at. You could have folks who want to do it the fastest and most efficient way and you could also grow an environment where those ideas take a back seat. I suspect that there is a lot more wiggle room for completing raids and fractals than what the players are willing to test out and confirm. Keep in mind, ANet pushes this game as a laid-back and casual game. They aren't going to create a causal game whose end game content requires people to pay 100% close attention to the meta-environment. That's something causal players aren't likely to do. But casual players may still want to raid and do fractals. Thus they are likely to design them such that you do not have to always be 100% optimal.

 

They can. Why should they though? It's pure logic that dictates certain setups. It's not really "player choice", if option A ist vastly more efficient than option B. High DPS is exponentially overrewarding in this game. You also have the wrong view of this game. Due to horrible class-balancing and the game being as asocial as it is, this game is a lot more hardcore concerning its PvE-Endgame than most people think. I mean, if you aren't playing Chrono or Druid, you're forced to play multiple classes due to the game-design.

 

> The big contention, after all, seems to be that you can't PUG with Necromancer. I've done raids with Necromancer with my guild. And I suspect that other Necromancer players who are in a guild have done them with their guild. Sure it may mean you go slower and that you might die more but it does not mean they are unplayable. It is the players who decide that these need to be done with the best of the best and because this is a player created requirement I find it unlikely that ANet will ever balance the game in that fashion. I'd be willing to bet that ANets range of acceptable performance level is a lot wider than the players range of acceptable performance level. And since the range that players find acceptable playability is an artificial creation I find it unlikely that ANet will balance in that direction. Just like it is unlikely that ANet will balance the DPS output in the direction that benchmarks say it should be.

 

Like I said, this game is utterly asocial designed. I already explained that on page 4. Not everyone has the luxury of having a guild or static to raid with. A lot of people are forced to use the LFG. In that regard, yes, ArenaNet has to take that into consideration and needs to balance the classes in a way that each class is at least viable. Want to know what the reality looks like? If I build squads with any viable profession, nobody will complain. If I build a squad with my Power-Reaper, I will always have some people who're going to say "Power-Reaper? No, thanks". ArenaNet butchered Necro in PvE and needs to bring it in line with other professions again to change the community's mindset.

 

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That's interesting, but I don't think it follows that Anet catering to their main customer base means they trivialize content by making OPed classes.

>

> It's also insulting. This stigma that Casual and Open World players are just crap players that don't care about how they play the game is not realistic. Casual and open world players like challenges too; they aren't after IWIN buttons that make their experience boring and unmemorable.... and ANet knows that and addressed that with upping the difficulty of expansions and LS content. Anyone suggesting that 'logically' Anet trivialize content that way because it caters to the casual market has no idea what they are talking about.

 

Hmm, funny, doesn't that exactly mean it's really insulting to Necro mains, that they are literally capped at their capabilities where ANet tells them that their only option for more challenging stuff (according to your thinking) is to switch to another class! What I was just saying a couple of posts back (I actually disagree with this premises, but I got a feeling there's a majority that is thinking like this, and I'm not surprised ANet is doing the same), Necro can't take off their training wheels! If that's not insulting, what is???

And it's even worse, an Ele can at least stoop to Necro's level, by changing a few stats and traits, the Necro is never able to perform on Ele's level .... **Never!!!**

[Dace.8173]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > But it doesn't have to be that way. That set up is a player choice. People could choose to do it differently. If they don't that is not on ANet. Again you are picking an area to focus on wherein Necromancer will always be bad as opposed to focusing in on areas in which Necromancer could improve.

> > >

> > > It's not. It's game-design. People can not choose to do it differently, simply because other support-classes - namely Chrono and Druid - are worlds (!!!) better than Necro could ever be. It's mere logic.

> > >

> > > > @"Ceit.7619" said:

> > > > In PVP gamemodes, Boon Corruption is a huge deal. In PVE, it's nothing. That's really the crux of the issue surrounding Necromancer.

> > >

> > > The problem why boon corruption is such a huge deal in PvP is because ArenaNet took Boon-Spam too far. If it would be like in any other MMORPG and you'd have to use your boons intelligently and actively (instead of just spamming boons and generating them passively), it wouldn't be a problem.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > People can choose to do differently. Nothing stops them from doing that other than the players. There are different levels to which end game could be played at. You could have folks who want to do it the fastest and most efficient way and you could also grow an environment where those ideas take a back seat. I suspect that there is a lot more wiggle room for completing raids and fractals than what the players are willing to test out and confirm. Keep in mind, ANet pushes this game as a laid-back and casual game. They aren't going to create a causal game whose end game content requires people to pay 100% close attention to the meta-environment. That's something causal players aren't likely to do. But casual players may still want to raid and do fractals. Thus they are likely to design them such that you do not have to always be 100% optimal.

>

> They can. Why should they though? It's pure logic that dictates certain setups. It's not really "player choice", if option A ist vastly more efficient than option B. High DPS is exponentially overrewarding in this game. You also have the wrong view of this game. Due to horrible class-balancing and the game being as asocial as it is, this game is a lot more hardcore concerning its PvE-Endgame than most people think. I mean, if you aren't playing Chrono or Druid, you're forced to play multiple classes due to the game-design.

>

> > The big contention, after all, seems to be that you can't PUG with Necromancer. I've done raids with Necromancer with my guild. And I suspect that other Necromancer players who are in a guild have done them with their guild. Sure it may mean you go slower and that you might die more but it does not mean they are unplayable. It is the players who decide that these need to be done with the best of the best and because this is a player created requirement I find it unlikely that ANet will ever balance the game in that fashion. I'd be willing to bet that ANets range of acceptable performance level is a lot wider than the players range of acceptable performance level. And since the range that players find acceptable playability is an artificial creation I find it unlikely that ANet will balance in that direction. Just like it is unlikely that ANet will balance the DPS output in the direction that benchmarks say it should be.

>

> Like I said, this game is utterly asocial designed. I already explained that on page 4. Not everyone has the luxury of having a guild or static to raid with. A lot of people are forced to use the LFG. In that regard, yes, ArenaNet has to take that into consideration and needs to balance the classes in a way that each class is at least viable. Want to know what the reality looks like? If I build squads with any viable profession, nobody will complain. If I build a squad with my Power-Reaper, I will always have some people who're going to say "Power-Reaper? No, thanks". ArenaNet butchered Necro in PvE and needs to bring it in line with other professions again to change the community's mindset.

>

>

 

Saying it's pure logic is simply not true as it assumes that ALL players value the exact same things and enter end game content with the same set of goals in an agreement about how to get there. That is simply not true. It is 100% a player choice as people can, and some do opt to handle things differently. As for my view of the game is wrong, highly unlikely. Different, yes. Wrong, no. I just have a different set of values and approach the game differently. I also do not believe that the things you keep saying are logical and not player choices are not true since you can actually do things differently so long as you have friends who also want to do things differently. Yeah, when you PUG you are at the whim of the other people in the group but not everyone has to PUG. That's what guilds and friends are for and since not everyone has to or needs to PUG they can approach the end game content any way they please that goes well beyond what you consider logical. What you speak of is just one play style. It is also not true that people are forced to play different professions if they are not playing Chrono or Druid. There is zero evidence that supports that idea. None.

 

As for the game being asocial in design? I don't see any evidence of that. And sure not everyone has a guild but you have presented zero evidence to back the claim that a lot of people are forced to use LFG. While ANet may take things like using LFG into consideration that doesn't mean they balance the game the same way a certain segment of the community views things. Again, since the game is a social game and since it is set up for casual play it is far more likely that their idea of what is viable for Raids and Fractals is a lot broader than what some people in the community choose to view it as. The level of play you describe, in which you have to play by the meta and you need to have more than one toon if you don't have Chrono or Druid are really things that dedicated players engage in. ANet would design the profession so that the guy who is casual and doesn't have time to level more than one toon or the inclination to level more than one can play in Raids. Thus their idea of viable is likely broader. You are talking about ultimate efficiency. I have some serious doubts ANet designs the professions with that in mind.

 

As for your Power Reaper example, that's not an example of poor balance but poor player attitudes. However, if people invested just as much, if not more, time in broadening the scope of what can be played in Raids and Fractals then you would find it easier in the long term to play your preferred professions. So long as people allow the definition of what can be played for Raids be narrowly defined by ultimate efficiency as opposed to broader considerations then professions like Necromancer will always lag behind the rest. There is more than one way to approach Raiding, why allow people to define in such a way as to exclude you to the point that your only recourse is to hope that ANet changes your professions? Yes, Necromancer needs to be buffed. I said as much when talking with @"Axl.8924" But I also think that Necromancer players can push to broaden the scope on how end game content is approached so that you are not held hostage to the whims of the nerf bat.

[Axl.8924]

Personally and this is my opinion, but i notice that in fractals for instance the reason i hate the area where you fight the electrified floor guy so much, is because i am so slow its tedious to outrun wolves, but when it comes to surviving the boss itself, the hp and shroud help a lot to survive, and i know because i used to be the last man standing, so i think in conversation of survival reapers tankiness does translate to something.Maybe now that shroud is shorter we could get compensation of something of invulns? i dunno thats just wishful thinking.

 

What to do about scourge though? thats the big million dollar question.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Personally and this is my opinion, but i notice that in fractals for instance the reason i hate the area where you fight the electrified floor guy so much, is because i am so slow its tedious to outrun wolves, but when it comes to surviving the boss itself, the hp and shroud help a lot to survive, and i know because i used to be the last man standing, so i think in conversation of survival reapers tankiness does translate to something.Maybe now that shroud is shorter we could get compensation of something of invulns? i dunno thats just wishful thinking.

>

> What to do about scourge though? thats the big million dollar question.

 

The compensation for shorter shroud on reaper was already made. Problem was, as always, we got less than what we gave up.

 

As for scourge, as long as pvp and wvw isnt balanced seperately, nothing less than a rework woll work