vesica tempestas.1563 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"blackheartgary.8605" said: > or... learn to dodge. listen... with all due respect. if you are getting hit with DJ, it probably means you were originally marked by that same deadeye. the tell is obvious. and if you see it you have moments to close distance and counter as fast as you can. if you have been hit with DJ, it either means a: you moved too slow to counter, or b: you were ignoring the blatant tell-tale mark. > that said.... learn to dodge a bullet. kthx > The tell is obvious is irrelevant. There should be no attack in pvp that one shots ever, that's the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > Let's nerf Deadeye then complain when the bunker meta returns because the thieves don't lend their services to pvp anymore, instead of telling people to dodge or learn how malice works.. > > > > > > (#)Whydidntyoudodge > > > (#)DamnyouPavlov > > > > Bunker meta was way more fun than the last few metas > > I see you clearly now~ > If you wanna press buttons and watch pretty things happen with no life drops, there's an indestructible target golem in the lobby. > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > dodge can be stealth for more than 3 seconds，It's the most disgusting design I've ever seen > > Aren't you a mesmer main? And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > The tell is obvious is irrelevant. ** There should be no attack in pvp that one shots ever,** that's the issue. What you're asking is infeasible. There will always be a combination of traits, stats, and gear vs another combination of traits, stats and gear that will constitute a oneshot without significant overhaul, and right now we are still in the phases of balance ideas where dodging to break stun seems appropriate. Furthermore. If you have a series of telegraphs that lead up to a oneshot move including but not limited to, voice cues and visual icons, "The tell is obvious" is _very_ relevant because it allows you to avoid the damage. Whether you were prepared or not, what your build was, what the opponent's build was, and whether you dodged or not are all relevant to the relative strength of a skill. A move doesn't automatically become labeled as busted because you ran glass and didn't dodge, for example. > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter You cannot has the bunker meta back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > The tell is obvious is irrelevant. ** There should be no attack in pvp that one shots ever,** that's the issue. > > What you're asking is infeasible. There will always be a combination of traits, stats, and gear vs another combination of traits, stats and gear that will constitute a oneshot without significant overhaul, and right now we are still in the phases of balance ideas where dodging to break stun seems appropriate. > > Furthermore. > > If you have a series of telegraphs that lead up to a oneshot move including but not limited to, voice cues and visual icons, "The tell is obvious" is _very_ relevant because it allows you to avoid the damage. > > Whether you were prepared or not, what your build was, what the opponent's build was, and whether you dodged or not are all relevant to the relative strength of a skill. A move doesn't automatically become labeled as busted because you ran glass and didn't dodge, for example. > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter > > You cannot has the bunker meta back. il qualify No combination of stats should result in a one shot hit against an averagely armoured player ever, plenty other games do in fact do this for very good reason. Multiple high hits is potentially acceptable if its not susceptible to lag ofc, but 1 shot no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > il qualify No combination of stats should result in a one shot hit against an averagely armoured player ever, plenty other games do in fact do this for very good reason. Multiple high hits is potentially acceptable if its not susceptible to lag ofc, but 1 shot no. But Death's Judgement requires multiple hits to become a oneshot, and often cannot oneshot bunkers unless they are sustained by protection and the thief rips it. To hit oneshot damage a thief has to peg you seven times with attacks that use initiative (give or take mark malice) and then DJ you within 10 seconds of pegging you on the 7th time to make use of the damage boost from premeditation, which is announced with a voice cue directly to the marked target. Also define averagely armored, because keep in mind the current Marauder Amulet was the original Berserker amulet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyraltia.4185 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > Let's nerf Deadeye then complain when the bunker meta returns because the thieves don't lend their services to pvp anymore, instead of telling people to dodge or learn how malice works.. > > > > > > (#)Whydidntyoudodge > > > (#)DamnyouPavlov > > > > Bunker meta was way more fun than the last few metas > > Why, was it due to the false sense of being good at PvP and people being forced into higher tiers just for participation? > > Because running around till the timer hit and whoever capped a point first won wasn’t any indication of skill or fun. Better indication of skill than who face rolled their 1 shot half second cast time abilities at eachother faster like the current meta. Least you had to use skill to break a bunker build it was fun and interesting to fight. Current meta is like playing Cs, walking around a corner and getting hit in the skull by a guy full autoing, it's not fun to fight, it's not fun to play because fights boil down to rock paper scissors of who dodged first because if you did now he ccs you and boom 15k plus damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > Better indication of skill than who face rolled their 1 shot half second cast time abilities at eachother faster like the current meta. Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > Let's nerf Deadeye then complain when the bunker meta returns because the thieves don't lend their services to pvp anymore, instead of telling people to dodge or learn how malice works.. > > > > > > > > (#)Whydidntyoudodge > > > > (#)DamnyouPavlov > > > > > > Bunker meta was way more fun than the last few metas > > > > Why, was it due to the false sense of being good at PvP and people being forced into higher tiers just for participation? > > > > Because running around till the timer hit and whoever capped a point first won wasn’t any indication of skill or fun. > > Better indication of skill than who face rolled their 1 shot half second cast time abilities at eachother faster like the current meta. Not even, but I guess people that need to be carried by builds wouldn’t know the difference, since every “one shot” build out there requires setup and the majority of the time aren’t even one shot and are multiple hits/skill activations. But I guess running around not doing anything till the timer expires is what some players think is “skill” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > Least you had to use skill to break a bunker build it was fun and interesting to fight. Current meta is like playing Cs, walking around a corner and getting hit in the skull by a guy full autoing, it's not fun to fight, it's not fun to play because fights boil down to rock paper scissors of who dodged first because if you did now he ccs you and boom 15k plus damage. Were you here for the bunker meta? You couldn't break the meta builds 1v1 if they were reasonably skilled. The game devolved into who capped two points first, because once you sat on the point nobody could move you unless they dedicated half their team. People were literally using "Just DT him" as excuses to justify the bunker builds at the outset of the bunker meta, like DTing doesnt require an investment that could easily allow the problem to just move to another node. This isn't even a oneshot meta. People do heavy damage in the current sphere, but in most cases you have a chance to respond and analyze your opponent before you get bursted. Some of those builds have a _particular efficiency in -avoiding- damage_ still, but it certainly isn't [die from some guy autoing] overall. We're going to need high dps classes to unsettle the nodebunkers and make them consider disengaging to keep PVP interesting. Being angry because you failed to pocket a dodge or LoS for a oneshot that takes rampup is going to do more harm than good in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I play mesmer so i have no trouble at all with Deadeyes, but I do wonder how other classes are able to deal with them. I imagine it is a frustrating experience because it's incredibly hard to lock down on them. They stealth and appear somewhere else any time you get close to them. I have the mobility and reflects to keep up. But without that, I would literally be a sitting duck to be farmed without a chance in hell of surviving. which is the issue other classes have. So I personally don't have issues with deadeyes, but I understand why other people are complaining about that spec. Even if you don't have issues, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else and understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyraltia.4185 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > > > Least you had to use skill to break a bunker build it was fun and interesting to fight. Current meta is like playing Cs, walking around a corner and getting hit in the skull by a guy full autoing, it's not fun to fight, it's not fun to play because fights boil down to rock paper scissors of who dodged first because if you did now he ccs you and boom 15k plus damage. > > Were you here for the bunker meta? You couldn't break the meta builds 1v1. The game devolved into who capped two points first, because once you sat on the point nobody could move you unless they dedicated half their team. > > People were literally using "Just DT him" as excuses to justify the bunker builds at the outset of the bunker meta. > I was here for it, and the same basic support warrior I've been running for 6 years killed bunkers then and it kills bunkers and mashers now. If you are seriously trying to say current builds aren't carrying players you're kinda delusional or not in plat at the moment. There are so many people in plat with next to no mechanical skill just following some meta build smashing buttons as they light up. Now personally I kill these people but these people shouldn't even be in my games to begin and it's obvious why they are, build carried because people in gold can't dodge and die to dumb ranger cc lock into wi. 95 percent of warriors in plat atm, all carried to plat by rampage, outside rampage they deal literally 0 damage and just run away for 60 seconds until its up. Please don't try to say builds carrying people is gone or any less than before, bunkers took proper timing on skills to prevent dying to any decent player, bad bunkers died instantly, good ones fought off 3 players and held caps vs bad players. Good bunker vs good bruiser the bruiser won 100%. The game has always been since day 1 a rps fight, bunkers beat squishies,, squishies beat bruisers and bruisers kill bunkers. Edit to add one thing, the reason why it seems so bad atm is because the lines between those 3 basic archetypes are being blurred way too hard by passives and abilities that just simply do too much stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > If you are seriously trying to say current builds aren't carrying players you're kinda delusional or not in plat at the moment. There are so many people in play with next to no mechanical skill just following some meta build smashing buttons as they light up. I never implied or made the argument that there are not current builds carrying players. Mirage is a thing. > Please don't try to say builds carrying people is gone or any less than before, bunkers took proper timing on skills to prevent dying to any decent player, bad bunkers died instantly, good ones fought off 3 players and held caps vs bad players. Good bunker vs good bruiser the bruiser won 100%. The game has always been since day 1 a rps fight, bunkers beat squishies,, squishies beat bruisers and bruisers kill bunkers. You'd rather someone be able to build so that, by nature of knowing their class, they are able to 3v1 other decent players in a capture the node game that is 5v5? Think carefully about that assertion for a moment. > Edit to add one thing, the reason why it seems so bad atm is because the lines between those 3 basic archetypes are being blurred way too hard by passives and abilities that just simply do too much stuff. I'm not convinced "Just dodge Deaths Judgement" is not the correct solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I play mesmer so i have no trouble at all with Deadeyes, but I do wonder how other classes are able to deal with them. I imagine it is a frustrating experience because it's incredibly hard to lock down on them. They stealth and appear somewhere else any time you get close to them. I have the mobility and reflects to keep up. But without that, I would literally be a sitting duck to be farmed without a chance in hell of surviving. which is the issue other classes have. So I personally don't have issues with deadeyes, but I understand why other people are complaining about that spec. Even if you don't have issues, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else and understand. I certainly get it, but I don't think that frustration is worth a nerf to DJ. They make me cry on my necro because I play reaper, but if I happen to land a pull on them they often melt immediately. My Rev can often port to them, so can my guard. My war can reflect their setup damage, My DE is backstab and thus their counter, I have the same range cap as them on my ranger. My mesmer is a mesmer. Engie has utility goggles/reveal spam, which disables DJ. I don't know Ele yet, so idk about this mu. Frustrating but Fallible is different from frustrating and infallible. There's ways around annoying snipers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omgdracula.6345 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > The tell is obvious is irrelevant. ** There should be no attack in pvp that one shots ever,** that's the issue. > > > > What you're asking is infeasible. There will always be a combination of traits, stats, and gear vs another combination of traits, stats and gear that will constitute a oneshot without significant overhaul, and right now we are still in the phases of balance ideas where dodging to break stun seems appropriate. > > > > Furthermore. > > > > If you have a series of telegraphs that lead up to a oneshot move including but not limited to, voice cues and visual icons, "The tell is obvious" is _very_ relevant because it allows you to avoid the damage. > > > > Whether you were prepared or not, what your build was, what the opponent's build was, and whether you dodged or not are all relevant to the relative strength of a skill. A move doesn't automatically become labeled as busted because you ran glass and didn't dodge, for example. > > > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter > > > > You cannot has the bunker meta back. > > il qualify No combination of stats should result in a one shot hit against an averagely armoured player ever, plenty other games do in fact do this for very good reason. Multiple high hits is potentially acceptable if its not susceptible to lag ofc, but 1 shot no. We should give thieves more stuns that do not have DR like how rogues in WoW used to be where you could just stun lock players from 100-0 then they will forget all about deadeye. I get that you do not like hearing that you need to get better. But that is facts. If it isn't deadeye then it will be mesmer loading you with conditions while in stealth, then popping out and doing it again while you sit there helpless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter > > You cannot has the bunker meta back. I will still complain about it at every opportunity as long as I play this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter > > > > You cannot has the bunker meta back. > > I will still complain about it at every opportunity as long as I play this game > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > And if I wanted time to kill times of 1-3 seconds I would play a first person shooter > > > > You cannot has the bunker meta back. > > I will still complain about it at every opportunity as long as I play this game > S o b e i t ):< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Hyraltia.4185" said: > > > Least you had to use skill to break a bunker build it was fun and interesting to fight. Current meta is like playing Cs, walking around a corner and getting hit in the skull by a guy full autoing, it's not fun to fight, it's not fun to play because fights boil down to rock paper scissors of who dodged first because if you did now he ccs you and boom 15k plus damage. > > Were you here for the bunker meta? You couldn't break the meta builds 1v1 if they were reasonably skilled. The game devolved into who capped two points first, because once you sat on the point nobody could move you unless they dedicated half their team. > > People were literally using "Just DT him" as excuses to justify the bunker builds at the outset of the bunker meta, like DTing doesnt require an investment that could easily allow the problem to just move to another node. > > This isn't even a oneshot meta. People do heavy damage in the current sphere, but in most cases you have a chance to respond and analyze your opponent before you get bursted. Some of those builds have a _particular efficiency in -avoiding- damage_ still, but it certainly isn't [die from some guy autoing] overall. > > We're going to need high dps classes to unsettle the nodebunkers and make them consider disengaging to keep PVP interesting. Being angry because you failed to pocket a dodge or LoS for a oneshot that takes rampup is going to do more harm than good in the long run. This post in a nutshell. Those with slower reactions are going to get frustrated. Those who are a bit faster will thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"blackheartgary.8605" said: > > or... learn to dodge. listen... with all due respect. if you are getting hit with DJ, it probably means you were originally marked by that same deadeye. the tell is obvious. and if you see it you have moments to close distance and counter as fast as you can. if you have been hit with DJ, it either means a: you moved too slow to counter, or b: you were ignoring the blatant tell-tale mark. > > that said.... learn to dodge a bullet. kthx > > > > The tell is obvious is irrelevant. There should be no attack in pvp that one shots ever, that's the issue. So you are saying the maximum damage of any attack should be what? 10,000? Given warrior base starts with 19000 health and thief base around 11000 are you suggesting a zerker warrior should be able to take 90 percent of a thiefs health in one hit while a zerker Thief can only do 50 percent on a warrior? Assume for the sake of argument we accept the premise that no one should ever die to a single attack ever. If this means the maximum damage that can be pumped out on a given attack is 10000 against someone in Zerker even as they wear Zerker , there would be no point in ever playing anything BUT tank as you would be able to easily outheal the damage coming in through a combination of more armor, vitality and heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > Let's nerf Deadeye then complain when the bunker meta returns because the thieves don't lend their services to pvp anymore, instead of telling people to dodge or learn how malice works.. > > > > > > (#)Whydidntyoudodge > > > (#)DamnyouPavlov > > > > Bunker meta was way more fun than the last few metas > > I see you clearly now~ > If you wanna press buttons and watch pretty things happen with no life drops, there's an indestructible target golem in the lobby. > > > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > > dodge can be stealth for more than 3 seconds，It's the most disgusting design I've ever seen > > Aren't you a mesmer main? Light armour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrakon.3108 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > I dont mind the damage itself, the issue is being unblockable and Anet dont care(game is made for scrubs mostly) to make block/absorption/reflect their own mechanics with their own counter, so the 1 button unblockable skills will bypass everything on that. > > > > > > It is to easy to high damage trough unblcokables since counters more than block. > > > > There’s more counters to the skills besides just block/projectile hate..... but that’s the difference between more skilled players and less skilled players. > > I know, but having 1 countering 3 types rather than make atacker pay atention to wich is target is using... its a slacker counter made to be easy counter for those effects has in offender dont need to worry nor pay much atention compared with the target. > > I dont mind the unblockables counter all those 3, but the punishing effects at least should be different. The problem is the "tells" of said defenses etc. are hardly noticeable sometimes, not resembling anything near real time action. Also being relegated to looking at little DnD card buffs on their hp bar is simply boring, lame, and should be reserved for card games. Some people like micro managing rock paper scissor mechanics I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Let's nerf Deadeye then complain when the bunker meta returns because the thieves don't lend their services to pvp anymore, instead of telling people to dodge or learn how malice works.. > > (#)Whydidntyoudodge > (#)DamnyouPavlov What is a rev doing? What is core guard doing? What is mantra mirage doing? What is Soulbeast doing? Bunker meta ain't returning any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowHawk.3615 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 do what they did to ele and make their only long range weapon useless. damage reduction per hit +60% dmg nerf overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPESHAL.9106 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 The strange thing isn't the extreme damage...the strange thing is Anet's schizophrenia. Not long ago, they nerfed Lich form because it was too much burst even with an extremely long cooldown. They basically nerfed it to extinction. They had also rid the game of many of the 1 shot cheese burst builds (shatter mesmers weren't viable for awhile). Now...they've totally flipped...they put these builds in the game that are FAR more burst...from stealth... and on much shorter cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuka Cola.8520 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 > @"SPESHAL.9106" said: > The strange thing isn't the extreme damage...the strange thing is Anet's schizophrenia. > > Not long ago, they nerfed Lich form because it was too much burst even with an extremely long cooldown. They basically nerfed it to extinction. They had also rid the game of many of the 1 shot cheese burst builds (shatter mesmers weren't viable for awhile). > > Now...they've totally flipped...they put these builds in the game that are FAR more burst...from stealth... and on much shorter cooldowns. That is a question i've been asking myself as well. Maybe there's a lot of people who've left/leaving the game so they're trying to keep em in the game with the huge power creep increase (cuz some do enjoy that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetPotato.7456 Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I don't mind deadeye if they play "fairly" and I can't really know if they are playing fairly since I don't know thief at all because I play my thief like I play my other profession hehehe :bleep_bloop: . But I do come across quite a handful of these "thief" or "deadeye" who are 99% invisible, even when they are doing the finisher*, they are invisible, even after they step in your many necro marks they are invisible, you know they are there because they appear for a brief moment when the marks were triggered , but some how they get to "marked" you and went into invisibility again and then your dead. ^^ how do you even counter that? PS: need to take away the ability to finish off a down player on all professions in invisible mode, same goes to engineer that goes mini mode / elixir mode because when you are down that is the chance you were given to fight to rally, having an opponent that you can rally off is really just does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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