Do you think Elementalist class "balancing" is justified?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Threather.9354" said:

> Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

 

And introduce a 40k deadeye at the same time. Riiiight.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

>

> And introduce a 40k deadeye at the same time. Riiiight.

 

Deadeye is single target only, requires either high flanking or a stationary golem without any movement. The 39k rifle rotation is not something you can use in raids very often. Just slight errors or a dodge out of rotation and you lose a lot of dps. Its like channeling meteor but for the length of the entire fight.

D/d will be the preferable rotation out of record attempts. Still 38k but again low to no cleave.

 

Compare that to ele. Cleaves the entire area while doing damage. Ele still has 33/38k dps. STILL ahead of condi engi and way easier to play if you want to go for complexety argument again.

And guess what. Weaver will most likely still be #1 in fracs and preferable on some raid bosses. It's just not #1 by a land slide anymore.

Try stacking deadeyes on xera or sloth. Adds will just murder you while stacking weavers is not a problem at all if you bring some cc on druids/warrs/chronos.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

 

And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

>

> And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

 

The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

> >

> > And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

>

> The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

 

And i said it before. Try the rotation. That rifle rotation is not something useful in a boss fight at all. Shots can get blocked by adds, dodges at wrong times can destroy your rotation. Movement in general drops your dps to 33k and below. Try it yourself on golem.

You justified weavers high damage with meteor channel time in previous threads. Rifle DE is like channeling meteors the entire fight. You can't sidestep OR dodge without huge dps drops. You will also constantly dodge out of chrono wells.

The rifle rotation is not faceroll at all. It doesn't have a complex pattern like condi engi but it has very strict timings and positioning is not easy with it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

> > >

> > > And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

> >

> > The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

>

> And i said it before. Try the rotation. That rifle rotation is not something useful in a boss fight at all. Shots can get blocked by adds, dodges at wrong times can destroy your rotation. Movement in general drops your dps to 33k and below. Try it yourself on golem.

> You justified weavers high damage with meteor channel time in previous threads. Rifle DE is like channeling meteors the entire fight. You can't sidestep OR dodge without huge dps drops. You will also constantly dodge out of chrono wells.

> The rifle rotation is not faceroll at all. It doesn't have a complex pattern like condi engi but it has very strict timings and positioning is not easy with it.

 

And I've said it before - you can say the same about weaver. But it does 20% less dps.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> And I've said it before - you can say the same about weaver. But it does 20% less dps.

 

You can freely move during all of weaver stuff except for meteor channel. Adds can't bodyblock anything because even your projectiles deal area damage.

The lava font nerf was maybe slight overkill but weaver needed nerfs to get back in line.

Stacking 2-3 weavers in fracs was common and in raids it was either stack mirage, weaver or scourge. Now we can have some diversity again. Thanks to shit cleave, stacking DE is maybe something you can do for a record run but not something you want for your weekly run.

 

Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.

Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.

> Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

 

Sure. Nevermind the conjures. Nevermind pre-placing them 30 seconds ahead so you could pick them up. Nevermind getting them stolen by pugs. Nevermind the risk to get interrupted on MS. Nevermind the ground-targeted areas which the target needs to stay in. It's worth nothing, right? Let the kitless holo which only needs to sync two skills with their heat bar output the same damage, right? Here's an idea - let's bring back power herald. Let them do 50k on sword auto.

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Xyonon.3987" said:

> I have to be fair here and say yes, a nerf for Weaver was needed. However I also have to say **NO it's NOT PERFECT** at all.

>

> That the optimal weaver rotation no longer attunes to air is saddening. It's far more interesting to swap to multiple attunements than just fire fire earth repeat. Maybe they should give the lightning storm a targeting system like the air overload, no diminishing returns in multi hit and make it the base power skill, while fire storm should become pure condi instead.

> I also disagree with the heavy nerf on lava font. Less cd is exciting, the 40% dmg nerf tho - 20% would have justified the lesser cd.

 

Weaver has basically no support, little cc, and a very punishing rotation. The correct way to nerf weaver is make bosses more interesting ( Dhuum CM) and nerf the crap out of chronomancer/druid/warrior which have been meta since HOT. The only reason you can stack weavers comfortebly is because the support block is overtuned and bosses dont move in general.

 

I think its time we adress the real problem in pve, which is chronomancer.

[Omnicron.2467]

I do not play Ele, but been thinking about this and I never minded Staff Weavers being able to lay down all the AOE damage and stack them for best DPS. I did not mind for three reasons

1. The rotation was complex and rewarding as it should be

2. It only worked on bosses who remained stationary, and only with good group support. For mobile enemies other professions did better

3. I have done many raids without elementalists, they are not needed to clear any content

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.

> > Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

>

> Sure. Nevermind the conjures. Nevermind pre-placing them 30 seconds ahead so you could pick them up. Nevermind getting them stolen by pugs. Nevermind the risk to get interrupted on MS. Nevermind the ground-targeted areas which the target needs to stay in. It's worth nothing, right? Let the kitless holo which only needs to sync two skills with their heat bar output the same damage, right? Here's an idea - let's bring back power herald. Let them do 50k on sword auto.

 

Kitless holo does 30k at best. Power ren does like 31-32k. the 33k+ Holo rotation has 2 kits and leaves forge at 50%. Ground target areas is only a problem at matt. In fact lower lava font cd and damage punishes it even less now.

Professions shouldn't be balanced with pug intelligence in mind. Actually whenever a pug steals conjures there is a high chance that the player has no clue what he is doing.

Every kitless holo i saw in pug raids had utter garbage dps. There was at most one sword holo that was decent. But he played with kits.

 

You make it sound like Weaver is on Power reaper level now. It is not. Weaver has top dps on large and medium dps on small. Also weaver has super strong burst with strong sustained damage.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.

> > > Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

> >

> > Sure. Nevermind the conjures. Nevermind pre-placing them 30 seconds ahead so you could pick them up. Nevermind getting them stolen by pugs. Nevermind the risk to get interrupted on MS. Nevermind the ground-targeted areas which the target needs to stay in. It's worth nothing, right? Let the kitless holo which only needs to sync two skills with their heat bar output the same damage, right? Here's an idea - let's bring back power herald. Let them do 50k on sword auto.

>

> Kitless holo does 30k at best. Power ren does like 31-32k. the 33k+ Holo rotation has 2 kits and leaves forge at 50%. Ground target areas is only a problem at matt. In fact lower lava font cd and damage punishes it even less now.

> Professions shouldn't be balanced with pug intelligence in mind. Actually whenever a pug steals conjures there is a high chance that the player has no clue what he is doing.

> Every kitless holo i saw in pug raids had utter garbage dps. There was at most one sword holo that was decent. But he played with kits.

>

> You make it sound like Weaver is on Power reaper level now. It is not. Weaver has top dps on large and medium dps on small. Also weaver has super strong burst with strong sustained damage.

>

>

 

How does weaver have top dps on large when it's huge hitbox benchmark is lower than deadeye's small hitbox one? No, weaver *is not* top dps. Actually even before this patch condi berserker could benchmark higher. And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there. Great incentive. Totally feels rewarding, right?

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there.

 

Wait what? It's just slightly more complex than Holo now. Maybe even easier.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there.

>

> Wait what? It's just slightly more complex than Holo now. Maybe even easier.

 

Riiiight. Conjures are still there. Ground-targeted aoes too. I'm an ele main, but I *do* play other classes from time to time.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And I've said it before - you can say the same about weaver. But it does 20% less dps.

>

> You can freely move during all of weaver stuff except for meteor channel. Adds can't bodyblock anything because even your projectiles deal area damage.

> The lava font nerf was maybe slight overkill but weaver needed nerfs to get back in line.

> Stacking 2-3 weavers in fracs was common and in raids it was either stack mirage, weaver or scourge. Now we can have some diversity again. Thanks to kitten cleave, stacking DE is maybe something you can do for a record run but not something you want for your weekly run.

>

> Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.

> Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

 

Most of the ele skill and weaver skills are bodyblock skills..

 

Why did ele need a 40% dmg nerf to lava font in pvp?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Threather.9354" said:

> > > Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

> >

> > And introduce a 40k deadeye at the same time. Riiiight.

>

> Deadeye is single target only, requires either high flanking or a stationary golem without any movement. The 39k rifle rotation is not something you can use in raids very often. Just slight errors or a dodge out of rotation and you lose a lot of dps. Its like channeling meteor but for the length of the entire fight.

> D/d will be the preferable rotation out of record attempts. Still 38k but again low to no cleave.

>

> Compare that to ele. Cleaves the entire area while doing damage. Ele still has 33/38k dps. STILL ahead of condi engi and way easier to play if you want to go for complexety argument again.

> And guess what. Weaver will most likely still be #1 in fracs and preferable on some raid bosses. It's just not #1 by a land slide anymore.

> Try stacking deadeyes on xera or sloth. Adds will just murder you while stacking weavers is not a problem at all if you bring some cc on druids/warrs/chronos.

>

>

 

people play more than raids or fracs and I don't care about deadeye being as good in raids or not.

 

What I care about is a deadeye that can oneshot everyone OUT OF STEALTH with no defense against it whatsoever. He just has to wait for you to pop all your evades and blocks... and then kills you.

[Quasar.1756]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

 

hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

[Swagg.9236]

Moving numbers up and down is not proper "balance" in a game as shallow, cookie-cutter and rotation-heavy as GW2. The worst thing that they could have done is nerf the only class set-up in the game that isn't entirely reliant on "select target -> spam everything." I know the circles are titanic and sort of impossible to miss (especially in PvE), but at least a player still had to manually place them in an appropriate area (which means that there is still technically some room for user error). They just randomly nerfed the only set-up in the entire game which truly require a player to use their brain on any level (it wasn't mentally demanding, but it still at least twitched a few neurons).

[TheQuickFox.3826]

> @"Quasar.1756" said:

> > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

>

> hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

 

Mkay? Anything else to say?

[Swagg.9236]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > @"Quasar.1756" said:

> > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

> >

> > hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

>

> Mkay? Anything else to say?

 

You can't deny that the Tempest and Weaver specs (as well as effectively every spec ever introduced) are just respective instances of DPS-boosting without any real introductions of new mechanics. They are straight up the same builds and playstyles but with more buttons slapped onto them. It's brainless and lazy. To that end, since everything is just DPS-boosting with no real thought of the consequences of effects on the game's design, to move the DPS numbers up and down is to directly overpower or invalidate those specs (given their extremely shallow nature within the context of fundamental game design).

 

Elite specializations aren't "improvements" to the game, they are marketing tools.

[Bio Flame.4276]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Naustis.8510" said:

> > Perfect patch. They bring down Ele from being OP to be on pair with other classes. At least here Anet devs made a good decision :)

> >

> > PS. To people who are saying Ele is garbage now. You just were nerfed to the point where you don't outdps 2nd best spec by 20-30% ;) weaver is still fine with 37k dps

>

> It would be perfect if the other classes required the same amount of effort to be on par, not 3 times less.

 

Also, the TOP DPS on SC was NOT an Ele, even on large targets.

So why the nerf?

[Jski.6180]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > @"Quasar.1756" said:

> > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

> >

> > hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

>

> Mkay? Anything else to say?

 

I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

[TheQuickFox.3826]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > @"Quasar.1756" said:

> > > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > > No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

> > >

> > > hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

> >

> > Mkay? Anything else to say?

>

> I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

 

I'm not saying @"Swagg.9236" does not have a point, I'm saying that in the way he tries to communicate his point fails to reach me.

 

When you say that the core Elementalist was outperformed by the Tempest and both the Core Ele and Tempest were outperformed as soon as the Weaver was released, I agree with you. And that is why I suggested some serious improvements to the Core Elementalist and Tempest to make them competitive again and not just some tiny niche builds.

 

Elementalist was originally designed as the most versatile profession of all. Earth for defence, bleeding survivability and tanking, water for healing, air for speed, control and single target damage and fire for nuking / raw damage. Choose and combine as you like. In my opinion, we don't have this now and this is a bit of a miss.

On the other side: I as a more casual-ish style player am not an expert of this matter, but I think I still have a point when I say that it would be welcome of the Elementalist would have a lot more versatility than the current [metabattle builds](https://metabattle.com "metabattle builds").

[Swagg.9236]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > > @"Quasar.1756" said:

> > > > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > > > No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

> > > >

> > > > hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

> > >

> > > Mkay? Anything else to say?

> >

> > I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

>

> I'm not saying @"Swagg.9236" does not have a point, I'm saying that in the way he tries to communicate his point fails to reach me.

>

> When you say that the core Elementalist was outperformed by the Tempest and both the Core Ele and Tempest were outperformed as soon as the Weaver was released, I agree with you. And that is why I suggested some serious improvements to the Core Elementalist and Tempest to make them competitive again and not just some tiny niche builds.

 

And the remaining point is that GW2 is fundamentally too shallow as a game to provide much for any of the "sub-par" specs other than just arbitrary bumps to DPS numbers. Every possible niche has already been filled at least twice over. At this point, we're just seeing team-buffs stack over and over on top of each other. It's stuff like the old Grace of the Land buff which demonstrates empirically how this game was built too shallowly: by the first expansion, the game had already forcibly outgrown it's own universal buff system (which is trash) by tacking on random passive buffs generated by unique classes. I'm not saying that the old Grace of the Land buff wasn't bad--I thought it was a step in the right direction if it lead to a general restructuring of the garbage boon/condition systems--but the fact that it existed at all (along with things like banners and the other in-combat passives like Spotter) really demonstrated how GW2 had hit its cap in playstyles and interesting mechanics long before the first expac even launched.

 

If you want "serious improvements" to any of the specs, you honestly have to rework the entire trait system (again lol), cull all of the game's bloat (which is honestly about 70%+ of the game's skills and gear) and rework the classes into things that actually provide unique benefits to a team structure rather than just making all of them into DPS bots with some meme gimmicks on the side.

 

>

> Elementalist was originally designed as the most versatile profession of all. Earth for defence, bleeding survivability and tanking, water for healing, air for speed, control and single target damage and fire for nuking / raw damage. Choose and combine as you like.

 

Except that Elementalist has only ever played like a typical PvE rotation-style, even within the context of PvP. It was always a matter of smearing a long string of skills together which simultaneously pumped damage and self-preserved until the stream ran out or something really nutty happened like a thief botting in with a billion damage (in which case, one would just pop a magical cantrip like Mist Form or Armor of Earth). That was 2012-13, and it really hasn't changed much since then. Tempest was super rotation heavy, relying on passives and instant-casts to get off easy overloads for self-preservation and damage; Weaver is possibly the worst nowadays in how it's incredibly PvE-tier when it comes to PvP encounter tactics (mostly just island-hopping from evade to evade while spamming damage in between).

 

It also spoke volumes about not only the Elementalist's design but also GW2's design on the whole how meta PvE Elementalist has almost exclusively relied only on Fire and Air stances since this game's launch. Even now, it's still the same except now Earth has a random new button which serves as a second lava font (so it might as well just be a boost to Fire rather than anything unique or interesting).