Would you still consider mirage good post patch? Or is mesmer in general under-performing?

[MrForz.1953]

> @"DrDivine.5378" said:

> There was a time when thief hard countered mesmer for a very long time, to the point where mesmer could not be taken into a match. Double ranged shatter was the most viable build at the time and thieves just ate right through it, no chance if winning lol

 

Hm, yes, this I do remember.

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Blue.1207" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > I'm not sure I even remember Mesmer being underperforming since 2012.

> >

> > Then you haven't been paying attention very long

>

> 4.5 years of getting blown up by thieves. Yey.

 

Pretty sure everyone that isn't a guardian has spent the past 5 years getting blown up by thieves.

 

[DrDivine.5378]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > I'm not sure I even remember Mesmer being underperforming since 2012.

> > >

> > > Then you haven't been paying attention very long

> >

> > 4.5 years of getting blown up by thieves. Yey.

>

> Pretty sure everyone that isn't a guardian has spent the past 5 years getting blown up by thieves.

>

 

Not exactly, there were a few professions that could reliably take on a thief outside of guardian. Warrior could shrug them off pretty well or it at least be a skill based matchup, elementalist and engis were also decent at taking them on.

 

It all came down to if you got jumped by a thief, can you do anything? The answer for mesmer was hell no lol

[eyelogix.1654]

Mirage is pretty much cancer, same goes with scourge

[Gwaihir.1745]

I'd like the hear the argument for it 'being underpowered'. Since in the topic title you mentioned mirage in the previous sentence 'mesmer in general' by semantics would include mirage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> As long as mesmer has a build that is considered meta it will always be too powerful for the PvP community

 

Mesmer has always had a build that was B Tier or higher for the PVP community. It has never been trash tier at any point since its debut. It has had some issues with comps but it has never been outright detrimental to your team to play as a class., unless you have no idea what you are doing.

 

That would be fine if at some point someone did not look at the drawing board and go "You know what mesmers need? an effective defiance bar." and had people agree with him/.her.

[eksn.7264]

> @"Legacy.7360" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > As long as mesmer has a build that is considered meta it will always be too powerful for the PvP community

>

> Correction here, Mesmers have ALWAYS been meta since release day. Dev's favor this class - it's there baby along with the warrior class. Mesmers will always be viable no matter the season. Wish other class's had as much love.

 

Obviously not true as people said, but I wouldn't say it was completely pushed out of the meta by thief. Mesmer used to be a high risk, high reward class with a very high skill ceiling. It always had one of the best burst potential in the game and good use of portal could carry games hard regardless. I still wouldn't say it's easy to use right now, just that it became very forgiving since HoT. So before if you didn't know how to use your skills, you didn't get a second chance. Now if you don't know how to use your skills, maybe you won't die, but you won't be very useful.

 

I'm glad they're not gutting mirage, as much as I hate fighting them as much as everyone else. You can't just take away all their options. The last nerf was decent and doing some minor changes to Elusive Mind and Blinding Dissipation would probably put the class more in line with the rest. Those are the 2 factors imo that buy mesmer a crazy amount of time. I'm far from being a mesmer main though, maybe there's a better solution.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"eksn.7264" said:

> > @"Legacy.7360" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > As long as mesmer has a build that is considered meta it will always be too powerful for the PvP community

> >

> > Correction here, Mesmers have ALWAYS been meta since release day. Dev's favor this class - it's there baby along with the warrior class. Mesmers will always be viable no matter the season. Wish other class's had as much love.

>

> Obviously not true as people said, but I wouldn't say it was completely pushed out of the meta by thief. Mesmer used to be a high risk, high reward class with a very high skill ceiling. It always had one of the best burst potential in the game and good use of portal could carry games hard regardless. I still wouldn't say it's easy to use right now, just that it became very forgiving since HoT. So before if you didn't know how to use your skills, you didn't get a second chance. Now if you don't know how to use your skills, maybe you won't die, but you won't be very useful.

>

> I'm glad they're not gutting mirage, as much as I hate fighting them as much as everyone else. You can't just take away all their options. The last nerf was decent and doing some minor changes to Elusive Mind and Blinding Dissipation would probably put the class more in line with the rest. Those are the 2 factors imo that buy mesmer a crazy amount of time. I'm far from being a mesmer main though, maybe there's a better solution.

 

This states my opinion a bit more clearly. By no means do I think mesmer as a whole is broken, they just need to ensure mesmers have to follow the same stun rules as everyone else, or give up more for the freedom to ignore stuns, and then it would be fine. annoying, but fine.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

 

I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

[coro.3176]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

>

> I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

 

Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

> >

> > I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

>

> Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

 

Where's the trade off for the classes with disproportionate access to stability?

[Nuka Cola.8520]

They're useful, that's what they are. Some want them to be useless...

 

I do think they should give blind on shatter and Riddle of Sands a 5sec ICD, tho. Elusive Mind break stun on dodge should be gone, but being able to dodge while stunned without EM should remain as the class's gimmick. The rest is all good. They should buff the damn Scepter. Its way too garbage compared to staff or Axe.

[coro.3176]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

> > >

> > > I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

> >

> > Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

>

> Where's the trade off for the classes with disproportionate access to stability?

 

In general, stability takes up skill/trait slots (it is balanced as part of the power budget of those) and can be played around - usually by just waiting a few seconds. More importantly, it is obvious when your opponent has stability, so you know not to waste a CC on them in that time.

 

Stunbreaks also take up skill slots. Again, these are balanced as part of the power budget of those skills - they are on long cooldowns (usually 30-40s or more) and the associated skill tends to be slightly weaker or more limited due to the fact that it's a stunbreak. True, your opponent can't predict them or play around them, but their CC is not wasted because it will generally come off cooldown faster than the stunbreak skill, and they've forced a skill-use, so it's an even trade.

 

EM-dodge-stunbreak on the other hand, is too good no matter how you slice it. For the cost of a single trait slot and 3s of endurance regen, it

 

* breaks stun

* cleanses a condi

* does not use up a skill slot

* has no ICD, can be used twice in succession

* being limited by endurance, can be used about twice (or more with sigils/vigor) as often as a normal stunbreak.

* cannot realistically be played around, since CC skills are on longer cooldowns than a dodge

 

Oh, and due to the Mirage mechanic, you are able to counterattack while dodging.

 

The risk-reward is out of balance here. The attacker has risked a skill and a cast time and succeeded. The Mirage has undone that with a dodge, used no skills, and can counterattack while evading.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

> > >

> > > I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

> >

> > Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

>

> Where's the trade off for the classes with disproportionate access to stability?

 

Bountiful Disillusionment — Gain stability when you use a Shatter skill. You and nearby allies gain boons based on which Shatter was used

 

Far from disproportionate access.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

> > > >

> > > > I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

> > >

> > > Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

> >

> > Where's the trade off for the classes with disproportionate access to stability?

>

> Bountiful Disillusionment — Gain stability when you use a Shatter skill. You and nearby allies gain boons based on which Shatter was used

>

> Far from disproportionate access.

 

I was not talking about Mesmer/Mirage.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > Following "the same stun rules as everyone else" would destroy the point of the specialization. ANET has already done that with Chronomancer, by gutting alacrity and giving it to other classes.

> > > >

> > > > I sincerely hope they understand that destroying the root point of a specialization would not be positive.

> > >

> > > Okay, but being able to shrug off stuns and cast while evading is a huge huge HUGE advantage in PvP. If you give that kind of advantage to a spec, there has to be some downside to it to keep it balanced ... and there really isn't any.

> >

> > Where's the trade off for the classes with disproportionate access to stability?

>

> Bountiful Disillusionment — Gain stability when you use a Shatter skill. You and nearby allies gain boons based on which Shatter was used

>

> Far from disproportionate access.

 

. . .You know that got nerfed and gives 1 second of stability now right?

[Xstein.2187]

So I have still been mostly playing power burst shatter since before HoT in pvp. Played burst shatter chrono till people complained and cussed too much, then I quite. After PoF came out, did the same thing with burst shatter mirage till I got tired of the people complaining too much in matches about mesmer being too OP. So, my question is, is it safe to play burst shatter mes in pvp again without being the bane of everyone's existence? It is just kinda depressing. Pre HoT I felt like I was good/competitive and people didn't complain as much (or any more than other classes), Post HoT the power creep really pushed burst shatter out of the meta so I both felt a lot worse/noncompetitive and people hated me much, much more. Post PoF, I was obviously a lot, lot better. However, people now seemed to not only hate me, but wanted to kill me as well. Pretty much I have been waiting 3 years now to be able to play burst shatter in PvP competitively in matches without getting cried or cussed at, like it was pre-HoT. Is this possible now, or should I continue to wait? This also scares me because I know that if mirage cloak gets nurfed, burst shatter may once again not only be noncompetitive, but people would still continue to complain about Mesmer in matches. Long story short, PvP in this game has blatently sucked ass since HoT, and not just for one reason, or the reasons most of the community thinks.

 

p.s. an example of this is before the last patch Jazz posting a burst shatter roaming video and people dissing him and the build on the forums even though he wasn't even using elusive mind. Many in this community in recent years have just been morally, and intellectually, so messed up. It literally turned me away not only form PvP, but the forums and game as well.

[Kako.1930]

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> So I have still been mostly playing power burst shatter since before HoT in pvp. Played burst shatter chrono till people complained and cussed too much, then I quite. After PoF came out, did the same thing with burst shatter mirage till I got tired of the people complaining too much in matches about mesmer being too OP. So, my question is, is it safe to play burst shatter mes in pvp again without being the bane of everyone's existence? It is just kinda depressing. Pre HoT I felt like I was good/competitive and people didn't complain as much (or any more than other classes), Post HoT the power creep really pushed burst shatter out of the meta so I both felt a lot worse/noncompetitive and people hated me much, much more. Post PoF, I was obviously a lot, lot better. However, people now seemed to not only hate me, but wanted to kill me as well. Pretty much I have been waiting 3 years now to be able to play burst shatter in PvP competitively in matches without getting cried or cussed at, like it was pre-HoT. Is this possible now, or should I continue to wait? This also scares me because I know that if mirage cloak gets nurfed, burst shatter may once again not only be noncompetitive, but people would still continue to complain about Mesmer in matches. Long story short, PvP in this game has blatently sucked kitten since HoT, and not just for one reason, or the reasons most of the community thinks.

>

> p.s. an example of this is before the last patch Jazz posting a burst shatter roaming video and people dissing him and the build on the forums even though he wasn't even using elusive mind. Many in this community in recent years have just been morally, and intellectually, so messed up. It literally turned me away not only form PvP, but the forums and game as well.

 

Just play what you like and ignore the crybabies. Seriously, I've had people complain about my profession being OP no matter what I play, and I've played a lot of off-meta builds too. Even if you play tempest, scrapper, condi ranger, minion necromancer, etc... there will always be some salty guy saying you're playing a cheesy or OP build lol.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> So I have still been mostly playing power burst shatter since before HoT in pvp. Played burst shatter chrono till people complained and cussed too much, then I quite. After PoF came out, did the same thing with burst shatter mirage till I got tired of the people complaining too much in matches about mesmer being too OP. So, my question is, is it safe to play burst shatter mes in pvp again without being the bane of everyone's existence? It is just kinda depressing. Pre HoT I felt like I was good/competitive and people didn't complain as much (or any more than other classes), Post HoT the power creep really pushed burst shatter out of the meta so I both felt a lot worse/noncompetitive and people hated me much, much more. Post PoF, I was obviously a lot, lot better. However, people now seemed to not only hate me, but wanted to kill me as well. Pretty much I have been waiting 3 years now to be able to play burst shatter in PvP competitively in matches without getting cried or cussed at, like it was pre-HoT. Is this possible now, or should I continue to wait? This also scares me because I know that if mirage cloak gets nurfed, burst shatter may once again not only be noncompetitive, but people would still continue to complain about Mesmer in matches. Long story short, PvP in this game has blatently sucked kitten since HoT, and not just for one reason, or the reasons most of the community thinks.

>

> p.s. an example of this is before the last patch Jazz posting a burst shatter roaming video and people dissing him and the build on the forums even though he wasn't even using elusive mind. Many in this community in recent years have just been morally, and intellectually, so messed up. It literally turned me away not only form PvP, but the forums and game as well.

 

We're so different. When i see people crying about a certain build, it fuels me to run it even more lol, not stop playing or use another build. When you frustrate a person, you know he's getting outplayed the f up.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

Mesmer was in a good spot early one with the power shatter then became Garbage in spvp till 2015 with HOT release and helseth discover the stupid bunker celestial build on chrono. Then it has some downtime for few months and became strong again with POF release. Then I got reworked and became god mode while already being strong before hands.

 

BUT even when it was garbage tier ... ppl still ran mesmer in team cause of how strong portal was in a fight. So even when it was bad as hell ... it has still an utility.

 

Now they keep nerfing mechanics that are too strong in term of mobility and survivability without changing it and / or rethinking it . So yeah ... there are two possibilites right now if they don't revamp mirage traits and mechanics (ambush skills)

* either it will be garbage tier cause only surviving in pvp and we will see it dissappear from pve

* either it will stay strong as it is and ppl will complain over and over

[Vague Memory.2817]

The changes haven't affected Mirage at all, instead the latest patch and previous ones have concentrated on core mes traits and skills that have gutted Chrono and not Mirage, this is despite Mirage being much stronger than Chrono. The devs are essentially forcing people to play Mirage because Chrono and power builds are now way too weak compared to condi meta and other classes. So the overall effect is expect more Mirages.

[Sampson.2403]

From my experience, condi and power mirage are still great builds. Condi will get you a higher rank, but power has a much more fun playstyle (for me atleast).

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"DrDivine.5378" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > I'm not sure I even remember Mesmer being underperforming since 2012.

> > > >

> > > > Then you haven't been paying attention very long

> > >

> > > 4.5 years of getting blown up by thieves. Yey.

> >

> > Pretty sure everyone that isn't a guardian has spent the past 5 years getting blown up by thieves.

> >

>

> Not exactly, there were a few professions that could reliably take on a thief outside of guardian. Warrior could shrug them off pretty well or it at least be a skill based matchup, elementalist and engis were also decent at taking them on.

>

> It all came down to if you got jumped by a thief, can you do anything? The answer for mesmer was hell no lol

 

Prior to daredevil, engi dominated thief. Then came daredevil, and all hell broke loose.

 

There used to be a rock paper scissors with classes that got disregarded when elite specs were introduced. Necro would beat engi (generally), thief would beat necro (generally), and engi would beat thief (generally).

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Am I the only 1 that thought elusive mind was sub par even before the nerf and that infinite horizon was far superior?