What exactly do you guys want?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

You said you wanted deadeye to have more interaction with malice on sets other than rifle? Now you do.

 

You said that the sneak attack cooldown is clunky? Here's an aftercast reduction on backstab so you can get back to stabbing sooner.

 

You said kneel and sniper's cover were clunky? Here's some skill queue and cast time changes so they feel smoother.

 

You said you wanted more damage in PvE? Done, you're now where you wanted to be damage wise.

 

You said you wanted D/D to be useful? Now it's pretty much going to be meta on two different builds in raids for two different purposes.

 

You said you disliked condi builds as they were too bursty and lacked skill in PvP modes? Here's the nerf you wanted, all without touching PvE viability.

 

You said you wanted malicious restoration to be better since the rework hit the total heal amount? Now it heals more.

 

You said you wanted mercy to not cancel your current mark? Ta da.

 

And after all this, you're still complaining?

 

Sure, swindler's equilibrium got hit. With trickery you have 17s cooldown on steal, now if you dodge an attack after stealing in you'll have at a maximum 6 seconds to wait for your next steal. That's still stupid strong people, and frankly it was overperforming beforehand.

 

Sure, Deadly Arts got nerfed through exposed weakness. But with 10 conditions on an enemy under 50% health it now offers a 51.2% damage increase. Doing the old impairing daggers spike Terrisimo popularised would apply immob, slow, poison and weakness to your target, that's 2% loss, and that's assuming you didn't blind your enemy prior. Think of the number of condis applied by thief auto attacks (sword in particular, cripple weakness and vuln on sneak attack now) and take utilities/sigils with different condis and odds are you'll not lose any damage vs single targets with minimal build changes.

 

You asked, they changed. Just saying.

[Scud.5067]

Yeah, but like, you know..

 

..with all these changes... things are different.

[Tinnel.4369]

Cake and eat it too!!

 

But, really. I like figuring out what works, build tinkering. Ever changing builds means ever changing play and that keeps me engaged over many classes.

 

What I don't appreciate is the sloppiness that seemingly always surrounds these patches. I've been saying it over and over again the past few months, but we need some better form of testing than live in competitive play. Yes, I realize that no release of anything is ever perfect, but there's better approaches for sure.

 

I believe three fundamental problems exist. First, they need a test realm or beta form desperately.

 

Second, there's either a lack of scope (or manpower) or an intrinsic barrier inherent to game design (skill splitting probably) to being able to balance across all the game modes. A test mode would help curb what holes in this get live, but it needs more.

 

Third, different things are prioritized monetarily. This is just a fact of life, but as a business ANet has to know it's customers are watching, formulating and expressing opinions, and making decisions accordingly.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> Cake and eat it too!!

>

> But, really. I like figuring out what works, build tinkering. Ever changing builds means ever changing play and that keeps me engaged over many classes.

>

> What I don't appreciate is the sloppiness that seemingly always surrounds these patches. I've been saying it over and over again the past few months, but we need some better form of testing than live in competitive play. Yes, I realize that no release of anything is ever perfect, but there's better approaches for sure.

>

> I believe three fundamental problems exist. First, they need a test realm or beta form desperately.

>

> Second, there's either a lack of scope (or manpower) or an intrinsic barrier inherent to game design (skill splitting probably) to being able to balance across all the game modes. A test mode would help curb what holes in this get live, but it needs more.

>

> Third, different things are prioritized monetarily. This is just a fact of life, but as a business ANet has to know it's customers are watching, formulating and expressing opinions, and making decisions accordingly.

 

That's fair. I guess I was more commenting on the knee jerk crying that seems to be going on, I mean, the patch really wasn't that bad at all, nothing is unviable as a result (if anything we're buffed in most cases) and while ANet do have a long way to go in terms of balance (more frequent patches for a start), they're improving. I'm also a build nerd so I enjoy changes on the whole, it's what keeps things fresh since I only play thief and a bit of Herald.

 

As to your fundamental problems;

1) Agreed. Too many wacky things make it through testing and knock the game sideways for half a year before fixing. That said they have been doing better as of late.

2) They're now skill splitting between modes when they once refused to even consider doing this, which IMO is a huge step forwards compared to previous patches. Sure, they have a long way to go because things were allowed to run off the rails for so long in HoT, but they are starting to address things. As you say, the problem is probably manpower, and there's probably more they could do to improve here.

3) Also agreed. I don't like the idea of nerfing something for the sole reason of making the new and shiny elite spec more desirable, but it's a logical consequence of a) the previous elite spec being allowed to be OP as they were once the new and shiny and b) elite specs being in the game for less time than core specs thus having less balance passes to smooth stuff out. Sometimes a late nerf can cause a false impression as to the reasons for said nerf, and it's hard for the Devs since how do you allow the player base to adapt if you change stuff too often, but also not change things so infrequently that people don't get fed up in the meantime? Not saying that they do it perfectly right now, I'd rather see more frequent balance passes as I say, but it's an iterative process and it's easy to see that they can't really win here.

 

In short, the sky is not falling, and we can't expect the weak stuff in the class to be buffed without tweaks to stuff that's overperforming. But things are really not that bad, they're pretty good even, and the Devs to their credit are improving in the way they are handling these things although they have some distance to go. Just pointing that out I guess.

[Tinnel.4369]

I'm still playing and enjoying the game over anything else, it's not all bad. However, I'm not playing thief right now because of the pathing. In this sense I feel the frustration of those who liked a certain playstyle and it's loss feels game breaking. There's better ways to voice it and certainly ways to adjust.

 

As consumers we drive the product to be consumed, if we're not honest nobody wins.

[Straegen.2938]

In a nutshell: un-nerf SB teleport, remove the Backstab miss cooldown, bring back Ricochet, undo the Blinding Powder changes, revert many of the S/D nerfs that it has seen over the years. I would also suggest rearranging several traits including swapping Revealed Training with Leeching Venoms.

 

The class never recovered from the forced trait line changes a few years ago. The class performed well with partial trait lines but has been under-performing since. It doesn't help that Deadeye is clunky (and still is) on a class centered around fluidity.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> I'm still playing and enjoying the game over anything else, it's not all bad. However, I'm not playing thief right now because of the pathing. In this sense I feel the frustration of those who liked a certain playstyle and it's loss feels game breaking. There's better ways to voice it and certainly what's to adjust.

>

> As consumers we drive the product to be consumed, if we're not honest nobody wins.

 

Honestly I've not played daredevil or core since the patch so I don't know how bad the pathing issues are, but I totally agree with people being upset about that. I get people being upset about playstyle changes, I mained S/P daredevil for most of HoT, I used to get really wound up about changes to sword etc but I've just come to the point of saying "if it's not useful then discard it" as far as builds go. I play sword for duels still and I enjoy it but there comes a point where all I really want is the other guy dead.

 

And you're totally right about honesty as consumers, no disagreement here :)

[Frozey.8513]

I like the new updates, Thief feels like more playable again.

[Safandula.8723]

Most of people that come to the forum are meant to complain, the same thing happens on every proffesion forum. If You just like the changes, You only play, and dont write how good changes they made. Personally i dont care about changes on s/d, becouse a lot of other classes were nerfed so maybe it wil be equal. But imo the cast time of blinding powder is not a nerf, its just a change of mechanic, that people got used to, i dont even mind stomping and resing, u can still do that, but u lose a lot of dynamics. For example BP +instant backstab with steal. Stun break is nice, but they should revert the cast time. Compared to kinda low thief dmg, it rly needs some dynamics

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Straegen.2938" said:

> In a nutshell: un-nerf SB teleport, remove the Backstab miss cooldown, bring back Ricochet, undo the Blinding Powder changes, revert many of the S/D nerfs that it has seen over the years. I would also suggest rearranging several traits including swapping Revealed Training with Leeching Venoms.

>

> The class never recovered from the forced trait line changes a few years ago. The class performed well with partial trait lines but has been under-performing since. It doesn't help that Deadeye is clunky (and still is) on a class centered around fluidity.

 

Like I said, pathing issues are a game breaking bug for core/DD and should be pressed for a fast fix, I have no problem with people ranting about that, I would too.

 

I don't have a problem with the backstab cooldown personally but when I hit a malicious backstab in WvW it does 20-29k, so it usually finishes a fight there and then. Removing the cooldown just for backstab but not malicious backstab would be an interesting option to differentiate between deadeye and core/DD for D/P play, I don't have a problem with a full revert tho.

 

Blinding powder I can see both ways, it does break combos like D/P 5>bp>2 etc but I don't think you should be able to instantly stealth or evade while stunned personally as that provides counterplay. That's my main argument against mirage so I find it hard to argue this one, especially with the stunbreak aspect being thrown in.

 

I never understood ricochet being removed as that trait was a ton of fun, and now rifle is the single target DPS option I would have zero problems with P/P being repurposed for ricochet type play.

 

S/D was too strong in the past with instant cast stunbreak on sword 2 etc, but now it's a bit of a one trick pony because of the way boonsteal and unblockable work in this meta. Honestly I think it's not in a bad place at the moment on deadeye what with the sneak attack giving back endurance etc, the problem is that larcenous strike needs to either be a DPS or a utility option to balance it well and at the moment it does both too well. I honestly don't know how to fix it though.

 

Honestly I'd rather not see revealed training in SA, that would be a pretty obnoxious buff to perma stealth deadeye. Stealth focussed power builds really do not need buffs at this point.

[Vermagus.7804]

From what I can tell, the ones that are complaining the most are other classes that feels they are entitled to be top DPS or thieves that don't play DE much ( if any) and saw no improvement to their specs.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Vermagus.7804" said:

> From what I can tell, the ones that are complaining the most are other classes that feels they are entitled to be top DPS or thieves that don't play DE much ( if any) and saw no improvement to their specs.

 

This is probably true.

 

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> Most of people that come to the forum are meant to complain, the same thing happens on every proffesion forum. If You just like the changes, You only play, and dont write how good changes they made.

 

This too.

 

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

>Personally i dont care about changes on s/d, becouse a lot of other classes were nerfed so maybe it wil be equal. But imo the cast time of blinding powder is not a nerf, its just a change of mechanic, that people got used to, i dont even mind stomping and resing, u can still do that, but u lose a lot of dynamics. For example BP +instant backstab with steal. Stun break is nice, but they should revert the cast time. Compared to kinda low thief dmg, it rly needs some dynamics

 

Yeah, it's a repurposing. I get why they did it, that said I usually play roll for ini over blinding powder so I guess if people wanted the stunbreak they'd do the same. As I said above, I find it hard to argue this one one way or another, I'd probably say keek it the same as it was simply because now it's almost identical to shadow gust in functionality which is less interesting than it could be.

[Daccura.4769]

People will complain about everything all the time. As for me I have to say reading this changes I got mad but after some testing and trying out some stuff I am fine with these changes (talking about PvE).

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> You said that the sneak attack cooldown is clunky? Here's an aftercast reduction on backstab so you can get back to stabbing sooner.

>

 

The idea of the cooldown on sneak attack is based on the idea that it will no longer require stealth, rather positioning (e.g. Positioned at the back will swap Skill#1 to backstab), that's why it's "sneak" instead of "stealth". They instead went to the route of changing them all to "stealth" attacks but treat it like a "sneak". Thus applying the cooldown on "sneak" attack but keeping the stealth requirement because it is a "stealth" attack makes it clunky.

 

The backstab delay is even clunkier if the Thief is moving since the attack animation is somehow slowed by the moving animation. Thus, the cooldown often times only result in one backstab chance per stealth.

 

> You said you wanted more damage in PvE? Done, you're now where you wanted to be damage wise.

>

 

Nope. Big initiatives problem and still weapon swapping is not an option to maintain DPS. This is really not about "more damage", it is about allowing the Thief to be flexible in combat instead of mindlessly using the same two skills from the same weapon set the entire fight.

 

Opening the weapon swap as an option to maintain or increase DPS should have been the solution, not more damage.

 

> And after all this, you're still complaining?

>

 

Casting time on DE Mark needs to go away since the casting time is detrimental to melee builds. In fact, Steal is needed for melee builds but DE Mark is needed for Rifle. How are they going to reconcile that is by making Steal available for F1 and DE Mark is automatically applied to the Thief's first target until that target dies.

[Tinnel.4369]

I think cast time on the mark skill makes way more sense than on the mark.

[kash.9213]

Bugs aside, I want DE stolen items reverted to not grant stealth but to be instant cast again and I would like dodging while in Kneel to roll in place so as to not lose my footprint which would be closest to to original DE which was awesome. After that like Tinnel mentioned, the knee jerk sloppiness in changes is getting tiresome and blurring the identity of the Elite. Let's say the next expansion Elite is billed as being a gadget support class, are we to believe it's not going to end up being patched into another daredevil knockoff?

 

Some of us are cool with one change or another so we might say, that was a good change, but was it appropriate compiled with all of the changes and the general direction the Elite is being taken towards.

[Tails.9372]

> What exactly do you guys want?

What do I want? A-Net to stop beating dead horses would be a good start.

 

> And after all this, you're still complaining?

But of course, the recent change to unload is probably the second most aggravating nerf P/P ever got. Even after the removal of the ricochet trait the build could still take on enemy camps in WvW no problem but this rn is just bulls**t. Not only that nobody asked for this nerf but this actually impacts the gameplay of this weapon set noticeably in a negative way.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> The idea of the cooldown on sneak attack is based on the idea that it will no longer require stealth, rather positioning (e.g. Positioned at the back will swap Skill#1 to backstab), that's why it's "sneak" instead of "stealth". They instead went to the route of changing them all to "stealth" attacks but treat it like a "sneak". Thus applying the cooldown on "sneak" attack but keeping the stealth requirement because it is a "stealth" attack makes it clunky.

 

This sounds good, but has no actual resemblance to the game or to the patches leading up to the sneak attack cooldown being introduced. Stealth attacks never functioned in this way, so far as I'm aware, so I'm wondering where you get any of this information. The cooldown was introduced to punish a miss, not to change how the skill functioned.

 

> The backstab delay is even clunkier if the Thief is moving since the attack animation is somehow slowed by the moving animation. Thus, the cooldown often times only result in one backstab chance per stealth.

 

I'm aware of this, see above, the cooldown was introduced to punish a badly timed stealth attack, so only having the one chance per stealth is kinda the point. I'm not going to respond to that further, simply because the pros and cons of the backstab cooldown have been discussed ad nauseum at this point and it's clearly here to stay. I don't have a problem with it personally, you obviously do. I'll leave it at that.

 

> Nope. Big initiatives problem and still weapon swapping is not an option to maintain DPS. This is really not about "more damage", it is about allowing the Thief to be flexible in combat instead of mindlessly using the same two skills from the same weapon set the entire fight.

 

There's no ini problem in PvE if you hit your M7 proc then immediately sneak attack, which is easier to do now than ever. I don't really agree with rotations necessarily having to be complex, if it just means we do the same thing as before just with extra steps, that's just "complexity" for the sake of it (as if mindlessly following a rotation is somehow more skillful than what we do). If that's what you want then I'd suggest playing ele or holo. A bigger issue to me is that DPS used to be better by ignoring malice altogether, and that's what they're trying to address.

 

> Opening the weapon swap as an option to maintain or increase DPS should have been the solution, not more damage.

 

You're kinda saying the same thing again; you want more damage with extra steps, not just more damage. Thief isn't designed to spam the highest DPS skill, swap weapons and have fresh cooldowns ready to use, if it was it would kinda be broken.

 

> Casting time on DE Mark needs to go away since the casting time is detrimental to melee builds. In fact, Steal is needed for melee builds but DE Mark is needed for Rifle. How are they going to reconcile that is by making Steal available for F1 and DE Mark is automatically applied to the Thief's first target until that target dies.

 

The spec is supposed to be high ranged damage on single targets. It's not a problem if it doesn't synergise well with melee sets, that's what daredevil and core are supposed to be doing. If anything I'd say daredevil is just a plain bad spec and needs a rework too, as it's basically core thief with an extra dodge. No new mechanics, same gameplay as before.

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On a side note, we have some people here saying that the changes to deadeye are blurring the identity of the elite (I presume people are thinking of a stealth sniper here, correct me if I'm wrong), but others are saying that deadeye is bad for melee builds as though that's a bad thing and not just a necessary consequence of the spec's identity as a long range sniper build. There's no consensus here on what deadeye is actually "supposed" to be, and I think people's preconceptions on what it should or shouldn't be is colouring their vision.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > The idea of the cooldown on sneak attack is based on the idea that it will no longer require stealth, rather positioning (e.g. Positioned at the back will swap Skill#1 to backstab), that's why it's "sneak" instead of "stealth". They instead went to the route of changing them all to "stealth" attacks but treat it like a "sneak". Thus applying the cooldown on "sneak" attack but keeping the stealth requirement because it is a "stealth" attack makes it clunky.

>

> This sounds good, but has no actual resemblance to the game or to the patches leading up to the sneak attack cooldown being introduced. Stealth attacks never functioned in this way, so far as I'm aware, so I'm wondering where you get any of this information. The cooldown was introduced to punish a miss, not to change how the skill functioned.

>

 

There was no explanation given to the stealth attack cooldown. The "punish the miss" is just a conclusion accepted, but not the actual reason. The cooldown only makes sense if the attack doesn't require stealth. As it stands, it makes zero sense.

 

> > The backstab delay is even clunkier if the Thief is moving since the attack animation is somehow slowed by the moving animation. Thus, the cooldown often times only result in one backstab chance per stealth.

>

> I'm aware of this, see above, the cooldown was introduced to punish a badly timed stealth attack, so only having the one chance per stealth is kinda the point. I'm not going to respond to that further, simply because the pros and cons of the backstab cooldown have been discussed ad nauseum at this point and it's clearly here to stay. I don't have a problem with it personally, you obviously do. I'll leave it at that.

>

 

It's fine, I don't want to go through that discussion either. However, the fact remains that it is clunky.

 

> > Nope. Big initiatives problem and still weapon swapping is not an option to maintain DPS. This is really not about "more damage", it is about allowing the Thief to be flexible in combat instead of mindlessly using the same two skills from the same weapon set the entire fight.

>

> There's no ini problem in PvE if you hit your M7 proc then immediately sneak attack, which is easier to do now than ever. I don't really agree with rotations necessarily having to be complex, if it just means we do the same thing as before just with extra steps, that's just "complexity" for the sake of it (as if mindlessly following a rotation is somehow more skillful than what we do). If that's what you want then I'd suggest playing ele or holo. A bigger issue to me is that DPS used to be better by ignoring malice altogether, and that's what they're trying to address.

>

 

What if you don't want M7? Why must I have to pick a certain build? Whatever happen to build diversity?

 

There are more to PvE than just Raids. M7 may be good in raids, but not everywhere else.

 

What you call "complexity" I call "flexibility". I think we just have to agree to disagree.

 

> > Opening the weapon swap as an option to maintain or increase DPS should have been the solution, not more damage.

>

> You're kinda saying the same thing again; you want more damage with extra steps, not just more damage. Thief isn't designed to spam the highest DPS skill, swap weapons and have fresh cooldowns ready to use, if it was it would kinda be broken.

>

 

I'm talking about options. As it stands, Thief is locked down to one weapon set. And I never said anything about "fresh cooldowns" either, that's all you.

 

> > Casting time on DE Mark needs to go away since the casting time is detrimental to melee builds. In fact, Steal is needed for melee builds but DE Mark is needed for Rifle. How are they going to reconcile that is by making Steal available for F1 and DE Mark is automatically applied to the Thief's first target until that target dies.

>

> The spec is supposed to be high ranged damage on single targets. It's not a problem if it doesn't synergise well with melee sets, that's what daredevil and core are supposed to be doing. If anything I'd say daredevil is just a plain bad spec and needs a rework too, as it's basically core thief with an extra dodge. No new mechanics, same gameplay as before.

>

 

It is a problem if it doesn't work with melee. It's fine if you don't want to acknowledge it. It doesn't change the fact that it is a problem.

[Kageseigi.2150]

What do I want? Consider the following to include the Core Thief...

 

Stronger 1v1 fight capability in sPvP... as in a much more level playing field.

 

The Thief is an assassin class that has to run away at first sight of most enemies.

 

The Thief should excel at single-combat. The Thief should have very high single-target damage... especially in melee.

 

The Thief currently has no true identity.

Yes, the Thief is mobile, but so many other professions are as well in today's game.

Yes, the Thief can disappear, but that does all-but-nothing in sPvP. Mesmers, Rangers, Engineers can also.

Yes, the Thief can hit hard. So can everything else. There's talk of a Ranger hitting for 57k with one hit. And while that is considered outrageous, it has been shown to hit for 25k+ consistently.

 

The Thief cannot duel proficiently.

The Thief cannot bunker proficiently.

The Thief cannot assault a defended point proficiently.

The Thief cannot team fight proficiently.

 

What does the Thief do proficiently? What can it do proficiently?

It can run from empty point to empty point.

It can run to add damage to an already even or advantaged fight.

 

The Thief is just too squishy relative to its ability to deal effective damage. There is too much sustain and mitigation on other professions, yet the Thief doesn't get those mitigations. It's either avoid or die... and the Thief has little advantage in avoiding attacks while still maintaining the needed pressure. There is too much AoE, too many tracking projectiles, too many conditions.

 

Once again, the Thief needs to be a high threat to any lone enemy. Instead, there are those that can just sit there and /laugh at an approaching Thief.

 

Is this a general concept? Yes. But this patch doesn't help to achieve it... especially to any non-Deadeye.

[Artaz.3819]

I want [Fire For Effect](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_for_Effect "Fire For Effect") GM trait to remove the Deadeye's Mark F1 and F2 cast times.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> What does the Thief do proficiently? What can it do proficiently?

> It can run to add damage to an already even or advantaged fight.

The ability to "add damage to a already even fight" is what has made thief perma meta in PvP.

 

If a team doesn't have a thief, then in order to win that team needs to be able to consistently outplay the opposing team in equal number fights. Assuming outplay is a unreliable strat, which is where thief comes in. Thief allows a team to make sure every fight in unfair in their favor which means they don't need to rely on outplay they just have to be good enough to stall until the thief comes in, which given how fast thief rotates won't take long.

 

Winning fights is a lot easier when the deck is stacked in your favor.

 

 

> There is too much sustain and mitigation on other professions, yet the Thief doesn't get those mitigations. It's either avoid or die...

Avoiding a attack is a type of mitigation.

 

 

 

[Tails.9372]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> What does the Thief do proficiently? What can it do proficiently?

> It can run from empty point to empty point.

Not even that, some builds which originally excelled at taking down small groups of trash mobs have been nerfed to the point were even taking an undefended point becomes a hassle.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> You said you wanted deadeye to have more interaction with malice on sets other than rifle? Now you do.

 

Tbh I don't think anyone had an issue with Malice interacting with other kits. It's just DE's Mark has no interaction with other kits but Rifle, and a little bit of OH pistol. And it's still largely the case.

 

> You said that the sneak attack cooldown is clunky? Here's an aftercast reduction on backstab so you can get back to stabbing sooner.

 

The aftercast reduction on backstab did not affect the rate at which you can cast it. The ICD triggers as the cast completes/as the aftercast delay began. It's literally the same. All it does is make post-stealth AA's/skills come faster.

 

> You said kneel and sniper's cover were clunky? Here's some skill queue and cast time changes so they feel smoother.

 

Won't oppose this. Though it was severely needed.

 

> You said you wanted more damage in PvE? Done, you're now where you wanted to be damage wise.

 

The thief did get more damage, but not any increase in diversity, and the buffed PvE damage (on the already-best DPS kit) came with nerfs to everything in PvP/WvW and disproportionate nerfs to the worst kits in PvP/WvW.

 

> You said you wanted D/D to be useful? Now it's pretty much going to be meta on two different builds in raids for two different purposes.

 

D/D (power) is **only** useful in PvE raiding. It's arguably the worst weapon kit in the entire game in the PvP formats.

 

> You said you disliked condi builds as they were too bursty and lacked skill in PvP modes? Here's the nerf you wanted, all without touching PvE viability.

 

Again, not opposed. Though a big issue is still condition breadth vs depth more than anything.

 

> You said you wanted malicious restoration to be better since the rework hit the total heal amount? Now it heals more.

 

I honestly don't recall seeing anyone complain too much about this because it's a bad heal anyways, but sure.

 

> You said you wanted mercy to not cancel your current mark? Ta da.

 

Cool, the utility is now comparable to RFI, which also got nerfed.

 

> And after all this, you're still complaining?

 

I mean, nothing about the thief that's been an issue for the past six years was fixed, just some issues which some people running DE optimizing for PvE have been complaining about.

 

> Sure, swindler's equilibrium got hit. With trickery you have 17s cooldown on steal, now if you dodge an attack after stealing in you'll have at a maximum 6 seconds to wait for your next steal. That's still stupid strong people, and frankly it was overperforming beforehand.

 

Sure it was. Unfortunately the thief's PvP strength on other kits didn't improve.

 

> Sure, Deadly Arts got nerfed through exposed weakness. But with 10 conditions on an enemy under 50% health it now offers a 51.2% damage increase. Doing the old impairing daggers spike Terrisimo popularised would apply immob, slow, poison and weakness to your target, that's 2% loss, and that's assuming you didn't blind your enemy prior. Think of the number of condis applied by thief auto attacks (sword in particular, cripple weakness and vuln on sneak attack now) and take utilities/sigils with different condis and odds are you'll not lose any damage vs single targets with minimal build changes.

>

 

So you're saying if we play a specific weapon combo running Daredevil running a specific utility, we can potentially have the same PvP damage we did as before.

I dunno if you know, but Terrissimo was a cheater who scripted trait and utility skill swaps upon reset. You can abuse projectiles on any kit with range.

Might as well just gut everything else to require running garbage utils for their less-powerful specs/lines to justify this logic.

 

> You asked, they changed. Just saying.

 

Yeah, they changed a few absolutely necessary QoL things that to be frank, should have never made it to live. I'm appreciative of the fact these things happened, but they also made all of the previously-mediocre builds relatively worse, and outright nerfed the thief across the board the PvP modes, especially DrD and core.

 

These were pretty bad changes all-in-all because all it did was further alienate off-meta picks for PvP which is way more significant than it is in PvE.