Poelala.2830 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is **NOT** balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage. > > On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things. > > The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price. You are aware that in most of gw1 most classes were considered balanced due to the vast array of builds they had an a variety of roles and map types that allowed players to fit into more than one strangled role, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Poelala.2830" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is **NOT** balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage. > > > > On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things. > > > > The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price. > > You are aware that in most of gw1 most classes were considered balanced due to the vast array of builds they had an a variety of roles and map types that allowed players to fit into more than one strangled role, right? I agree that most classes were considered balanced in GW1, I disagree that the reason you stated is why. GW1 was a trinity game at it's core, you had your heals, your tanks, and your DPS. That dynamic makes it easier to balance everything, because you aren't trying to balance a Monk's maximum DPS against an Elementalist. Yes, there were edge case builds that broke the mold, and I'd argue they were what made GW1 so great. I always enjoyed soloing Aataxes in the UW as a Geomancer. There were like two places in the whole game that build was useful, everywhere else it got facerolled by interrupts. It wasn't really relevant to the overall Meta, but it was fun. I think balance was lost in GW2 not because of the poor build diversity, though that was unfortunate for other reasons. It was abandonment of the trinity concept that caused all of this. If everyone is jack of all trades, and everyone has the same number of skills available at any given time, and everyone has both melee and ranged weapons available, if all that stuff is roughly equalized, then the guy in plate armor with a huge health pool wins. So you have to compensate for that, and certain decisions get made to do so, iterate that 1000x, and here we are, with Elementalist elite specs designed at their core around the idea of a dude in a robe going toe to toe with plate armor guy. I can still enjoy playing GW2, and do so frequently. I just have to enjoy it for what it is, not wish it was something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. But that's not really the playerbase fault is it? People bought the game to play an elementalist like in GW1, talking for general lines now mind you and during marketing stage in 2012, most of the GW1 playerbase showed concern about the design of the ele and how the devs could have ever hoped to balance it...**@Isaiah Cartwright** stated it would have be not problem..6 years from then and here we are..they were no more wise than players in the end. They had the time, they had the feedback and they had the devs to fix all issues..but they didn't out of sheer arrogance :" I am the dev and know better"...in the end that doesn't seem to be the case They changed the profession entirely since launch, nerfed multiple times and nothing get done...but ofc the clear message here is **take it or leave, we don't care, we got your money thx for your patronage** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > But that's not really the playerbase fault is it? > People bought the game to play an elementalist like in GW1, talking for general lines now mind you and during marketing stage in 2012, most of the GW1 playerbase showed concern about the design of the ele and how the devs could have ever hoped to balance it...**@Isaiah Cartwright** stated it would have be not problem..6 years from then and here we are..they were no more wise than players in the end. > > They had the time, they had the feedback and they had the devs to fix all issues..but they didn't out of sheer arrogance :" I am the dev and know better"...in the end that doesn't seem to be the case > > They changed the profession entirely since launch, nerfed multiple times and nothing get done...but ofc the clear message here is **take it or leave, we don't care, we got your money thx for your patronage** No, it's not the players fault, but I don't know if the concept of fault is useful here, either. They made a design decision, an effort to break the mold of every other MMO. I think the existence of the Druid elite spec is proof that at some level, they know that effort failed. The game was built around that design decision, though, and fixing it 'right' is probably an undertaking beyond ANets willingness to invest in. They've got a completed, if flawed, product, and they want to make money with it, so bandaids are the order of the day. So you have to either enjoy it for what it is, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar.1756 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? > > What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. And here another thing..why in hell give melee weapons to cloth class when you were not planning to give them additional sustain built in its core? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar.1756 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? > > What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'. Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky' I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > > > > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? > > > > What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. > > Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'. > > Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky' > > I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible?????? I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else. Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options. None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supreme.3602 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I miss my staff weaver damage :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > S/D weaver is impossible to kill the target with many condition remove > > Kill it with direct damage. Condis take way too long indeed if it works at all. > > The problem is not survivability though. It is the lack of damage and group support. In team fights, you can just ignore the weaver and kill off his team. On the side nodes, just sustain and save your cooldowns, he will never drive you off point (yes, depends on skill level and specific build, but that's the general advise). > > There are some issues with (reliable) condi cleanse only on water and prot only by arcane (for weaver at least, since almost zero auras)... but I don't even expect them to rework the whole class. Just fix S/D **a bit**. And make tempest, FA and stuff **a bit** more viable. For a start. Ele community just didn't get the latest nerfs... direct damage is the most effective，The problem is that the main skills are all condition damage.Obviously, s/d weaver has’t skills to make direct damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBeard.2873 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I am still just bitter that they nerfed CORE FA so far into the dumpster that it doesn't even exist anymore, just because they let air-swaps double-proc on weaver. They could have but a small ICD on air-swap procs, or decreased the CD of phoenix, or increased the auto-attack sustained damage, or just about anything, but they butchered a B-tier build just to kill another B-tier build because it had very high burst, yet they do nothing about current builds that can 1-shot people FROM stealth, and do far more damage than ele ever did. Honestly, I don't care if they nerfed plasma beam into the ground, or removed weaver, or did just about anything else. In their zeal to "fix" fresh air weaver's 1-shot capability, they made both fresh weaver and core fresh air unplayable. FA core was never really a 1-shot build, and was severely disadvantaged vs. other high damage builds. You could only realistically 1-shot someone if they ate: Dragon's tooth + phoenix x3 + lightning flash + air swap + arcane blast...and if you eat all that, esp Dragon's tooth, you deserve to be 1-shot. It always played more like a highly-mobile bruiser of types, that got some good opening damage, but then had to kite and whittle you down with air-swaps and autos or else gtfo. It was such a fun build, but...ANet has no idea how to balance the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar.1756 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > > > > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > > > > > > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? > > > > > > What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. > > > > Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'. > > > > Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky' > > > > I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible?????? > > I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else. > > Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options. > > None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change. Was giving thought to your post. Do you think if GW2 introduces a new trait line only exclusively for PvP, they can fix the old traits and balance everything out again? What are your thoughts on that blueprint plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theros.1390 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Sword Weaver is easy to play and survive too well even when played bad. Good survivability doesn't mean easy to play. Sword weaver is a close range fighter, relies a LOT on Protection, and if he wants to recover, he has to go for Riptide and then, explode it with earthen vortex/earthquake, making Weaver movements very predictable. Riptide is still a "powerfull" skill (and dodge, sure), but it's healing has been decrease by 66% a few months ago, just in case. And also : the sword still tickles and do an average of 2-3k for the biggest hits. Dagger do more, with 4-5k. To me, Sword weaver is more balanced than ever. Some other class still need a damages normalization. (aka S/S rev, Souldbeast (worldy Impact), Warri : (Full counter, I often do 10k+ on foes who arent under Protection, and Rampage, overall. I run war, and I think this "onepush I win button" just shouldnt exist) Deadeye (13k+ by double tap, 17k+ on DJ.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > @"Quasar.1756" said: > > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > > > @"LazySummer.2568" said: > > > > > > > > @"Javelin.7960" said: > > > > > > > > It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers. > > > > > > > > > > > > JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable. > > > > > > > > > > Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why? > > > > > > > > What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation. > > > > > > Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'. > > > > > > Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky' > > > > > > I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible?????? > > > > I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else. > > > > Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options. > > > > None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change. > > Was giving thought to your post. > > Do you think if GW2 introduces a new trait line only exclusively for PvP, they can fix the old traits and balance everything out again? > > What are your thoughts on that blueprint plan? That would be one way to fix it, sure, but we're back to skills/traits being used to overcome a toughness deficit that is normally dealt with by simple distance. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, the impossible compromise all of us Elementalists have been dealing with forever, is built right in to the class. Normally, in a typical trinity MMO, the DPS spends their time trying to keep their distance, and the Tank spends their time trying to close it. Who is trying to keep their distance in GW2? It's not just an Ele problem, even Rangers are front-line combatants. IMO, it's not PvP that's the problem, it's WvW. I enjoy the hell out of WvW, just to be clear; when you're in a good zerg with a good commander, it's epic and fun. But the choices that have been made in an attempt to balance WvW are at the core of why all the other game modes are so difficult to get right, especially for Elementalist. Not that I believe there is a remote possibility this will happen, but what I'd like to see them do is break WvW from the normal game. Give it a ground-up redesign, and once that's done, do the same for PvP/PvE, removing all the design compromises that were made to create a WvW environment that didn't suck. Without WvW, the distance damage problem is basically a non-issue; elementalists/rangers/etc can go back to being distance, DPS focused classes, they no longer need stupid high sustain to avoid becoming a smudge in the dirt, and the building blocks of a balance-able situation are restored. Just my .02c, I don't believe an Elementalist with <12k HP, and effectively no armor reduction, trading melee strikes with a Warrior who has >19k HP and the highest latent armor reduction in the game, can ever be a balanced scenario, given that they both have an equal number of skills and major/minor traits. At best, an illusion of balance is created, where the Elementalist has his skills and traitlines inflated in power to offset the imbalance, but now the Ele is OP against other cloth classes, and the cycle begins. This is basically the point Elementalist has been stuck spinning endlessly around since the game went live. Distance was the answer, it's always been the answer, but WvW required them to look for another one, and it didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 > @"Im Too Godlike.5629" said: > Top 20 NA right now playing the oldschool heal tempest with minor tweaks to adjust for the current meta..... > tl:dr get better Can i have your build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Sad things is oldschool healing tempest only works vs non meta groups and they just dont happen any more its all about burst dmg and only barrier going to stop that or aigese. You could heal 1 billion per sec and it means nothing if ppl are getting burst down in a scorge rev bomb. (The real problem is the scorge is both the counter and reason for the meta atm.) Maybe if tempest had barrier or the ability to give out aiges but only weaver gets self barrier there no real support barrier on ele at all the only real support tool in gw2 now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaid Zhem.6508 Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Riptide was too OP, but now the rotation with earth 2-4-5 is so predictable riptide is useless for Heal as you won't combo the field without a cc in your face or a good pressure, it's no more just a simple evade with a cleansing wiht trait. In general the "gameplay" around combos is completely outdated with ele, each class also earn combo finishers but mostly powercreep and 10+ mights etc wiht minor traits or single skill. The nerfs on #3 air/water and water/earth completely broke the skills; projectiles was already too slow, too short, ... now you can't touch anyhing if it's not in a small corner. Dual skills are not that bad, but a simple sidestep of the target can avoide that skill. Really annoying when it doesn"t triffer because the enemy cross your body. They need better radius or target the ennemie. And the 4s stab on stances is a joke. So yeah, "easy to play" weaver sword, may be; but what's the cost ? Playing mender as a capholder spamming dodges ? Sword is trash, sustain is trash in general; without Water spec, without Arcane spec, without healing power/vitality/toughness. Every other melee class/build as more range, more sustain without investing that much in healing/vitality. Just compare Holo and Weaver sword, or SB and weaver; tell me more how easy it is to play weaver, tell me how to kill Holo or SB, even Reaper, Mesmer, Soulbeast ... without a long and painful fight ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik.7560 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 August 7 patch, still ded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloadsoaked.6792 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Ele is not meta in raids? not powerful in pve? hm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaid Zhem.6508 Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 People have old habits of elem. But "best benchmark dps on large hitbox "when half the DPS come from FGS, now remove FGS; well done, Revenant can do same, thief can do same, guard can do same ... Still a good spot, not the only one in the spot. That's the problem, they create a DPS spec for an already main DPS class in Pve after they already nerf tempest, and ... "Oh sh**t, too OP, let's nerf staff, core elem etc". And one mode, a group content, where you get carried because you have nothing to offer but DPS or to survive, versus pvp - wvw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 You have to keep in mind, they seem to like to balance the classes around raiding which is the absolute worst possible thing they can do as only a fraction of a fraction of the player base participates in it. It's not just ele but every other class seems to either be nerfed or buffed based on their capability against raid boss HP sponges. They should really return all the classes to their original status at PoF launch and then continue to buff (instead of nerf), based on how each class performs against each other. Take meteor as a classic example; originally it did good dps to raid bosses but then they nerfed it. But before they nerfed it they broke it making it a bane to deal with in WvW. Then they reduced it to the damage they felt was appropriate making it like a nice hot summers night shower to stand in. But why was it ever touched in the first place? Because it did a lot of damage to raid bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxwellM.2075 Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Why even nerf it for raiding though? Ele rotatations are as braindead as other classes and they only bring DPS. No one wants ele now because they are harder to play for equal or less damage. That’s not balance that’s nerfing too hard. Other classes can put up huge numbers while providing utility but ele kust has damage and it’s not even the best. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poelala.2830 Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 > @"Bloadsoaked.6792" said: > Ele is not meta in raids? not powerful in pve? hm.... Your confusion is very understandable because Arenanet decided to move this from the PvP forum to the Elementalist forum. The context of this post is PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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