raykor.6723 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 PvP balance is split between WvW and sPvP. Even though both are PvP, ANET understands that they are different. But when it comes to PvE, they lump instanced group content (dungeons, fractals, and raids) along with casual open-world PvE. Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? I am primarily an open-world PvE player so I don’t have the breadth of experience to know whether or not this would be helpful. Perhaps instanced group content is so similar to open world content that this is unnecessary. It just seems that sometimes casual open world PvE players (which I suspect is the majority of players) get their classes re-balanced simply because their class is either too dominant or not desired as part of the current raiding meta when otherwise the class is perfectly fine for casual open world PvE gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 No. The only place in PvE where balance matter is in instanced content, to that end it doesn't matter if the effects of that trickle into Open World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 There are already plenty of complaints that ANet balance devs don't put balance passes out fast enough. Adding a 4th mode they have to consider _could_ add as much as 33% more work, adding to that perception. Since, as TexZero says, pretty much anything is viable in open world, that would be more work for the devs for little payoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runeblade.7514 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 The only thing I want for Open world PvE is [Payback](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Payback "Payback") given to all profession. Reduce Healing/Utility/Elite skill cool down by 10% for every kill(3 second cooldown so that mob farming don't get to spam their elite skills 100% of the time). This would be disabled only in Instanced content. I feel that Payback made a lot of the thief utility skills useful because it made me want to use them. After I use thieves guild, I can kill mobs to recharge it faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. Ok. Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > Ok. > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. @TC > @"raykor.6723" said: > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > Ok. > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > @TC > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. Making every build viable on every encounter is an impossibility, and frankly it's not a worthy goal to aim for. The better alternative is to make each class "meta" on different encounters. Solve the issue of diversity by having diverse content instead of diverse classes. So Boss A meta is Class A,B,C Boss B meta is Class D,E,F and so on. With some overlap of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"raykor.6723" said: > PvP balance is split between WvW and sPvP. Even though both are PvP, ANET understands that they are different. But when it comes to PvE, they lump instanced group content (dungeons, fractals, and raids) along with casual open-world PvE. > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > I am primarily an open-world PvE player so I don’t have the breadth of experience to know whether or not this would be helpful. Perhaps instanced group content is so similar to open world content that this is unnecessary. > > It just seems that sometimes casual open world PvE players (which I suspect is the majority of players) get their classes re-balanced simply because their class is either too dominant or not desired as part of the current raiding meta when otherwise the class is perfectly fine for casual open world PvE gameplay. I guess my answer will derive from your last sentence. Even after a balance pass the class is still perfectly fine for casual open world PvE gameplay. So any additional effort spent on splitting for casual open world PvE would be a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > > > @TC > > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. > > True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? All of the other MMOs also had new gear tiers and way similar mechanics between classes due to their trinity. Classes like thief and mesmer for example are designed with active avoidance in mind. It's what makes mesmer/chrono a natural choice for tank. Thiefs initiative makes it automatically difficult to balance the class for pve without overshooting or under performing the target benchmark. That's even before getting into the fact that trinity helps a ton in balancing classes for certain roles in metas. What you are complaining about is not class balance, but the fact that the "who is on top cycle" does not perform as drastic in GW2 as it does in most other MMOs (again this being rooted in the fact that the trinity is not forced). My real life examples were meant to show just how futile the constant screams for "we want balance" are. No other MMOs have achieved the amount of balance people are screaming for here (and their forums are just as full with people screaming balance) while other developers have potentially way more cash to throw at the issue (aka Blizzard) while having a way easier time too (trinity and way more traditional class design and game mechanics). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 What would be the point of balancing the game around Open World content with the majority of these players neither knowing nor caring about balance issues or the viability of any given builds? They already benfitted greatly from continuous Power Creep which made everything so much easier than it used to be at release. Not to mention that Open World content is already kept at a very easy level to allow players to do just that - TO NOT CARE about balance or any META. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > > > > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > > > > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > > > > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > > > > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > > > > > @TC > > > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > > > > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. > > > > True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? > > All of the other MMOs also had new gear tiers and way similar mechanics between classes due to their trinity. > > Classes like thief and mesmer for example are designed with active avoidance in mind. It's what makes mesmer/chrono a natural choice for tank. Thiefs initiative makes it automatically difficult to balance the class for pve without overshooting or under performing the target benchmark. That's even before getting into the fact that trinity helps a ton in balancing classes for certain roles in metas. > > What you are complaining about is not class balance, but the fact that the "who is on top cycle" does not perform as drastic in GW2 as it does in most other MMOs (again this being rooted in the fact that the trinity is not forced). > > My real life examples were meant to show just how futile the constant screams for "we want balance" are. No other MMOs have achieved the amount of balance people are screaming for here (and their forums are just as full with people screaming balance) while other developers have potentially way more cash to throw at the issue (aka Blizzard). GW2 has one of the strictest trinity systems I've ever seen in MMORPGs and that is because multiple roles got stacked on Chrono and Druid (tanking, healing, "controlling", supporting, etc.) . The trinity-aspects is pretty much forced onto people if they want to do instanced PvE. All other classes are mere dps because their support-capabilities don't matter at all (besides Warrior for banners). Their dps-potentials should be in a reasonable range with a reasonable gap which makes them all more or less viable - at least you should be able to use each class at every boss. Yet, we have a gap of 40ish% which is just not acceptable. That's even ignoring the horrible game design that Chrono and Druid will always be mandatory. There are literally no alternatives to them and that sucks. ...and I'm not scream for impossible changes. All I want is to be able to play the class I have fun with in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > > > > > > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > > > > > > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > > > > > > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > > > > > > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > > > > > > > @TC > > > > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > > > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > > > > > > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. > > > > > > True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? > > > > All of the other MMOs also had new gear tiers and way similar mechanics between classes due to their trinity. > > > > Classes like thief and mesmer for example are designed with active avoidance in mind. It's what makes mesmer/chrono a natural choice for tank. Thiefs initiative makes it automatically difficult to balance the class for pve without overshooting or under performing the target benchmark. That's even before getting into the fact that trinity helps a ton in balancing classes for certain roles in metas. > > > > What you are complaining about is not class balance, but the fact that the "who is on top cycle" does not perform as drastic in GW2 as it does in most other MMOs (again this being rooted in the fact that the trinity is not forced). > > > > My real life examples were meant to show just how futile the constant screams for "we want balance" are. No other MMOs have achieved the amount of balance people are screaming for here (and their forums are just as full with people screaming balance) while other developers have potentially way more cash to throw at the issue (aka Blizzard). > > GW2 has one of the strictest trinity systems I've ever seen in MMORPGs and that is because multiple roles got stacked on Chrono and Druid (tanking, healing, "controlling", supporting, etc.) . The trinity-aspects is pretty much forced onto people if they want to do instanced PvE. That's the result of adding trinity to a system and balance of classes which was never meant to be designed this way in the first place. Thanks for agreeing. All other traditional MMOs are designed with a trinity in mind from the start. Which makes it insanely easier to balance. Yet even there people have a cycle of which dps is best, which healer is best, which tank is best. This also only applies to raids, fractals can be completed perfectly fine without a druid or an alternative to chrono as boon support. The fact that people do not gravitate to other solutions does not mean they are not valid (especially the no druid CMs, which are very well possible). It simply means people prefer safety nets and stick to things which they are used to. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > All other classes are mere dps because their support-capabilities don't matter at all (besides Warrior for banners). Their dps-potentials should be in a reasonable range with a reasonable gap which makes them all more or less viable - at least you should be able to use each class at every boss. Yet, we have a gap of 40ish% which is just not acceptable. That's even ignoring the horrible game design that Chrono and Druid will always be mandatory. There are literally no alternatives to them and that sucks. > > ...and I'm not scream for impossible changes. All I want is to be able to play the class I have fun with in raids. I disagree, you are screaming for balance because you can't snowflake pick the class you want to play in a PUG or progress static setting (which will both always gravitate to the most efficient perceived combos due to different reasons). If you were playing with guild members you could pick any class you wanted and clear all content without any issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > > > > > > > > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > > > > > > > > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > > > > > > > > > @TC > > > > > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > > > > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > > > > > > > > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. > > > > > > > > True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? > > > > > > All of the other MMOs also had new gear tiers and way similar mechanics between classes due to their trinity. > > > > > > Classes like thief and mesmer for example are designed with active avoidance in mind. It's what makes mesmer/chrono a natural choice for tank. Thiefs initiative makes it automatically difficult to balance the class for pve without overshooting or under performing the target benchmark. That's even before getting into the fact that trinity helps a ton in balancing classes for certain roles in metas. > > > > > > What you are complaining about is not class balance, but the fact that the "who is on top cycle" does not perform as drastic in GW2 as it does in most other MMOs (again this being rooted in the fact that the trinity is not forced). > > > > > > My real life examples were meant to show just how futile the constant screams for "we want balance" are. No other MMOs have achieved the amount of balance people are screaming for here (and their forums are just as full with people screaming balance) while other developers have potentially way more cash to throw at the issue (aka Blizzard). > > > > GW2 has one of the strictest trinity systems I've ever seen in MMORPGs and that is because multiple roles got stacked on Chrono and Druid (tanking, healing, "controlling", supporting, etc.) . The trinity-aspects is pretty much forced onto people if they want to do instanced PvE. > > That's the result of adding trinity to a system and balance of classes which was never meant to be designed this way in the first place. Thanks for agreeing. All other traditional MMOs are designed with a trinity in mind from the start. Which makes it insanely easier to balance. Yet even there people have a cycle of which dps is best, which healer is best, which tank is best. > > This also only applies to raids, fractals can be completed perfectly fine without a druid or an alternative to chrono as boon support. The fact that people do not gravitate to other solutions does not mean they are not valid (especially the no druid CMs, which are very well possible). It simply means people prefer safety nets and stick to things which they are used to. There is no reasonable alternative to both Chrono and Druid, 'cause these two classes do so much far too well. Sure, you can take another healer than druid; that kinda works, but there simply is no alternative for Chrono. There's a reason why Mesmer in general is considered to be the most overpowered class in GW2 - especially Chaos-Chrono is a joke. It's so utterly broken it's not fun anymore. > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > All other classes are mere dps because their support-capabilities don't matter at all (besides Warrior for banners). Their dps-potentials should be in a reasonable range with a reasonable gap which makes them all more or less viable - at least you should be able to use each class at every boss. Yet, we have a gap of 40ish% which is just not acceptable. That's even ignoring the horrible game design that Chrono and Druid will always be mandatory. There are literally no alternatives to them and that sucks. > > > > ...and I'm not scream for impossible changes. All I want is to be able to play the class I have fun with in raids. > > I disagree, you are screaming for balance because you can't snowflake pick the class you want to play in a PUG or progress static setting (which will both always gravitate to the most efficient perceived combos due to different reasons). If you were playing with guild members you could pick any class you wanted and clear all content without any issues. In any other MMORPG, I can play whatever class I want to play if I perform reasonably well and if I'm able to carry my weight. That includes statics and PUGs. Traditional MMORPGs don't have another choice but to at least try to balance dps-potentials reasonably due to having a gear-treadmill. GW2 is certainly overusing the "no-gear-treadmill-excuse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 The longer I play, the more I wish we had classic trinity system from the start. With a little homogenizing between professions so we could actually play what we enjoy instead of what balance team dictates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 nope, I don´t think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbru.6014 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 What I want is for ANet to stop "balancing" PVE content based on PVP imbalance. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy nerf, necro Epidemic nerf, etc. and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > > > There's not really much to balance. It is better just to make diverse PVE content that lets some classes be good in some places than it is to try and balance the classes so they'll all be good in every place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then let us take the nerfhammer and obliterate Chrono and Druid, shall we? > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that once this is done, no other class will take their place. That's simply wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, groups will always gravitate to the most efficient class setup, this has been discussed over and over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Honestly, each class should at least be viable at every encounter without feeling useless. That's common sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes and while we are at it, let's solve world hunger, US wide obesity and the disparity between the top 1% and the remaining 99%. > > > > > > > > > > > > There has not been 1 MMO in the history of MMOs to achieve this kind of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > @TC > > > > > > > @"raykor.6723" said: > > > > > > > Should PvE balancing be split between organized group content and casual open-world PvE? > > > > > > > > > > > > No, open world doesn't need balance. It poses 0 challenge already, why balance for such a low skill level? Wasted developer resources. > > > > > > > > > > True, balancing is hard, but that's no excuse for no balance. Nearly every other MMORPG I've played over the last 15 years had better balance than GW2 does. In GW2, you have classes that are perpetually underpowered and "trash-tier" while also having classes that are perpetually the "king of the hill". That's just not acceptable; it's horrible game design. Your totally exaggerated "real-life-examples" don't make it better, do they? > > > > > > > > All of the other MMOs also had new gear tiers and way similar mechanics between classes due to their trinity. > > > > > > > > Classes like thief and mesmer for example are designed with active avoidance in mind. It's what makes mesmer/chrono a natural choice for tank. Thiefs initiative makes it automatically difficult to balance the class for pve without overshooting or under performing the target benchmark. That's even before getting into the fact that trinity helps a ton in balancing classes for certain roles in metas. > > > > > > > > What you are complaining about is not class balance, but the fact that the "who is on top cycle" does not perform as drastic in GW2 as it does in most other MMOs (again this being rooted in the fact that the trinity is not forced). > > > > > > > > My real life examples were meant to show just how futile the constant screams for "we want balance" are. No other MMOs have achieved the amount of balance people are screaming for here (and their forums are just as full with people screaming balance) while other developers have potentially way more cash to throw at the issue (aka Blizzard). > > > > > > GW2 has one of the strictest trinity systems I've ever seen in MMORPGs and that is because multiple roles got stacked on Chrono and Druid (tanking, healing, "controlling", supporting, etc.) . The trinity-aspects is pretty much forced onto people if they want to do instanced PvE. > > > > That's the result of adding trinity to a system and balance of classes which was never meant to be designed this way in the first place. Thanks for agreeing. All other traditional MMOs are designed with a trinity in mind from the start. Which makes it insanely easier to balance. Yet even there people have a cycle of which dps is best, which healer is best, which tank is best. > > > > This also only applies to raids, fractals can be completed perfectly fine without a druid or an alternative to chrono as boon support. The fact that people do not gravitate to other solutions does not mean they are not valid (especially the no druid CMs, which are very well possible). It simply means people prefer safety nets and stick to things which they are used to. > > There is no reasonable alternative to both Chrono and Druid, 'cause these two classes do so much far too well. Sure, you can take another healer than druid; that kinda works, but there simply is no alternative for Chrono. There's a reason why Mesmer in general is considered to be the most overpowered class in GW2 - especially Chaos-Chrono is a joke. It's so utterly broken it's not fun anymore. You missunderstand, T4 and CMs can be done without a healer. Druid is not even the best healer around, a healing tempest will outperform a druid in fractals without issue. Substitute druid for healing revenant, chrono for firebrand and you have 2 supports which will clear all T4 and CM content without issue. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > All other classes are mere dps because their support-capabilities don't matter at all (besides Warrior for banners). Their dps-potentials should be in a reasonable range with a reasonable gap which makes them all more or less viable - at least you should be able to use each class at every boss. Yet, we have a gap of 40ish% which is just not acceptable. That's even ignoring the horrible game design that Chrono and Druid will always be mandatory. There are literally no alternatives to them and that sucks. > > > > > > ...and I'm not scream for impossible changes. All I want is to be able to play the class I have fun with in raids. > > > > I disagree, you are screaming for balance because you can't snowflake pick the class you want to play in a PUG or progress static setting (which will both always gravitate to the most efficient perceived combos due to different reasons). If you were playing with guild members you could pick any class you wanted and clear all content without any issues. > > In any other MMORPG, I can play whatever class I want to play if I perform reasonably well and if I'm able to carry my weight. That includes statics and PUGs. Traditional MMORPGs don't have another choice but to at least try to balance dps-potentials reasonably due to having a gear-treadmill. GW2 is certainly overusing the "no-gear-treadmill-excuse". > > Not in a similar competitive environment under similar circumstances. Try playing a warrior tank in WoW when it's last spot behind Druid, Paladin and Death Knight. Guess how many Mythic raids are going to take you? Same goes for dps classes. Simple fact is this: the most difficult GW2 content is doable without issue on non meta classes and setups, often without to much added effort even. You want balance where none can be had: player perception and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 The more they split balancing the more work they create for themselves. Ideally as few skills/traits as possible will be split between modes. I still miss the balancing the first 3 years, where it was balanced after PVP, the balancing just went "bleeh" with HOT adding elite spez, all the new power creep, and they started balancing after PVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 PvE needs to be balanced and PvP should never butt in for the sake of their balance, if a skill works perfectly in PvE but doesn't in PvP then keep that change in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Open world is at the bottom of the list in terms of "balancing" priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinful.2165 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 > @"runeblade.7514" said: > The only thing I want for Open world PvE is [Payback](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Payback "Payback") given to all profession. > > Reduce Healing/Utility/Elite skill cool down by 10% for every kill(3 second cooldown so that mob farming don't get to spam their elite skills 100% of the time). This would be disabled only in Instanced content. > > I feel that Payback made a lot of the thief utility skills useful because it made me want to use them. After I use thieves guild, I can kill mobs to recharge it faster. This would make a great sigil imo. > @"Jimbru.6014" said: > What I want is for ANet to stop "balancing" PVE content based on PVP imbalance. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy nerf, necro Epidemic nerf, etc. and so forth. You should probably know that epidemic was nerfed because it trivializes raid content. It had nothing to do with PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 > @"Jimbru.6014" said: > What I want is for ANet to stop "balancing" PVE content based on PVP imbalance. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy nerf, necro Epidemic nerf, etc. and so forth. Also constant nerfs to ranger pets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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