Lyssa's role and the gods' abandomnent

[Tyson.5160]

Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

Examine it more closely.

(if human mesmer)

The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. **She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her.**

(if human non-mesmer)

The decorative elements on it resemble those you've seen used by mesmers, and those are Lyssa's symbols around the edge. This was definitely god magic, thought now it's broken and has no magic left.

(if non-human mesmer)

The markings on it indicate it was powerful mesmer magic unlike any you've ever seen. Now that it's broken, it won't work ever again. It's trash.

(otherwise)

The decorative elements on it look like those you've seen used by mesmers. Whoever made it was a master craftsman. It's dead and useless now, though still beautiful.

 

The plot thickens.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> Sirens Landing, was convenient, in somewhere they say that the Gods have brought Orr not just the bloodstones, but other magical artifacts from Tyria, this could be useful in a future plot, as pretext to return there.

 

They brought those relics to Arah, and some were still intact. It was the entire premise of the Arah explorable dungeon, in fact, to find some of the more famous of those artifacts. Which makes Siren's Landing all the more of an oddity (I really do think that everything about that episode was a tacted on "oh we need to tie up some loose ends how do we do this" without actually thinking it all through).

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I see some problems here. Did Balthazar replace the aspect he had that he took to Orr with another fake aspect?

>

> [...]

>

> Wouldn’t that mean they didn’t have two aspects, rather then the one from Caudecus?

 

Given all evidence, then there would have been two aspects missing.

 

Though there's an additional oddity, and that's Bauer, who was helping Balthazar before the ritual and had, apparently, given one of the aspects to Caudecus. Did Bauer know about Balthazar, or did he think Lazarus was already resurrected thus what he was giving to Caudecus was an empty vessel?

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> They hid these aspects, however another aspect would have to be fake. Unless Lazarus took the aspect, however he didn’t have the mirror and they would have just given it to Balthazar...

 

My understanding would be:

 

1. Xera had gathered the five aspects one by one.

2. Balthazar stole one while Xera was still gathering the last aspects, hid it in Orr and got the mirror, returned and posed as revived Lazarus.

3. Bauer took one aspect and sent it to Caudecus (whether he sent it believing it to house Lazarus still, for Balthazar, or thought it an empty vessel and did it for Lazarus is unclear, unless he lied in his very journal).

4. Lazarus, appearing before the White Mantle, ordered the three real aspects and two fake aspects to be scattered.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"ReV.6097" said:

> "Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

> Examine the mirror more closely

> - "The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. ""She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her"" <---

> /exit."<<

>

>

> Why do you think she helped him? What has Lyssa got to gain from aiding him, even with one minor thing? You guys have mentioned her dual sided nature, one side loving chaos. Is she like a Jekyl/Hide goddess? Lyss/Ilya. One side, compassionate and loving, the other, spiteful and desiring drama?

> I just hope we find out soon...

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

> Examine it more closely.

> (if human mesmer)

> The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. **She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her.**

> (if human non-mesmer)

> The decorative elements on it resemble those you've seen used by mesmers, and those are Lyssa's symbols around the edge. This was definitely god magic, thought now it's broken and has no magic left.

> (if non-human mesmer)

> The markings on it indicate it was powerful mesmer magic unlike any you've ever seen. Now that it's broken, it won't work ever again. It's trash.

> (otherwise)

> The decorative elements on it look like those you've seen used by mesmers. Whoever made it was a master craftsman. It's dead and useless now, though still beautiful.

>

> The plot thickens.

 

This is a human mesmer PC presuming Lyssa helped Balthazar, not confirmation that she did. We later find out about the reliquaries, and Balthazar appearing there as Balthazar to hide an Aspect of Lazarus, which no doubt would change the human mesmer PC's presumption.

 

Unreliable narrator is at play here. May be true, may not be true.

[Rasta.2371]

Maybe the humans are evil. It's awfully misanthropic, but if all of the gods are just bad it would add up. We don't know much about Melandru and Dwayna and what their goals are. I wonder if Menzies is pure evil too, compared to balthazar.. it's weird in gw1 we fought Menzie's army and for Balthazar.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"ReV.6097" said:

> > "Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

> > Examine the mirror more closely

> > - "The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. ""She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her"" <---

> > /exit."<<

> >

> >

> > Why do you think she helped him? What has Lyssa got to gain from aiding him, even with one minor thing? You guys have mentioned her dual sided nature, one side loving chaos. Is she like a Jekyl/Hide goddess? Lyss/Ilya. One side, compassionate and loving, the other, spiteful and desiring drama?

> > I just hope we find out soon...

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Broken Mirror: Balthazar's mirror lies shattered and sapped of its magic.

> > Examine it more closely.

> > (if human mesmer)

> > The markings on it identify it as powerful mesmer magic. The design contains Lyssa's signature sigils, indicating that it was hers. **She must have helped Balthazar for some reason known only to her.**

> > (if human non-mesmer)

> > The decorative elements on it resemble those you've seen used by mesmers, and those are Lyssa's symbols around the edge. This was definitely god magic, thought now it's broken and has no magic left.

> > (if non-human mesmer)

> > The markings on it indicate it was powerful mesmer magic unlike any you've ever seen. Now that it's broken, it won't work ever again. It's trash.

> > (otherwise)

> > The decorative elements on it look like those you've seen used by mesmers. Whoever made it was a master craftsman. It's dead and useless now, though still beautiful.

> >

> > The plot thickens.

>

> This is a human mesmer PC presuming Lyssa helped Balthazar, not confirmation that she did. We later find out about the reliquaries, and Balthazar appearing there as Balthazar to hide an Aspect of Lazarus, which no doubt would change the human mesmer PC's presumption.

>

> Unreliable narrator is at play here. May be true, may not be true.

 

Its possible, I just find it odd that we keep getting these odd Lyssa references. The mirror itself. The flavour text saying that Lyssa must have helped Balthazar. Kormir saying even Lyssa comment from her realm, the lack of cursing Lyssa, which makes sense if she helped him by giving him a mirror. We see Balthazar has a shred of honour by sparing Rytlock because he assisted him in the Mists.

 

Then we have the devs not wanting to talk about the lack of a cursed for Lyssa from Balthazar.

 

You would think they would just say, Yeah Balthazar got the mirror from Siren’s Landing from reliquary, mystery solved.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> You would think they would just say, Yeah Balthazar got the mirror from Siren’s Landing from reliquary, mystery solved.

 

Then there wouldn't be a mystery. And that's obviously the _entire point_ of these (that, and a lack of apparent communication between teams given how many Balthazar plots got tangled and forgotten).

 

ArenaNet had established time and time again that they no longer like talking about "potential plot threads" for the sake of "hey, maybe in a decade we'll do something with it." Hell, they're not willing to talk about **Bahltek** or other long forgotten plots from _Prophecies_ because "it's a potential plot thread".

 

They also long established that they hate "squashing fan theorycrafting". Both because they find it entertaining to read and because sometimes they get ideas from it.

 

While it's plausible Lyssa helped Balhtazar, these could also be a red herring, or something inbetween.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > The Charr have a racial ghetto built into their city, they beat, torture, and kill those who attempt to desert the Legions and build their entire society around warfare and pain. Their society was modeled after Pyre Fierceshot, a honorless revolutionary who did not want to be a hero because revolutions eat their heroes, it is difficult for me to see them a positive light to say the least.

>

> Every large city will have a slums or ghetto district. And nearly every society will imprison, and sometimes execute, AWOL soldiers - charr are no different there (they certainly don't torture AWOL soldiers, the gladium father storyline never had him beaten and tortured, just executed via combat, which technically gives him a fighting chance to stay his own execution). And while their society is structured around warfare, it is not structured around pain.

>

> Pyre didn't care about personal honor, but that doesn't make him honorless - he still honored deals with allies, for example. It is true that he didn't stick around immediately because he didn't want to become a martyr, but this was also because there was a world-ending threat on the horizon elsewhere, and once that threat was gone he returned to his people who were still revolting (it should be noted that his fate is unknown, but it is unlikely that he survived to old age given the lack of mentioning him after the events of Eye of the North).

 

I put a special emphasis on racial ghetto. It's a place that is last on the priority list and it's disgraceful in part because it's by another race. Furthermore deserters arecertainly killed and tortured in ways that humans would find inhumane for desertion. Vere the Coward when captured by his people was expressly beaten, disowned by his family, then forced to walk a circuit for ten years before being shipped off to a desolated hole. People who live in the Shallows/Gallows will comment that being there is as good as being dead, that it being positioned next to a junkyard is thematically appropriate, and that deserters will often suffer a slow painful death in the Bane.

 

I also would point out that Pyre himself explained why he didn't turn on you if he doesn't care about honor, only an idiot discards his best weapons. To Pyre everything was about gain and loss, what mattered was how useful you were.

 

Citations for the above:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Praga_Fiendhaunt

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vere_the_Coward

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gil_Grittongue

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > You would think they would just say, Yeah Balthazar got the mirror from Siren’s Landing from reliquary, mystery solved.

>

> Then there wouldn't be a mystery. And that's obviously the _entire point_ of these (that, and a lack of apparent communication between teams given how many Balthazar plots got tangled and forgotten).

 

Yeah, even just going through the Balthazar story there is some weird inconsistencies and plot holes to say the least, but hey no story is perfect.

 

> ArenaNet had established time and time again that they no longer like talking about "potential plot threads" for the sake of "hey, maybe in a decade we'll do something with it." Hell, they're not willing to talk about **Bahltek** or other long forgotten plots from _Prophecies_ because "it's a potential plot thread".

>

After reading the afc it seems like Bahltek was attached to the GW Utopia and his theme seem to fit too as a possible Mist traveller as well. Seems odd not to talk about it. Eventually we are going to have to use characters that aren’t gw1 related.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I put a special emphasis on racial ghetto. It's a place that is last on the priority list and it's disgraceful in part because it's by another race.

This can be said for any slums district, but the Gladium Canton is not a racial ghetto. While non-charr do live there, if they live in the Black Citadel, it is not restricted to non-charr nor are non-charr forced to live there per se.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Furthermore deserters are certainly killed and tortured in ways that humans would find inhumane for desertion. Vere the Coward when captured by his people was expressly beaten, disowned by his family, then forced to walk a circuit for ten years before being shipped off to a desolated hole. People who live in the Shallows/Gallows will comment that being there is as good as being dead, that it being positioned next to a junkyard is thematically appropriate, and that deserters will often suffer a slow painful death in the Bane.

>

> Citations for the above:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Praga_Fiendhaunt

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vere_the_Coward

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gil_Grittongue

 

Funny, you say they're killed, but all three of those are still alive, with no capital punishment given. In fact, two of them aren't suffering any form of official punishment. They're only given execution for serious AWOL. Similarly, not a single one accounts a report of torture.

 

And while Vere comments on being beaten (which isn't the same as torture, though both is admittedly inflicting pain), nowhere does that state to be the norm. And while he calls his end destination a "distant, desolate hole" it likely would just be a distant small fort with little hope of promotion (something which was **_VERY_** common throughout historical and even modern societies). Praga also seems to be a bit over-exaggerating the state of Gladium Canton, because we can see it is not nearly as bad as implied.

 

I think you're either giving way too much naive praise to our own societies, or you're overstating the hostility of charr society, if you really think charr society is so much worse than other societies that they. Is charr society the best? No, but it isn't some society with a foundation built on pain like you claim.

 

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> I also would point out that Pyre himself explained why he didn't turn on you if he doesn't care about honor, only an idiot discards his best weapons. To Pyre everything was about gain and loss, what mattered was how useful you were.

 

That line about "only a fool throws away a good weapon" _is honor._ He doesn't call it such, but he's basically saying "don't turn allies into enemies needlessly". At the point of the plot Pyre makes that statement, he has all he wanted except the Hierophant's head. He had little to lose and a lot to gain by turning on the PC at that time, yet he didn't - so much for "everything was about gain and loss".

 

Upholding deals made under desperation even after the tables turn, keeping alliances with former enemies, and rescuing his warband. At the end of Eye of the North, he even states that he would avoid firing arrows at the PC should they meet on the battlefield. If that isn't honorable, what the hell is that? Because by the end of it all, he didn't gain all that much for his continued assistance.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Loesh.4697" said:

> Furthermore deserters arecertainly killed and tortured in ways that humans would find inhumane for desertion.

 

lols, this kind of comparison is walking stepping on eggs in GW2. Humans in gw2 love religious sacrifice. In GW2, there is an effort to show that in every race has its brainless fanatics. Asuras make experiments with living creatures without much concern for the moral of it. in some parts this has up to _gallows humor_ as in the [Thaumanova fractal subject room](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thaumanova_Reactor_Fractal "Thaumanova fractal subject room").

 

> Inquest Technician: Let me out! This hurts! I don't want to die here!

> Elite Inquest Operative: Stop whining. I need these results, and in case you haven't noticed, we're running out of time.

> Elite Inquest Operative: Yes, the experiment will probably kill you. But it will also advance the Inquest's march toward total world domination.

> Elite Inquest Operative: Subject 6 is nearly ready. Now pipe down and take your medicine. Some of us intend to survive this fiasco.

> Elite Inquest Operative: Wait! you can't slime me to death. I'm your creator! Aaaah!

 

 

 

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I put a special emphasis on racial ghetto. It's a place that is last on the priority list and it's disgraceful in part because it's by another race.

> This can be said for any slums district, but the Gladium Canton is not a racial ghetto. While non-charr do live there, if they live in the Black Citadel, it is not restricted to non-charr nor are non-charr forced to live there per se.

>

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > Furthermore deserters are certainly killed and tortured in ways that humans would find inhumane for desertion. Vere the Coward when captured by his people was expressly beaten, disowned by his family, then forced to walk a circuit for ten years before being shipped off to a desolated hole. People who live in the Shallows/Gallows will comment that being there is as good as being dead, that it being positioned next to a junkyard is thematically appropriate, and that deserters will often suffer a slow painful death in the Bane.

> >

> > Citations for the above:

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Praga_Fiendhaunt

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vere_the_Coward

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gil_Grittongue

>

> Funny, you say they're killed, but all three of those are still alive, with no capital punishment given. In fact, two of them aren't suffering any form of official punishment. They're only given execution for serious AWOL. Similarly, not a single one accounts a report of torture.

>

> And while Vere comments on being beaten (which isn't the same as torture, though both is admittedly inflicting pain), nowhere does that state to be the norm. And while he calls his end destination a "distant, desolate hole" it likely would just be a distant small fort with little hope of promotion (something which was **_VERY_** common throughout historical and even modern societies). Praga also seems to be a bit over-exaggerating the state of Gladium Canton, because we can see it is not nearly as bad as implied.

>

> I think you're either giving way too much naive praise to our own societies, or you're overstating the hostility of charr society, if you really think charr society is so much worse than other societies that they. Is charr society the best? No, but it isn't some society with a foundation built on pain like you claim.

>

 

I would put emphasis on the phrase 'They felt a slow painful death was too good for me.' that indicates routine executions, and lines up with our own knowledge of the Bane. People are thrown there to die and as Praaga said, the Legions aren't in the habit of giving out second chances. I'd also hesitate to call the The Shallows as a great place by all indications, there's barely a floor, no roof, and it looks like the beds are just tossed about haphazardly on the ground while steam is pumped in from the lower decks through ruptured pipes. Will all the running water flowing everywhere from the pipeline i'd rather live in the streets in DR to be quite candid. When you ask a Vigil about why this is he puts it pretty succinctly. Gladiums Canton is the last priority for anyone and the Adament Guard are tied up in the war, these people won't get a much better quality of life until everything else is cleaned up first. On top of that it seems pretty clear it's a racial ghetto, there's a reason non-Charr citizens *exclusively* are called Plebians, they're a different social class from Charr and treated differently accordingly. When you sign up to live in the Citadel it seems likely you're sent there otherwise why would Grittongue point out that living next to non-Charr is a special form of dishonor there?

 

I think most GW societies are dystopian horrors in one way or another, but the Black Citadel is dangerously close to being classified as a lighter and softer 40k Hive World.

 

> > @"Loesh.4697" said:

> > I also would point out that Pyre himself explained why he didn't turn on you if he doesn't care about honor, only an idiot discards his best weapons. To Pyre everything was about gain and loss, what mattered was how useful you were.

>

> That line about "only a fool throws away a good weapon" _is honor._ He doesn't call it such, but he's basically saying "don't turn allies into enemies needlessly". At the point of the plot Pyre makes that statement, he has all he wanted except the Hierophant's head. He had little to lose and a lot to gain by turning on the PC at that time, yet he didn't - so much for "everything was about gain and loss".

>

> Upholding deals made under desperation even after the tables turn, keeping alliances with former enemies, and rescuing his warband. At the end of Eye of the North, he even states that he would avoid firing arrows at the PC should they meet on the battlefield. If that isn't honorable, what the hell is that? Because by the end of it all, he didn't gain all that much for his continued assistance.

 

I would say that's less honor and more practicality *except* that last bit which comes off as genuine affection. Who would he turn us in to? Could he even take us in a fight? I doubt it, and I don't think he believed so either. All he does is lose allies and gain, what? perhaps a modicum of respect from the revolutionaries he doesn't want respect from, all it does is doom his cause to death, I would say construing that as honor is...a stretch. You say as much yourself, he doesn't toss away allies needlessly, that's just not being a cackling supervillian, that's pragmatism.

 

 

[Moonyeti.3296]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> @"Cristalyan.5728" Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate Balthazar's power. We literally saw them consuming the magic released by Balth's death.

 

That wasn't divine power though. His divinity was stripped before he was back on Tyria. That was power he absorbed mostly from Omadd's machine draining Primordus and Jormag, and whatever else he gathered since. Basically he went from God -> powerful mortal -> supercharged mortal -> dead with Kralk and Aurene eating the supercharge energy. Not divine energy.

[Loesh.4697]

> @"Moonyeti.3296" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Cristalyan.5728" Kralkatorrik and Aurene ate Balthazar's power. We literally saw them consuming the magic released by Balth's death.

>

> That wasn't divine power though. His divinity was stripped before he was back on Tyria. That was power he absorbed mostly from Omadd's machine draining Primordus and Jormag, and whatever else he gathered since. Basically he went from God -> powerful mortal -> supercharged mortal -> dead with Kralk and Aurene eating the supercharge energy. Not divine energy.

 

To be fair, I half blame Arenanet for the confusion. All the promotional material emphasizes 'Oh you're killing a god!' it's a lot less epic then 'O you're...killing a really powerful human who used to be a god.' It's a step down from Nightfall. I think that's what annoys me about PoF the most, it had nothing on us literally plunging into hell to wrestle with Lucifer.

[RazielSpecter.6295]

Lyssa are two persons, right? What about 1 being good other being bad?