Lyssa's role and the gods' abandomnent

[Imperadordf.2687]

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > @"Cristalyan.5728" Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate Balthazar's power. We literally saw them consuming the magic released by Balth's death.

> > >

> > > Kralkatorrik and Aurene only ate the magic energy of Balthazar. We know that the magic contained in one entity is not enough to destroy the world - we already killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

> > > The question was what happened with the **divine power** of Balthazar. According to the lore and Kormir's statements this kind of power can destroy the world if left free.

> >

> > I couldn't find anything about that "Divine Power" you're talking about. Would you mind sharing source?

>

> It goes back to Nightfall, but Kormir [gets into it here.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum) Or to quote from GW1: ["At the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria."](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls#Entries) Kormir dealt with that by absorbing Abaddon's power- his godhood- before it could run rampant. However, when we meet her in PoF, she tells us that Balthazar has already been stripped of that power, something [our character had already suspected since the start of Flashpoint](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project#At_Rata_Novus), since looking at a god is supposed to be a blinding experience.

 

I was going to say that, if I knew that divine power existed. He's been stripped. Thank you for the info though.

[Rockin Twilight Sparkle.26]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Nah, what has forgetting the gods done for any Tyrian? It's reduced the Charr into an avaricious, bloodthirsty, despotic hereditary dynasty whose only contribution to Tyria comes in the form of periodic attempted genocides and slavery. The Norn aren't capable of organizing a decent society on their own, wandering from place to place with motivations and intentions that vary so wildly that they lack almost any unified coherence or morality. The Asura cannot, and will not, move beyond their limited view of the Eternal Alchemy as something to be examined in it's completeness and continually drive towards that singular focus with little regard to anything or anyone around them. Only the Sylvari are yet to be seen, and they haven't been around long enough to distance themselves from religion.

>

> The Gods couldn't of really impacted our world post-dragon in any way that didn't risk destroying it, and beforehand they were the primary force that kept Tyria running like a smoothly oiled machine. Their ideas, beliefs, and structure have allowed humanity to become the only race that is genuinely heroic. Where every other race is a nominal hero, a villain protagonist, or anti-hero, humans genuinely believe in something greater then themselves and petty mortality. Without the gods, they would of slipped into the same moral degeneracy as everyone else.

 

Charr didn't forget their 'gods,' they killed them because they were false: They were idols utilized by the Flame Legion to secure their own dominance. Freed of the Flame Legion, the other legions became better 'people' than they were before. Hell, most of 'em entertain the notion of peace with humanity, even after the Foefire.

 

I don't know if its commented quite as much about Norns who don't follow the spirits, is it? I guess you could say Svanir, but even they follow the Spirit of Dragon, which... oh, thats a case of following a god making them worse people though. Hmm

 

Asura are replacing the concept of a 'god' with a scientific notion that might as well be the same thing anyway and they're all honestly a bunch of bookahs

 

Sylvari have the Dream and their Tree, unless they decide to distance themselves, from where we get Soundless. While they're more easily corrupted, they don't really seem to be awful people

 

Gods aren't what make good humans good. Gods have been a very bad thing for them also

 

Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

 

Kormir: Kasmeer my dear child... You never needed our help.

 

 

I could also bring up how everything in Guild Wars 1 is basically Abaddon's fault (and that several things in GW2 are the fault of several pf the human gods) but... nah

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:

> Charr didn't forget their 'gods,' they killed them because they were false: They were idols utilized by the Flame Legion to secure their own dominance. Freed of the Flame Legion, the other legions became better 'people' than they were before. Hell, most of 'em entertain the notion of peace with humanity, even after the Foefire.

Technically, the titans were killed by humans first, only killed by a few rebellious charr later after finding out that they were weaker than humans.

 

Then the Flame Legion tried to find new gods, and claimed the destroyers as such, then they tried to find new gods, and determined to make one of their own a god (Gaheron). Meanwhile, the charr who "killed our gods" were more metaphorical in that killing, in that they went away from religion and turned to technology.

 

And tbh, the peace with human notion is not only rather in the minority (most begrudgingly accept it because their superiors tell them to and they're well disciplined), but is done out of necessity because of how many threats face the charr of Ascalon (humans, branded, Foefire ghosts, ogres, Flame Legion).

 

> @"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:

> Gods aren't what make good humans good. Gods have been a very bad thing for them also

>

>> Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

>

>> Kormir: Kasmeer my dear child... You never needed our help.

>

>

> I could also bring up how everything in Guild Wars 1 is basically Abaddon's fault (and that several things in GW2 are the fault of several pf the human gods) but... nah

You can't really say the whole of the Six make humans bad, when only three of eight+ turned evil (and even then, one of them turning evil was poorly written and just a plot copy of another fallen god turning evil).

 

Dwayna, Melandru, Kormir, and Grenth have all been beneficial for humanity, teaching for peace and true justice.

[Loesh.4697]

Konig said pretty much what I was going to say. The Charr have a racial ghetto built into their city, they beat, torture, and kill those who attempt to desert the Legions and build their entire society around warfare and pain. Their society was modeled after Pyre Fierceshot, a honorless revolutionary who did not want to be a hero because revolutions eat their heroes, it is difficult for me to see them a positive light to say the least.

 

I'd also point out with the Norn: The Norn revere the spirits of the Wild, but that's different from worship. Ultimately their legend is about them standing on their own and their accomplishments, for better or worse.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> The Charr have a racial ghetto built into their city, they beat, torture, and kill those who attempt to desert the Legions and build their entire society around warfare and pain. Their society was modeled after Pyre Fierceshot, a honorless revolutionary who did not want to be a hero because revolutions eat their heroes, it is difficult for me to see them a positive light to say the least.

 

Every large city will have a slums or ghetto district. And nearly every society will imprison, and sometimes execute, AWOL soldiers - charr are no different there (they certainly don't torture AWOL soldiers, the gladium father storyline never had him beaten and tortured, just executed via combat, which technically gives him a fighting chance to stay his own execution). And while their society is structured around warfare, it is not structured around pain.

 

Pyre didn't care about personal honor, but that doesn't make him honorless - he still honored deals with allies, for example. It is true that he didn't stick around immediately because he didn't want to become a martyr, but this was also because there was a world-ending threat on the horizon elsewhere, and once that threat was gone he returned to his people who were still revolting (it should be noted that his fate is unknown, but it is unlikely that he survived to old age given the lack of mentioning him after the events of Eye of the North).

[James Orland.9786]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

 

Same tbh

 

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> Queen Jennah is Lyssa.

 

My biggest peeve with this theory is that then what of Kryta's throne? It'll be a free-for-all.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"James Orland.9786" said:

> > It's been remarked upon that Kormir said "even Lyssa" when talking about the decision of the gods to chain Balthazar, but when Balthazar himself curses the gods, he doesn't include her (and he has her mirror in the first place). It's been speculated that this suggests Lyssa may have a relationship of some sort with Balthazar.

> > But what if actually she's running a long game? Kormir's needlessly cryptic remarks point at the gods leaving because otherwise this would inevitably lead to conflict with the dragons which would destroy the world, but on the other hand if _any_ god could remain in Tyria undetected by said dragons it would be Lyssa herself. And she's the goddess of illusion and chaos; while it may look like she was allied with Balthazar in some way, it may be the case that she used him as a distraction of some sort for some reason, while she remained in Tyria, disguised (I've seen theories about how maybe she's Jennah or Anise, very powerful mesmers themselves).

> > So I guess what I'm saying is, maybe she remained, and maybe she remained as a potential antagonist, who would be mad at Balthazar's death - but maybe she remained as a helper, or even a wildcard, unpredictable by nature. Although we haven't heard much about her, it does sound like her "style" to be wildcard-y and chaotic and unpredictable in just the right way.

> I don't think she remained. Kormir's Journal states that Lyssa left before she did, and I doubt even Lyssa's illusions can hide the fact she has an immense amount of magic from magic-sniffing world-ending eldritch creatures.

 

I mean, it's unlikely, but if _any_ god could do it it would be Lyssa. After all, her mirror hid _Balthazar_ from the other gods, didn't it? So it doesn't sound so far-fetched that she'd be hiding an even bigger trump in her sleeve.

 

> I'm also against the theory of Lyssa being in a relationship with Balthazar. Mainly because there's a lot of hints that there was a relationship between Lyssa and Abaddon; he had purposefully butchered Lyssan priests in NF via Varesh, he targeted her largest Elonian temple, both of which suggest a huge grudge, and Lyssa's Muse was the one who took the forefront of the speech to Kormir, rather than the avatar of the leader of the gods or the eldest of the gods (Dwayna and Melandru respectively) which is an odd choice unless there was a specific reason the gods (either Lyssa herself or the others) felt it was her duty to be the one to guide the heroes to killing Abaddon. On top of this, his Orrian temple had a ton of illusion defenses; for starters). Far more hints than between Lyssa and Balthazar. Though I guess the Lyssa twins could just have a thing for the bad boys...

 

I don't super care whether she was "in a relationship" with him or merely in cahoots - in fact, I would much prefer if she was playing some _other_ more important more interesting long game. The only thing that would make me more peeved at ANet than making her a villain would be making her a villain _because she wants to avenge Zarzar_. That would just be terrible.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"James Orland.9786" said:

> I mean, it's unlikely, but if _any_ god could do it it would be Lyssa. After all, her mirror hid _Balthazar_ from the other gods, didn't it? So it doesn't sound so far-fetched that she'd be hiding an even bigger trump in her sleeve.

 

TBH, that claim by Kormir makes little sense and feels a bit tacted on in an attempt to fill a loose thread caused by a disconnection of writing teams.

 

Balthazar didn't have that mirror when he was imprisoned based on the cinematic, and the most likely location he got the mirror was from the Orrian reliquaries in Siren's Landing, which means he wouldn't have been hidden the entire time.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"James Orland.9786" said:

> > I mean, it's unlikely, but if _any_ god could do it it would be Lyssa. After all, her mirror hid _Balthazar_ from the other gods, didn't it? So it doesn't sound so far-fetched that she'd be hiding an even bigger trump in her sleeve.

>

> TBH, that claim by Kormir makes little sense and feels a bit tacted on in an attempt to fill a loose thread caused by a disconnection of writing teams.

>

> Balthazar didn't have that mirror when he was imprisoned based on the cinematic, and the most likely location he got the mirror was from the Orrian reliquaries in Siren's Landing, which means he wouldn't have been hidden the entire time.

 

It’s possible that he received the mirror from Lyssa too. There is so many unknowns with Balthazar’s story that there’s no way at this point and time to say what had happened. We also have to remember that if Balthazar got the mirror from Orr, he would have done so at a powered down state or very little power as he was disguised as Lazarus before consuming the Bloodstone if what the white mantle journals say, are true. That is a lot of travelling for a powered down god. Not to mention getting into these reliquaries with very little magic and all the unchained roaming about.

[norbes.3620]

Well just because he was less powered does not mean he was powerless. the PC is running around orr alone with only Little Magic too and i would gess that just from magical ability balth was still more powerfull

[Tyson.5160]

> @"norbes.3620" said:

> Well just because he was less powered does not mean he was powerless. the PC is running around orr alone with only Little Magic too and i would gess that just from magical ability balth was still more powerfull

 

Maybe he was assisted by another god or goddess?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> It’s possible that he received the mirror from Lyssa too.

 

If the cinematic is accurate about him leaving for Tyria right after Balthazar, then the only way this would be plausible is if Lyssa gave him the mirror before his imprisonment. Otherwise, even if Lyssa gave him the mirror immediately after arriving on Tyria, he still would have been on Tyria without the mirror.

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> That is a lot of travelling for a powered down god. Not to mention getting into these reliquaries with very little magic and all the unchained roaming about.

 

We already know he wasn't under an illusion when he arrived at the reliquaries to hide Lazarus' Aspect, per all the NPCs' dialogues of seeing him. And though Balthazar was stripped of his divinity, he wasn't powerless given he _opened a portal to Tyria_ and gave himself armor (again, if the cinematic is accurate).

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > It’s possible that he received the mirror from Lyssa too.

>

> If the cinematic is accurate about him leaving for Tyria right after Balthazar, then the only way this would be plausible is if Lyssa gave him the mirror before his imprisonment. Otherwise, even if Lyssa gave him the mirror immediately after arriving on Tyria, he still would have been on Tyria without the mirror.

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > That is a lot of travelling for a powered down god. Not to mention getting into these reliquaries with very little magic and all the unchained roaming about.

>

> We already know he wasn't under an illusion when he arrived at the reliquaries to hide Lazarus' Aspect, per all the NPCs' dialogues of seeing him. And though Balthazar was stripped of his divinity, he wasn't powerless given he _opened a portal to Tyria_ and gave himself armor (again, if the cinematic is accurate).

 

This is where I get confused on when Siren’s landing occurs in regards to the timeline. Did he go to Siren’s Landing, immediately after arriving in Tyria, getting the mirror and then going to Maguuma? If this was the case then he would arrived in Orr, got the mirror, went to the maguuma jungle taken the aspect and then hide it back in Orr later? The dialogue in Siren’s Landing makes it sound like Balthazar came through recently, not like way before Season 3 occurs. If Balthazar followed Rytlock out of the Mists, then Balthazar would have been on Tyria since Heart of Thorns.

 

Exemplar Kerida: It's been warded. Recently. Fire magic, not mursaat magic. God magic.

Exemplar Kerida: If the last aspect is here, then Balthazar came this way.

 

Did he come through Siren’s Landing twice? Balthazar dropped off the aspect in Abaddon reliquary, however given the dialogue from Kerida, she says he came through the area recently as it seems like he just missed him. My question is, why hide the aspect now? The mirror is already broken and he can’t masquerade as Lazarus anymore, so why hide the aspect other then to make sure Lazarus doesn’t get revived. We also have a battalion of mercenaries in Orr too. So did he send the mercenaries after he revealed to be Balthazar to safe guard the aspect?

 

 

[Dewsitine.3645]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

>

> This is where I get confused on when Siren’s landing occurs in regards to the timeline. Did he go to Siren’s Landing, immediately after arriving in Tyria, getting the mirror and then going to Maguuma? If this was the case then he would arrived in Orr, got the mirror, went to the maguuma jungle taken the aspect and then hide it back in Orr later? The dialogue in Siren’s Landing makes it sound like Balthazar came through recently, not like way before Season 3 occurs. If Balthazar followed Rytlock out of the Mists, then Balthazar would have been on Tyria since Heart of Thorns.

>

> Exemplar Kerida: It's been warded. Recently. Fire magic, not mursaat magic. God magic.

> Exemplar Kerida: If the last aspect is here, then Balthazar came this way.

>

> Did he come through Siren’s Landing twice? Balthazar dropped off the aspect in Abaddon reliquary, however given the dialogue from Kerida, she says he came through the area recently as it seems like he just missed him. My question is, why hide the aspect now? The mirror is already broken and he can’t masquerade as Lazarus anymore, so why hide the aspect other then to make sure Lazarus doesn’t get revived. We also have a battalion of mercenaries in Orr too. So did he send the mercenaries after he revealed to be Balthazar to safe guard the aspect?

>

>

 

Well, he could have come back to get some things from either his storage room or grenth's room where it was needed for making the forge before or after making the deal with joko. He then decided to ward his area as he know we will come after him and look in his room while the mercs are there to slow us down with a possible simple order of protect this area or die. Finally, I think that he wanted us to chase down the last aspect activate it to bring lazarus out and take him out which will buy him some more time as he has no longer any use for lazarus. Another reason he might want us to find and kill him is that lazarus could be able to challenge him and might win in a match against him. When we fought lazarus, we put an anti-mursaat sword through his body before he could form so that he is sufficiently weak enough for us to defeat him, but I am leaning towards my former thought as I think he just wanted time to bolster his position as much as possible before we manage to get to him and lazarus filled that role have ever long to that extent.

[Tyson.5160]

Seems kinda flimsy, seems odd for Balthazar to making these large trips to Orr and back multiple times, and without anyone noticing. Clearly one if the Queens noticed, but you would think they would have mentioned multiple trips.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Balthazar power cronology is a topic that fascinates me, to whoever interests i opened a topic about it some time ago, its trying to list his abilities since his fall from godhood.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36661/balthazar-power-chronology-on-ls3-pof

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> This is where I get confused on when Siren’s landing occurs in regards to the timeline. Did he go to Siren’s Landing, immediately after arriving in Tyria, getting the mirror and then going to Maguuma? If this was the case then he would arrived in Orr, got the mirror, went to the maguuma jungle taken the aspect and then hide it back in Orr later? The dialogue in Siren’s Landing makes it sound like Balthazar came through recently, not like way before Season 3 occurs. If Balthazar followed Rytlock out of the Mists, then Balthazar would have been on Tyria since Heart of Thorns.

>

> Exemplar Kerida: It's been warded. Recently. Fire magic, not mursaat magic. God magic.

> Exemplar Kerida: If the last aspect is here, then Balthazar came this way.

>

> Did he come through Siren’s Landing twice? Balthazar dropped off the aspect in Abaddon reliquary, however given the dialogue from Kerida, she says he came through the area recently as it seems like he just missed him. My question is, why hide the aspect now? The mirror is already broken and he can’t masquerade as Lazarus anymore, so why hide the aspect other then to make sure Lazarus doesn’t get revived. We also have a battalion of mercenaries in Orr too. So did he send the mercenaries after he revealed to be Balthazar to safe guard the aspect?

 

How recently is "recently" for someone who's been alive for centuries? Or a ghost who probably no longer sees the passage of time as living would?

 

: Sorry to be abrupt, but I'm looking for Balthazar or the Eye of Janthir, a floating...

Firstborn Dagonet: Oh, we know what it is. They've both been here, but you cannot follow where they went.

 

Dagonet doesn't mention any sense of time.

 

Queen Yasamin: The best news of all. Soon Orr will be ours and we can coax the gods back. Balthazar was a sight for sore eyes.

Character name: So you saw him? Here?

Queen Yasamin: Oh yes. He came to visit his reliquary, and I was the first to greet him.

Queen Yasamin: He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still.

 

Neither does Yasamin, but she does seem giddy enough for it to be "recent".

 

And then there's Livia's line, but as someone who's lived for nearly three centuries, a few weeks or months may still feel like it was "recent" in the same way a year feels agonizingly long when one's a child, but seems to fly by as an adult.

 

Though it is confusing what the order of events is, my understanding is:

 

1. Freed by Rytlock, sent Rytlock to the Heart of Maguuma and went to Tyria (perhaps also Maguuma? Perhaps elsewhere?)

2. Discovered the White Mantle plot (or somehow knew about it beforehand) and recovered an Aspect of Lazarus.

3. Wen to Orr and visited the reliquaries, gathering the Mirror of Lyssa (the one and only god relic he seems to ever use)

4. Went back to Bloodstone Fen and tricked Bauer via Mirror of Lyssa. Eventually performed ritual beneath Bloodstone Fen.

 

The main thing to consider is that he doesn't seem to ever use other relics; the Forged aren't ancient relics, and in the flashback cinematic he makes his armor and greatsword out of magic so while it's possible they were retrieved, it seems unlikely.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > This is where I get confused on when Siren’s landing occurs in regards to the timeline. Did he go to Siren’s Landing, immediately after arriving in Tyria, getting the mirror and then going to Maguuma? If this was the case then he would arrived in Orr, got the mirror, went to the maguuma jungle taken the aspect and then hide it back in Orr later? The dialogue in Siren’s Landing makes it sound like Balthazar came through recently, not like way before Season 3 occurs. If Balthazar followed Rytlock out of the Mists, then Balthazar would have been on Tyria since Heart of Thorns.

> >

> > Exemplar Kerida: It's been warded. Recently. Fire magic, not mursaat magic. God magic.

> > Exemplar Kerida: If the last aspect is here, then Balthazar came this way.

> >

> > Did he come through Siren’s Landing twice? Balthazar dropped off the aspect in Abaddon reliquary, however given the dialogue from Kerida, she says he came through the area recently as it seems like he just missed him. My question is, why hide the aspect now? The mirror is already broken and he can’t masquerade as Lazarus anymore, so why hide the aspect other then to make sure Lazarus doesn’t get revived. We also have a battalion of mercenaries in Orr too. So did he send the mercenaries after he revealed to be Balthazar to safe guard the aspect?

>

> How recently is "recently" for someone who's been alive for centuries? Or a ghost who probably no longer sees the passage of time as living would?

>

> : Sorry to be abrupt, but I'm looking for Balthazar or the Eye of Janthir, a floating...

> Firstborn Dagonet: Oh, we know what it is. They've both been here, but you cannot follow where they went.

>

> Dagonet doesn't mention any sense of time.

>

> Queen Yasamin: The best news of all. Soon Orr will be ours and we can coax the gods back. Balthazar was a sight for sore eyes.

> Character name: So you saw him? Here?

> Queen Yasamin: Oh yes. He came to visit his reliquary, and I was the first to greet him.

> Queen Yasamin: He was gracious and asked me to maintain the reliquary, but when he left, it went still.

>

> Neither does Yasamin, but she does seem giddy enough for it to be "recent".

>

> And then there's Livia's line, but as someone who's lived for nearly three centuries, a few weeks or months may still feel like it was "recent" in the same way a year feels agonizingly long when one's a child, but seems to fly by as an adult.

>

> Though it is confusing what the order of events is, my understanding is:

>

> 1. Freed by Rytlock, sent Rytlock to the Heart of Maguuma and went to Tyria (perhaps also Maguuma? Perhaps elsewhere?)

> 2. Discovered the White Mantle plot (or somehow knew about it beforehand) and recovered an Aspect of Lazarus.

> 3. Wen to Orr and visited the reliquaries, gathering the Mirror of Lyssa (the one and only god relic he seems to ever use)

> 4. Went back to Bloodstone Fen and tricked Bauer via Mirror of Lyssa. Eventually performed ritual beneath Bloodstone Fen.

>

> The main thing to consider is that he doesn't seem to ever use other relics; the Forged aren't ancient relics, and in the flashback cinematic he makes his armor and greatsword out of magic so while it's possible they were retrieved, it seems unlikely.

 

What we could be seeing here is the fact that episode 6 was an after thought too, which meant originally it wasn’t part of the narrative and was tacked on the end to give some closure to a few story lines.

 

I get your points Konig, but it seems like an awful lot of running around, as well as Balthazar making these multiple trips, seems a bit sloppy. You would think the ghosts would mention that Balthazar made multiple trips, I mean even the Sylvari noticed him. You would think hey the human God of War is running around Orr. They noticed once, would they not notice again?

 

That being said if this episode wasn’t originally planned in the whole story arc, it could explain why we get this weird disjointed plot with Balthazar showing up here, though it would make sense for a god to visit Orr.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I get your points Konig, but it seems like an awful lot of running around, as well as Balthazar making these multiple trips, seems a bit sloppy. You would think the ghosts would mention that Balthazar made multiple trips, I mean even the Sylvari noticed him. You would think hey the human God of War is running around Orr. They noticed once, would they not notice again?

 

Erm, I explicitly stated one and only one trip to Orr?

 

From Mists to Maguuma to Orr to Maguuma to Ring of Fire.

 

Besides, it makes sense for his trip to be before he could don the Lazarus disguise, otherwise why wouldn't he just use that disguise while there? Furthermore, part of why he went there was to hide the Aspect to prevent his ruse from being figured out, indicating that he went there before the events of episode 5, and between episodes 2 and 5 Marjory was always near Balthazar-disguised-as-Lazarus. This, in turn, means he went to Siren's Landing sometime before Episode 2.

 

So then, that "recently" comment by Livia _had to be months prior to Episode 6_, nearly if not over a year prior in fact.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I get your points Konig, but it seems like an awful lot of running around, as well as Balthazar making these multiple trips, seems a bit sloppy. You would think the ghosts would mention that Balthazar made multiple trips, I mean even the Sylvari noticed him. You would think hey the human God of War is running around Orr. They noticed once, would they not notice again?

>

> Erm, I explicitly stated one and only one trip to Orr?

>

> From Mists to Maguuma to Orr to Maguuma to Ring of Fire.

>

> Besides, it makes sense for his trip to be before he could don the Lazarus disguise, otherwise why wouldn't he just use that disguise while there? Furthermore, part of why he went there was to hide the Aspect to prevent his ruse from being figured out, indicating that he went there before the events of episode 5, and between episodes 2 and 5 Marjory was always near Balthazar-disguised-as-Lazarus. This, in turn, means he went to Siren's Landing sometime before Episode 2.

>

> So then, that "recently" comment by Livia _had to be months prior to Episode 6_, nearly if not over a year prior in fact.

 

I’ll see how many months it was in between.

[ugrakarma.9416]

**> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The main thing to consider is that he doesn't seem to ever use other relics; the Forged aren't ancient relics, and in the flashback cinematic he makes his armor and greatsword out of magic so while it's possible they were retrieved, it seems unlikely.

 

This could be explained by the damage that Zaithan did in Orr, unless i missed some statament saing that the relics remained intact.

 

Sirens Landing, was convenient, in somewhere they say that the Gods have brought Orr not just the bloodstones, but other magical artifacts from Tyria, this could be useful in a future plot, as pretext to return there.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I get your points Konig, but it seems like an awful lot of running around, as well as Balthazar making these multiple trips, seems a bit sloppy. You would think the ghosts would mention that Balthazar made multiple trips, I mean even the Sylvari noticed him. You would think hey the human God of War is running around Orr. They noticed once, would they not notice again?

>

> Erm, I explicitly stated one and only one trip to Orr?

>

> From Mists to Maguuma to Orr to Maguuma to Ring of Fire.

>

> Besides, it makes sense for his trip to be before he could don the Lazarus disguise, otherwise why wouldn't he just use that disguise while there? Furthermore, part of why he went there was to hide the Aspect to prevent his ruse from being figured out, indicating that he went there before the events of episode 5, and between episodes 2 and 5 Marjory was always near Balthazar-disguised-as-Lazarus. This, in turn, means he went to Siren's Landing sometime before Episode 2.

>

> So then, that "recently" comment by Livia _had to be months prior to Episode 6_, nearly if not over a year prior in fact.

 

Using the calendar from the white mantle journal, Bauer states that Lazarus showed up at 2 Zephyr 1329. When we go to Siren’s Landing it’s probably around, 120 ish of the Phoenix in 1330. So I guess 15 months is recent, I guess. Still seems weird and disjointed.

 

Edit: there was a dev comment advising that Balthazar hid the aspect in the reliquary to stop Lazarus from being resurrected and to keep up the ruse. Which would explain your above theory.

 

I still can’t help to feel there is a plot hole here.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I get your points Konig, but it seems like an awful lot of running around, as well as Balthazar making these multiple trips, seems a bit sloppy. You would think the ghosts would mention that Balthazar made multiple trips, I mean even the Sylvari noticed him. You would think hey the human God of War is running around Orr. They noticed once, would they not notice again?

 

Koning's theory aside, we should note the ease that "fallen Balthazar" appears in several places, especially in the attack of the destroyers at Aurene in the Heart of Tarir. And he is always floating.

 

The only thing I find inconsistent and strange is how Marjory managed to arriving at Rat Novus before him.

 

[Tyson.5160]

Alright so I’ve mulling this around for a while to get a basic timeline, using Konig’s theory and the dev comments.

 

1. Balthazar escapes the Mist from the same portal as Rytlock. Maybe shows up in Maguuma, learns about the Lazarus aspect and steals one if them.

 

2. Balthazar then goes to Orr, talks to the ghosts, gets the mirror, drops off the aspect.

 

3. Balthazar then returns as Lazarus and absorbs the Bloodstone, then onto the rest of Season 3.

 

4. Sometime later he sends a group of Mercenaries to Orr as well, maybe to guard the aspect?

 

I see some problems here. Did Balthazar replace the aspect he had that he took to Orr with another fake aspect?

 

According to Anise:

 

“Countess Anise: Our White Mantle prisoners have led us to believe that Balthazar has an aspect.”

 

Ok so they knew he had an aspect? If didn’t have the mirror, he would be in his normal form when he grabbed the first aspect.

 

Then we hear from one of the Exemplars:

 

“The White Mantle had all the aspects for the summoning. Why scatter them?

 

They had all but one. The one we got from Caudecus. However, they didn't know that. When the fake Lazarus rose, they assumed it was the real one and that the aspects were still viable.

 

Go on, please.

 

For his protection, they hid them all over Kryta. Exemplar Kerida has been tracking them down ever since we got news that the White Mantle had them. That was our first clue to their location in ages.”

 

Wouldn’t that mean they didn’t have two aspects, rather then the one from Caudecus?

 

They hid these aspects, however another aspect would have to be fake. Unless Lazarus took the aspect, however he didn’t have the mirror and they would have just given it to Balthazar...

 

Aw, crud...

[ReV.6097]

"Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

Examine the mirror more closely

- "The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. ""She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her"" <---

/exit."<<

 

 

Why do you think she helped him? What has Lyssa got to gain from aiding him, even with one minor thing? You guys have mentioned her dual sided nature, one side loving chaos. Is she like a Jekyl/Hide goddess? Lyss/Ilya. One side, compassionate and loving, the other, spiteful and desiring drama?

I just hope we find out soon...

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ReV.6097" said:

> "Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

> Examine the mirror more closely

> - "The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. ""She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her"" <---

> /exit."<<

>

>

> Why do you think she helped him? What has Lyssa got to gain from aiding him, even with one minor thing? You guys have mentioned her dual sided nature, one side loving chaos. Is she like a Jekyl/Hide goddess? Lyss/Ilya. One side, compassionate and loving, the other, spiteful and desiring drama?

> I just hope we find out soon...

 

Woah was this from the instance?

 

Damn it is, if you are a human Mesmer, this changes everything.