Vayne.8563 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said: > > > > The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war' > > > > I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack' > > > > > > > > Also, just... I dunno. > > > > The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is > > > > I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve > > > > I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face > > > > > > Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story. > > > > It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons. > > Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then. This is a very interesting response. Nothing I said here is defending Anet, because no one is attacking Anet. I find it interesting that you're so absolutely focused on the fact that I have an opinion that's different than yours, that you're willing to attribute it to white-knighting instead of actually listening to what's being said. The people in my guild have been discussing the fact that killing the elder dragons is a bad thing for at least a year and a half. The theory has been floating around Tyria since unbound magic began to show up. Those paying attention to side stories and particularly Season 3 of the living world wouldn't have seen this as a swerve at all. It's very hard to be white knighting if you're not defending against an attack, no matter what you might think of my other posts. This is one of the strangest posts calling me a white knight I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: _for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions._ > > So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is _exactly_ what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse. > > So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis. > > To additional dialogues of our campanions at end, really indicates that this will be the new focus. Particularly I think it will be more interesting than going directly try solve Kralkatorrik problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > @"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said: > > > > > The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war' > > > > > I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack' > > > > > > > > > > Also, just... I dunno. > > > > > The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is > > > > > I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve > > > > > I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face > > > > > > > > Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story. > > > > > > It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons. > > > > Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then. > > This is a very interesting response. Nothing I said here is defending Anet, because no one is attacking Anet. I find it interesting that you're so absolutely focused on the fact that I have an opinion that's different than yours, that you're willing to attribute it to white-knighting instead of actually listening to what's being said. > > The people in my guild have been discussing the fact that killing the elder dragons is a bad thing for at least a year and a half. The theory has been floating around Tyria since unbound magic began to show up. Those paying attention to side stories and particularly Season 3 of the living world wouldn't have seen this as a swerve at all. It's very hard to be white knighting if you're not defending against an attack, no matter what you might think of my other posts. > > This is one of the strangest posts calling me a white knight I've ever seen. Actually it was suggested much further back then Season 3. I think it was Season 2, going back to Omadd’s Machibe Cinematic, so this isn’t coming out of left field at all. One book in the Durmond Priory library said this during season 2: “Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion. The Apostate says one thing that is especially troubling... "Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void." It's probably a metaphor.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 You can also ask if Joko was so well informed, why didn´t he interfere and stop the killing of Mordremoth? He surely realized that big stuff is going on when the other major player in the reanimation business, Zhaitan, bit the dust. With what that book in the priory says you can even assume that someone as learned as Joko would have already known that even before Zhaitan died, but he probably did welcome the chance to see him go down because one missing dragon is not that severe as consequence a it seems. Even if you factor in that his immortality would probably have enabled him to survive as long as an ED would not have hunted him down in person, his kingdom would have been lost. From all accounts it seems that ED are unwilling to cooperate or think in human patterns because they do not accept anything less than total domination and destruction, so he could have not talked his way out. Maybe someone at Anet in S2 realized how boring it would be to just do 6 times the same and hunt down dragons, probably someone with experience in dragon stories from Dragonlance ;) . Regarding the question of the OP, I do not feel bad. You are constantly fed with wishy washy last minute information from a teenager, your fighting comrades range from former environmental terrorists over AWOL soldiers up to sister murderers who come out with crucial information only after things go down rapidly. The commander is just a battleship swimming around in an ocean of half truths, megalomaniac desire and blatant lies, blindly firing some volleys at this or that island or monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? What? You're somehow saying that we're magically forgetting that he was weakened before we killed him, we've been doing that since we got to Orr by stopping the Eyes and Mouths. That doesn't change the fact that WE kill him, same with Mordremoth and the Pact remnants fighting his physical form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. > > So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? > > What? We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes. 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Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > > > > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > > > > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. > > > > So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? > > > > What? > > We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes. But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVp__KIfKE At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > > > > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > > > > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > > > > > > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > > > > > > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. > > > > > > So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? > > > > > > What? > > > > We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes. > > But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVp__KIfKE > > At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough. Sure, but we didn't fire that barrage, that's the point. We finish him off after. I didn't fire anything to get it hurt enough to have to land. The video backs me up. We didn't do the most damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then. Really? Why exactly we stopped Balthazar to kill 2 elder dragons in LW3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 According to MO the entire story was already outlined before they even started working on GW2, and they've been following that outline ever since...so I highly doubt if anything we've done is a curve thrown in to the story, it's all been pre-planned(otherwise some people would not have been able to guess the direction the story was going in if it was so transparent and malleable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then. > > Really? Why exactly we stopped Balthazar to kill 2 elder dragons in LW3? > > That's exactly the "then" mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > > > > > > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > > > > > > > > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > > > > > > > > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. > > > > > > > > So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes. > > > > But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVp__KIfKE > > > > At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough. > > Sure, but we didn't fire that barrage, that's the point. We finish him off after. I didn't fire anything to get it hurt enough to have to land. The video backs me up. We didn't do the most damage. Sigh, your backwards logic is astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 Wow, this really took off. Sorry I haven't been replying, I haven't had time to do it properly until now. So this is probably going to be long. Firstly good to know I'm not the only one who has thought about this, and really interesting to see all the different interpretations. (I've put quotes and responses in the order I think makes most sense, rather than the other they appeared in the topic, for hopefully easier reading.) > @"Edelweiss.4261" said: > I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency? > If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity? I suppose it depends on how you engage with the story. If you have that total separation of thinking of it strictly as a game where you have no choice and no control over what happens then the events probably don't affect you. But I don't do that. Admittedly it's odd for me because I always insist that my characters are not me - they don't look like me and they don't act like me, they do a lot of things I'd never do (like kill people) but when it comes to the story I still like to 'own' their decisions, even if I'm not offered a choice. In my head by continuing to play the game I am making that choice. I suppose it's kind of exploring a hypothetical - if I did do this, what would happen? What would the outcome be? And also what kind of person would make that decision and how would it impact them? Which means I'm exploring their feelings through my own while playing. > @"Overlord RainyDay.2084" said: > It wasn't really mentioned during season 1, since it seems like the effects of Zhaitan's death were delayed. We were a little busy during S2 and HoT to see any effects if they had manifested by then, so it may have seemed a little out of left field for this plot point to crop up in season 3. I guess just losing one isn't that bad, it's when 1/3 of the dragons are gone that things really go crazy. The earliest impact of Zhaitan's death I remember was Mordremoth collecting the bodies of the dead and turning them into his minions, which I think first became apparent at the start of HoT. Mordremoth's powers are plant & mind magic so he wouldn't normally have been able to do that, it's an ability he got from Zhaitan. But because the Pact rushed their assault on Mordremoth (compared to Zhaitan) we didn't know that much about his abilities. We didn't even realise until after trekking all across the jungle trying to find him that he didn't have a single self-contained body - all those vines spread across Tyria _are_ Mordremoth - and therefore we couldn't kill him that easily and had to go after his mind instead. (Yes he dies when he impales his head on a spike at the end of the Dragon's Stand meta-event, but if I understood correctly the canon order of events is that happens at the same time as the final story mission - so the Pact are outside distracting him with a physical assault on a vulnerable part of his body and a smaller team is attacking his mind.) So it wasn't immediately obvious that he'd gotten the death magic abilities from Zhaitan. It was only after we began seeing other examples of the same thing that the pattern became clear. > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: _for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions._ > > So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is _exactly_ what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse. > > So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis. That's interesting, and kind of reassuring, that they expected us to question our characters actions. I think with me it helps that killing the dragons never really felt right to me. In real life I'm very much a pacifist - I'd rather find a compromise than resort to killing people I disagree with. And also I _like_ dragons. Even dragons which are primal forces of nature with all the destructive power that entails. Admittedly killing Zhaitan didn't bother me much, I think because I don't like undead, but killing the Shadow of the Dragon at the end of Season 2 definitely felt wrong - it's a unique magical creature (and it turned out basically a sylvari) - and I destroyed it. But then what else could we do? It was there to kill us and we were cornered. So I was already in this mindset before being confronted with it in-game, and that made me more susceptible to it. Like @"castlemanic.3198" said (in a spoiler tag for post length): > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > > @"Edelweiss.4261" said: > > I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency? > > If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity? > > The commander is written in such a way that it's easy for players to step into the mold of the commander. While we didn't have agency with regards to killing the elder dragons, the mold of the commander is the destroyer of dragons and part of that mold is dealing with the consequences of the commander's actions. If you're not stepping into that mold willingly, it's unlikely that Joko's words would have any impact on you as a player. > Because the words SHOULD make the commander feel bad, feel that knife twisting when Joko blames the commander for something that was not entirely the commander's decision (the pact united as a whole). If you decide to step into the mold of the commander, the commander's feelings become YOUR feelings, which, again, if you don't willingly step into that mold, it won't have that narrative effect on you. And I think a major theme of the commander is resilience. Even in the face of nearly driving the world to calamity, the commander still takes up the mantle of hero and fights to protect everyone, and undo the mistakes or at least as much course correction as possible. > > Essentially, the commander made this mess, the commander is the only one who can fix it. I also agree with the people saying it's not a sudden change of direction. The idea that the dragons are an integral part of Tyria has been in the lore pretty much as long as the dragons have with the implied (and later confirmed) cycle of their rising, consuming magic, going to sleep and releasing magic. Alongside that have been characters suggesting it's a bad idea to kill them. It's just that no one really paid much attention to that theory because there were no obvious consequences until after it happened and a lot of reasons to try it (like we'd all die otherwise.) Admittedly the negative consequences of them dying have only been revealed gradually and it wasn't immediately clear they were connected, but I'm surprised that's seen as a negative considering one of the most common complaints I see about this game is that all the stories are short, simple and self-contained and once an arc is done it's dropped or forgotten for the next thing. Now we find there's been this long, subtly building plotline and somehow that's a bad thing? Or is the problem that it was too subtle and some people missed the clues until it was explained by characters in the story? And some people even missed that considering we were told directly by Taimi at the start of Season 3 that killing another elder dragon would destroy the world but at the end of the story some people were questioning why we didn't side with Balthazar and help him kill them - then acted like us saving them came out of nowhere with no explanation. (I do sometimes wonder how many of these are the same people make a point of never reading or listening to any dialogue and keep requesting ways to skip anything except combat even on the first play-through. But if you don't care enough to listen why would you care whether it makes sense?) IMO it's also a more interesting story. Regardless of the fact that I like dragons the GW2 dragons never made for very interesting enemies because they're largely faceless, neutral, antagonists. They're evil and dangerous in the sense that they're destroying everything around them but there's very little sense of motive and no personality behind it. If they were people instead of gigantic elemental style dragons they'd be like the worst bad guys from 80's cartoons - evil for the sake of being evil so the good guys are unequivocally right in stopping them. Trying to find a way to stop them without killing them, whilst trying to stop anyone else killing them, is a far more complex, novel and interesting plot and I'm much more interested in seeing where it will lead and what will happen along the way than when it seemed like the future of this game was simply 'which dragon will we kill next'? Even so I don't think any of my characters would feel guilty about their previous actions. Yes they messed up and endangered the world when they thought they were saving it - but they did the best they could with the information and the options available to them at the time. They're absolutely going to want to do what they can to put it right (and I'm hoping that trying to raise Aurene to be a 'good' dragon will help with that), but I still don't buy Joko's claim that we're the villains here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overlord RainyDay.2084 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Danikat.8537" said: >I still don't buy Joko's claim that we're the villains here. Maybe that's not the point, maybe the point was to get other people to buy it. Conspiracy theory here, but is there any chance that other people may come to doubt or hero status? How well has the knowledge been spread that killing dragons is a bad idea? Surely somebody outside of Dragon's Watch knows by now. Joko certainly did. Your average citizen of Tyria probably hasn't seen the effects of dragon activity, or cares very little about it. Zhaitan attacked far and wide, but his only large scale attacks were on Claw island and pact military outposts. (Plus it's been 5 years in-game at this point.) Mordremoth shut down the leyline system for a bit, attacked a fort in Kryta (That was already in a warzone) and a char outpost that was apparently insignificant enough that Smodur and Rytlock didn't think it was a big deal at first. Most people aside from Sylvari likely never fully understood the thrat of Mordremoth. Jormag and Primordus have been dormant for long enough that it seems like most people don't care. They even let the Sons of Svanir, hang out in Hoelbrak and recruit. The effects of Kralkatorrik's brand are still felt throughout Ascalon, but it appears the Charr consider it manageable. Kralk himself has been out of sight out of mind for a while. Now, what people probably are aware of are the increasing amount of uncontrolled magic in the world. To your average Krytan, Charr, Norn, Arus, or Elonian, Dragons are just this vague distant threat that rarely bothers people and are mostly kept in check. So, if word gets out that Killing dragons = Bad, who would the common person pin the blame on? The Dragonslayer? The one who personally organized the world summit to kill the second dragon? The one who killed one of the Six, and was there when a third dragon almost died? Could Joko have somehow spread rumors painting us a dangerous lunatic, hellbent on destroying the world? From some of the messages heard around Kourna, it seems like he had considered that he might not win against us, so maybe he had a contingency plan in place to tank our reputation in the event he couldn't kill us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > Even so I don't think any of my characters would feel guilty about their previous actions. Yes they messed up and endangered the world when they thought they were saving it - but they did the best they could with the information and the options available to them at the time. They're absolutely going to want to do what they can to put it right (and I'm hoping that trying to raise Aurene to be a 'good' dragon will help with that), but I still don't buy Joko's claim that we're the villains here. I don't think the point is that we're supposed to think we're the villains. We're not villains and we shouldn't feel like we were villains. But we DID act without understanding the full scope of what the elder dragons are, and because of that, we nearly destroyed the world. For THAT, we should feel bad. Yes, we were doing it for all the right reasons. We were trying to save lives, we were trying to protect everything and make sure Tyria didn't become this dragon corrupted world. But we still acted without knowing everything we needed to. That's why we should feel bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are called the Dragon Slayer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail. > > > > > > > > > > > > No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you. > > > > > > > > > > So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him? > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes. > > > > > > But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't. > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVp__KIfKE > > > > > > At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough. > > > > Sure, but we didn't fire that barrage, that's the point. We finish him off after. I didn't fire anything to get it hurt enough to have to land. The video backs me up. We didn't do the most damage. > > Sigh, your backwards logic is astounding. Not only is my logic sound but I can add to it. The Zhaitan fight was originally a story mode dungeon that required at least 2 people to finish it, but was made for five people. It was only after many years, and many complaints that Anet changed that story mode dungeon to a solo fight. The fight was always a five person fight. The PACT killed Zhaitan. You helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foozlesprite.8051 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Okay, this is going to be pretty depressing since I'm speaking from real-world experience here, but here's my hot take, as someone that had to grow up fast as a child due to trauma and having to be the adult at a young age, and has a _lot_ of self-esteem issues because of it. My primary point can probably be summarized as: "Dragon's Watch causes chaos" is bad wording; the emotion it conveys to me is something along the lines of "Dragon's Watch makes things worse in the process of trying to make them better." That is meant to inflict guilt, particularly upon _us_ as the leader that makes the tough choices that tend to snowball into those progressively entangled situations we find ourselves in. And the comment is based on actual things we have done that could bring about the end of the world if we continue to handle them badly. A summary thus far, intended to show a quick procession of just how _bad_ everything has been, how much it has snowballed because of your choices, and how much of it your character might feel is their fault. It is going to be long, no matter how much I compress. Under cut for both entire-story spoilers and excessive length. ----- >! Just about every experience the Commander has had since the beginning of the game has been traumatizing. Heck, most of the level 10 and 20 stories are pretty traumatic. You lost the members of your warband, your charr father was some sort of traitor, you let an orphanage/hospital burn down, your best friend on the streets died because of you, your parents are dead, you got someone's lover killed or had them join the Nightmare Court themself, you can't save the Wolf Havroun, etc. Then you join your Order, and...well, Claw Island and your mentor. Going up through the story, you lose a lot of people due to decisions YOU have to make. You fight your way through a land of shambling undead to kill a terrifying Elder Dragon, and you lose so many people and so many homes and livelihoods to Scarlet and the Karka. >! >! You see Sylvari friends around you turn on you and witness infighting in the Pact - and, perhaps, experience it yourself, if a Sylvari. In fact, if you're a Sylvari, you're bombarded for an entire expansion with a wearying voice that tells you you're not your own, that it would be easier to give in, and there are times where even _you_ have trouble fighting it. A friend steals the egg, you watch a friend's mother get killed, and you have to see your beloved Pact Marshal - and the very first Sylvari - merged with the dragon you must kill. He helps you fight through a mindscape of you and your friends' worst nightmares. You fight another protracted battle, where the friends you've failed are rubbed in your face again. And when all that is done, you have to kill your friend yourself. As irrational as it is, you probably think 'if only I had been there on the airship with them.' >! >! Let's gloss over most the human politics in S3, and summarize it as 'wearing you down, bit by bit.' This is also a bit out of chronological order, for topic-organization purposes. >!By now, your Commander is exasperated and beginning to snap at people during dialogue. You watch Demmi die, which is especially grating if you're from Whispers since you're the one that encouraged her to stay and get involved. (Your fault!) Oh, and two new dragons are awake, in addition to Kralkatorrik. This is one of the first really big times you see the Commander crack under pressure, trying to figure out how to solve this, and feeling like they're responsible. To me, the dialogue at the end of [Elder Druid Protection](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection "Elder Druid Protection") in Flashpoint is a huge turning point in the Commander's confidence. For all the intricacies of each situation until now, it's mostly come down to the same solution: "kill it." But now? The Commander is at a loss, because what do you do when it's not that simple, and making a mistake could destroy the world? >! >! Oh, and there's magic floating around everywhere that's from _you_ and your escapades with the dragons. It seems to be causing a few..._anomalous_ occurrences, including some interesting stuff that's causing some hallucinations for you and requires you to strike some shady deals or use a magical item you have no idea about, just to hopefully take care of it. Because you're kind of tired of feeling like you're losing your mind at this point anyways, with the whirlwind going on. >! >! You learn that a human god has come out of nowhere for ??? reason and is planning to use Elder Dragon magic to throw the world into chaos, and wow, does that just jeopardize all the work you've been desperately doing to try to maintain balance. You're press-ganged into the Shining Blade, a death oath, just to get swept up into a centuries-old grudge in the process of finding said god to take out. >! >! You go through a new land where you're kind of loosely allied with the undead army of a tyrant that's been destroying the nation, just to keep a god from destroying the rest. The god taunts you as you fight him alone, and you _die_ and come back. A dragon dies for you, and your own baby dragon is lost to you. Your fault, you probably feel. These were supposed to be able to replace those two dragons you killed, oh no. What do you do now? Well, you fight the god and kill it, because at least with him it really is that simple. Except whoops, all his magic goes whoosh and gets eaten by an Elder Dragon, you kind of messed that up too. The rest goes boom all over the place, only the gods know how _that's_ going to affect things. Last time it happened, it didn't end up so well. >! >! And then all known regions of Tyria begin to be invaded regularly by the lich's army, because even though you tolerated his army's presence as a stabilizing force for most of the expansion, you did kind of steal his army and taunt him while you were dead. Your fault! He brings back the scarab plague, which has the potential to wipe out humanity entirely, and made a good attempt a while back. Maybe if you hadn't done the army-stealing and taunting it wouldn't feel like your fault. Taimi almost gets killed. Also your fault, since you...well, maybe the army-stealing and taunting was a bad choice, but you didn't see any other options at the time. >! All of this in five/six years, from say, a possible teen growing up in Shaemoor that had no intention of doing any of this, and just kind of got swept up in it all. Or a newborn Sylvari, pushed into this purpose _before the day they're born_. A Norn wanting to make a name for themselves by hunting a dragon, but it's not the one they wanted to take care of first. A charr that was raised thinking their biggest enemy was the ghosts outside their gates, or the malicious shamans that just won't. go. away. Or an Asura that would rather focus on research, or on taking out Primordus if they have to choose. >! >! It's been one thing after another, and as the years pass, and we get more responsibility, a legend grows around us. Your average citizen might herald us as heroes. In fact, we have a herald that's been with us since our early days, who is now an obsessive fangirl. We have a responsibility to publicly act like an example of a legend, so other people are brave in the face of danger. We have a responsibility to make the right choices, to save us all. And the world keeps spiraling out of control as we realize we don't have all the answers, that in solving immediate problems we create bigger ones down the road, that we will eventually come to a point where we're stuck and have no more options because of choices _we_ made. It doesn't always matter if we had all the information at the time. It still brought us closer to the end of the world, and you can always argue to yourself (or others) that although you didn't know, you _should_ have somehow taken the time to find it out somehow. >! >! And keep in mind - your Commander deals with this every day. It's not a once-per-update thing, story all at once. Your Commander is out there hacking through the Mordrem- and chak-infested forests and caves for a year, subsisting on rations and too-little sleep. They're sweating in the desert for weeks at a time, low on water, assaulted by monsters and god-created constructs and more every day, and intermittently separated from their closest friends - one of their only comforts - for weeks, hoping they live to see you again (and vice-versa). >! >! There is absolutely no way, after all of this in just a few years, that an inexperienced recruit shoved up the ranks to 'primary hope for the entire world' does not have PTSD and excessive guilt from decisions they had to personally make. If I was the Commander, I would cry myself to sleep every night. ----- We are still very much trying to figure out how in the world to go about dealing with Kralkatorrik, and it's likely that we haven't publicly shared the 'sorry guys, we can't kill another dragon or we'll all die a terrible death' news yet. The fact that Joko knows is a major shock to us, and he uses our surprise about it to wiggle his undead fingers into our carefully-constructed public persona and slip into the cracks. He _knows_ that taunting us about how responsible and helpless we feel will get to us. It's masterful manipulation of our worst self-doubt. He's shoving a verbal and emotional rusty, serrated knife into us and twisting with relish. It's been mentioned above that he's living on a different timescale than us, knows that he can manipulate history - and the proof is there, just look at Vabbi. If he gets us to crack and slip, do something wrong, he's hailed as the hero that stopped the biggest threat to Tyria - one nobody but him saw coming. Praise Joko, right? These are some potential perspectives he might have going into this encounter: 1. He dies, we live: There's a good chance we can't solve the dragon problem. Assuming the world even survives, we will die at some point, and there is a good chance that in the end we will be viewed as a primary person responsible for the consequences of whatever happens. He's right about us being either ineffective or inadvertently malicious in the end, even though he's dead. On the off-chance we succeed, he's still gotten into our head, which could be viewed as a type of insidious victory itself. 2. He lives, we die: history can be rewritten to cast us as the villain, especially if the truth about the consequences of killing dragons is shared. His own legend is boosted by being the person that took us out to prevent further imbalances, saving Tyria. 3. We both live: he gets to continue interrupting and distracting us from the dragon problem, making it more likely that we'll make a mistake that casts ourselves as a villain. 4. We both die: it doesn't matter; our status as hero and villain will remain as it currently is. **tl;dr:** We've made bad choices that have gotten people killed, and even worse choices that snowball into world-ending territory just to deal with another problem. And we are very aware of this. Joko knows exactly how self-doubting we must be at this moment, and is exploiting it for the sake of his ego and entertainment. He's treating us as a pawn in his malicious marketing program. Having experienced real-world events that leave me with constant self-doubt and the feelings of "oh god, am I making it worse? am I doing this wrong? did I mess up somehow? are they mad at me?" even when things are, logically, perfectly fine - I think that his poking at something that actually _could_ be seen as the Commander's fault is going to shake them for a long, long time despite how quickly we brushed it off in the instance. (Sorry for how long this was - I felt the need to take you quickly through the whirlwind of guilt the Commander has, to help explain why they might feel bad/guilty. I'm by no means saying your confusion is unfounded, this is just a personal explanation on why it made _me_ feel bad, that might help you understand why people can feel that way about it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 @"foozlesprite.8051" I didn't know whether to tag it as helpful or a thumbs up, i just kinda picked one. That's some really great insight into what's going on with the commander and a lot of well explained traumas too, thank you for that. (I'm also sorry that you had to grow up with that trauma as a child, I know this topic isn't about that but I thought it was worth saying. My sister grew up in a similar circumstance to yours where she had to protect me, even on this side there's trauma related to it that i still feel.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 The funny thing is, with the way I (as opposed to the writers) imagine _my Commander_ he doesn’t give a damn. He’s a Norn, all he selfishly cares about his Legend - for better or worse. Or, I mean he’d probably agree that killing the Dragons is bad but he’d be extremely bothered that he cannot kill ‘em. But he’d not be bothered by the supposed negative aspects of his Legend that Joko is talking about. He’s proud of having slain those Dragons. He’d be much more furious about Joko going around hogging his glory by claiming to have done the deeds himself. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowHawk.3615 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I thought it was a wasted speech from him I wasn't engaged in the slightest even though I was really trying. But I wanted to see him stab the commander and kill them for being so boringly written as a protagonist. I get it, ppl acted hastily to kill a threat the dragons Zhaitan and later Mordremoth with doing no research into the lasting effects. Well that wasn't really emphasized until certain living story episodes and then it was kinda just put on repeat until PoF came out. I was disappointed with the short ness of the story as a whole and that's how Joko went out. Kinda silly. I was hoping for something with more "punch" so to speak; and then the characters just kind of "meh oh well" after everything that you witnessed and had been through and dealing with because of Joko's reign. Just ["Lol! Aurene!" *sitcom laugh*] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh.4697 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I mean, we ARE allied with people like Rytlock, who is monstrous to say the least. Man murdered every one of his superiors to become a Tribune, he's explicitly responsible for unleashing Balthazar on the continent for the sake of Ascalon and killing thousands of people, not so much as warning us about what would happen until we were at Elona because Rytlock found the information was 'classified' and put his nation about the safety of the rest of the world. Hell on that note, the very fact that our character was pro-Charr in general in core GW2 always signaled to me he was a nominal hero _at best_ considering even in the best possible light, the Charr were murderous fascists. Let's not even talk about the Order of Whispers, to say that it's morally 'questionable' to assist a global conspiracy in maintaining the status quo of the entire planet through carefully calculated information manipulation and murder is an understatement. That's what this entire season has been about to me really. Whether it's the Olmakhan openly saying what I always thought, that the Charr are an unsustainable society fixated on mass murder, or that the gods while absent were ultimately invested in taking care of mankind and left due to the potential destruction caused, or just the simple fact we're bumbling idiots trying to grasp a solution we don't understand while getting in the way of dragons and gods more integral to the lifeforce of the universe then any of us. We were always the baddie hans, and until now we could always justify ourselves because we were fighting enemies under the banner of a Rats Anus. You could even construe the Order of Shadows itself as a critique of this ideology, murdering innocents in order to create a status quo and build plans within plans, an Order of Whispers agent muttering platitudes about how horrified he is when they actively allied with a man who beat his previous master to death in Lion's Arch because he had potential. I'm looking forward to seeing Rox's character development and getting more information on Lyssa, her thoughts are tantamount to treason in Charr society and a civilization like the Olmakhan is a threat to their alternate history and political stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonyeti.3296 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 > @"Moonyeti.3296" said: > I liked the monologue, I thought it was well written. It didn't make me feel anything though, and that is one of the GW2 narrative failures. The decisions are all scripted, yet the dialog lambasts the choices 'you' (the devs) made. To me it comes across as the devs patting themselves on the back for pulling the wool over our eyes, but they scripted all of our responses. As soon as the game tells me how I am supposed to feel about desicions I didn't make I stop caring. It will be whatever they write. Well that’s the huge disadvantage to having to write our Commander as bland and generic as possible in order to fit such a vast and diverse class/race/sex combinations etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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