Do you think defensive attributes are (generally) underpowered in PvE?

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > Even if you ignore everything else ... while doing LS3 one of the bosses had 1.5 million HP. Between the two extremes of my characters' builds that will take between 3 minutes and 1 hour to finish that fight. No prize for guessing which end I prefer.

>

> Right, and that, precisely, is why there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Offensive builds make too much of a difference in offense while defensive builds don't make enough of a difference in defense.

 

Not quite ... no matter how how you crank up the effectiveness of defensive stats the times I mentioned won't change

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > Even if you ignore everything else ... while doing LS3 one of the bosses had 1.5 million HP. Between the two extremes of my characters' builds that will take between 3 minutes and 1 hour to finish that fight. No prize for guessing which end I prefer.

> >

> > Right, and that, precisely, is why there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Offensive builds make too much of a difference in offense while defensive builds don't make enough of a difference in defense.

>

> Not quite ... no matter how how you crank up the effectiveness of defensive stats the times I mentioned won't change

 

LOL. We're talking about attribute balance more generally at this point. It most certainly is possible to rebalance the attributes to reduce the gap between the floor and ceiling when it comes to offense, and it's exactly what needs to be done.

[joneirikb.7506]

In many ways, I think the entire system would work better without stats. And just leave the gameplay to the actual action-combat aspect. Just leaving the sigils and runes as upgrades for build purposes. This would basically leave all players with 1000 in the base stats, and not much else, save some trait bonuses, and rune stats. Alternatively just force in celestial stats as basis.

 

But, since they've designed themselves into a corner with the entire stats system, there likely isn't much they can do about it at this stage. Any big changes, reworks, or complete re-designs would likely cause too much angry users (because humans by nature dislike changes they don't ask for, and only 50% of the changes they ask for).

 

---

 

If we where to redesign the stats, I'd probably bunch together 1 major and 1 minor stats, instead of the current 3/4 stat systems. Something like:

 

* Mighty: +X Power, +X/2 Toughness

* Malign: +X Condi, +X/2 Vitality

 

One main offensive stat, and one minor defensive stat. Make player mix these "duo" stats as they like, to build in offense and defense into the same build, and inherent weaknesses depending on what you build for. For example you could build a pure power damage, but since you'd have so much toughness, but little vitality/healpow, you'd be weak to condi damage.

 

This wouldn't make defensive stats any "better" but it would at least give us a painless way to take them (as we get them for free with the offensive stats).

[Critical Lag.9075]

They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

[Rauderi.8706]

Toughness is more or less fine. It's PvE enemy damage that needs to be controlled. Not every class has access to every blind/block/aegis under the sun, and even then, champion-level mobs ignore half the tricks one uses to stay alive *while* churning out more damage.

 

Vitality is just silly as it exists now. It should be adding to incoming heals, including self-heals.

Healing Power is also laughably weak. It takes an absurd amount of effort to squeak out extra utility from it. We'd been saying for a while that HealPow should also add to boon duration, but we got Concentration instead...

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

I believe they are good as is.

 

One thing is very important in this game: Moving. To defend ourselves, the key is the vitality and toughness (and healing power) partially only. The main is: Moving a lot and dodging timely.

 

Based on what I see around me during events in PvE, I have the impression - I may be wrong - that many players are:

- Too static: I can see how many just remain inside the zone/stream of damages.

- Not staying at the best position around foes, like for example, staying in main sight line of a boss instead of going aside or behind it.

 

Due to that, they get big amount of damages and of course, our defensive attributes/skills/core specializations are not supposed to protect that much.

 

What combines with that is - again this is my impression based on some talks - that many seem not to understand really well that core specialization and skills are supposed to "work together" to give a certain result and that if we achieve to manage that properly, the outcome is by far more powerful, both in term of damages and protection. Not to forget to chose the stats of armor and weapons according to those, for a global optimized result.

 

I would say that it is more a matter of improving self set up and equipment via experience. Myself - very slow learner - I have needed loooong time until I understood it properly and started to survive better and longer in fights. Talks with friends were good to help me understand how to accord skills, attributes and stats altogether. Loads of dying in events made me learn to move more and faster. :3

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

>

> If we where to redesign the stats, I'd probably bunch together 1 major and 1 minor stats, instead of the current 3/4 stat systems. Something like:

>

> * Mighty: +X Power, +X/2 Toughness

> * Malign: +X Condi, +X/2 Vitality

>

> One main offensive stat, and one minor defensive stat. Make player mix these "duo" stats as they like, to build in offense and defense into the same build, and inherent weaknesses depending on what you build for. For example you could build a pure power damage, but since you'd have so much toughness, but little vitality/healpow, you'd be weak to condi damage.

>

> This wouldn't make defensive stats any "better" but it would at least give us a painless way to take them (as we get them for free with the offensive stats).

 

This makes more sense to me than other ideas that have been expressed. I'd support this.

 

> In many ways, I think the entire system would work better without stats. And just leave the gameplay to the actual action-combat aspect. Just leaving the sigils and runes as upgrades for build purposes. This would basically leave all players with 1000 in the base stats, and not much else, save some trait bonuses, and rune stats. Alternatively just force in celestial stats as basis.

 

This would be fine, also.

 

...but...

 

> But, since they've designed themselves into a corner with the entire stats system, there likely isn't much they can do about it at this stage. Any big changes, reworks, or complete re-designs would likely cause too much angry users (because humans by nature dislike changes they don't ask for, and only 50% of the changes they ask for).

 

This means neither idea, nor the other ideas I find unpalatable which have been expressed, are likely to happen. ANet does not want the plethora of posts demanding they compensate players for all of the effort they put into their gear which would now be "wasted."

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> This wouldn't make defensive stats any "better" but it would at least give us a painless way to take them (as we get them for free with the offensive stats).

 

Check out the PVP Amulets:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build

 

Most of those that are used in builds have some minor defensive stats. For example, no build uses Berserker Amulet, offensive builds use Marauder instead.

That's mostly because in PVP defensive stats are very useful, unlike PVE.

[derd.6413]

It's less "they're UP" and more "outshined by active defense like block and invuln"

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

 

You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

[Critical Lag.9075]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

>

> You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

 

I didn't even try, I thought it was obvious that this is my opinion since it's my post but I guess it needs to be spelled out for some people.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

> >

> > You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

>

> I didn't even try, I thought it was obvious that this is my opinion since it's my post but I guess it needs to be spelled out for some people.

 

By saying "they should never be relevant in PvE", you are stating that your opinion is that they should never be relevant for anyone in PvE because _you_ aren't interested in them.

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > > They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

> > >

> > > You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

> >

> > I didn't even try, I thought it was obvious that this is my opinion since it's my post but I guess it needs to be spelled out for some people.

>

> By saying "they should never be relevant in PvE", you are stating that your opinion is that they should never be relevant for anyone in PvE because _you_ aren't interested in them.

 

Or because that's how the game is and has always been and is one of the main reason people actually play it.

Having already overpowered stats become more powerful would be ridiculous.

 

What if Power stat let us kill monsters without attacking them?

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > > > They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

> > > >

> > > > You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

> > >

> > > I didn't even try, I thought it was obvious that this is my opinion since it's my post but I guess it needs to be spelled out for some people.

> >

> > By saying "they should never be relevant in PvE", you are stating that your opinion is that they should never be relevant for anyone in PvE because _you_ aren't interested in them.

>

> Or because that's how the game is and has always been and is one of the main reason people actually play it.

> Having already overpowered stats become more powerful would be ridiculous.

>

> What if Power stat let us kill monsters without attacking them?

 

This response makes so little sense I don't even know how to rebut it. Do you even understand what's being discussed here?

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Haishao.6851" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > > > @"Critical Lag.9075" said:

> > > > > > They should never be relevant in PVE. Active defenses make for much more fun combat than facetanking with defensive stats.

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't really get to mandate that for other players.

> > > >

> > > > I didn't even try, I thought it was obvious that this is my opinion since it's my post but I guess it needs to be spelled out for some people.

> > >

> > > By saying "they should never be relevant in PvE", you are stating that your opinion is that they should never be relevant for anyone in PvE because _you_ aren't interested in them.

> >

> > Or because that's how the game is and has always been and is one of the main reason people actually play it.

> > Having already overpowered stats become more powerful would be ridiculous.

> >

> > What if Power stat let us kill monsters without attacking them?

>

> This response makes so little sense I don't even know how to rebut it. Do you even understand what's being discussed here?

 

That defensive stats should allow you to soak damage.

[Imperadordf.2687]

"I won the fight because I used a projectile finisher in a smoke field to blind my enemy."

"I won the fight because me tank, me has much toughness."

 

I'll leave this one to you.

 

To add something else, the game is already too easy. You can play with what you want. You can go full Minstrel and solo a champ, you can do that on full Berserker too. This game is based on active combat and relying on stats is lazy design.

 

You don't need defensive stats in a game where you have many active defenses. If you can't survive with active defenses you can mix some defensive stats in and you're done. It's fine and -not trying to be rude- these complaints are based on nothing.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> You don't need defensive stats in a game where you have many active defenses.

 

That makes about as much sense as saying you don't need offensive stats in a game where you have so many attack skills.

 

The only reason you don't need defensive stats is because active defense is designed as fixed power with no stat input, while offense is designed as variable-power with input from multiple stats. But, you know, that's the problem, why some stats are so much more valuable than others.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Arzurag.7506" said:

> > Damage needs to be nerfed across the board. If you buff durability through stats now, bunker builds are going to be a thing again.

>

> yeah, my feeling is the same. However, I think the "damage problem" is mostly a product of two things:

>

> **1.) Condition damage is overtuned, period. They really mucked things up trying to balance it and continue to balance it using a bad paradigm where they're trying to make them work like EQ DoTs, which makes no sense in GW2 . Condi should be on short durations and deal moderate damage - a single application of any condition should, in total, deal less than direct damage on low armor targets, and more than direct damage on high armor targets. There's really no bigger example of how the balance team doesn't know what they're doing. In addition to just resulting in too much damage being thrown around, this has the effect of making Toughness less useful than it otherwise would be, since conditions ignore armor.**

>

> 2.) Offensive boons are both more numerous and easier to stack than defensive boons. They've overloaded skills and traits to where offensive boon sharing is excessive. It's trivially easy to maintain full stacks of might and 100% fury and alacrity uptime, which is goofy and needs to be nerfed (starting with Chrono and Druid). Additionally, offensive boons play off of your attributes more than defensive ones do. Protection tends to have less uptime and doesn't reduce incoming condition damage, making Vitality and Toughness both less useful. Meanwhile, both the regeneration boon and healing power as an attribute are undertuned - I think they need to rework Regen to stack intensity rather than duration.

 

We had that. It was called the Zerker meta and ran for three years straight where literally every single class exclusively rank Berserker's gear.

 

Unless you're talking about PvP in which case you're even more wrong. In SPvP the only classes where a majority of them will run condition are Mesmer and Necros. Even then there's still a healthy split of Mesmers running Power Chrono and Power Mirage and necros running Power Reaper. In platinum maybe 30% of thieves are running condi Daredevil.

 

Everyone else almost exclusively uses Power Damage. 3/6 classes primarily running conditions (And even that is a stretch) is hardly a meta overflowing with condi damage.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > You don't need defensive stats in a game where you have many active defenses.

>

> That makes about as much sense as saying you don't need offensive stats in a game where you have so many attack skills.

 

Terrible analogy. And my point stands still. Who needs Toughness or Vitality when you can just evade, block, invuln, LoS, absorb the incoming damage?

 

> The only reason you don't need defensive stats is because active defense is designed as fixed power with no stat input, while offense is designed as variable-power with input from multiple stats. But, you know, that's the problem, why some stats are so much more valuable than others.

 

Nope. This is not a problem. This means Guild Wars 2 actually rewards active gameplay and skill. This is not your average MMO with "I have better items so I win.". This game is based around **active** gameplay. And offensive stats should be more valuable in a game where active defenses are valued more than passive ones.

 

Passive = Lazy, Boring, Uninteresting

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Nope. This is not a problem. This means Guild Wars 2 actually rewards active gameplay and skill. This is not your average MMO with "I have better items so I win.". This game is based around **active** gameplay. And offensive stats should be more valuable in a game where active defenses are valued more than passive ones.

>

> Passive = Lazy, Boring, Uninteresting

 

That makes zero sense. "I have better items so I win" is absolutely in effect, it's just that it only applies to certain aspects of gameplay (DPS, mostly), so there is a strong preference for items that boost that aspect of play. If you hit someone in the face with a sword, the effectiveness is based not just on player skill in the moment (timing, positioning, rotations), but on build and particularly on stat selection. However, if someone tries to hit you in the face with a sword and you dodge, it's solely based on player skill.

 

I'm not suggesting that the passive effects of defensive stats needs to be boosted, so much as the mechanics need to be changed at a fundamental level so that the effectiveness of all types of active play are determined roughly equally by both player skill and build. They could simply remove stats altogether to get to that point (but that would break a lot of things, like the mechanical benefit of Legendaries), or they could rework stats so they affect all types of active gameplay similarly. That means cutting down on stats needed for effective power or condi damage, and increasing the impact of stats on mechanics like CC, cleanses, evades, and blocks. The best way to do that, IMO, is to return to a GW1-style attribute system rather than a typical MMO or RPG attribute system.

 

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > Nope. This is not a problem. This means Guild Wars 2 actually rewards active gameplay and skill. This is not your average MMO with "I have better items so I win.". This game is based around **active** gameplay. And offensive stats should be more valuable in a game where active defenses are valued more than passive ones.

> >

> > Passive = Lazy, Boring, Uninteresting

>

> That makes zero sense. "I have better items so I win" is absolutely in effect, it's just that it only applies to certain aspects of gameplay (DPS, mostly), so there is a strong preference for items that boost that aspect of play.

 

And I don't see any issues with it actually. Experienced or skilled people tend to get hit fewer, so they choose to go glassier. Less skilled players go a bit tankier and so on. At the end of the day, everyone gets their loot and gold. Everyone is happy.

 

>If you hit someone in the face with a sword, the effectiveness is based not just on player skill in the moment (timing, positioning, rotations), but on build and particularly on stat selection. However, if someone tries to hit you in the face with a sword and you dodge, it's solely based on player skill.

 

Ok. I get you now. But you're missing something there. There is no alternative to outgoing damage so you need stats for it. Unequip your items and you'll do much fewer damage. But it isn't like that for defenses. Even if you don't have toughness or vitality, you have your blinds, invulnerablities, blocks, evades and stuff.

 

> I'm not suggesting that the passive effects of defensive stats needs to be boosted, so much as the mechanics need to be changed at a fundamental level so that the effectiveness of all types of active play are determined roughly equally by both player skill and build. They could simply remove stats altogether to get to that point (but that would break a lot of things, like the mechanical benefit of Legendaries), or they could rework stats so they affect all types of active gameplay similarly. That means cutting down on stats needed for effective power or condi damage, and increasing the impact of stats on mechanics like CC, cleanses, evades, and blocks. The best way to do that, IMO, is to return to a GW1-style attribute system rather than a typical MMO or RPG attribute system.

 

Both of these attribute systems are typical in RPGs. That aside, I don't think we're going to see the current system changing. It's too much work for almost nothing. And I think it's fine as it is right now.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"perilisk.1874" said:

> >If you hit someone in the face with a sword, the effectiveness is based not just on player skill in the moment (timing, positioning, rotations), but on build and particularly on stat selection. However, if someone tries to hit you in the face with a sword and you dodge, it's solely based on player skill.

>

> Ok. I get you now. But you're missing something there. There is no alternative to outgoing damage so you need stats for it. Unequip your items and you'll do much fewer damage. But it isn't like that for defenses. Even if you don't have toughness or vitality, you have your blinds, invulnerablities, blocks, evades and stuff.

>

> > I'm not suggesting that the passive effects of defensive stats needs to be boosted, so much as the mechanics need to be changed at a fundamental level so that the effectiveness of all types of active play are determined roughly equally by both player skill and build. They could simply remove stats altogether to get to that point (but that would break a lot of things, like the mechanical benefit of Legendaries), or they could rework stats so they affect all types of active gameplay similarly. That means cutting down on stats needed for effective power or condi damage, and increasing the impact of stats on mechanics like CC, cleanses, evades, and blocks. The best way to do that, IMO, is to return to a GW1-style attribute system rather than a typical MMO or RPG attribute system.

>

> Both of these attribute systems are typical in RPGs. That aside, I don't think we're going to see the current system changing. It's too much work for almost nothing. And I think it's fine as it is right now.

 

This too could be changed. By moving offensive stats over to boons, and making good play reward you with getting more and better boon duration (rotations, build, skill etc), they could replace offensive stats, instead of just multiply their advantage as they do now.

 

It would (naturally) require some adjusting of the entire game, but removing (or just severely reducing) stats could be a viable option from a mechanical perspective. The problem lies more in the direction of time/effort/cost put into it, and the effect it would have on gamers, a *lot* of players likes stats, even if they don't know how to get the best out of it, and would complain loudly if it was removed.

 

Basically, even if ANet for example reduced all stat gain by 90%, but increased our base stats by 50%, and then did the same or even more to all enemies in the game, so effectively the game got 25% easier from a stat ration between monsters and players. Players would still complain that they got "nerfed". Because most players only see what they personally lost, not what everyone else (monsters, bosses, other players) lost as well.

 

 

 

 

[Gendou.9620]

I think each stat should have a diminishing effect to it, like having lots of power means your endurance recharges slower(punishing you for going all in), or having high healing power reduces your condi dmg. I always thought it was weird that glass cannons were never punished, they can always dodge right? Oh can't dodge, then heal them more, oh less healing received.... well this is a problem.. Here is a list of some ideas!

 

Power--->Decreases endurance recharge + but increases strength

Precision--->Decreases Toughness + but improved crit chance

Ferocity---> Decreased healing received + improved crit dmg

Condition Damage--->Decreases Vitality + but increases condition dmg

Vitality--->Decreases Condition duration + but increases health

Toughness--->Decreases healing power + but increases tankyness

Healing power---> Decreases Condition dmg + but increased healing

Concentration---> Decreased power + but improved boon duration

Expertise--> Decreased crit chance and crit dmg + but improve condi duration

 

When I say decreased I mean it even lowers your base stats, I'm not sure by how much, but just use your imagination that it is a noticeable effect. I obviously didnt change the positive parts of each stat, but i just listed them to point out the effects.

 

It is a rough list but I think it could prove interesting. If you go glass cannon berserker gear, you are going to receive less healing, have less armor, and decreased endurance recharge. I mean lets be real here a berserker isnt going to having much armor or dodging much-- he just wants to fight through the pain!

But lets say you go Soldier gear, You would be a bit more beefy but have power! You would be dodging a little less, have less condi dmg, and couldnt really do much healing.

 

Condition dmg dealer? Lets say you went sinister! You would have high power, less endurance recharge, less vitality, and less toughness. Sounds tough so maybe you want to be a different stat set, maybe dire stats to go more bunker? You would have less vitality, but the build has vitality to counter that, but having so much vitality will cut your long term condition durations, and toughness will decrease the healing you use, so you cant be a super healing bunker.

 

The point here is there are certain stat combos that would be beneficial to use in counteracting the diminishing effects. Notice how picking so many primary dmg dealing stats can have a huge detriment to even dodging! With power you are going to be dodging less, so having some vitality or toughness could counteract that effect. Some may argue that condi dmg would replace this type of effect, but there are some major downsides to having condi as well, especially for classes with already low hp.

 

The point to punishing I think would allow for a more diverse skill set or weapon usage. Because there are plenty of utility skills and weapon skills to help with dodging or helping in some way, you should need to rely on them as well.

 

Any thoughts I this?