WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[Stormscar.5489]

> Hmm I think you are in the wrong game mode move along to the PVP arena theres a good chap, its not PVP it is WvW taking structures ,defending yada yada yada there is no strategy in what is called WvW its moaners complaining about the game mode as it was designed for . You like bridges?? then build one and get over it.

 

PvP is small scale combat, which has very different dynamics compared to 15, 20, 25, 50+, which is what is enjoyed by the fight oriented wvw players. Stop trying to rationalise your camping on an ac pressing 1 as strategy. If you want to play 1111 content, there's plenty of it in the open world ;).

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> > Hmm I think you are in the wrong game mode move along to the PVP arena theres a good chap, its not PVP it is WvW taking structures ,defending yada yada yada there is no strategy in what is called WvW its moaners complaining about the game mode as it was designed for . You like bridges?? then build one and get over it.

>

> PvP is small scale combat, which has very different dynamics compared to 15, 20, 25, 50+, which is what is enjoyed by the fight oriented wvw players. Stop trying to rationalise your camping on an ac pressing 1 as strategy. If you want to play 1111 content, there's plenty of it in the open world ;).

 

Spoken like a true blobber fights spam 1 way to go you have no real clue of the dynamics of WvW. Trying to impose how the "fight"guilds plenty of room in Eotm for the zerglings anet set it up for you lot .

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> Finally they took a step in the right direction with this nerf. This gamemode should be about fighting. What do you tell people when you even try to convince people out of GW2 to try it out? Do you talk about a gamemode that has massive fights between tens of players, or do you talk about a siege simulator? The only people whining are the rallybots who never learnt how to fight and get good.

>

> The people whining that they spent hours on upgrading a structure and running dollys. Well, maybe now you'll dedicate time to the actual interesting part of wvw, instead of playing a running or Bob the builder simulator. Structures are just an excuse to create fights and to provide more interesting terrain to fight on, they are not the centre piece of wvw.

>

> Also, as some players have mentioned, if you don't have enough players (or quality) to hold an attacking blob, you deserve to drop to the tier you deserve. Not hold a place in a higher, more active tier, and bore the other servers to death because they have no groups to fight from your server almost the whole time, but just clouds of pugs hiding inside structures. The problem is the lower population that is too thinly spread (atleast on EU) through 5 tiers, which imo should be compressed to 4. But this problem by no means should get a bandaid fix with overpowered siege.

 

You really are out of touch hmm and the way out of control of the mess from elite specialisations which gives way to skillless spam1 so called fights and everyone says get good hahaha so lame , hasnt been fight skill in this game for a long time. Pirate ship is not skill.

[Stormscar.5489]

> Spoken like a true blobber fights spam 1 way to go you have no real clue of the dynamics of WvW. Trying to impose how the "fight"guilds plenty of room in Eotm for the zerglings anet set it up for you lot .

 

Haha spamming 1 works versus bad blobs of players like the ones whining that AC got nerfed. Idk how it is on NA (where you probably play guessing by your warped vision of blobbing), but from what I've watched the average skill level there is way worse than EU. Obviously you would think that you just 1111 in a blob fight. But watch or play with good blobs, or on WSR/Vabbi/Riverside, and you will notice how things change when players actually know how to play the game.

 

> You really are out of touch hmm and the way out of control of the mess from elite specialisations which gives way to skillless spam1 so called fights and everyone says get good hahaha so lame , hasnt been fight skill in this game for a long time. Pirate ship is not skill.

 

I have watched videos of core wvw gameplay, spamming 1 was literally what many people did, because the number of used skills and the reaction times necessary were low (look at Red Guard videos even). I don't think that the current meta is the healthiest, but it is harder to play by far compared to previous metas. And btw pirateshipping is mostly a tool used by squads with a strong range to thin out numbers at the start, after which you have to melee push, which is very doable if you and your players know what you are doing. This whining about pirateshipping shows you don't know anything and you're out of touch. Anyway, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, you're just a salty no skill rallybot.

 

And yes, I do know a bit of what I'm talking about, as I lead both open tags and guild raids (not that you have to be a commander to come to these conclusions). What's your expertise, a masters in AC camping? Don't let the door hit you on the way out, hope your ecto farm goes well ;).

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

 

>

> You don' t seem to understand what PvP is, the 'v' stands for versus, which means competing against, when you go kill the guild lord in Foefire in sPvP you aren't competing against the guild lord, it isn't PvE, you aren't competing against the environment like in a PvE raid, you are still competing against the opposing team, the guild lord is merely an objective designed to draw fights, add strategy, provide a comeback mechanism, and provide a way for you to win the match and beat the opposing team.

>

> That is exactly the same when for example you are trying to kill a keep lord in WvW, it is there to delay your team from taking the objective of the keep, to give the opposing team time to get there and force fights, you aren't competing against the environment, you aren't there to "beat the guild lord", you are there to take the opposing team's keep, increase your score/decrease theirs and have a fight (unless you are French/Spanish/Piken/PvE roleplayer in the wrong game mode), all of which is about competing versus the other team, otherwise known as PvP.

>

> Which is precisely why as "PvE" the guild lord in Foefire and the keep lords in WvW are so trivial, they aren't there as meaningful PvE to challenge your PvE skills, they are mere PvP objectives / mechanisms.

 

Except that no other players are controlling the Guild Lord in foefire, or the Keep/Tower lords. So by definition some of the sPvP maps HAVE PVE in them (however in sPvP you don't need to fight those mobs to win, though it helps sometimes). Calling them PvP objectives doesn't make it any less PvE, because those npc's are part of said environment, like it or not.

 

And regardless your thoughts on it, the mere fact that they are NOT controlled by another player, AND are part of the maps environment, challenging or not immediately means that you are in WvW engaging in PvPvE. Not all the time, and not all at once however. But the mode IS PvPvE. If I go to WvW and only take camps, or towers and see no other players (it has happened) then I might as well be playing PvE with some catas or rams added in. If I only fight other players and attack no npcs (sentries or guards or yaks for example) Then it is PvP. But if I am attacking a tower lord and someone comes along to stop me and we start fighting WITH the tower lord still aggro'ed, that is PvPvE. All because there is no one directly controlling those mobs

 

But hey if A.net have actual people controlling every npc by mouse and keyboard, then sure, WvW is strictly a PvP game mode..... but I really doubt they are.

 

Also, if you have a problem with me calling it PvPvE then I suggest you don't look at the wiki (I don't edit wiki's) but WvW is classified as PvP/PvE LOL.

 

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

 

> PvP is small scale combat, which has very different dynamics compared to 15, 20, 25, 50+, which is what is enjoyed by the fight oriented wvw players. Stop trying to rationalise your camping on an ac pressing 1 as strategy. If you want to play 1111 content, there's plenty of it in the open world ;).

 

It is strategy. Because if there are 5 of my team and 20 of yours, WHY would we rush out and die when your attacking our walls. I haven't gotten a clear answer as to how people think this is both a) a valid strategy and b) actually helpful to your team. Aside from that all I keep seeing is the wvw "fighters" that blob up want easy kills and not a real fight. I've seen entire zergs that bullrush a smaller zerg down, but as soon as that smaller zerg gets bigger, runs away. The only ones to stick it out are usually the hardcore fighting zergs but I see less and less of those these days.

 

But I'm going to use my strategy at least to push some groups off my objectives (and if I kill some folks, then neat I guess) and let them come up with a new strategy to break in. I'm sorry that you have to go and try a different cata spot (as long as they don't build next to the wall again) that might be out of AC range. Or maybe people could split up and hit multiple walls so the minor amount of defenders that are usually there initially can't defend easily against. But hey that's actual strategy. AC's are tools to be used, whether you like them or not.

 

And as I said before in this thread, no one is sitting on an AC 24/7. They are usually doing a BUNCH of other things and only on that ac when a zerg shows up (and you know, are in range)

[Israel.7056]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

>What's your expertise, a masters in AC camping? Don't let the door hit you on the way out, hope your ecto farm goes well ;).

 

Roasted.

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Every person that says that siege needs to be nerfed more or removed all together and only fights need to be done in WvW, I guarantee you are the first ones to run from a fight once they know they won't win or just flat out avoid the fight if the numbers don't look good. Honestly, at this point, I'd kind of like to see all of these so-called fight servers get together and see how it goes. I'll bet that it doesn't play out the way they think it will. It's just pure ego from tryhards that are killing WvW slowly but surely. "Balance" isn't even balance at this point. It's just people crying that they can't win so something needs to be nerfed, not balanced. It makes me sick, but nothing I can do about it. You can't bring logic to this fight, it just doesn't matter when it comes to small minded thinking. Everybody has to start playing how other people want them to play, not how you want to play. That's just not fair.

[Celsith.2753]

The stronger defensive siege is, the more attackers need to outnumber the defenders. What this translates to in reality is that during the prime time of a match when the servers have most people on, no one attacks anything defended. So you have the ludicrous situation of servers avoiding each other during prime time and trying to 15 catapult ninja something out of range of a watchtower to avoid a siege fight. Then bringing a huge blob to run over the outnumbered server in less populated hours. Unfortunately it's quite simply the same old issue wvw has always has - population disparity.

It sucks to be that outnumbered side. It's natural to want tools to help you. But ultimately any tool introduced to help when outnumbered can and will be used against you by the side that already has numbers. There comes a point when you have to understand that what personally benefits you may not be healthy for the whole game mode.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> The stronger defensive siege is, the more attackers need to outnumber the defenders. What this translates to in reality is that during the prime time of a match when the servers have most people on, no one attacks anything defended. So you have the ludicrous situation of servers avoiding each other during prime time and trying to 15 catapult ninja something out of range of a watchtower to avoid a siege fight. Then bringing a huge blob to run over the outnumbered server in less populated hours. Unfortunately it's quite simply the same old issue wvw has always has - population disparity.

> It sucks to be that outnumbered side. It's natural to want tools to help you. But ultimately any tool introduced to help when outnumbered can and will be used against you by the side that already has numbers. There comes a point when you have to understand that what personally benefits you may not be healthy for the whole game mode.

 

At some point I've given up trying to explain this to players. They don't see how fighting over objectives during prime times has stagnated. It is almost as if they've never played WvW before defense and AC damage was buffed or at least don't remember it. Or the third possibility is that this is what remains of the WvW population after so many have quit.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > The stronger defensive siege is, the more attackers need to outnumber the defenders. What this translates to in reality is that during the prime time of a match when the servers have most people on, no one attacks anything defended. So you have the ludicrous situation of servers avoiding each other during prime time and trying to 15 catapult ninja something out of range of a watchtower to avoid a siege fight. Then bringing a huge blob to run over the outnumbered server in less populated hours. Unfortunately it's quite simply the same old issue wvw has always has - population disparity.

> > It sucks to be that outnumbered side. It's natural to want tools to help you. But ultimately any tool introduced to help when outnumbered can and will be used against you by the side that already has numbers. There comes a point when you have to understand that what personally benefits you may not be healthy for the whole game mode.

>

> At some point I've given up trying to explain this to players. They don't see how fighting over objectives during prime times has stagnated. It is almost as if they've never played WvW before defense and AC damage was buffed or at least don't remember it. Or the third possibility is that this is what remains of the WvW population after so many have quit.

 

The number of fights is primarily tied to relative populations and all other factors are minor in comparison.

 

Case in point , the server we were on was usually t4 sometimes jumping to t3. In spite of AC damage we had PLENTY of fights and in particular when defending or attacking t3 structures. Due to lack of population, when outnumbered and doing map call for help few would show up to defend or attack a t1 structure as it considered "paper" and was easier to flip back. When it was t3 we would have all manner show up to defend many running back to lords to defend several times over on being downed. We also had a whole lot of fights at camps in order to keep those supplies running.

 

We are now linked to a server that has pushed us up in tiers. All Bls full or queued for a good part of the day.

 

I am not seeing MORE fights. I am seeing less fights because we tend to outnumber the opponent. Anything they can take we can flip back easily so they either avoid BLs where they always outnumbered are avoid fights because they do not want to be steamrolled by a larger group and I do not blame them one whit. If the only option they have is sit on ACS then it not because ACs op. It is because having a greater population across all Bls' is OP.

 

The only real fights I have seen happen on one BL at most where the enemy can focus forces and this blob on blob stuff is less "fun" then facing YB on Arrowcarts.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else.

>

> > > The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job.

> >

> > This. Basically Arrow Carts break things when things are equal, while unequal situations like 1:10 are broken anyways. For the sake of balance, we need to balance things over the situations we can control. If a system fails under ideal circumstances (everything is even) then it is inherently broken and will fail everywhere one way or another.

>

> Just to add to this, people don't seem to remember when ACs originally had their damage buffed. The response was to bring larger zergs with Omega golem rushes to take things. We started using the term blob in place of zerg about then. Then everyone cried that defense needed buffing so HoT came out with the tactivators, shield gens, and other things that nerfed the omega golems. Basically this chased a large amount of players away from the game. Counterintuitively, you have to nerf defense if you want smaller numbers of attackers to defend against and give a greater chance to small havoc groups to be able to play again (that variety to WvW that all but disappeared.)

>

> TLDR: Buffing defense means offense has to be bigger as a counter.

>

 

Man, HoT was such a terrible expansion. I think it did the most damage out of anything.

 

Thanks for elaborating on these points though. Not everyone that wants arrow carts nerfed wants to karma train all the time. Blobs happen because of defense being too strong.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else.

> >

> > > > The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job.

> > >

> > > This. Basically Arrow Carts break things when things are equal, while unequal situations like 1:10 are broken anyways. For the sake of balance, we need to balance things over the situations we can control. If a system fails under ideal circumstances (everything is even) then it is inherently broken and will fail everywhere one way or another.

> >

> > Just to add to this, people don't seem to remember when ACs originally had their damage buffed. The response was to bring larger zergs with Omega golem rushes to take things. We started using the term blob in place of zerg about then. Then everyone cried that defense needed buffing so HoT came out with the tactivators, shield gens, and other things that nerfed the omega golems. Basically this chased a large amount of players away from the game. Counterintuitively, you have to nerf defense if you want smaller numbers of attackers to defend against and give a greater chance to small havoc groups to be able to play again (that variety to WvW that all but disappeared.)

> >

> > TLDR: Buffing defense means offense has to be bigger as a counter.

> >

>

> Man, HoT was such a terrible expansion. I think it did the most damage out of anything.

>

> Thanks for elaborating on these points though. Not everyone that wants arrow carts nerfed wants to karma train all the time. Blobs happen because of defense being too strong.

 

Blobs happen for easy loot bags.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else.

> > >

> > > > > The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job.

> > > >

> > > > This. Basically Arrow Carts break things when things are equal, while unequal situations like 1:10 are broken anyways. For the sake of balance, we need to balance things over the situations we can control. If a system fails under ideal circumstances (everything is even) then it is inherently broken and will fail everywhere one way or another.

> > >

> > > Just to add to this, people don't seem to remember when ACs originally had their damage buffed. The response was to bring larger zergs with Omega golem rushes to take things. We started using the term blob in place of zerg about then. Then everyone cried that defense needed buffing so HoT came out with the tactivators, shield gens, and other things that nerfed the omega golems. Basically this chased a large amount of players away from the game. Counterintuitively, you have to nerf defense if you want smaller numbers of attackers to defend against and give a greater chance to small havoc groups to be able to play again (that variety to WvW that all but disappeared.)

> > >

> > > TLDR: Buffing defense means offense has to be bigger as a counter.

> > >

> >

> > Man, HoT was such a terrible expansion. I think it did the most damage out of anything.

> >

> > Thanks for elaborating on these points though. Not everyone that wants arrow carts nerfed wants to karma train all the time. Blobs happen because of defense being too strong.

>

> Blobs happen for easy loot bags.

 

Some guilds blob simply because it is the only way they can actually win fights. An old SoS guild (TSYM) would sit in EBG spawn until they had at least 40 in squad and 40 in discord. It basically forced the map queue in EBG to blob because otherwise the commander would sit in spawn pouting while our EBG corner got papered.

[Israel.7056]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Every person that says that siege needs to be nerfed more or removed all together and only fights need to be done in WvW, I guarantee you are the first ones to run from a fight once they know they won't win or just flat out avoid the fight if the numbers don't look good. Honestly, at this point, I'd kind of like to see all of these so-called fight servers get together and see how it goes. I'll bet that it doesn't play out the way they think it will. It's just pure ego from tryhards that are killing WvW slowly but surely. "Balance" isn't even balance at this point. It's just people crying that they can't win so something needs to be nerfed, not balanced. It makes me sick, but nothing I can do about it. You can't bring logic to this fight, it just doesn't matter when it comes to small minded thinking. Everybody has to start playing how other people want them to play, not how you want to play. That's just not fair.

 

You can still sit on your siege all day no one's going to stop you from doing that.

[cobbah.3102]

> @"Stormscar.5489" said:

> > Spoken like a true blobber fights spam 1 way to go you have no real clue of the dynamics of WvW. Trying to impose how the "fight"guilds plenty of room in Eotm for the zerglings anet set it up for you lot .

>

> Haha spamming 1 works versus bad blobs of players like the ones whining that AC got nerfed. Idk how it is on NA (where you probably play guessing by your warped vision of blobbing), but from what I've watched the average skill level there is way worse than EU. Obviously you would think that you just 1111 in a blob fight. But watch or play with good blobs, or on WSR/Vabbi/Riverside, and you will notice how things change when players actually know how to play the game.

>

> > You really are out of touch hmm and the way out of control of the mess from elite specialisations which gives way to skillless spam1 so called fights and everyone says get good hahaha so lame , hasnt been fight skill in this game for a long time. Pirate ship is not skill.

>

> I have watched videos of core wvw gameplay, spamming 1 was literally what many people did, because the number of used skills and the reaction times necessary were low (look at Red Guard videos even). I don't think that the current meta is the healthiest, but it is harder to play by far compared to previous metas. And btw pirateshipping is mostly a tool used by squads with a strong range to thin out numbers at the start, after which you have to melee push, which is very doable if you and your players know what you are doing. This whining about pirateshipping shows you don't know anything and you're out of touch. Anyway, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, you're just a salty no skill rallybot.

>

> And yes, I do know a bit of what I'm talking about, as I lead both open tags and guild raids (not that you have to be a commander to come to these conclusions). What's your expertise, a masters in AC camping? Don't let the door hit you on the way out, hope your ecto farm goes well ;).

 

Hahaha you command hmm I run minstrel gaurd I can stand in ac fire it tickles I must admit and I believe wsr is the overstacked server why was that picked I wonder ,so watching someones video makes an expert sighh oh well if you say so ,

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

 

> You can still sit on your siege all day no one's going to stop you from doing that.

 

Your right, we could, if that was what was actually happening (it's not, but you stick to your blobs so you wouldn't know). Instead what he's bringing up is the fact that blobs run from fights they can't win and then those same blob minded people are complaining that people hide from them when they outnumber other smaller blobs 2-1, or 3-1, like it's their right to kill you for bags/war score. Siege gives a player a chance when they are outnumbered, but that's just it. A Chance.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

>

> > You can still sit on your siege all day no one's going to stop you from doing that.

>

> Your right, we could, if that was what was actually happening (it's not, but you stick to your blobs so you wouldn't know). Instead what he's bringing up is the fact that blobs run from fights they can't win and then those same blob minded people are complaining that people hide from them when they outnumber other smaller blobs 2-1, or 3-1, like it's their right to kill you for bags/war score. Siege gives a player a chance when they are outnumbered, but that's just it. A Chance.

 

Yeah I get it everyone's a hypocrite except for the noble siege users who just want to have a chance against the big bad blobs.

 

No one's going to stop all you noble siege users from being super dignified and sitting on arrow carts all day so you can have a chance of winning a fight you just might have a smaller chance of being successful in your noble endeavor now. I gotta say acs still seem plenty strong to me I don't think this change goes far enough.

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

 

 

> Yeah I get it everyone's a hypocrite except for the noble siege users who just want to have a chance against the big bad blobs.

 

> No one's going to stop all you noble siege users from being super dignified and sitting on arrow carts all day so you can have a chance of winning a fight you just might have a smaller chance of being successful in your noble endeavor now. I gotta say acs still seem plenty strong to me I don't think this change goes far enough.

 

You have this notion that people sit on siege all day. You are wrong. Many players do go out to fight, myself included. But when they are OUTNUMBERED and their structures are under attack, they should use siege to even the odds. That's what it was designed to do. It might not mesh with your play style and you might hate it, but that was what it was designed to do. If you want to blob fight, I'm not stopping you, that's your preferred play style. As is many players preferred play style, but you also expect people to just let themselves be run over and not use walls/siege to their advantage because it doesn't give you a "good fight".

 

And a good fight is what exactly? One where you die immediately? Or I know, one where you crush your enemies and get tonnes of loot bags... because every zerg fight I've been in wasn't good per say, it was one zerg just demolishing another zerg. There isn't even real counter play there, it boils down to how many scourge/spellbreakers and revs you have vs your opponent.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else.

> > >

> > > > > The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job.

> > > >

> > > > This. Basically Arrow Carts break things when things are equal, while unequal situations like 1:10 are broken anyways. For the sake of balance, we need to balance things over the situations we can control. If a system fails under ideal circumstances (everything is even) then it is inherently broken and will fail everywhere one way or another.

> > >

> > > Just to add to this, people don't seem to remember when ACs originally had their damage buffed. The response was to bring larger zergs with Omega golem rushes to take things. We started using the term blob in place of zerg about then. Then everyone cried that defense needed buffing so HoT came out with the tactivators, shield gens, and other things that nerfed the omega golems. Basically this chased a large amount of players away from the game. Counterintuitively, you have to nerf defense if you want smaller numbers of attackers to defend against and give a greater chance to small havoc groups to be able to play again (that variety to WvW that all but disappeared.)

> > >

> > > TLDR: Buffing defense means offense has to be bigger as a counter.

> > >

> >

> > Man, HoT was such a terrible expansion. I think it did the most damage out of anything.

> >

> > Thanks for elaborating on these points though. Not everyone that wants arrow carts nerfed wants to karma train all the time. Blobs happen because of defense being too strong.

>

> Blobs happen for easy loot bags.

 

I mean sure, but that doesn't make any sense to me. If you just want items, then PvE would have 10x the loot in the same amount of time.

[Karnasis.6892]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

 

> I mean sure, but that doesn't make any sense to me. If you just want items, then PvE would have 10x the loot in the same amount of time.

 

It because the people that want to blob fight and get loot bags absolutely hate PvE content (funny they are playing a PvPvE game mode) and loot bags are basically the only way for them to get something for the trouble (instead of diversifying and occasionally running fractals or meta events). Well except for reward tracks.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

>

>

> > Yeah I get it everyone's a hypocrite except for the noble siege users who just want to have a chance against the big bad blobs.

>

> > No one's going to stop all you noble siege users from being super dignified and sitting on arrow carts all day so you can have a chance of winning a fight you just might have a smaller chance of being successful in your noble endeavor now. I gotta say acs still seem plenty strong to me I don't think this change goes far enough.

>

> You have this notion that people sit on siege all day. You are wrong. Many players do go out to fight, myself included. But when they are OUTNUMBERED and their structures are under attack, they should use siege to even the odds. That's what it was designed to do. It might not mesh with your play style and you might hate it, but that was what it was designed to do. If you want to blob fight, I'm not stopping you, that's your preferred play style. As is many players preferred play style, but you also expect people to just let themselves be run over and not use walls/siege to their advantage because it doesn't give you a "good fight".

>

> And a good fight is what exactly? One where you die immediately? Or I know, one where you crush your enemies and get tonnes of loot bags... because every zerg fight I've been in wasn't good per say, it was one zerg just demolishing another zerg. There isn't even real counter play there, it boils down to how many scourge/spellbreakers and revs you have vs your opponent.

 

Right yes I've heard this before too. Fighting isn't stimulating enough the only real challenge is trying to upgrade and defend objectives because........

 

 

I don't build siege when I'm outnumbered. I can't stop others from doing it but I don't do it. If I cannot defend an objective through fighting then the objective is lost I don't care what the numbers look like.

 

More to the point you say you only use siege when you're outnumbered and I believe you but you must realize that there's no logical reason not to use siege all the time even if you're not outnumbered. You may not do this but I assure you there are people who do and there's technically no reason not to after all it's apparently supposed to be strong enough to give 5 a chance against 50.

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > A hypothetical to hopefully illustrate the problem: Imagine there were a class (Class iWin) with a kit so powerful that it could, with some regularity, win or at least tie in a 10v1 against even similarly skilled players on any other class in the game. In 5v50s this class would be called "the great equalizer" **at first** and it would sound like a good thing because it would give outnumbered people a better chance of winning **at first**. But then what would happen? After a few days of this every guild in the game would simply start running 50 of class iWin because it would be the obviously superior strategy. There would no reason to use anything else.

> > > >

> > > > > > The only equalizers that should exist in any competitive game are similar numbers and/or superior organization. If you cannot manage either or both of those you should always always always always lose and allow matchmaking to do its job.

> > > > >

> > > > > This. Basically Arrow Carts break things when things are equal, while unequal situations like 1:10 are broken anyways. For the sake of balance, we need to balance things over the situations we can control. If a system fails under ideal circumstances (everything is even) then it is inherently broken and will fail everywhere one way or another.

> > > >

> > > > Just to add to this, people don't seem to remember when ACs originally had their damage buffed. The response was to bring larger zergs with Omega golem rushes to take things. We started using the term blob in place of zerg about then. Then everyone cried that defense needed buffing so HoT came out with the tactivators, shield gens, and other things that nerfed the omega golems. Basically this chased a large amount of players away from the game. Counterintuitively, you have to nerf defense if you want smaller numbers of attackers to defend against and give a greater chance to small havoc groups to be able to play again (that variety to WvW that all but disappeared.)

> > > >

> > > > TLDR: Buffing defense means offense has to be bigger as a counter.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Man, HoT was such a terrible expansion. I think it did the most damage out of anything.

> > >

> > > Thanks for elaborating on these points though. Not everyone that wants arrow carts nerfed wants to karma train all the time. Blobs happen because of defense being too strong.

> >

> > Blobs happen for easy loot bags.

>

> I mean sure, but that doesn't make any sense to me. If you just want items, then PvE would have 10x the loot in the same amount of time.

 

Its because PvE doesn’t give that weird superiority factor satisfaction that killing another player does.

 

[Jski.6180]

I am still of the mind all siege should be assist weapons not prim weapons. So ac should give you cc support but not be the main source of dmg.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> they should use siege to even the odds. That's what it was designed to do.

 

Where do people get this idea that siege was designed to even the odds? Siege was designed originally in an environment where many player AoE skills didn't have target caps (and the poor elementalists spent hours blocking treb shots with swirling winds). Siege is for taking down or protecting objectives and the AC in particular was meant to be for area denial, not a population balance mechanism.

 

 

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> More to the point you say you only use siege when you're outnumbered and I believe you but you must realize that there's no logical reason not to use siege all the time even if you're not outnumbered. You may not do this but I assure you there are people who do and there's technically no reason not to after all it's apparently supposed to be strong enough to give 5 a chance against 50.

 

I don't think he will understand what you are saying here.

 

Karnasis,

What is to stop the 50 from also using the "even the odds" siege tool against the 5? Nothing. This is why siege isn't a population balancing mechanism.