WvW Arrow Cart Nerfing

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Basically, whomever yells the most will win. Anet will listen to them over everybody else. Right now Fight Guilds are winning the Nerf wars. And I agree, close this thread. It's overdue. Nothing will get resolved. The Fight guilds will never budge on trying to reach a compromise. I'm sure if it were up to them, we'd have no siege at all.

[steki.1478]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Basically, whomever yells the most will win. Anet will listen to them over everybody else. Right now Fight Guilds are winning the Nerf wars. And I agree, close this thread. It's overdue. Nothing will get resolved. The Fight guilds will never budge on trying to reach a compromise. I'm sure if it were up to them, we'd have no siege at all.

 

Tbh you dont even need siege if you can play well (and have comparable numbers on both sides of objective), but we all know that majority of gw2 population isnt capable of doing that.

[Israel.7056]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Basically, whomever yells the most will win. Anet will listen to them over everybody else. Right now Fight Guilds are winning the Nerf wars. And I agree, close this thread. It's overdue. Nothing will get resolved. The Fight guilds will never budge on trying to reach a compromise. I'm sure if it were up to them, we'd have no siege at all.

 

No compromises ever. The fighters should get their way completely and people like you should learn to become fighters.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > > This is a lot of what I am seeing now for T3 towers.

> > > > > > > 1. Enemy trolls tactics. Appears near tower the second invulnerable drops.

> > > > > > > 2. Passes sentry without stopping so you see them coming, but keep already contested, the run from spawn is on.

> > > > > > > 3. Tower scout mans arrow cart, no on in the zerg has health drop below 90% ever.

> > > > > > > 4. Can't disable through shield gens or even get one off in most cases vs the blob.

> > > > > > > 5. Total elapsed time from the dots appearing by sentry to tower flip...45 seconds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The blobs got exactly what they wanted. Yes, there are some terrible blobs who can't coordinate and fail VERY often, but I've seen tons of T3's flip in less than 1 minute during the last 2 weeks, because the blob no longer needs to plan and stay at range, they can just stand next to the tower, nuke everything down and flip it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How many people did you have in that tower to defend though?

> > > > >

> > > > > There were 3 in the tower scouting when the blob passed the sentry (this latest example was OW). When the 65-70 ish blob got to the tower, people had to run from red spawn to OW since keep had been contested for 8 straight hours by perma-stealth deadeye. The others were running from Anz. I was by the Overlook keep vista when I saw the dots at OW sentry. I used the mortar that was right there since it would allow me to fire a shot that would hit about the time they dropped rams. From the time they appeared as dots at the sentry, to the time the tower flipped, was 6 full power mortar shots. One siege disable was tried, but blocked, they died. Second was pulled off the wall, and died. The one guy on AC didn't even dent them, but they died gloriously in the fray 1 vs about 70. The tower was lost regardless imo, but it really should take longer than that to flip a fully repaired/fortified structure. The AC nerf has changed the blob behavior somewhat. They used to have to plan it out, because standing under arrow cart fire would hurt, they would lose people, and risk losing the attempt. Now, there is NO risk of death, unless some random gift of battle pve'er is out in their masterwork pve build watching it rain on them. So the superblob just stands fearless next to the tower, blobs it down in under a minute, and moves on.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is as it should be imo. I don't think 3 people should be able to stall 60 with some acs even if they have three acs perfectly placed. If three people with acs can stall 60 even for a few minutes then acs are way way way too strong.

> > > >

> > > > The defensive game should require as much manpower as the offensive game so that if you wanted to keep your stuff you should have to match numbers and actually win the fights not just sit on siege and turtle objectives all day.

> > >

> > > It is never going to happen in the realm of reality with the server imbalances as they are ,timezones have an impact and to think that because one timezone does not have the coverage they should just rollover and play dead or throw themselves foolishly into a seething mass of instant death is ludicrous to what end so they can feel good about themselves , it is part of the game and why the heck should attackers be given a free ride for the sake of the almighty "loot" which is of no significant reward. Everybody is entitled to play the game as it was designed to be played , its about time that the so called "fight guilds" do not have an impact on the enjoyment of other players who have also paid for a game that appealed to them , It is enough that so called allies give grief to players on the same server because they choose to play it that way and totally ignore callouts to the detriment of others . Think it is about time defenders voices were heard also , lets change the name of the game to Nerf Wars and then you think everybody would be happy yeh/nah it isnt going to happen, Long Live the turtles of the game the REAL players who value the core of the game as it was designed. There is EoTM for the ones that want to do things without siege and roll over mobs neverending. Go there and leave us to our entertainment.

> >

> > This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.

> >

> > Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

> >

> >

>

> But that isn't what's happening. Servers stack, bandwagon, and blob (time and time again). They map hop when they face an equal size force that beats them once, or, they just log off until there is nothing to really oppose them. Then, they ktrain down towers and avoid any other large force. Zergs don't even fight each other anymore unless they have to, which really isn't that often (except to defend their precious fully fortified/sieged up SMC), and won't attempt anything that takes more than a few minutes. Occasionally, bored blobs will attack a keep, but because they are 50+ strong fighting barely 20, or they already know there are no defenders. Even then, half the time they troll tactics, because no one wants to have to fight if an EWP goes off, or they don't feel like they should have to wait out the invulnerable. They aren't breaking in for "great open field combat", they siege from fortified positions that the enemy has no chance at attacking, and when they desiege everything from max treb range because there are a few defenders, they rush in and blob it down. When there are no defenders, they just drop obsecene amounts of siege, nuke down the wall and flip it in a minute.

>

> The glory days of skilled guilds fighting vs larger numbers to prove their prowess is gone. This game was about the structures anyway. Fighting to take them, and fighting to defend them. Now, people just want them flipped as fast as possible for loot/wxp, and aren't interested in showing their skill, just their numbers.

>

> I see it in every tier from T1 to T4.

 

Im not a fan of server stacking but i understand the impulse. People stack servers because they want to play with other like minded competent people. No one wants to have to try to carry anyone i know i sure dont.

 

The problem at this point in the game is that most of the competent people are gone and so most servers seem to be filled with people who have almost no clue how to actually fight other players because they've spent their time focused on building up and defending the objectives with siege rather than the PvP part of the game mode which should have been their main focus all along.

 

I have been saying siege is a crutch and this is exactly what I mean. It was something players could lean on to win fights and defend objectives they would not otherwise have been able to. Once that crutch gets pulled out from under them even a little all the players who relied on it suddenly find themselves unable to metaphorically stand on their own two feet anymore.

 

If you cannot win the fight to defend something you should not have it. If you don't have enough people willing or able to try the fight you should lose. This is the way the game should always be. No shortcuts no crutches only fighting other players.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"cobbah.3102" said:

> > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > > > > > > This is a lot of what I am seeing now for T3 towers.

> > > > > > > > 1. Enemy trolls tactics. Appears near tower the second invulnerable drops.

> > > > > > > > 2. Passes sentry without stopping so you see them coming, but keep already contested, the run from spawn is on.

> > > > > > > > 3. Tower scout mans arrow cart, no on in the zerg has health drop below 90% ever.

> > > > > > > > 4. Can't disable through shield gens or even get one off in most cases vs the blob.

> > > > > > > > 5. Total elapsed time from the dots appearing by sentry to tower flip...45 seconds.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The blobs got exactly what they wanted. Yes, there are some terrible blobs who can't coordinate and fail VERY often, but I've seen tons of T3's flip in less than 1 minute during the last 2 weeks, because the blob no longer needs to plan and stay at range, they can just stand next to the tower, nuke everything down and flip it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How many people did you have in that tower to defend though?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were 3 in the tower scouting when the blob passed the sentry (this latest example was OW). When the 65-70 ish blob got to the tower, people had to run from red spawn to OW since keep had been contested for 8 straight hours by perma-stealth deadeye. The others were running from Anz. I was by the Overlook keep vista when I saw the dots at OW sentry. I used the mortar that was right there since it would allow me to fire a shot that would hit about the time they dropped rams. From the time they appeared as dots at the sentry, to the time the tower flipped, was 6 full power mortar shots. One siege disable was tried, but blocked, they died. Second was pulled off the wall, and died. The one guy on AC didn't even dent them, but they died gloriously in the fray 1 vs about 70. The tower was lost regardless imo, but it really should take longer than that to flip a fully repaired/fortified structure. The AC nerf has changed the blob behavior somewhat. They used to have to plan it out, because standing under arrow cart fire would hurt, they would lose people, and risk losing the attempt. Now, there is NO risk of death, unless some random gift of battle pve'er is out in their masterwork pve build watching it rain on them. So the superblob just stands fearless next to the tower, blobs it down in under a minute, and moves on.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is as it should be imo. I don't think 3 people should be able to stall 60 with some acs even if they have three acs perfectly placed. If three people with acs can stall 60 even for a few minutes then acs are way way way too strong.

> > > > >

> > > > > The defensive game should require as much manpower as the offensive game so that if you wanted to keep your stuff you should have to match numbers and actually win the fights not just sit on siege and turtle objectives all day.

> > > >

> > > > It is never going to happen in the realm of reality with the server imbalances as they are ,timezones have an impact and to think that because one timezone does not have the coverage they should just rollover and play dead or throw themselves foolishly into a seething mass of instant death is ludicrous to what end so they can feel good about themselves , it is part of the game and why the heck should attackers be given a free ride for the sake of the almighty "loot" which is of no significant reward. Everybody is entitled to play the game as it was designed to be played , its about time that the so called "fight guilds" do not have an impact on the enjoyment of other players who have also paid for a game that appealed to them , It is enough that so called allies give grief to players on the same server because they choose to play it that way and totally ignore callouts to the detriment of others . Think it is about time defenders voices were heard also , lets change the name of the game to Nerf Wars and then you think everybody would be happy yeh/nah it isnt going to happen, Long Live the turtles of the game the REAL players who value the core of the game as it was designed. There is EoTM for the ones that want to do things without siege and roll over mobs neverending. Go there and leave us to our entertainment.

> > >

> > > This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.

> > >

> > > Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > But that isn't what's happening. Servers stack, bandwagon, and blob (time and time again). They map hop when they face an equal size force that beats them once, or, they just log off until there is nothing to really oppose them. Then, they ktrain down towers and avoid any other large force. Zergs don't even fight each other anymore unless they have to, which really isn't that often (except to defend their precious fully fortified/sieged up SMC), and won't attempt anything that takes more than a few minutes. Occasionally, bored blobs will attack a keep, but because they are 50+ strong fighting barely 20, or they already know there are no defenders. Even then, half the time they troll tactics, because no one wants to have to fight if an EWP goes off, or they don't feel like they should have to wait out the invulnerable. They aren't breaking in for "great open field combat", they siege from fortified positions that the enemy has no chance at attacking, and when they desiege everything from max treb range because there are a few defenders, they rush in and blob it down. When there are no defenders, they just drop obsecene amounts of siege, nuke down the wall and flip it in a minute.

> >

> > The glory days of skilled guilds fighting vs larger numbers to prove their prowess is gone. This game was about the structures anyway. Fighting to take them, and fighting to defend them. Now, people just want them flipped as fast as possible for loot/wxp, and aren't interested in showing their skill, just their numbers.

> >

> > I see it in every tier from T1 to T4.

>

> Im not a fan of server stacking but i understand the impulse. People stack servers because they want to play with other like minded competent people. No one wants to have to try to carry anyone i know i sure dont.

>

> The problem at this point in the game is that most of the competent people are gone and so most servers seem to be filled with people who have almost no clue how to actually fight other players because they've spent their time focused on building up and defending the objectives with siege rather than the PvP part of the game mode which should have been their main focus all along.

>

> I have been saying siege is a crutch and this is exactly what I mean. It was something players could lean on to win fights and defend objectives they would not otherwise have been able to. Once that crutch gets pulled out from under them even a little all the players who relied on it suddenly find themselves unable to metaphorically stand on their own two feet anymore.

>

> If you cannot win the fight to defend something you should not have it. If you don't have enough people willing or able to try the fight you should lose. This is the way the game should always be. No shortcuts no crutches only fighting other players.

 

Yeah, I've said in a couple threads, and not sarcastically, that they should remove all siege but oil and rams.

1. Make it so only rams do damage to structures and the gate is the only way inside. Only ram damage contests structures.

2. They would have to figure out a way to make it so defenders can actually stand on the wall (or at least have a place to fight back from inside). Right now attackers can just stack endless aoe's while defenders can't reciprocate.

3. Since there would be no siege to destroy and players can not contest structures, I would like to see 1 or 2 classes be able to climb walls to get in to the outer portion of keeps. DAoC it was stealth classes and each realms hero class. Mesmer kind of breaks that rule here (cause portal), but thieves...and maybe warriors or some new class they could add in an expansion.

4. They also need to up the guard patrols inside keeps, and make them hit 3-4x as hard and run like the Flash with aggro on one pulling aggro from like 1/4th the keep guards. The risk vs reward portion of being able to climb in to outer, was the guards were so fast and hit so hard that players could be nearly 1 shot by them in 2 seconds anywhere.

 

The population thing is player driven, and I'm not sure Anet can fix it. Players just want free easy stuff, and the world implodes on them when they can't get it. Kind of like the Kung Fu Tea thing. Starting to lose hope that wvw can be saved especially watching some of what I see in game, or on streams and other videos guilds upload. It just makes me a combination of frustrated and sad.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> 1. Make it so only rams do damage to structures and the gate is the only way inside. Only ram damage contests structures.

 

Would work for me as long as they removed all the other siege as you said.

 

> 2. They would have to figure out a way to make it so defenders can actually stand on the wall (or at least have a place to fight back from inside). Right now attackers can just stack endless aoe's while defenders can't reciprocate.

 

Why though? Why not just jump out and fight?

 

> 3. Since there would be no siege to destroy and players can not contest structures, I would like to see 1 or 2 classes be able to climb walls to get in to the outer portion of keeps. DAoC it was stealth classes and each realms hero class. Mesmer kind of breaks that rule here (cause portal), but thieves...and maybe warriors or some new class they could add in an expansion.

 

Could be interesting.

 

> 4. They also need to up the guard patrols inside keeps, and make them hit 3-4x as hard and run like the Flash with aggro on one pulling aggro from like 1/4th the keep guards. The risk vs reward portion of being able to climb in to outer, was the guards were so fast and hit so hard that players could be nearly 1 shot by them in 2 seconds anywhere.

 

No thanks. Eso was like that at launch and it was aids. Guards were a bigger threat than the players.

 

> The population thing is player driven, and I'm not sure Anet can fix it. Players just want free easy stuff, and the world implodes on them when they can't get it. Kind of like the Kung Fu Tea thing. Starting to lose hope that wvw can be saved especially watching some of what I see in game, or on streams and other videos guilds upload. It just makes me a combination of frustrated and sad.

 

Well humans are a tragic species. That's not Anet's fault they just cater to it as do all gaming companies to one degree or another. Humans will generally try to follow the path of least immediate and obvious resistance. In this instance that means server hopping until they find an easy win. In the long run it makes them weaker but in the short run they get shinies.

[Chaba.5410]

This thread doesn't need a mod to close it. Just stop posting in it if you are done with the topic.

[Sovereign.1093]

the takeaway here is, take what benefits you and ignore what does not =)

 

treat it like how ben graham treats the market.

 

oOo

 

to take advantage of the ac, when you use it, you must have a fight team to attack.

 

acs do very strong, but by itself, not anymore. ac damage do not overlap. it is a dps now, now longer a burst.

 

disable, suply drain, etc.

 

you will be able to delay a group.

 

my group of 10, trying to take a t3 stuff as defended by tc or bg, takes roghly 30 minutes.

 

against tc yesterday, we resupplied 3 x and lasted 20 minutes.

 

anti personnel siege will always favor the user. and if a blob responds, it will be gg.

 

ac has been nerfed. if you run with us, you know how we simply do a rotation and survive on it while waiting for the wall or gate to open up. but thats just it, if plauers are used to sustaining under fire, they will be comfortable in the fights.

 

sieged up t3s. are in a nutshell, a pain. but i understand, players.need to open it up if u want a fight and that is the game mechanic.

 

if u want organized fights, pm each other.

 

i have no responsibility to the enemy. only to my allies.

 

i am sure there would be teams who would fight.

 

 

 

[Israel.7056]

I have to say I really hate your gaming philosophy. But whatever it just makes it more enjoyable to roll NSP whenever we face you guys.

[Sovereign.1093]

=) thank you for your bags. (past and future).

 

mag is t2 now though. would be hard for us to win in t3 because lack of population.

 

but if mag goes to t3, we can rumble again.

 

you do have cloudfly on jq our timezone. his blob is very strong.

[Chaba.5410]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> you do have cloudfly on jq our timezone. his blob is very strong.

 

Nope, he transferred to SoR or something.

[Israel.7056]

I was told CF left to IoJ first day of link. Would've gotten trolled off if he would've stayed no doubt.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > you do have cloudfly on jq our timezone. his blob is very strong.

>

> Nope, he transferred to SoR or something.

 

dang. he was one of the better spellbreaker coms out there. in any case, if that is true, we will fight them at reset.

 

@.@

 

time to bring my small group out of eb

[TheGrimm.5624]

Again, if the complaint is that AC's didn't make sense to damage siege than nerf the damage to siege and buff the bali's ability to damage it, but nerfing both, players and siege just supports the zerg and discourages people from defending. And yes I come at this from a havoc/soloer's perspective and not from a zergs perspective. I also still think this is an issue difference in people specing into zerk gear versus people running more defensive gear sets like pvt for wvw.

[Sovereign.1093]

zerkers are not supposed to tank.=)

[Israel.7056]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> Again, if the complaint is that AC's didn't make sense to damage siege than nerf the damage to siege and buff the bali's ability to damage it, but nerfing both, players and siege just supports the zerg and discourages people from defending. And yes I come at this from a havoc/soloer's perspective and not from a zergs perspective. I also still think this is an issue difference in people specing into zerk gear versus people running more defensive gear sets like pvt for wvw.

 

Discourages which people from defending?

[Junkpile.7439]

Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

 

it still takes a long time for a small group =)

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i ***use condi gear***. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

 

There is your problem: you should mortar naked.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

 

It just resulted in more players stacking even more siege and way way more siege afkr's... and less groung combat,. players are only pushing now if they have a mass zerg now vs a smaller group.

 

That's what gw2 has becomed.

[steki.1478]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

>

> It just resulted in more players stacking even more siege and way way more siege afkr's... and less groung combat,. players are only pushing now if they have a mass zerg now vs a smaller group.

>

> That's what gw2 has becomed.

 

It's because it's nearly impossible to flip something when you have same numbers.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

> >

> > It just resulted in more players stacking even more siege and way way more siege afkr's... and less groung combat,. players are only pushing now if they have a mass zerg now vs a smaller group.

> >

> > That's what gw2 has becomed.

>

> It's because it's nearly impossible to flip something when you have same numbers.

 

it is fun if near same numbers.

 

i be ppl st mag bl bay had fun when we tried to take it earlier.

[steki.1478]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > > Anet have ruined almost every siege. Can't even get good burns with mortar even if i use condi gear. Kind of stupid idea that capping tower take like couple mins. It should take hours.

> > >

> > > It just resulted in more players stacking even more siege and way way more siege afkr's... and less groung combat,. players are only pushing now if they have a mass zerg now vs a smaller group.

> > >

> > > That's what gw2 has becomed.

> >

> > It's because it's nearly impossible to flip something when you have same numbers.

>

> it is fun if near same numbers.

>

> i be ppl st mag bl bay had fun when we tried to take it earlier.

 

It is when enemy has random pugs and you have more organized group, and I dont mean an open tag on ts/discord since those also attract random pugs. Otherwise it's quite obnoxious to deal with enemy group while their pugs are freecasting from the walls and shooting all siege towards you. Luckily these AC nerf made it more pleasant to fight in such situations.

[DragonSlayer.1087]

 

> **This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.**

>

> Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

>

>

 

Nailed it.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"DragonSlayer.1087" said:

>

> > **This is supposed to be a large scale PvP centered game mode with light siege elements where players spend most of their playtime fighting other players over objectives. The core of the game mode is supposed to be PvP not siege turtling for hours on end.**

> >

> > Maybe instead of complaining about the impact of organized fight guilds you could you know learn how to actually fight and maybe try to join a fight guild so you're not always relegated to sitting on arrow carts to defend stuff? Just a thought.

> >

> >

>

> Nailed it.

 

"Suposed to be" ahahah, i laughed so hard when i readed that.