Jahroots.6791 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Story bosses aren't rewarding enough to be challenging. But that's cause they designed them wrong to begin with, imo. They _should_ have been replayable group instances; dungeons or fractals or guild missions. Something. What we have is an unhappy medium between casual and hardcore, where the bosses have multiple phases and mechanics but can't actually kill you. And don't really drop anything worth your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"lokh.2695" said: > But that's me and some others as well, but I've learnt to not expect that from players(these days, yes I'm an old man). I am beyond 40 myself, and a young age is no excuse to be "lazier" than us "older" folk. ;) > It would be great if ppl would actually put in some effort and improve I see that happen all the time. I've rarely encountered people who play like newbies after several months in the game (except for those PvE longbow rangers who don't get that [Point Blank Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot "Point Blank Shot") is meant for either self-defense or to be use as a defiance bar breaker, and not to push enemies out of other players' AoE :s ). > but the trend is more going into the direction where everything needs to be as easy as a mobile game. [...] > Ppl are so used to P2W models and simple single player power fantasy games that they expect to get everything, anytime, for free and without putting in any effort. Yes, you are right. A lack of discipline is a state of mind, though, that goes beyond gaming. :/ But like I said, there is still hope as long as there are those who do put in some effort willingly. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"Etria.3642" said: > > I'm not sure you realize. I don't survive to nearly kill the boss so a second try would do it. If alone I die before 75-80%. If it reset each and every time I died I would NEVER kill the boss. I don't feel I should be forced to switch my build to do a STORY instance for heavens sake. Nor should I require an entire team. It isn't a dungeon. It isn't a raid or fractal. It's STORY. > > > > Incidentally I perish far more often in story instances than the other content in general. So please. Leave the challenge for content that is supposed to present a challenge. In fact. If you want a challenge change YOUR build. Take off some armor. Let us poor folk complete it though. > > While I agree with a lot of current bosses resetting the fight would be a bad idea (because regardless of skill level, many are random AOE spam that depend heavily on luck), there is no such definition "story missions have to be easy". It is completely arbitrary or based on outside considerations (wanting players to get to new maps quickly e.g.). They could be tough as hell and still represent the story of a game, which a lot of games do. You can even argue making bosses pushovers via corpserushing invalidates the whole story/epic experience. And its not even getting to the map. The bosses that i have a problem with are the end bosses, the climax of the episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Mea.5491" said: > > u can just respawn and continue auto attacking the boss, die, repeat > > I never die or get downed as a Celestial Firebrand and I use all of my skills, not only auto attack, so this sounds pretty lame to me. There are people who actually do this?! O.o > > I'm sure many people would find it annoying if they changed the current boss fight system. These changes wouldn't make boss fights more impactful or fun, only more stressful. If you arent dying to the encounters theres no change with the system that exists outside of lw. I also disagree, i think that i would take an immortal lich, a god, or a dragon more srsly if i couldnt cheese them so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 There will always be some people who simply can't complete if it worked that way, which would drive away customers. It'll never happen. If you don't like that happening, you should set yourself goals in terms of completion. Just because you CAN die over and over and still complete doesn't mean you have to adopt that approach. Also, nobody does this for fun. Believe me, if a player finds he has to make several attempts, dying all the time, by the time he completes he's good and sick of that encounter. It's not like people are choosing this approach to by-pass effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Aenaos.8160" said: > No ty. > The game is in dire need for more casual content and is still recovering from the flop that was HoT when Anet listened to the tryhards and made > the fights needlessly hard. > There are Fractals and Raids for more advanced players. > Take into account how chaotic the difference in performance can be from one build to another making the exact same content anything from > face roll easy to extremely hard,and that most people that play through the story are not into changing builds and gear just to finish a LS episode. > Ahh yes hot flopped so hard its still be farmed to this day, i cant say the same for pof. As for changing builds, i dont change builds i found a strong build which i just run over content with. Once you have a proper build going you dont have to change. "dire neeed of casual content" What? In the last year we've seen mostly casual content with 2 normal fractals being added which by default are easy content due to no cm. The only actual content catered to veterans was the raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > > > You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the kitten out of it. > > > > > > Doesnt that happen already? > > > > Yeah and the thing is that an MMO has to cater to casuals and more hardcore players at the same time. This is their solution but it means that neither group is really happy with it. I mean it's pretty clear that this game's style of boss fights has to do with bosses littering the ground with stuff you have to dodge out of and not every player is quite that agile or interested in long fights of constant rolling around. I always like to picture a GW2 movie where you have a main encounter and the hero is just rolling around dodging stuff for 10 minutes and each hit barely seems to scratch the bad guy but then eventually many small hits make a big one and the bad guy dies. I think people would fall asleep and not be excited at the victory but rather relieved it's finally over. > > > > Well, that's how it feels to me in game as well. To me the biggest problem is that the fights take so long because our attacks are puny and in a way it seems very implausible that you killed Dragons and a God while struggling to off some lieutenant. My fight against Balthazar was certainly a lot easier than some of the other fights. So overall, I just don't see the point in how they make the boss fights. I bet that the fights would be a lot more fun if the bosses had half the HP they did. Not because it's easier but because it's not such a drag to go through. > > > > And yeah when you are new in a fight there often is a mechanic or two you have to figure out. I remember this fight in LS4 where the boss had a ton of defense so it wasn't dying a lot. Then I figured out what to do to summon this special add that you could damage and his health percentage will become the boss health %. Now, having raided a lot in other games, I could figure this out I guess. But because you're dancing around a lot and the special ability you got from killing other adds didn't seem to do much, it took me a while to summon that special add the first time. I just noticed that after he disappeared again that the boss had the same health percentage and then I figured it out. But I can imagine that for a lot of casual players this can be really hard to figure out and then this fight becomes an even longer fight. > > > > Someone mentioned having a normal and hard mode version of these fights and I think that's a better solution. The baseline story experience shouldn't take forever and it should be pretty straightforward and then the hard mode is where people looking for a challenge can go. You could say that by killing the boss in story mode, you then unlock the instance for HM that you can go to at any time for the challenge for example. > > > > I think though that people who are pretty good at gaming because they have the ability and experience often underestimate their ability and think everybody can do what they can because they feel it's simple. But speaking from my previous experience of raid leader, teaching players how to do boss fights, I've come to realize that in fact most people really struggle with things that you may think are simple but are actually a sign of your ability. > > > > And I think the truth is that whereas gaming 20 years ago was a more specialized group of people who were up to the challenge, MMOs nowadays mostly attract more casual players who just love to walk around in a beautiful world and feel like a boss. GW2 delivers on the first for most people I'd say, but not so much on the second because a lot of people do struggle with the difficulty or the annoyance factors. > > I agree on most of this, but not on the casual player "typology". If you have a brain and eyes, you can put the pieces together as much as some super raider. I think one of the problems is this game really conditions casual players into mindless activities by measure of rewards. When you see people with really low mastery scores and AP in the Istan farm e.g. asking questions that imply they have absolutely no idea about basic game concepts/mechanics, you know GW2s reward system really does its best to discourage people from improving - the mindless stuff is just too attractive. It seems people jump into the game, level to 80 and off they go to 24/7 mob farming. Queensdale champ train anyone? ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"lokh.2695" said: > > @"Ashantara.8731" said: > > > @"lokh.2695" said: > > > You can't tell ppl to improve or you're a meanie. > > > > Why am I a "meanie" upon encouraging people to look into things that are fundamental to the game? :o > > > > Sites like MetaBattle or GW2 Wiki exist for a reason. And dodging (or otherwise avoiding an enemy's AoE) is a mechanic that is absolutely fundamental to GW2's combat system. > > > > That's like saying, "I have to learn math in order to pass my math exam?! Nooooo!" - Well, yeah, some things require practice and a bit of dedication. If you are not willing to invest either, then please don't complain about the bad results. > > > > > Story bosses need to be solo'able AA'ing in green cleric gear. > > > > Where did I say it was about _gear_? I said people need to learn some fundamental stuff (builds a.k.a. efficient skill and trait combinations, playstlye and rotations for their current profession etc.) to get better at fights, and that is the truth. _Nowhere_ did I say, "Unless you have end game gear, you are bound to fail." :s > > All is well. I know what you are saying and I agree with you. As a person, when I encounter a challenge I think about it, see what can be changed about my setup, check the enemy if there's a boon or debuff or something giving me additional information. If I keep failing, I think about mechanics, is there a warning I'm missing, an attack I should dodge at all cost, stuff like that. But that's me and some others as well, but I've learnt to not expect that from players(these days, yes I'm an old man). It would be great if ppl would actually put in some effort and improve but the trend is more going into the direction where everything needs to be as easy as a mobile game. > > I don't think you're a meanie, you sound like a reasonable player. But there are those players in GW2, and there are many of them, that will think you're an elitist when you tell them to dodge a paragraphed attack. Ppl that will demand and request for everything to become easier and easier. It's a sense of entitlement that is new to gaming. Ppl are so used to P2W models and simple single player power fantasy games that they expect to get everything, anytime, for free and without putting in any effort. I was mocking that perception more than I was providing a valuable addition to the discussion. All is well. Funny thing is you can wipe in single player boss encounters, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Because story instanced content matters... > > Here is what it boils down to: > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > Source? > Offering players challenging content is one thing, making it mandatory only so that some few can flex their e-kitten and feel great is another. > The joko fight wouldnt change if this was impolemented tommoror. If you can kill it today you could kill it tommorow as well. It also has very little to do with swinging around you e-kitten for ppl to notice. Theres very few things worth noticing in this game anyways. > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Aenaos.8160" said: > > No ty. > > The game is in dire need for more casual content and is still recovering from the flop that was HoT when Anet listened to the tryhards and made > > the fights needlessly hard. > > There are Fractals and Raids for more advanced players. > > Take into account how chaotic the difference in performance can be from one build to another making the exact same content anything from > > face roll easy to extremely hard,and that most people that play through the story are not into changing builds and gear just to finish a LS episode. > > > > Ahh yes hot flopped so hard its still be farmed to this day, i cant say the same for pof. As for changing builds, i dont change builds i found a strong build which i just run over content with. Once you have a proper build going you dont have to change. > > "dire neeed of casual content" What? In the last year we've seen mostly casual content with 2 normal fractals being added which by default are easy content due to no cm. The only actual content catered to veterans was the raid. I believe they are referring to the story missions, the fact that they nerfed the mobs out in those areas multiple times(people still complain in map chat), and the very very many complaints on both here and the reddit about the difficulty shortly after launch. theres a difference also between veterans and challenge lovers. Im a veteran(playing since launch) i do t4s everyday, and i do raids at least once a month, but i despise how hard they are to do(raids, not fractals). Veterans just have been playing longer, it doesnt mean they are instantly better, or that they like harder content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Jahroots.6791" said: > Story bosses aren't rewarding enough to be challenging. > > But that's cause they designed them wrong to begin with, imo. They _should_ have been replayable group instances; dungeons or fractals or guild missions. Something. > > What we have is an unhappy medium between casual and hardcore, where the bosses have multiple phases and mechanics but can't actually kill you. And don't really drop anything worth your time. > If you can clear the boss in 1 go or 2 it wont be any more challenging. Group content is a wierd one, last time they did it with mordemoth they had way less experience in fight encounters and it was abit overtuned. Personally id love dragon bosses to be group based, it makes sense, it promotes the MMO part of GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healix.5819 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Biff.5312" said: > There will always be some people who simply can't complete if it worked that way, which would drive away customers. There are already people who can't complete it and the people forced into death rushing end up seeing it as nothing more than a tedious grind. If ArenaNet actually added penalties for failing, they would in turn have to offer an easy mode, which would only make things better on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Biff.5312" said: > There will always be some people who simply can't complete if it worked that way, which would drive away customers. It'll never happen. If you don't like that happening, you should set yourself goals in terms of completion. Just because you CAN die over and over and still complete doesn't mean you have to adopt that approach. > > Also, nobody does this for fun. Believe me, if a player finds he has to make several attempts, dying all the time, by the time he completes he's good and sick of that encounter. It's not like people are choosing this approach to by-pass effort. There is no better aproach so ppl arent gonna choose anything. Well there is but if you tell someone to maybe check their build or take their time with the fight better be prepared to leave the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Dante.1763" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Aenaos.8160" said: > > > No ty. > > > The game is in dire need for more casual content and is still recovering from the flop that was HoT when Anet listened to the tryhards and made > > > the fights needlessly hard. > > > There are Fractals and Raids for more advanced players. > > > Take into account how chaotic the difference in performance can be from one build to another making the exact same content anything from > > > face roll easy to extremely hard,and that most people that play through the story are not into changing builds and gear just to finish a LS episode. > > > > > > > Ahh yes hot flopped so hard its still be farmed to this day, i cant say the same for pof. As for changing builds, i dont change builds i found a strong build which i just run over content with. Once you have a proper build going you dont have to change. > > > > "dire neeed of casual content" What? In the last year we've seen mostly casual content with 2 normal fractals being added which by default are easy content due to no cm. The only actual content catered to veterans was the raid. > > I believe they are referring to the story missions, the fact that they nerfed the mobs out in those areas multiple times(people still complain in map chat), and the very very many complaints on both here and the reddit about the difficulty shortly after launch. > Shortly after launch it makes sense to see complain hot had a big jump in diffuculty from the base game. Ideally i would ahve pof release first and then have hot, progression would be smoother then. As for hot story missions (i havent played for years) but iirc the mordermoth was the big one for complains. > theres a difference also between veterans and challenge lovers. Im a veteran(playing since launch) i do t4s everyday, and i do raids at least once a month, but i despise how hard they are to do(raids, not fractals). Veterans just have been playing longer, it doesnt mean they are instantly better, or that they like harder content. But the fight it self doesnt get harder. If you find Balthazar or joko hard today you are gonna find them hard tommorow, if you find them easy today you are going to find them easy tommorow. The stakes change but if a climactic moment doesnt have stakes to begin with then is it actually a climactic moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Because story instanced content matters... > > > > Here is what it boils down to: > > > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > > > Source? > gw2efficiency which already tracks devoted players since they actually signed up. The completion rate for Living World Episodes keeps dropping, go check for your self. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Offering players challenging content is one thing, making it mandatory only so that some few can flex their e-kitten and feel great is another. > > > The joko fight wouldnt change if this was impolemented tommoror. If you can kill it today you could kill it tommorow as well. It also has very little to do with swinging around you e-kitten for ppl to notice. Theres very few things worth noticing in this game anyways. The fight wouldn't change, the possibility for people to complete it who are not as skilled would. Difference, please don't strawman like this. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > > > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. A big majority is very casual. Your attitude to the game is as valuable as theirs. Main difference, your hardcore or elite attitude is in the vast minority. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. > > Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. > FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. FF14 has regular gear progression and throwaway dungeons and instance content as part of its gear progression. GW2 makes instanced content not mandatory and dungeons are quite challenging to new players, so are fractals. Main difference: they are optional. Zealix you keep coming up with these ideas about changing GW2 into something you would enjoy. When will you realize: this game is not what you seek and will never be what you want it to be. The player base is way off in the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Because story instanced content matters... > > > > > > Here is what it boils down to: > > > > > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > > > > > Source? > > > > gw2efficiency which already tracks devoted players since they actually signed up. The completion rate for Living World Episodes keeps dropping, go check for your self. > I thought it was well "established" that a minority uses gw2 eff. Alot of my friends who use it do high tier fractals and raids more than ow and lw so this content hardly interests them. Let alone having them come back for any meaningful amount of time. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Offering players challenging content is one thing, making it mandatory only so that some few can flex their e-kitten and feel great is another. > > > > > The joko fight wouldnt change if this was impolemented tommoror. If you can kill it today you could kill it tommorow as well. It also has very little to do with swinging around you e-kitten for ppl to notice. Theres very few things worth noticing in this game anyways. > > The fight wouldn't change, the possibility for people to complete it who are not as skilled would. Difference, please don't strawman like this. > I can see that and it works both ways tbh. The existing system will snowball against really bad players but the system i suggest would idd be more punishing if you can kill it with 1 death but it would give the ppl that die 10 plus times less of a hard time. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > > > > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > > > > > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. > > A big majority is very casual. Your attitude to the game is as valuable as theirs. Main difference, your hardcore or elite attitude is in the vast minority. > Im casual and i can prepare myself for content. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. > > > > Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. > > FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. > > FF14 has regular gear progression and throwaway dungeons and instance content. GW2 makes instanced content not mandatory and dungeons are quite challenging to new players, so are fractals. Main difference, they are optional. U wont be able to get to the higher content to outgear story u cant do, its mandatory. Instance content doesnt even matter in the case of gw2 open world farming for a good gear set will hook you up nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Because story instanced content matters... > > > > > > > > Here is what it boils down to: > > > > > > > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > gw2efficiency which already tracks devoted players since they actually signed up. The completion rate for Living World Episodes keeps dropping, go check for your self. > > > > I thought it was well "established" that a minority uses gw2 eff. Alot of my friends who use it do high tier fractals and raids more than ow and lw so this content hardly interests them. Let alone having them come back for any meaningful amount of time. > Yes, and that minority represents already a big chunck of devoted players who actually take the time to sign up. Case in point: the amount of free accounts on gw2eff are 3k out of over 100k accounts. That is a huge disparity to actual free accounts. Your subjective view and friends do not beat common logic and basic logical assumptions. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > > > > > > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > > > > > > > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. > > > > A big majority is very casual. Your attitude to the game is as valuable as theirs. Main difference, your hardcore or elite attitude is in the vast minority. > > > Im casual and i can prepare myself for content. Fine, you are a casual who keeps asking for challenging content where a majority of the player base will not seek any, better? > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. > > > > > > Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. > > > FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. > > > > FF14 has regular gear progression and throwaway dungeons and instance content. GW2 makes instanced content not mandatory and dungeons are quite challenging to new players, so are fractals. Main difference, they are optional. > > U wont be able to get to the higher content to outgear story u cant do, its mandatory. Instance content doesnt even matter in the case of gw2 open world farming for a good gear set will hook you up nicely. Which story would that be? HoT which I've completed in full greens? PoF which rares are fine for? The approach is and always has been: - keep open world content easy enough (even HoT was nerfed multiple times) - story was never a challenge and even the parts which were challenging got nerfed multiple times - instanced content is optional and increases in difficulty Again, you keep asking for things which will never happen. Move on or accept the game for what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Because story instanced content matters... > > > > > > > > > > Here is what it boils down to: > > > > > > > > > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > gw2efficiency which already tracks devoted players since they actually signed up. The completion rate for Living World Episodes keeps dropping, go check for your self. > > > > > > > I thought it was well "established" that a minority uses gw2 eff. Alot of my friends who use it do high tier fractals and raids more than ow and lw so this content hardly interests them. Let alone having them come back for any meaningful amount of time. > > > > Yes, and that minority represents already a big chunck of devoted players who actually take the time to sign up. Case in point: the amount of free accounts on gw2eff are 3k out of over 100k accounts. That is a huge disparity to actual free accounts. Your subjective view and friends do not beat common logic and basic logical assumptions. > Yes i understand what kind of ppl have gw2eff acounts im argueing that the ppl that do lw in gw2eff are nowhere near the total. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > > > > > > > > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > > > > > > > > > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. > > > > > > A big majority is very casual. Your attitude to the game is as valuable as theirs. Main difference, your hardcore or elite attitude is in the vast minority. > > > > > Im casual and i can prepare myself for content. > > Fine, you are a casual who keeps asking for challenging content where a majority of the player base will not seek any, better? > Just wanted to point ou that casual doesnt mean bad at the game. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. > > > > > > > > Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. > > > > FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. > > > > > > FF14 has regular gear progression and throwaway dungeons and instance content. GW2 makes instanced content not mandatory and dungeons are quite challenging to new players, so are fractals. Main difference, they are optional. > > > > U wont be able to get to the higher content to outgear story u cant do, its mandatory. Instance content doesnt even matter in the case of gw2 open world farming for a good gear set will hook you up nicely. > > Which story would that be? HoT which I've completed in full greens? PoF which rares are fine for? > > The approach is and always has been: > - keep open world content easy enough (even HoT was nerfed multiple times) > - story was never a challenge and even the parts which were challenging got nerfed multiple times > - instanced content is optional and increases in difficulty > > Again, you keep asking for things which will never happen. Move on or accept the game for what it is. I was refering to ff14 it has gear prog but to get there you need to finish the story and to finish the story u need to do the dungeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Because story instanced content matters... > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is what it boils down to: > > > > > > > > > > > > The fewer people play the story, the less the general player population gets invested in the game. The latest Living World Episodes are down to a minimum completion wise, that is NOT a good sign. > > > > > > > > > > > Source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > gw2efficiency which already tracks devoted players since they actually signed up. The completion rate for Living World Episodes keeps dropping, go check for your self. > > > > > > > > > > I thought it was well "established" that a minority uses gw2 eff. Alot of my friends who use it do high tier fractals and raids more than ow and lw so this content hardly interests them. Let alone having them come back for any meaningful amount of time. > > > > > > > Yes, and that minority represents already a big chunck of devoted players who actually take the time to sign up. Case in point: the amount of free accounts on gw2eff are 3k out of over 100k accounts. That is a huge disparity to actual free accounts. Your subjective view and friends do not beat common logic and basic logical assumptions. > > > Yes i understand what kind of ppl have gw2eff acounts im argueing that the ppl that do lw in gw2eff are nowhere near the total. Absolutely, and I'm saying the percentage of people on gw2efficiency who have completed the Living World is higher than that of the entire population since the people on gw2efficiency are already more devoted than the entire games population. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > There is not enough developer ressources to develope hard modes for story and even if there were, there is enough other content and work which needs addressing first. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the player base and the subsequent health of the game is of any interest, story should be completable by as many players as possible. Have achievements for the most difficult aspects (as is now). > > > > > > > > > > > Most players can be able to complete anything in this game, its all based on your attitude towards the game, your mindset and your willingness to swap a utility. > > > > > > > > A big majority is very casual. Your attitude to the game is as valuable as theirs. Main difference, your hardcore or elite attitude is in the vast minority. > > > > > > > Im casual and i can prepare myself for content. > > > > Fine, you are a casual who keeps asking for challenging content where a majority of the player base will not seek any, better? > > > Just wanted to point ou that casual doesnt mean bad at the game. No it doesn't, I did use it to explain that a big majority of the player base is not interested in challenging content. Unless you want to argue that is not the case I'm not sure where your argument is leading. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > There is a large enough casual player base in this game to warrant the story to be easy unless you want to turn GW2 into a niche MMO. > > > > > > > > > > Mfw a dying to a boss and being ported right outside the boss' room with fixed gear and reset cds would make gw2 a niche MMO. > > > > > FF14 demands that you play through its dungeons (group content) as part of the story and look at the game's state. If thats the niche we are talking about i hope GW2 turns into a niche mmo. > > > > > > > > FF14 has regular gear progression and throwaway dungeons and instance content. GW2 makes instanced content not mandatory and dungeons are quite challenging to new players, so are fractals. Main difference, they are optional. > > > > > > U wont be able to get to the higher content to outgear story u cant do, its mandatory. Instance content doesnt even matter in the case of gw2 open world farming for a good gear set will hook you up nicely. > > > > Which story would that be? HoT which I've completed in full greens? PoF which rares are fine for? > > > > The approach is and always has been: > > - keep open world content easy enough (even HoT was nerfed multiple times) > > - story was never a challenge and even the parts which were challenging got nerfed multiple times > > - instanced content is optional and increases in difficulty > > > > Again, you keep asking for things which will never happen. Move on or accept the game for what it is. > > I was refering to ff14 it has gear prog but to get there you need to finish the story and to finish the story u need to do the dungeons. Yes and it would be great if GW2 had something similar which taught players the basics. It doesn't and adding it in retroactively into existing content is a hassle not worth taking. Now if Arenanet decided to implement some kind of side story to explain some of the games basics to players I'd fully support that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing stops you from watching a youtube playthrough of the fight either. > > > > > > > > > > And theres stuff that do. Like, the weird checkpoints or lack thereof in alot of the fights. > > > > > > > > My point is that I don’t see the point of your complaint. It only affects you and you can artificially punish yourself if you feel like it. There’s no need to impose your will on other players. > > > > > > I dont look to make the fight harder in a way nor to make it in any way more punishing. I believe it would make for better boss fights and it would make the experience less annoying if the fights reset along with your gear and cds after a wipe. > > > > It might, but if you understand the target market for this game, you would know why that's not a desirable option. > > > > The bottomline is that you can get what you want with the game mechanics for no addition work on Anet's part and no impact on the players that benefit from the current approach to storylines. > > Not forcing anet to make this change just expressing my disenjoyment with the way fights currently work. > > They've both had 2 diff modes for fights in the past as well as the base missions being tougher in gw1 so ik they are familiar with the system. Sure ... and you can make fights work to exactly the way you want to get the enjoyment you want from them. So what's the problem here?> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > > > You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the kitten out of it. > > > > > > Doesnt that happen already? > > > > Yeah and the thing is that an MMO has to cater to casuals and more hardcore players at the same time. This is their solution but it means that neither group is really happy with it. I mean it's pretty clear that this game's style of boss fights has to do with bosses littering the ground with stuff you have to dodge out of and not every player is quite that agile or interested in long fights of constant rolling around. I always like to picture a GW2 movie where you have a main encounter and the hero is just rolling around dodging stuff for 10 minutes and each hit barely seems to scratch the bad guy but then eventually many small hits make a big one and the bad guy dies. I think people would fall asleep and not be excited at the victory but rather relieved it's finally over. > > > > Well, that's how it feels to me in game as well. To me the biggest problem is that the fights take so long because our attacks are puny and in a way it seems very implausible that you killed Dragons and a God while struggling to off some lieutenant. My fight against Balthazar was certainly a lot easier than some of the other fights. So overall, I just don't see the point in how they make the boss fights. I bet that the fights would be a lot more fun if the bosses had half the HP they did. Not because it's easier but because it's not such a drag to go through. > > > > And yeah when you are new in a fight there often is a mechanic or two you have to figure out. I remember this fight in LS4 where the boss had a ton of defense so it wasn't dying a lot. Then I figured out what to do to summon this special add that you could damage and his health percentage will become the boss health %. Now, having raided a lot in other games, I could figure this out I guess. But because you're dancing around a lot and the special ability you got from killing other adds didn't seem to do much, it took me a while to summon that special add the first time. I just noticed that after he disappeared again that the boss had the same health percentage and then I figured it out. But I can imagine that for a lot of casual players this can be really hard to figure out and then this fight becomes an even longer fight. > > > > Someone mentioned having a normal and hard mode version of these fights and I think that's a better solution. The baseline story experience shouldn't take forever and it should be pretty straightforward and then the hard mode is where people looking for a challenge can go. You could say that by killing the boss in story mode, you then unlock the instance for HM that you can go to at any time for the challenge for example. > > > > I think though that people who are pretty good at gaming because they have the ability and experience often underestimate their ability and think everybody can do what they can because they feel it's simple. But speaking from my previous experience of raid leader, teaching players how to do boss fights, I've come to realize that in fact most people really struggle with things that you may think are simple but are actually a sign of your ability. > > > > And I think the truth is that whereas gaming 20 years ago was a more specialized group of people who were up to the challenge, MMOs nowadays mostly attract more casual players who just love to walk around in a beautiful world and feel like a boss. GW2 delivers on the first for most people I'd say, but not so much on the second because a lot of people do struggle with the difficulty or the annoyance factors. > > I agree on most of this, but not on the casual player "typology". If you have a brain and eyes, you can put the pieces together as much as some super raider. I think one of the problems is this game really conditions casual players into mindless activities by measure of rewards. When you see people with really low mastery scores and AP in the Istan farm e.g. asking questions that imply they have absolutely no idea about basic game concepts/mechanics, you know GW2s reward system really does its best to discourage people from improving - the mindless stuff is just too attractive. It seems people jump into the game, level to 80 and off they go to 24/7 mob farming. Queensdale champ train anyone? Not all casuals are the same but I've seen in other games that my definition of an average casual players was set a lot higher than the reality. Now that doesn't mean all players are like that but there are a lot more players than you might think that really struggle or simply don't care about the specifics in combat. They just want to go in, whack around a bit and move on. And if that's fun for them that's cool too. I get that. In this game I also play as a casual though I admit that I find the approach to combat here a bit lazy in design and it bores me easily because even when it's challenging it tends to be challenging for the wrong reasons. And I really think that your classification of "a brain and eyes" is simply overestimating a lot of people. I used to think like you by the way. I just learned that actually it takes more than that. But I do distinguish still between people who don't care because it's not for them and those who just can't figure things out or even when they do still struggle a great deal to get there. It may feel unkind to say it but the truth is that we have a tendency to underestimate our own abilities when we do have them. You'd be surprised how many people struggle boiling an egg. You'd think that having a brain and eyes should do the trick...but it doesn't. And some can learn if they want and others can't. But bottom line is that people should not make assumptions about the level or ability of others because you tend to create those assumptions based on what you find easy yourself. I mean, in a way I wish you were right but in the last decade or so I just started noticing more and more people struggling with things I found easy to do and I just had to rethink my way of looking at things. I have this feeling that the type of people MMOs like this attract are less and less the hardcore players and more and more the casual players, who want things to be simpler either cause it's their level or they don't want the hassle of difficult or long fights. And that is ultimately my point as well. I find the combat uninteresting in this game to really get in depth into it. No matter what class you play you can be ranged or melee DPS basically and dodging is key to every single fight...which is the same for every class. And every boss fight of some sort has lots of circles on the floor to jump out of. I get that some people like that but at some point it just feels like they just add more of those circles or shapes on the ground and faster and give the bosses loads of HP or defense to slow you down. That's an endurance test for your patience and fingers more than an interesting fight to me. And I can't blame people who struggle with that or find it boring. But ok, it's my view and nobody has to agree with me as I said before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said: > > > > > You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the kitten out of it. > > > > > > > > Doesnt that happen already? > > > > > > Yeah and the thing is that an MMO has to cater to casuals and more hardcore players at the same time. This is their solution but it means that neither group is really happy with it. I mean it's pretty clear that this game's style of boss fights has to do with bosses littering the ground with stuff you have to dodge out of and not every player is quite that agile or interested in long fights of constant rolling around. I always like to picture a GW2 movie where you have a main encounter and the hero is just rolling around dodging stuff for 10 minutes and each hit barely seems to scratch the bad guy but then eventually many small hits make a big one and the bad guy dies. I think people would fall asleep and not be excited at the victory but rather relieved it's finally over. > > > > > > Well, that's how it feels to me in game as well. To me the biggest problem is that the fights take so long because our attacks are puny and in a way it seems very implausible that you killed Dragons and a God while struggling to off some lieutenant. My fight against Balthazar was certainly a lot easier than some of the other fights. So overall, I just don't see the point in how they make the boss fights. I bet that the fights would be a lot more fun if the bosses had half the HP they did. Not because it's easier but because it's not such a drag to go through. > > > > > > And yeah when you are new in a fight there often is a mechanic or two you have to figure out. I remember this fight in LS4 where the boss had a ton of defense so it wasn't dying a lot. Then I figured out what to do to summon this special add that you could damage and his health percentage will become the boss health %. Now, having raided a lot in other games, I could figure this out I guess. But because you're dancing around a lot and the special ability you got from killing other adds didn't seem to do much, it took me a while to summon that special add the first time. I just noticed that after he disappeared again that the boss had the same health percentage and then I figured it out. But I can imagine that for a lot of casual players this can be really hard to figure out and then this fight becomes an even longer fight. > > > > > > Someone mentioned having a normal and hard mode version of these fights and I think that's a better solution. The baseline story experience shouldn't take forever and it should be pretty straightforward and then the hard mode is where people looking for a challenge can go. You could say that by killing the boss in story mode, you then unlock the instance for HM that you can go to at any time for the challenge for example. > > > > > > I think though that people who are pretty good at gaming because they have the ability and experience often underestimate their ability and think everybody can do what they can because they feel it's simple. But speaking from my previous experience of raid leader, teaching players how to do boss fights, I've come to realize that in fact most people really struggle with things that you may think are simple but are actually a sign of your ability. > > > > > > And I think the truth is that whereas gaming 20 years ago was a more specialized group of people who were up to the challenge, MMOs nowadays mostly attract more casual players who just love to walk around in a beautiful world and feel like a boss. GW2 delivers on the first for most people I'd say, but not so much on the second because a lot of people do struggle with the difficulty or the annoyance factors. > > > > I agree on most of this, but not on the casual player "typology". If you have a brain and eyes, you can put the pieces together as much as some super raider. I think one of the problems is this game really conditions casual players into mindless activities by measure of rewards. When you see people with really low mastery scores and AP in the Istan farm e.g. asking questions that imply they have absolutely no idea about basic game concepts/mechanics, you know GW2s reward system really does its best to discourage people from improving - the mindless stuff is just too attractive. It seems people jump into the game, level to 80 and off they go to 24/7 mob farming. Queensdale champ train anyone? > > Not all casuals are the same but I've seen in other games that my definition of an average casual players was set a lot higher than the reality. Now that doesn't mean all players are like that but there are a lot more players than you might think that really struggle or simply don't care about the specifics in combat. They just want to go in, whack around a bit and move on. And if that's fun for them that's cool too. I get that. In this game I also play as a casual though I admit that I find the approach to combat here a bit lazy in design and it bores me easily because even when it's challenging it tends to be challenging for the wrong reasons. > > And I really think that your classification of "a brain and eyes" is simply overestimating a lot of people. I used to think like you by the way. I just learned that actually it takes more than that. But I do distinguish still between people who don't care because it's not for them and those who just can't figure things out or even when they do still struggle a great deal to get there. It may feel unkind to say it but the truth is that we have a tendency to underestimate our own abilities when we do have them. You'd be surprised how many people struggle boiling an egg. You'd think that having a brain and eyes should do the trick...but it doesn't. And some can learn if they want and others can't. But bottom line is that people should not make assumptions about the level or ability of others because you tend to create those assumptions based on what you find easy yourself. I mean, in a way I wish you were right but in the last decade or so I just started noticing more and more people struggling with things I found easy to do and I just had to rethink my way of looking at things. > > I have this feeling that the type of people MMOs like this attract are less and less the hardcore players and more and more the casual players, who want things to be simpler either cause it's their level or they don't want the hassle of difficult or long fights. And that is ultimately my point as well. I find the combat uninteresting in this game to really get in depth into it. No matter what class you play you can be ranged or melee DPS basically and dodging is key to every single fight...which is the same for every class. And every boss fight of some sort has lots of circles on the floor to jump out of. I get that some people like that but at some point it just feels like they just add more of those circles or shapes on the ground and faster and give the bosses loads of HP or defense to slow you down. That's an endurance test for your patience and fingers more than an interesting fight to me. And I can't blame people who struggle with that or find it boring. But ok, it's my view and nobody has to agree with me as I said before. > I cannot agree on that, I have a fairly high opinion of human abilities in general, we are problem solvers by nature. The mechanics are really not rocket science. I guess it really comes down to attitude. Either I am willing to observe and adapt, or not. In latter case, I will invest my energy into complaints instead of observing. I cannot remember a single boss fight mechanic in personal or living story that is not easily observed and understood. Maybe the Aurene combo in the PoF finale, as the explanation dates back a few years even I think. But even then, it really comes down to this: * red circle - bad, avoid * blue bar - use CC skills (yes, that would require to have hovered over your skills at least ONCE in the whole time you ever played) * white circle - something special is going on here, I have to check it out * icon appears close to health orb - oh, my extra skill is necessary/useful here, have I actually set it to a key at one point? * if I cannot succeed by normal fighting and I keep bashing my head on the wall unsuccesfully, there is probably something special going on All other stuff like picking up bloodstone crystals and throwing them is usually explained in earlier story steps. I refuse to believe an average human being could be unable to figure this all out. It all comes down to an attitude of "can't be bothered". as for casual, aren´t casual players playing Professor Layton and stuff like that? That requires a lot more of said skills I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Chocolate.5870 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Biff.5312" said: > Also, nobody does this for fun. Believe me, if a player finds he has to make several attempts, dying all the time, by the time he completes he's good and sick of that encounter. It's not like people are choosing this approach to by-pass effort. I have to disagree with this - I find defeating a boss significantly more satisfying if it took me several attempts - especially if I had to adapt my build to beat them. The lack of an option to restart that boss battle from the beginning - without having to replay the entire instance, which is often quite long - does take some of that satisfaction away (for me - not speaking for anyone else here). Judging by this thread, I'm in the minority though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I personally don't care about how difficult it is, I do care that a boss fight is a coherent experience. You go through the motions to defeat what's in front of you and have a satisfying fight from beginning until the end. If res-rushing is possible that will break that experience and you're quite literally chipping away at a health bar not caring about mechanics because you can, not caring whether you hit, dodge at the right time or use your skills right. Or at least to a lesser extend. I feel that every boss fight needs to play out as one scene. You don't stop pause and play in a key action scene within a movie either. (well maybe to see it frame by frame and make a fight scene analysis I suppose) If res-rushing needs to be enabled in order for people to make the fight or at least get through it, it's better to tune the whole fight down or differently in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taygus.4571 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > This is one of those things that, I'm not sure that the players who hate the idea necessarily know best. I'm going to reference a moment here, where [Dawko beats 50/20 mode in Ultimate Custom Night]( "https://youtube.com/watch?v=dLu6IFPK6eQ&t=270s") and is brought to tears over his achievement. I mean, just look at that. I bet most people haven't been this happy in their entire lives. > > Beating the bosses in harder games (a la Cuphead) feels great, but it only feels great if there's an actual challenge in beating them. Speak for yourself here. Not everyone enjoys that level of challenge. I don't game to feel proud of my e-skills. Example. One of my all time favourite games to play and replay is Fable:TLC. There's nothing challenging about that game. I'm part of the crowd that mostly no longer plays LW Stories. I find the difficulty unenjoyable.. and mostly AoE madness. I tend to die to the bosses a couple times and I for one was glad they didn't reset. I despised the finally HoT story instance for example. I also don't like that an instance often takes longer than 20-30 minutes. If this crowd continues to grow and LW popularity continues to fall, that's not good for ANet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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