opinion on pin snipe?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> Effective but boring.

>

> The point of a game isn't just to win it's to have fun. You start sniping a pin and it's not long before he rage logs and then there's nothing to fight.

>

> I prefer not to pin snipe unless it's someone I hate and I want to ruin their day. Otherwise I try to beat people legit.

 

fun may differ from player to player. winning is allways the same tho.

your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

most players just want to win and if the opponents win they are usually doing it in an 'unfair' way. either they have more numbers, its a server stacked with more organized guilds, they got ACs, they pin snipe etc. etc., excuses excuses.

no matter how you win a fight opponents will log off unless they see a change to win wich means the fight need to be close, thats not often the case.

 

[Israel.7056]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

 

I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

 

> same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

 

That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

>

> I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

>

> > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

>

> That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

>

 

the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

> >

> > I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

> >

> > > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

> >

> > That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

> >

>

> the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

 

You say that, yet the players who constantly win the zerg fights on EU are still those who aim to improve. Meanwhile the players who insist their actions are irrelevant because "it's a zerg" are stuck crying about their ACs being nerfed. After all, most zergs are carried by a handful of capable players and several handfuls worth of rallybots and bait. Individual performance does matter.

 

It is as you say, players rather "win" than "try". But if "winning" becomes boring gameplay like manning acs... what's the point? Just alt f4.

If winning becomes sitting on chokes waiting for your enemies to push you without ever pushing yourself? Log off.

If winning becomes pinsniping? Log off.

 

Or don't. You can say "hey, this is better than being farmed!!!!" but the next time you farm your enemies, if they do the same and prevent you from farming will you have nice, fun fights? Nope. Will the game be more enjoyable? Nope. Is it likely that players will see it as an easy shortcut to "winning" which stops them from improving and having more fun long term? Yup.

 

So as usual, players defending their gameplay as "valid strategies" and then crying that others aren't carrying them. Crying that playing as lame as possible to avoid losing just ends up in nobody bothering to play with or against them because the gameplay itself is unfun. ACs are great and a valid strategic aspect no matter howmany you spam. Pinsnipe is realistic and a great tactic others should counter. If both sides do it you're stuck in an eternal, super boring stalemate and if both sides are smart they just log off.

But the moment half the capable players move away from the servers that rely on acs and pinsnipe to not get one pushed because they're BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and there's only 15 likeminded players left on their server?

 

Omg evil guilds so elitist they don't want fights anet please fix this issue!!!

:trollface:

 

Any shortcut will first be rationalized as "fair", and it might be. Then progressively abused as a tool to win fights you shouldn't, until it stops both the individual and the group from improving.

 

And for the record, even with pugs your goal should be to improve your alliance, coordination, server, ...

Not to sit there and go "improving is pointless, trying is pointless, there are all pugs and i'l lhave a different group tomorrow anyways!"

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

> > >

> > > I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

> > >

> > > > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

> > >

> > > That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

> > >

> >

> > the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

>

> You say that, yet the players who constantly win the zerg fights on EU are still those who aim to improve. Meanwhile the players who insist their actions are irrelevant because "it's a zerg" are stuck crying about their ACs being nerfed. After all, most zergs are carried by a handful of capable players and several handfuls worth of rallybots and bait. Individual performance does matter.

>

> It is as you say, players rather "win" than "try". But if "winning" becomes boring gameplay like manning acs... what's the point? Just alt f4.

> If winning becomes sitting on chokes waiting for your enemies to push you without ever pushing yourself? Log off.

> If winning becomes pinsniping? Log off.

>

> Or don't. You can say "hey, this is better than being farmed!!!!" but the next time you farm your enemies, if they do the same and prevent you from farming will you have nice, fun fights? Nope. Will the game be more enjoyable? Nope. Is it likely that players will see it as an easy shortcut to "winning" which stops them from improving and having more fun long term? Yup.

>

> So as usual, players defending their gameplay as "valid strategies" and then crying that others aren't carrying them. Crying that playing as lame as possible to avoid losing just ends up in nobody bothering to play with or against them because the gameplay itself is unfun. ACs are great and a valid strategic aspect no matter howmany you spam. Pinsnipe is realistic and a great tactic others should counter. If both sides do it you're stuck in an eternal, super boring stalemate and if both sides are smart they just log off.

> But the moment half the capable players move away from the servers that rely on acs and pinsnipe to not get one pushed because they're BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and there's only 15 likeminded players left on their server?

>

> Omg evil guilds so elitist they don't want fights anet please fix this issue!!!

> :trollface:

>

> Any shortcut will first be rationalized as "fair", and it might be. Then progressively abused as a tool to win fights you shouldn't, until it stops both the individual and the group from improving.

>

> And for the record, even with pugs your goal should be to improve your alliance, coordination, server, ...

> Not to sit there and go "improving is pointless, trying is pointless, there are all pugs and i'l lhave a different group tomorrow anyways!"

 

you read as usual too much between my lines.

you are the one crying about it because it destroys your fun, it doesnt affect me in the slightest because i dont zerg much. you promote toxicity against hardcore casuals, i just dont play with them. if they swarm you, you can improve all you want, you wont carry them enough unless your opponent has as many hardcore casuals. thats again expecting to get good results with not optimised gameplay, like using a trash build in roaming expecting to dominate. you might have 2-3 good traits or skills but if the rest is trash you still gonna lose against someone with a better build.

when i am in a pug zerg i certainly wont seek 'good fights' with these pugs, because that would be a team effort and that only works if you work together on it. it would be completely different in a guild ofc.

its good that you think you can still improve your servers hardcore casuals, i just dont want to waste my time with that, cause i dont see any effect in it.

for me if i pin snipe and the opposing commander tags off usually there will be a little more roamers or small groups, more fun for me.

[Victory.2879]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

> > >

> > > I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

> > >

> > > > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

> > >

> > > That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

> > >

> >

> > the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

>

> You say that, yet the players who constantly win the zerg fights on EU are still those who aim to improve. Meanwhile the players who insist their actions are irrelevant because "it's a zerg" are stuck crying about their ACs being nerfed. After all, most zergs are carried by a handful of capable players and several handfuls worth of rallybots and bait. Individual performance does matter.

>

> It is as you say, players rather "win" than "try". But if "winning" becomes boring gameplay like manning acs... what's the point? Just alt f4.

> If winning becomes sitting on chokes waiting for your enemies to push you without ever pushing yourself? Log off.

> If winning becomes pinsniping? Log off.

>

> Or don't. You can say "hey, this is better than being farmed!!!!" but the next time you farm your enemies, if they do the same and prevent you from farming will you have nice, fun fights? Nope. Will the game be more enjoyable? Nope. Is it likely that players will see it as an easy shortcut to "winning" which stops them from improving and having more fun long term? Yup.

>

> So as usual, players defending their gameplay as "valid strategies" and then crying that others aren't carrying them. Crying that playing as lame as possible to avoid losing just ends up in nobody bothering to play with or against them because the gameplay itself is unfun. ACs are great and a valid strategic aspect no matter howmany you spam. Pinsnipe is realistic and a great tactic others should counter. If both sides do it you're stuck in an eternal, super boring stalemate and if both sides are smart they just log off.

> But the moment half the capable players move away from the servers that rely on acs and pinsnipe to not get one pushed because they're BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and there's only 15 likeminded players left on their server?

>

> Omg evil guilds so elitist they don't want fights anet please fix this issue!!!

> :trollface:

>

> Any shortcut will first be rationalized as "fair", and it might be. Then progressively abused as a tool to win fights you shouldn't, until it stops both the individual and the group from improving.

>

> And for the record, even with pugs your goal should be to improve your alliance, coordination, server, ...

> Not to sit there and go "improving is pointless, trying is pointless, there are all pugs and i'l lhave a different group tomorrow anyways!"

 

The amount of crying and tears in your post has reached new levels.

 

What you need is a flat featureless piece of ground to run up against each other where no siege is allowed and both sides agree to not pin snipe because neither group has a brain other than the comms (despite most being on voice comms........).

 

Anything else is apparently too much for you to cope with and isn't fair...

[Etheri.5406]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

> > > >

> > > > I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

> > > >

> > > > > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

> > > >

> > > > That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

> > > >

> > >

> > > the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

> >

> > You say that, yet the players who constantly win the zerg fights on EU are still those who aim to improve. Meanwhile the players who insist their actions are irrelevant because "it's a zerg" are stuck crying about their ACs being nerfed. After all, most zergs are carried by a handful of capable players and several handfuls worth of rallybots and bait. Individual performance does matter.

> >

> > It is as you say, players rather "win" than "try". But if "winning" becomes boring gameplay like manning acs... what's the point? Just alt f4.

> > If winning becomes sitting on chokes waiting for your enemies to push you without ever pushing yourself? Log off.

> > If winning becomes pinsniping? Log off.

> >

> > Or don't. You can say "hey, this is better than being farmed!!!!" but the next time you farm your enemies, if they do the same and prevent you from farming will you have nice, fun fights? Nope. Will the game be more enjoyable? Nope. Is it likely that players will see it as an easy shortcut to "winning" which stops them from improving and having more fun long term? Yup.

> >

> > So as usual, players defending their gameplay as "valid strategies" and then crying that others aren't carrying them. Crying that playing as lame as possible to avoid losing just ends up in nobody bothering to play with or against them because the gameplay itself is unfun. ACs are great and a valid strategic aspect no matter howmany you spam. Pinsnipe is realistic and a great tactic others should counter. If both sides do it you're stuck in an eternal, super boring stalemate and if both sides are smart they just log off.

> > But the moment half the capable players move away from the servers that rely on acs and pinsnipe to not get one pushed because they're BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and there's only 15 likeminded players left on their server?

> >

> > Omg evil guilds so elitist they don't want fights anet please fix this issue!!!

> > :trollface:

> >

> > Any shortcut will first be rationalized as "fair", and it might be. Then progressively abused as a tool to win fights you shouldn't, until it stops both the individual and the group from improving.

> >

> > And for the record, even with pugs your goal should be to improve your alliance, coordination, server, ...

> > Not to sit there and go "improving is pointless, trying is pointless, there are all pugs and i'l lhave a different group tomorrow anyways!"

>

> you read as usual too much between my lines.

> you are the one crying about it because it destroys your fun, it doesnt affect me in the slightest because i dont zerg much. you promote toxicity against hardcore casuals, i just dont play with them. if they swarm you, you can improve all you want, you wont carry them enough unless your opponent has as many hardcore casuals. thats again expecting to get good results with not optimised gameplay, like using a trash build in roaming expecting to dominate. you might have 2-3 good traits or skills but if the rest is trash you still gonna lose against someone with a better build.

> when i am in a pug zerg i certainly wont seek 'good fights' with these pugs, because that would be a team effort and that only works if you work together on it. it would be completely different in a guild ofc.

> its good that you think you can still improve your servers hardcore casuals, i just dont want to waste my time with that, cause i dont see any effect in it.

> for me if i pin snipe and the opposing commander tags off usually there will be a little more roamers or small groups, more fun for me.

 

I can't play without hardcore casuals; as in it's impossible to stop following us regardless of toxicity. Sorry if that's strange to you, but it doesn't seem to be too rare on EU. Pretty hard to get rid of the adds ;)

 

And they do swarm - which frankly doesn't stop us from improving. It stops us from playing as a community and interacting with the other players. I do agree it feels rather futile if, the better you get, the more players add to leech. But I don't expect everyone to play at the same level, nor do i expect everyone to improve (equally quickly). I agree with your overall idea, improving feels futile if it's only personal effort.

 

But I do also stand by what I say - I see most low-end fights being won off the backs of very very few capable players doing the vast majority of the work. And these are the ones with the attitude to improve.

 

I do consider WvW a "team effort" and "community" goal. I do want to improve with the players I play with daily. That is exactly why I promote toxicity to the casual leeches. 10% of them isn't an issue, but since it went up to 70%+ they're just not sustainable. So we kick them out. I am certain there's plenty of pug players who are interested and capable of improving, both individually and in terms of teamwork. I care about the group, overall. The moment I can't improve and play with my friends; why would I play exactly? Personally I wouldn't.

 

I don't think I can improve my servers hardcore casuals. To be honest, we moved to the emptiest server possible. Almost all hardcore casuals here moved strictly to leech from us. Then any that transfer, I'll happily flame. Doesn't fully stop them, but it keeps it to a minimum.

 

I know several servers that will gladly do whatever is required to win. The lamer they play, the lamer our comms get. It just ends in avoiding fights, stalemating and very few competitive fights because both sides are more busy avoiding a loss than playing the game. If this is how people want to play the game, that's how people will play the game against them. And overall, it doesn't make anyones gameplay better.

 

I can think of some dedicated commfocus guilds... I can't think of anything they've accomplished other than being proud of commfocus and building a LOT of guildsiege in upgraded SM. Quality gameplay.

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > your right it is pointless to pin snipe if you win your fights regardless. as winning more fights would be better. but when you server is losing fights, then pin sniping and brain afk ktrain is better than getting farmed.

> > > >

> > > > I think I might have agreed with you years ago but now I'm not so sure. As I said in another thread it's all about what you really want. I think now that maybe it's better in the long run to get farmed, take the beating today and try to learn how to improve individually and as a guild or server and then win properly in the future. No shortcuts.

> > > >

> > > > > same with complaints about AC, sure they are annoying but without your opponents using them you would probably farm them wich would also result them in logging off quick.

> > > >

> > > > That is generally a problem with people who play GW2 and perhaps all of these online games; all ego no heart. Everyone just wants to win and very few actually want to try to get better.

> > > >

> > >

> > > the issue is people want to be rewarded for getting better and that doesnt happen in pug zergs. if you individually get better you still wont carry unless against terrible opponents. you see a reward for getting better individually in smallscale / roaming and as a guild when running a guild. but for a pug zerg, with every person refusing to improve it makes less sense to improve yourself as the reward is a matter of team effort. you cant improve for all the bad players alone, they have to improve aswell.

> >

> > You say that, yet the players who constantly win the zerg fights on EU are still those who aim to improve. Meanwhile the players who insist their actions are irrelevant because "it's a zerg" are stuck crying about their ACs being nerfed. After all, most zergs are carried by a handful of capable players and several handfuls worth of rallybots and bait. Individual performance does matter.

> >

> > It is as you say, players rather "win" than "try". But if "winning" becomes boring gameplay like manning acs... what's the point? Just alt f4.

> > If winning becomes sitting on chokes waiting for your enemies to push you without ever pushing yourself? Log off.

> > If winning becomes pinsniping? Log off.

> >

> > Or don't. You can say "hey, this is better than being farmed!!!!" but the next time you farm your enemies, if they do the same and prevent you from farming will you have nice, fun fights? Nope. Will the game be more enjoyable? Nope. Is it likely that players will see it as an easy shortcut to "winning" which stops them from improving and having more fun long term? Yup.

> >

> > So as usual, players defending their gameplay as "valid strategies" and then crying that others aren't carrying them. Crying that playing as lame as possible to avoid losing just ends up in nobody bothering to play with or against them because the gameplay itself is unfun. ACs are great and a valid strategic aspect no matter howmany you spam. Pinsnipe is realistic and a great tactic others should counter. If both sides do it you're stuck in an eternal, super boring stalemate and if both sides are smart they just log off.

> > But the moment half the capable players move away from the servers that rely on acs and pinsnipe to not get one pushed because they're BORED OUT OF THEIR MINDS and there's only 15 likeminded players left on their server?

> >

> > Omg evil guilds so elitist they don't want fights anet please fix this issue!!!

> > :trollface:

> >

> > Any shortcut will first be rationalized as "fair", and it might be. Then progressively abused as a tool to win fights you shouldn't, until it stops both the individual and the group from improving.

> >

> > And for the record, even with pugs your goal should be to improve your alliance, coordination, server, ...

> > Not to sit there and go "improving is pointless, trying is pointless, there are all pugs and i'l lhave a different group tomorrow anyways!"

>

> The amount of crying and tears in your post has reached new levels.

>

> What you need is a flat featureless piece of ground to run up against each other where no siege is allowed and both sides agree to not pin snipe because neither group has a brain other than the comms (despite most being on voice comms........).

>

> Anything else is apparently too much for you to cope with and isn't fair...

 

No I don't. In fact, structures are great. They're exactly what you need to equalize uneven fights in this gamemode. Everything else? Players being too trash to L2P.

Don't worry. I can cope just fine. You see all these ac spamming servers? They still end up the ones crying here about blobs and how their acs aren't strong enough.

All those commfocusing monkeys still end up crying about how all the players moved away and it's impossible to win, or how they don't get fights on their terms that they can win.

 

If the goal of the game is "make sure you win every fight by any means necessary" rather than "produce fun gameplay and content", then I can do that too. But frankly I think a commander is there to entertain and have fun - not to win every fight by any means necessary. If both sides do have this second attitude, then the gameplay becomes very stale very quickly. And if one side defaults to trying to win by any means necessary as soon as they lose a fight rather than acknowledging mistakes and trying to improve? Well in due time everyone that fights them will do the exact same. And I have pretty good faith in my players that with some practise, they can do it better ;)

 

So by all means - keep it up bois.

 

Yes. I'd rather simply talk to both enemy comms, arrange fights and have 3-4 hours of non-stop action without lag, siege, bullshit or salt and then we all say "thanks for the fights" and log off with 200+ happy players. And no, I don't mind doing risky or yolo pushes the moment my group is stronger. But if that's only possible with a few old-bois and vet servers, and everyone else wants to play saltwars... you'll reap what you sow. Which is particularly dull gameplay.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

> But I do also stand by what I say - I see most low-end fights being won off the backs of very very few capable players doing the vast majority of the work. And these are the ones with the attitude to improve.

>

yes and they mostly do improve in the context of a guild not in pure pug raids but carry that knowledge/skill to pug fights and adjust it a bit. there are few pug only players that get good.

> I do consider WvW a "team effort" and "community" goal. I do want to improve with the players I play with daily. That is exactly why I promote toxicity to the casual leeches. 10% of them isn't an issue, but since it went up to 70%+ they're just not sustainable. So we kick them out. I am certain there's plenty of pug players who are interested and capable of improving, both individually and in terms of teamwork. I care about the group, overall. The moment I can't improve and play with my friends; why would I play exactly? Personally I wouldn't.

while i consider WvW also as a team effort, that doesnt mean i have to fight with my team in one group. i can aswell be usefull roaming or in a small group. because all zergs, havoc groups, roamers, scouts and what not work together in one team.

> I know several servers that will gladly do whatever is required to win. The lamer they play, the lamer our comms get. It just ends in avoiding fights, stalemating and very few competitive fights because both sides are more busy avoiding a loss than playing the game. If this is how people want to play the game, that's how people will play the game against them. And overall, it doesn't make anyones gameplay better.

maybe its just that they dont value 'good zerg fights' as much. some just like to play this mode while they are not good at actually fighting, they will still do their best to capture and defend structures and enjoy that. doing everything to win is in many games pretty natural, granted gw2s WvW is not really a competitive mode as a balanced coverage can not be granted, but people will still consider different things as fun. i met people ingame that are absolutly sure that they will lose any 1 vs 1 fight, allways and they have accepted it. yet they still have fun in the game because they play with their mates and maybe set semselves goals such as today i will upgrade this bay to t3. that might not be interesting for you, for them it is. for me it depends on the mood, sometimes i am a real ppt hero, sometimes i just want to kill. but i rarely care if my opponents enjoys meeting me. for most part i roam in a rather balanced mix of ppt and kills, i flip alot by i also kill any group and player managable that i encounter. in the way i play you could also say i do anything to win, many opponents dont like the way i play, consider it lame and skillless when they die to me. the 'good fights' they would like to have is between 2 suboptimal builds that obey to their personal made up rules. but they are the ones complaining because i dont obey to their rules, while i dont care for them playing suboptimal, maybe would be more interesting if they used everything the game offers. thats similar to siege and pin sniping, it might not be fun for the ones that say they cant have 'good fights' with it but the ones using that really dont have an issue with it mostly, they see it as a valid tactic. so complaining about it wont really change a thing and you refusing to play with it, just logging of is also not really a reason to stop it. i wonder if everyone would just accept siege and pin sniping if you then wouldnt just improve in a way that it is no longer such a great issue? IMO groups depend too much on the pin for example wich makes pin sniping so valuable, siege is often strong because the opponents either are too stupid to or refuse to build proper counter siege. i wish people would just accept the game as it is and play it with all its mechanics in every aspect, then we would have way less threads complaining about balance or playstyles.

 

 

[BlueMelody.6398]

My feeling is that in any situation where there is a reasonable semblance of a fair fight, pin sniping is cheesy and unsportsmanlike. Doing so belies any claim to be interested in good fights rather than just getting bags in whatever manner is possible (or perhaps your 20-man group would rather pvd than fight another 20-man group so you just want to remove the enemies any way possible and get on with your PPT).

 

"War" <> "A War Game", so statements about anything being fair don't hold water. No one is going to lose their lives or their livelihoods as a result of losing a battle; the stakes are so low that resorting to pin sniping in those situations is really classless.

 

However, if the opponent is already showing that they don't give a whit about a fair fight (50-man blob is farming your 20-man group/spawn camping/engaging in troll behavior such as pulling tactics or pin watching from alt accounts, or clearly pin sniping themselves), then all bets are off. If pin sniping will get them off your spawn or hold up the outnumbered roflstomping, then I consider that ok.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > Literally solved with using more stealth. =/

> >

> > do you mean to say, your group when the opposing team seeks to pin snipe, go stealth and continue without sniping back?

>

> No. I mean you literally throw a scrapper in the commander's party with sneak gyro or veil/mass invis in their party too. Heck I will even accept blasting smoke fields (lol).

 

Stealth Gyro have a very nice duration, i wonder i havent see commanders asking for it yet.

[ArchonWing.9480]

I used to use toss Elixir S on the commander. That worked very well. There was also pre-nerf Search and Rescue and Celestial Shadow but no commander is going to admit to have been saved by a ranger lol.

 

Problem these days is even if you can hide Your Great leader, the ground targeted AOEs will obliterate him or her too fast as well as everyone going for the save. I suppose you could panic explode all your gyros for super speed, which **does** help, but it's still hard to justify swapping something for a scrapper. I thought Eye of the Storm was the best thing ever on Tempest for HoT.... now not so much. Unfortunately, any tiny crack that medium classes could sneak into has been largely sealed by the balance gods. :scream:

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Etheri.5406" said:

>

> But 10-15 players going for legit commsnipe? Actually coordinating your corrupts and pulls followed by moa only to either kill or burn most of the comm's cooldowns? Yeah goodluck dealing with that. Except that's not what most of you know as comm snipe, because as with everything 9/10 players are bad and too unorganised to even snipe decently.

>

> ITT : awful tier players stating commanders and groups should be better when 9/10 users of this forum wouldn't even be up to par to play in a half decent zerg. Just like with AC spam. I see servers win their tier with 0.5 KDA; pretending there is some kind of "skill" in spamming siege and bunkering while backcapping. There might be counterplay, but hte counterplay requires way more organisation than having 5 pugs capable of placing "smart" acs. Oh wait no, you gotta place them on the wall in pull / meteo range then complain about how you can get hit on walls. My bad!

 

10-15 to snipe? Damn what bargain basement tier are you in? Most groups I know that do it find 4-5 pretty much guarantees the kill :/

Then you switch to assuming that everyone saying snipe is justified in SOME situations must be a siege lover. I've never seen ac carts being ridden across the field to snipe a pin but I do love the imagery?

At some point in the rage induced froth up there there's a comment about how none of us can zerg. Scratched my head at that one. Sure there's some really awful players sniping - I enjoy taking a more protective roll for our delicate pins sometimes and making their snipe back off because a lot cant deal with being targetted themselves even by one player. But plenty are good players,who belong to solid guilds You talk yourself up top about 10-15 coordinating then say cant zerg? lol?

 

I digress and forget my point. I guess at the end of it all, snipe, like siege, is a tool to be used at the right time in the right place. Overwhelming the battles? Don't snipe or sit on acs. Have outmanned buff and want to try anyway? Load up those magnets, moa's and insta stomp thieves.

[Israel.7056]

If it's wrong to do then it seems to me it's always wrong to do regardless of circumstance. That being said the game itself is value neutral there's nothing preventing all players from pin sniping in every fight everywhere all the time. The fact that it doesn't always happen suggests that there's at least some general sense that it is wrong. I think that is good.

[XenesisII.1540]

It doesn't happen all the time because not every commander is easy to take down without a coordinated groups. For the most part it's the squishies that get targeted first, but nobody cares and tell them the same excuse that doesn't apply to commanders I guess, play better.

 

The only people who come under heavy amounts of pin sniping are famous commanders for whatever reason, well known guild, streamer, constant blobber, or well known rage quitter which people will snipe for the lulz. It's not like every server has a group of pin snipers either, there's only a couple servers that has groups dedicated to that, they're usually cheesy gankers on the side when not taking a commanders head off.

 

Let's not forget there's commanders who will run down smaller groups than them, chase down havoc and roamers, but when those roamers pick up pin sniping suddenly it's bad sportsmanship. I do understand there's a lack of commanders, there are those that are fragile and don't want to run them off after a couple fights, but let's also understand that if the 40 people fighting behind that commander actually played better without someone telling them every step of what they need to do, there wouldn't be as much pressure on the commander. Everyone knows, if a commander drops, their entire zerg turns and runs giving out free bags the entire time they try to run away.

 

[Etheri.5406]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"Etheri.5406" said:

> >

> > But 10-15 players going for legit commsnipe? Actually coordinating your corrupts and pulls followed by moa only to either kill or burn most of the comm's cooldowns? Yeah goodluck dealing with that. Except that's not what most of you know as comm snipe, because as with everything 9/10 players are bad and too unorganised to even snipe decently.

> >

> > ITT : awful tier players stating commanders and groups should be better when 9/10 users of this forum wouldn't even be up to par to play in a half decent zerg. Just like with AC spam. I see servers win their tier with 0.5 KDA; pretending there is some kind of "skill" in spamming siege and bunkering while backcapping. There might be counterplay, but hte counterplay requires way more organisation than having 5 pugs capable of placing "smart" acs. Oh wait no, you gotta place them on the wall in pull / meteo range then complain about how you can get hit on walls. My bad!

>

> 10-15 to snipe? kitten what bargain basement tier are you in? Most groups I know that do it find 4-5 pretty much guarantees the kill :/

> Then you switch to assuming that everyone saying snipe is justified in SOME situations must be a siege lover. I've never seen ac carts being ridden across the field to snipe a pin but I do love the imagery?

> At some point in the rage induced froth up there there's a comment about how none of us can zerg. Scratched my head at that one. Sure there's some really awful players sniping - I enjoy taking a more protective roll for our delicate pins sometimes and making their snipe back off because a lot cant deal with being targetted themselves even by one player. But plenty are good players,who belong to solid guilds You talk yourself up top about 10-15 coordinating then say cant zerg? lol?

>

> I digress and forget my point. I guess at the end of it all, snipe, like siege, is a tool to be used at the right time in the right place. Overwhelming the battles? Don't snipe or sit on acs. Have outmanned buff and want to try anyway? Load up those magnets, moa's and insta stomp thieves.

 

Yeah I'm not talking about 2-3 salty players trying to get attention. Those you can deal with with one extra support in comm party and done.

 

If a group can't properly deal with those it is an actual L2P issue. Does anyone think commfocus is limited to 5 players actually focussing? Surely it's not difficult to mark a comm to coordinate corrupts, pulls and bomb on it. Surely you can't actually coordinate it with more people. That definitely wouldn't make it way more difficult to deal with and an actually incredibly annoying strat.

 

Oh wait. Just like spamming ACs, it's something "only" done by the poor outnumbered defenders trying to win an "unwinnable" fight. Players would never do it because they're salty or want to avoid losing even in even number fights. To make up for a lack of organisation or skill. Totally implausible. :trollface:

 

Oh wait; NA meta.

[Sovereign.1093]

the nice thing about na meta is 80% fights 20% all around wvw mechanics.

 

and for the pin sniping, it's normally moa x rifle theif dh pull with ranger pew pew.

 

pretty annoying but does not really effect a bunker party 1.

 

but the question, and to put the topic back on track, what would you do if they do it first?

 

it's not that you will do it because it is available but again if they do it first.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

 

> Let's not forget there's commanders who will run down smaller groups than them, chase down havoc and roamers, but when those roamers pick up pin sniping suddenly it's bad sportsmanship.

 

I forgot about this point. The almighty commander can do no wrong, but don't target him. Ever. Lol.

 

 

[Sovereign.1093]

topics derailing though. pls limit it in the context of if they snipe you first, do you retaliate?

[Israel.7056]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> topics derailing though. pls limit it in the context of if they snipe you first, do you retaliate?

 

Yes

[Eramonster.2718]

It's a tactic and tactics can be underhanded (pin snipe is pale in comparison to some I've seen before). But are there any fair tactics? Aside from bothside using the same basis/method. Spies and such is acceptable cause it's common? It's okay to target the backline squishies or only if you target the frontline. But not okay if it's the commander(immunity?). On what basis to draw the line?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> It's a tactic and tactics can be underhanded (pin snipe is pale in comparison to some I've seen before). But are there any fair tactics? Aside from bothside using the same basis/method. Spies and such is acceptable cause it's common? It's okay to target the backline squishies or only if you target the frontline. But not okay if it's the commander(immunity?). On what basis to draw the line?

 

everyone will draw the line different, wich is exactly the issue.

if you want good fights or winning by what some people consider 'skill', you need to fight each other on the same ruleset.

the game already has a ruleset, for example you cannot fly, you cannot teleport into enemies structures but you can use siege.

but people like to add rules individually, those rules can differ alot like : no pin snipe, no siege, no condition damage, no bunker , only even numbers, no stealth, no ranged pew pew, no resetting etc. and then they expect others to respect their own additional rules, if they dont then 'they play cheap, cheesy tactics and are surely bad players, because they cant win otherwise'. as long as people will add rules additional to the games rules and expect others to obey to them, this issue will persist. the only ruleset we all agree on and will stay within is the games own ruleset, if you dont obey to it you simply get reported and removed. so if you want to get 'good' fights based on 'skill' than the games own rules, should be your ruleset and nothing more. because then everyone will obey to your rules or you can report them if they dont. you also wont feel any other opponent as cheap or cheesy, because everything is fair thats in the game, you just optimize around it. sure there will be some with a more restrictive ruleset that will call you cheap or cheesy than but you can get that on any ruleset. i mean lets put this to the extreme.. i can make up my mind that everything in this game is overtuned, we should all have same hp , only 1 melee attack and the skill would be moving in and out of this attack range while hitting the opponent and avoiding his hits. thats fine but that game is not gw2. and i will never be happy if i expect this from my opponents and i would have to call anyone cheesy.

 

so for pin sniping, if you think it is the optimal strategy in that moment, do it. if they do it either try to avoid it or try to be less reliant on a pin, wich obviously takes time for improvement and you will only do that if you actually expect pinsniping every fight wich you should.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> It's a tactic and tactics can be underhanded (pin snipe is pale in comparison to some I've seen before). But are there any fair tactics? Aside from bothside using the same basis/method. Spies and such is acceptable cause it's common? It's okay to target the backline squishies or only if you target the frontline. But not okay if it's the commander(immunity?). On what basis to draw the line?

 

Perhaps we should first define pin snipe because there's a difference between dropping damage on the train and dropping the pin and corrupting the pins boons and then chain pulling him into Africa.

[Eramonster.2718]

The ways and means meant little. The aim is to eliminate the target, be it a *cute fluffy little asuran at the back line freely dropping meteors* or the commander.

 

Edit: As long as it's nothing major like game exploitation and hacks which in this case ain't.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Israel.7056" said:

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > It's a tactic and tactics can be underhanded (pin snipe is pale in comparison to some I've seen before). But are there any fair tactics? Aside from bothside using the same basis/method. Spies and such is acceptable cause it's common? It's okay to target the backline squishies or only if you target the frontline. But not okay if it's the commander(immunity?). On what basis to draw the line?

>

> Perhaps we should first define pin snipe because there's a difference between dropping damage on the train and dropping the pin and corrupting the pins boons and then chain pulling him into Africa.

 

Your zerg tab targetting the closest enemy - most of the time the commander yoloing in front - thus killing him instantly. Thats the definition right?

 

Because thats how people call out pin snipe 90% of the time.

 

Just like how all mesmers hack and all thieves got permastealth.