Zerker Soulbeast meta not an issue for anyone in wvw?

[Abyssisis.3971]

The same can be said for every other class vs soulbeast.

[Turk.5460]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> Just because you can get killed from stealth doesn't mean you haven't options to avoid. You can get invuln over signet, you have high mobility and the highest range in the game which additionally is unblockable.

>

> This things here still happen. And I still don't understand why such things aren't nerfed in a day.

>

> 

>

 

For one, this screenshot is not from the current iteration of DE. That's from before the rework. now it would read:

 

xxx's critically hits you for 19,001 using [Malicious Backstab].

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is really old, and I'm playing mostly zerker stats here with a few Pvt pieces. I don't have any recent screenshots available because I'm away from my computer, but you get the idea. I assure you, I still take 7k autoattacks on my full Dire condi gear.

> > > > >

> > > > > And before you all jump on me for not paying attention. I know, I know. This video was just to show the burst potential. Keep in mind, you can do this at 1800+ range. See 2nd example in the vid.

> > > >

> > > > You can't just run away in a straight line from a zerker ranger using longbow and expect it to end well. In the second example, it would've served you better to go toward the cliff the soulbeast is on. LOS someone perched on a cliff and they won't be able to hit you with anything but a barrage you could easily hug the cliff to walk out of. Pay attention to your bar also. The soulbeast used Sic 'Em before firing in both fights. Getting revealed when you weren't stealthed is a good indication that an enemy used a reveal skill on you.

> > > >

> > > > Also, consider the possibility that you're running a subpar build for solo roaming. You don't have a single stunbreak on your bar in the vid, making it so you couldn't get up from the PBS and had to eat the rapid fire.

> > >

> > > Normally I wouldn't, but the SB was SO kitten FAR AWAY I figured I could out-range longbow. Unfortunately, due to the bug where it actually shoots over 2000 range in some situations, it just kept hitting me. In the second engagement, the soulbeast is already at ~1500 range and yet the attacks just keep hitting even after gaining probably 900 units of distance..

> > >

> > > Anyway, like I said, I wasn't really paying attention in those clips, but the purpose was to give an example of the damage numbers possible, not counterplay examples.

> >

> > My point in posting about counterplay is that the current state of the game (the powercreep) is unforgiving to any build that has only two dodges and a single block as defense. A number of professions/builds could have taken you from 100 to 0 in the same time it took the soulbeast.

>

> But the difference is, none of them are doing it from 1.5x every other class' engagement distance. Most high-damage skills have clear animations and are close or melee range. If you dodge their burst, you can turn around and counterattack, then win the fight. If you dodge the soulbeast burst, you still have to cover 1500-1800+ range while taking autoattacks that hit for 1/3 of your health.

 

See, in that situation I'd be running away from the soulbeast, not towards him. It's easier to get out of range, LoS and force him to come to you so you can hit him than it is to close the gap in most cases.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> No, it's op because of the whole toolkit, not of the damage only. I don't see how this is so hard to understand. PvP balancing is nothing more than balancing between key elements of the game and if a classes toolkit is so good that all of these elements are good or above it's a balancing issue.

> If you don't understand that basic principle of class balancing, you should maybe not try to argue about that.

>

> There is no "but my class is bad at 'that' therefore it can be op at 'this'". That's not how it works.

>

> Let's try it that way. (5 is great, 1 is poor).

>

> Your class:

> DPS: 5

> Tankiness: 4

> Mobility: 5

> Gimmick: 4

> Difficulty to play (5 is easy in that case): 4

> Ø 4,4

>

> Other class:

> DPS: 5

> Tankiness: 2

> Mobility: 2

> Gimmick: 3

> Difficulty to play: 4

> Ø 3,2

>

>

> The goal of the balancing is a Ø of around 3,5. So your class is above that Ø which is the optimal balancing, while class B is almost at the target Ø . The goal now is to change one of those aspects to get closer to 3,5.

>

 

I'm not sure that gimmick is a build trait that increases your build's potency tbh. If you build for one thing at the expense of everything else and the other player knows the trick and how to counter it, playing a gimmicky build is usually a disadvantage. In this case, once I know the soulbeast is full zerk I then know I can kill him with a single backstab with no warning, so I can start hunting him no problem.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

 

 

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"Abyssisis.3971" said:

> > Maybe i already play a full zerker soulbeast and know that this thread is clearly a l2p issue.

>

> Let's put it in perspective. Try playing a full zerker necromancer or elementalist or revenant and check what happens.

 

Well, let's put THAT in perspective. Medium armor are supposed to be the skirmisher type classes, they generally can't frontline like heavy armor classes and light armor classes do backline better. So they're supposed to be good at roaming and picking off individual players. A soulbeast picking lone players off as they get seperated from a blob is exactly what he should be doing, since if you're in a blob you'll have that many defensive buffs he won't be able to do much anyways.

 

> You will notice your damage is below that of your zerker soulbeast, your defense is mediocre at best and you will most likely in a second where the toolkit from your soulbeast (or thief, warrior, etc) will save you in four of five cases.

 

The burst in the game from roaming builds is now at a point where if you're not paying attention when the spike comes you will either get one shot or be on severely low health no matter what class you're on. This is true of ranger, thief, mesmer, rev, engi, warrior, ele, necro and guardian. Oh look, that's everybody.

[Substance E.4852]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > @"geist.9173" said:

> >

> > > While at it, fix LoS issues. grass doesn't block projectiles. Really, it doesn't.

> >

> > As someone who's actually killed with a bow, yeah it does. Even a gust of wind can divert an arrow off it's Mark.

> > I know it's hardly relevant, but it's true

> >

>

> You forgot to activate your unblockable. Happens to the best of us.

 

Meanwhile, forgetting to activate your dodge only happens to the worst of us.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"geist.9173" said:

> > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > @"geist.9173" said:

> > >

> > > > While at it, fix LoS issues. grass doesn't block projectiles. Really, it doesn't.

> > >

> > > As someone who's actually killed with a bow, yeah it does. Even a gust of wind can divert an arrow off it's Mark.

> > > I know it's hardly relevant, but it's true

> > >

> >

> > You forgot to activate your unblockable. Happens to the best of us.

>

> Meanwhile, forgetting to activate your dodge only happens to the worst of us.

 

that's the heart of the matter. this didn't used to be the case back in the day, or if it was there were clear repercussions and your build was a lot squishier then todays builds. I think some ppl don't like where this game is headed and I cant blame them.

 

[SWI.4127]

The one thing that annoys me the most about SB glass longbow is it's such a low-skill spec to play with ridiculous range advantage. At least burst mes has to use combos. SB just auto attacks and presses 2.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> The one thing that annoys me the most about SB glass longbow is it's such a low-skill spec to play with ridiculous range advantage. At least burst mes has to use combos. SB just auto attacks and presses 2.

 

This is pretty much how I feel and I use it pretty regularly. It is disgustingly easy to use. I can 100 - 0 people all day and still be hard to lock down because I have 3 stunbreaks + a passive CC immunity, lots of condition cleanse, 2 low cooldown heals if I take a Supportive pet with Spiritual Reprieve and easy access to stealth.

 

There are obvious weaknesses and against decent players, it becomes a lot more apparent how much of a gimmick it is, but it's still not weak either.

 

As I'd said in my initial comment, I don't think SB is an issue nor do I think it needs any kind of heavy nerfs. I wouldn't be against some adjustments here and there however because as is, it's ease of use has got to be top of the charts. I honestly don't think a completely new or braindead player can be as dangerous with anything else as they can be with a Soulbeast.

[geist.9173]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

 

> The burst in the game from roaming builds is now at a point where if you're not paying attention when the spike comes you will either get one shot or be on severely low health no matter what class you're on. This is true of ranger, thief, mesmer, rev, engi, warrior, ele, necro and guardian. Oh look, that's everybody.

 

That's nice and all, but not the problem. Yes, you can dodge the 2 of a Longbow, but you mostly can't dodge the initial attack of a thief or all the stuns of a warrior (or kite him). The problem is, as someone mentioned after you already, that dodging isn't as important anymore than it was before. I played a lot of D/D and P/D thief at the start of the game and you relied on dodging back then. Sure, you could C&D to regain stealth, but without a proper dodge you mostly died because you wore berserker armor not marauder and a warrior hit you by swinging wildly with his hammer or gs could put you in downstate.

This won't ever happen to you today even if you fail to dodge, when you aren't already very low on hp.

 

I posted that 21k from a stealthed deadeye yesterday, that was after I had the chance to hit him once with my axe (on power scourge). My axe 2 goes up to 10k damage in best case. In that small window I'm able to put damage on the deadeye he won't even drop below 50% before he is back in stealth and gone for me until he opens again.

Putting down shades based on "luck" and a gut feeling where he could be isn't a valid strategy for a fight.

**The elephant in the room still is:

Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

A deadeye sacrifices nothing when he is build for burst like that. He keeps his mobility, stealth is even better than on core thief, his defensive cd are basically the same.**

Sacrificing your dignity doesn't count btw. People with dignity don't play deadeye.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> **The elephant in the room still is:

> Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

 

what ever you play, you allways sacrifice something. i cant use deadeye in my 4th traitslot, i cant equip rifle as my 3rd weapon etc.

you allways give up something. for example my deadeye has more damage and more stealth than most common core/DD builds, yet less mobility cause no shortbow and no steal, less boonrip cause no trickery, no interrupt worth using as such, no DA therefor no poison+weakness on f1, no immob proc on 50% etc.

now i could use tickery to get the boonrip back and a less then optimal interrupt as mark has a cast time and steal doesnt, but i would need to give up a traitline for trickery. if i give up SA i will be vulnerable to condis and slower in stealth also no stealth rez, when i give up CS i will lose a ton of damage and up to 10k hp. and then i still dont have DA wich most core/DD builds use aswell.

you allways have just 9 major traits, 1 heal skill, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 2 land weaponsets as a thief. but you have more options than slots for each, so you have to make choices, choices allways means you sacrifice some option to gain something different.

[geist.9173]

That's not a sacrifice at all, because you keep the key components.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

>

> > The burst in the game from roaming builds is now at a point where if you're not paying attention when the spike comes you will either get one shot or be on severely low health no matter what class you're on. This is true of ranger, thief, mesmer, rev, engi, warrior, ele, necro and guardian. Oh look, that's everybody.

>

> That's nice and all, but not the problem. Yes, you can dodge the 2 of a Longbow, but you mostly can't dodge the initial attack of a thief or all the stuns of a warrior (or kite him). The problem is, as someone mentioned after you already, that dodging isn't as important anymore than it was before. I played a lot of D/D and P/D thief at the start of the game and you relied on dodging back then. Sure, you could C&D to regain stealth, but without a proper dodge you mostly died because you wore berserker armor not marauder and a warrior hit you by swinging wildly with his hammer or gs could put you in downstate.

> This won't ever happen to you today even if you fail to dodge, when you aren't already very low on hp.

>

> I posted that 21k from a stealthed deadeye yesterday, that was after I had the chance to hit him once with my axe (on power scourge). My axe 2 goes up to 10k damage in best case. In that small window I'm able to put damage on the deadeye he won't even drop below 50% before he is back in stealth and gone for me until he opens again.

> Putting down shades based on "luck" and a gut feeling where he could be isn't a valid strategy for a fight.

> **The elephant in the room still is:

> Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

> A deadeye sacrifices nothing when he is build for burst like that. He keeps his mobility, stealth is even better than on core thief, his defensive cd are basically the same.**

> Sacrificing your dignity doesn't count btw. People with dignity don't play deadeye.

>

 

You kinda missed my point on the previous post. I'm saying that if you're not paying attention, any class can spike you down in a second given the correct build. Some find it easier than others, sure, but without making all the classes the same there's always going to be that difference. If you're constantly being picked off by a soulbeast I'd suggest paying more attention to what's going on around you.

 

> @"geist.9173" said:

> That's not a sacrifice at all, because you keep the key components.

 

It is a sacrifice, as you choose to focus on certain aspects but there will be something in common as it's the same class. I much prefer running sword dagger on deadeye over dagger pistol, it gives me more evades, mobility, tons of boonrip and an easier time vs things that spam blocks and reflects and personally I find it more fun. However, to do that I give up reliable condi cleanse, stealth uptime, and a large amount of damage due to having to take different stats and losing the high initial spike of dagger. There's always a tradeoff.

 

And as for the dignity comment, if you deliberately play a subpar spec then complain when you lose to something you could otherwise killed, you can only blame your build choices. Using mirage as an example, it's a very hard fight if I choose to take sword as described earlier as he has more evades and mobility and he can one shot me easily whereas I can't do the same to him. I can continue to complain about mirage, or I can take dagger allowing me to one shot him back which drastically evens the playing field.

[ChartFish.1308]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> The one thing that annoys me the most about SB glass longbow is it's such a low-skill spec to play with ridiculous range advantage. At least burst mes has to use combos. SB just auto attacks and presses 2.

 

Mm yeah. Winning every fight only using long range shot and rapid fire. Yup, very plausible. Wait, there's more to it than camping longbow 1 and 2? Don't try me for a fool. Longbow is the only weapon in rangers arsenal, i *dual wield* longbows, i *am* a longbow.

 

:# really, queen.

[SWI.4127]

> @"ChartFish.1308" said:

> > @"SWI.4127" said:

> > The one thing that annoys me the most about SB glass longbow is it's such a low-skill spec to play with ridiculous range advantage. At least burst mes has to use combos. SB just auto attacks and presses 2.

>

> Mm yeah. Winning every fight only using long range shot and rapid fire. Yup, very plausible. Wait, there's more to it than camping longbow 1 and 2? Don't try me for a fool. Longbow is the only weapon in rangers arsenal, i *dual wield* longbows, i *am* a longbow.

>

> :# really, queen.

 

touched a nerve?

[ChartFish.1308]

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> touched a nerve?

 

I'll add a /s to it next time.

Mere annoyance of having a chosen profession reduced to a skill or two. I'm sure if [Your Main Profession] was reduced down to "auto attacks and XX 4"s it'd get a bit annoying too.

 

Not denying ranger isn't a low skill-cap class, right in there with warrior and necro as most newbie friendly, but honestly queen. What soulbeast could survive any 1v1 with only auto attacks and rapid fires. :no_mouth:

[Kayowin.9217]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> I posted that 21k from a stealthed deadeye yesterday, that was after I had the chance to hit him once with my axe (on power scourge). My axe 2 goes up to 10k damage in best case. In that small window I'm able to put damage on the deadeye he won't even drop below 50% before he is back in stealth and gone for me until he opens again.

> Putting down shades based on "luck" and a gut feeling where he could be isn't a valid strategy for a fight.

> **The elephant in the room still is:

> Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

> A deadeye sacrifices nothing when he is build for burst like that. He keeps his mobility, stealth is even better than on core thief, his defensive cd are basically the same.**

> Sacrificing your dignity doesn't count btw. People with dignity don't play deadeye.

>

 

A video or full screenshot of the damage log would be a lot more helpful.

 

As Turk said, DJ does not hit like it used to. With ascended zerk and valk and five stacks of malice, my DJ tops out around 12K-14K at the max crit using scholar runes and sigil of force. How many times were you hit before the DT/BS/BA/DJ? Maybe at 7 stacks of malice (running the trait) you might be able to approach that kind of damage if your toon had nothing invested in toughness but it must have been a protracted fight to get to that point. DJ is not what it used to be.

 

With base light armor values, a SB could do the same thing to you, only much faster.

 

As for your last sentence, your opinion is your own.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > @"geist.9173" said:

> > I posted that 21k from a stealthed deadeye yesterday, that was after I had the chance to hit him once with my axe (on power scourge). My axe 2 goes up to 10k damage in best case. In that small window I'm able to put damage on the deadeye he won't even drop below 50% before he is back in stealth and gone for me until he opens again.

> > Putting down shades based on "luck" and a gut feeling where he could be isn't a valid strategy for a fight.

> > **The elephant in the room still is:

> > Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

> > A deadeye sacrifices nothing when he is build for burst like that. He keeps his mobility, stealth is even better than on core thief, his defensive cd are basically the same.**

> > Sacrificing your dignity doesn't count btw. People with dignity don't play deadeye.

> >

>

> A video or full screenshot of the damage log would be a lot more helpful.

>

> As Turk said, DJ does not hit like it used to. With ascended zerk and valk and five stacks of malice, my DJ tops out around 12K-14K at the max crit using scholar runes and sigil of force. How many times were you hit before the DT/BS/BA/DJ? Maybe at 7 stacks of malice (running the trait) you might be able to approach that kind of damage if your toon had nothing invested in toughness but it must have been a protracted fight to get to that point. DJ is not what it used to be.

>

> With base light armor values, a SB could do the same thing to you, only much faster.

>

> As for your last sentence, your opinion is your own.

>

 

12k-14k? so you run a SA/TR/DE ? because with CS you should be dealing more damage..

considering the poison ticks from the log he had more than enough time to break the knockdown and dodge the DJ however.

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> your build was a lot squishier then todays builds

 

These ranger meme builds have no sustain utilities or traits. They're as glassy as they come.

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"Kayowin.9217" said:

> > @"geist.9173" said:

> > I posted that 21k from a stealthed deadeye yesterday, that was after I had the chance to hit him once with my axe (on power scourge). My axe 2 goes up to 10k damage in best case. In that small window I'm able to put damage on the deadeye he won't even drop below 50% before he is back in stealth and gone for me until he opens again.

> > Putting down shades based on "luck" and a gut feeling where he could be isn't a valid strategy for a fight.

> > **The elephant in the room still is:

> > Why some classes don't have to sacrifice any of their advantages while others have to choose between them?

> > A deadeye sacrifices nothing when he is build for burst like that. He keeps his mobility, stealth is even better than on core thief, his defensive cd are basically the same.**

> > Sacrificing your dignity doesn't count btw. People with dignity don't play deadeye.

> >

>

> A video or full screenshot of the damage log would be a lot more helpful.

>

> As Turk said, DJ does not hit like it used to. With ascended zerk and valk and five stacks of malice, my DJ tops out around 12K-14K at the max crit using scholar runes and sigil of force. How many times were you hit before the DT/BS/BA/DJ? Maybe at 7 stacks of malice (running the trait) you might be able to approach that kind of damage if your toon had nothing invested in toughness but it must have been a protracted fight to get to that point. DJ is not what it used to be.

>

> With base light armor values, a SB could do the same thing to you, only much faster.

>

> As for your last sentence, your opinion is your own.

>

 

DJ can still hit for 20k+ with enough malice, depending on how you gear/trait the deadeye. And not just against glassy toons.

[geist.9173]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

>

> 12k-14k? so you run a SA/TR/DE ? because with CS you should be dealing more damage..

> considering the poison ticks from the log he had more than enough time to break the knockdown and dodge the DJ however.

 

How? I didn't know he was there. We don't talk about a 1v1 situation here and that isn't how it works. The hit came from a player that hadn't engaged in that fight. It was a group of 2-4 people and two deadeyes we were fighting. I can't waste a dodge on "suspicion" just because Anet decided that it's fine to oneshot people on a low skill class.

 

I understand that you want to keep your faceroll option in wvw, like all the thief players in the last 6 years of that game. But I don't see how this kind of damage is justified. As stated before, you sacrifice nothing as a thief while other classes really have to sacrifice a lot and burst for less.

It's the same with Soulbeast and Spellbreaker. There is no trade-off for these builds. You are not more squishy when you build into that damage, because your mobility saves you, your stealth saves your, your max range and kiting ability save you.

On some classes you know you can't win 1v1, because the opponent counters you, that's not happening for soulbeast, mesmer, thieves or warriors. There is no natural counter to that.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> >

> > 12k-14k? so you run a SA/TR/DE ? because with CS you should be dealing more damage..

> > considering the poison ticks from the log he had more than enough time to break the knockdown and dodge the DJ however.

>

> How? I didn't know he was there. We don't talk about a 1v1 situation here and that isn't how it works. The hit came from a player that hadn't engaged in that fight. It was a group of 2-4 people and two deadeyes we were fighting. I can't waste a dodge on "suspicion" just because Anet decided that it's fine to oneshot people on a low skill class.

>

> I understand that you want to keep your faceroll option in wvw, like all the thief players in the last 6 years of that game. But I don't see how this kind of damage is justified. As stated before, you sacrifice nothing as a thief while other classes really have to sacrifice a lot and burst for less.

> It's the same with Soulbeast and Spellbreaker. There is no trade-off for these builds. You are not more squishy when you build into that damage, because your mobility saves you, your stealth saves your, your max range and kiting ability save you.

> On some classes you know you can't win 1v1, because the opponent counters you, that's not happening for soulbeast, mesmer, thieves or warriors. There is no natural counter to that.

>

>

 

there is the binding shadows hit from the gold veteran and then 2 posion ticks from him, no attack from other players and then the deaths judgement. you are not supposed to dodge on 'suspicion', you could make that claim if it was a malicious backstab there but it was a Deaths Judgement from a deadeye that shortly before already engaged you.

 

you allways sacrifice something, that doesnt mean that you suddenly as a necro are good in openfield 1 vs 1 fights, that is a completly different story. this game is not build around 1 vs 1 yet you refuse to understand that and keep trying to see the 'broken' balance in that aspect. i absolutely wouldnt mind if anet changed their way of going about the game balance wise and instead would make every class an optimal choice at anything. then i could aswell support people efficiently with my thief, i could deal massive aoe damage or corrupts, i would have insane CC etc. whatever i spec for, that would be awesome yet then there wouldnt be a difference in the professions aside from some visual effects so we wouldnt need professions anymore only choices. we already have choices and professions just help you identify your opponents choices a little faster.

[geist.9173]

You know that there is more than one gold veteran per server, right? Stop trying another strawman here. You don't lose your "class fantasy" you just need to play better when you can't oneshot people anymore.

The burst is too high for a class with unlimited access to stealth as is the damage from soulbeast with unblockable (which can hit from stealth). This shouldn't happen ever with no class.

Especially with access to stealth this is an issue for over 6 years into the game now.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"geist.9173" said:

> You know that there is more than one gold veteran per server, right? **Stop trying another strawman here**.

 

yeah..

 

 

[geist.9173]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"geist.9173" said:

> > You know that there is more than one gold veteran per server, right? **Stop trying another strawman here**.

>

> yeah..

>

>

 

Pretty much this. Yes. Your class isn't suddenly unplayable when you can't oneshot people from stealth. As stated a hundred times. If you want to oneshot people, you should expect to be oneshot too. And you always should sacrifice a lot of tools to be able to. At the moment this isn't the case. You don't lose access to stealth, you still can dodge, you have your shadowstep, etc. Zero trade-off.