Man core necro desperately needs a new melee weapon.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I'm watching all these wvw videos, be it scourge or reaper most of them use axe. they press #3 then nothing lol. what else does necro have? dagger is the only other option, if reap then gotta wait 9 sec of 0 aa for weap switch to gs which is a lot of missed damage. yeah sure you say "blah blah gotta fill that time with shroud aa's", but bro, it aint right. that's going around a problem necros got. aint much of a solution but yeah I know its what we got.

 

i know theres no real solution to this but it just hurts ya know. no other class has such a lack of melee. its embarrassing and a horrible thing necro has to live with.

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

You think that's bad? Try looking over at condi weapons. 0 damage staff with weak power aa, or recently gutted scepter, as if it wasn't bad enough already with it's uber slow condition stacking and being 1v1 weapon save the grasping dead casts...

 

I say only reaper enjoys good weapons - his **great**sword can actually become best condi weapon he has if he traits for it, and even his shroud produces very viable melee condi output if he so desires, leaving the "dedicated" garb...i mean condi weapons way behind in the dust where they belong..

[Dadnir.5038]

Be it main hand weapons or off hand weapon, core necromancer's weapons aren't known for their ability to deal damage and they are not really designed for it either. And sure, this is part of why people think necromancer don't have a complicated rotation and thus say that necromancer shouldn't have high damage.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> I'm watching all these wvw videos, be it scourge or reaper most of them use axe. they press #3 then nothing lol. what else does necro have? dagger is the only other option, if reap then gotta wait 9 sec of 0 aa for weap switch to gs which is a lot of missed damage. yeah sure you say "blah blah gotta fill that time with shroud aa's", but bro, it aint right. that's going around a problem necros got. aint much of a solution but yeah I know its what we got.

>

> i know theres no real solution to this but it just hurts ya know. no other class has such a lack of melee. its embarrassing and a horrible thing necro has to live with.

>

 

Engineer. It has no melee weapons in core and it's only true melee (hammer and sword) are Elites. It does have the Tool kit which does have some melee action but it's weak and you have to give up a utility to get access to melee. Elementalist doesn't have a melee weapon in it's core either. It does have dagger but their dagger isn't melee and they don't get a true melee build until Weaver. I think Mesmer has one melee weapon in its core but I don't play Mesmer right now so I can't speak to that other than what I know of its weapons. Now, this isn't to say that Necromancer core has awesome melee options. Just that there are professions that have fewer melee weapons in its core build.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > I'm watching all these wvw videos, be it scourge or reaper most of them use axe. they press #3 then nothing lol. what else does necro have? dagger is the only other option, if reap then gotta wait 9 sec of 0 aa for weap switch to gs which is a lot of missed damage. yeah sure you say "blah blah gotta fill that time with shroud aa's", but bro, it aint right. that's going around a problem necros got. aint much of a solution but yeah I know its what we got.

> >

> > i know theres no real solution to this but it just hurts ya know. no other class has such a lack of melee. its embarrassing and a horrible thing necro has to live with.

> >

>

> Engineer. It has no melee weapons in core and it's only true melee (hammer and sword) are Elites. It does have the Tool kit which does have some melee action but it's weak and you have to give up a utility to get access to melee. Elementalist doesn't have a melee weapon in it's core either. It does have dagger but their dagger isn't melee and they don't get a true melee build until Weaver. I think Mesmer has one melee weapon in its core but I don't play Mesmer right now so I can't speak to that other than what I know of its weapons. Now, this isn't to say that Necromancer core has awesome melee options. Just that there are professions that have fewer melee weapons in its core build.

 

Elementalist's dagger isn't melee???!! Yes it got a great reach but it's ultimately a melee weapon both main hand and off-hand. Engineer's bomb kit is also a melee kit with both it's pro and cons. Indeed core mesmer only have sword as melee weapon.

 

Strictly speaking the core necromancer only have dagger auto attack as melee option so you can say that he got less melee option than all other core profession. However having more melee option isn't really what I'd qualify as essential in this game and certainly not something that hurt the necromancer at it's core.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > I'm watching all these wvw videos, be it scourge or reaper most of them use axe. they press #3 then nothing lol. what else does necro have? dagger is the only other option, if reap then gotta wait 9 sec of 0 aa for weap switch to gs which is a lot of missed damage. yeah sure you say "blah blah gotta fill that time with shroud aa's", but bro, it aint right. that's going around a problem necros got. aint much of a solution but yeah I know its what we got.

> > >

> > > i know theres no real solution to this but it just hurts ya know. no other class has such a lack of melee. its embarrassing and a horrible thing necro has to live with.

> > >

> >

> > Engineer. It has no melee weapons in core and it's only true melee (hammer and sword) are Elites. It does have the Tool kit which does have some melee action but it's weak and you have to give up a utility to get access to melee. Elementalist doesn't have a melee weapon in it's core either. It does have dagger but their dagger isn't melee and they don't get a true melee build until Weaver. I think Mesmer has one melee weapon in its core but I don't play Mesmer right now so I can't speak to that other than what I know of its weapons. Now, this isn't to say that Necromancer core has awesome melee options. Just that there are professions that have fewer melee weapons in its core build.

>

> Elementalist's dagger isn't melee???!! Yes it got a great reach but it's ultimately a melee weapon both main hand and off-hand. Engineer's bomb kit is also a melee kit with both it's pro and cons. Indeed core mesmer only have sword as melee weapon.

>

> Strictly speaking the core necromancer only have dagger auto attack as melee option so you can say that he got less melee option than all other core profession. However having more melee option isn't really what I'd qualify as essential in this game and certainly not something that hurt the necromancer at it's core.

 

Yeah, it's not really melee. Most, if not all, of the daggers attacks are ranged attacks. You have to be in close range but you're not exactly in melee combat. Sword Weaver is the Ele's true melee build as you actually whack things with your sword, unlike what you're doing with the dagger. While Engineer has its kits those aren't the same as having actual melee weapons (grenade kit is tossing grenades not using them as melee weapons and thus doesn't count). So if the Engineer wants a melee weapon they have to give up a Utility skill slot, which puts them at a worse disadvantage than Necromancer. Core Engineer does not have a standard melee weapon. If you want to engage in melee combat in the same sense that everyone else engages in melee combat (which seems to be the point of discussing the Necromancers melee combat opitions) then it isn't until Scrapper and Holosmith that Engineer gets an actual melee combat weapon. You have to stretch your definition of melee weapon pretty far if you want to make the case that Necromancer has the worst melee option in the core build than any other profession. It has the axe and the dagger and it can keep all its utilities to make use of them. And if you want to toss in the Engineer's kits and count them as melee then we might as well toss in the Necromancers Death Shroud and Reaper form since it has claw attacks that you can count as melee (since melee can be performed at a distance if we are counting the Ele's dagger as melee as opposed to close range). Thus, Necromancer still does not have it worse than the others.

 

Look, there are things that the Necromancer is worse than the others at. This is not one of them and treating it as such is a bad faith argument. The argument supports the idea that Necromancer players want to be the worse profession in the game since they will argue any point that says otherwise because the Necromancer has two melee weapons (axe and dagger) while Engineer has zero (outside of its utilities), Elementalist has only the dagger (which is not really melee but close range combat. I can't recall the last time I used dagger/dagger and actually had to get as close as I do in melee with Weaver), and Mesmer (just the sword and they get an Axe as an Elite).

[Obtena.7952]

Just a theory of mine but it's plausible the original concept for Necro was that Shroud was the 'main weapon' and that 'real' weapons were just for different kinds of support; there are hints of this like some of the original traits that are shroud-only effects and the small number of weapons to choose from. At some point Anet realized "OOPS" and started doing things buffing Axe for reliable DPS. The other weapons got left behind and got lost in priority of fixes with the release of elites.

 

Staff works, but is boring. I don't see much reason to change it other than it's not really fun.

Daggers have fallen away ... while it regen's LF the best, I don't really need THAT much LF regen. It's like overhealing.

Scepter is still really good at what it does.

Axe is good.

 

I wouldn't say Core Necro needs a melee weapon unless there was something very specific it would do that people wanted. I don't really think lacking melee weapons is actually a problem ... EVERY weapon can be used in melee range.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Just a theory of mine but it's plausible the original concept for Necro was that Shroud was the 'main weapon' and that 'real' weapons were just for different kinds of support; there are hints of this like some of the original traits that are shroud-only effects and the small number of weapons to choose from. At some point Anet realized "OOPS" and started doing things buffing Axe for reliable DPS. The other weapons got left behind and got lost in priority of fixes with the release of elites.

>

 

It's probably the case, but then anet pushed the whole defense of the necromancer onto the shroud and and made the "main weapon" a not so threatening weapon because to much defense. 2nd life bar eternal issue that make me say that the problem of the necromancer is and have always been the shroud mechanism. Anet tried to fix this issue with scourge but made the same mistake by loading defense, support and damage onto the F skills.

 

> Staff works, but is boring. I don't see much reason to change it other than it's not really fun.

> Daggers have fallen away ... while it regen's LF the best, I don't really need THAT much LF regen. It's like overhealing.

> Scepter is still really good at what it does.

> Axe is good.

>

> I wouldn't say Core Necro needs a melee weapon unless there was something very specific it would do that people wanted. I don't really think lacking melee weapons is actually a problem ... EVERY weapon can be used in melee range.

 

Agree and the ability to use all weapons in melee range is true for all professions.

[Aslakh.3072]

I would generally agree with the sentiment that if you have a agood enough range weapon you don't need a melee weapon but necromancer is a bit different to usual. Compare dagger and axe and the most obvious difference is life force generation. Looking at all necromancer weapons melee generates significantly more lifeforce in return for being upclose to the target. The only exception is staff which sacrifices damage instead of lifeforce as its for better or worse a utility weapon. This means power necromancer can rush into melee with dagger or greatsword for more lifeforce or sit back with axe (after the buffs). Condition necromancer is stuck with sceptre which has barely decent lifeforce generation and lacks a weapon that trades range for lifeforce while still upkeeping exceptable lifeforce generation. This particular point is not a concern on other profesions so as long as they can upkeep enough damage at range to be competetive then its fine. The alterantive would be to increase life force generation on scepter without lowering its damage or range but that hardly seems fair to power necromancer.

[KrHome.1920]

Dagger used to be decent (never top DPS but decent). It suffers from powercreep. The autoattack never got any buffs. On hot release it dealt more damage than GS above 50% target health, but GS got tons of buffs and now outperforms dagger in every possible PvE scenario.

 

Core shroud shares this fate. Used to be decent but is now a joke due to powercreep of reaper shroud for PvE stuff.

 

Not even to mention the powercreep of other classes...

 

5 years ago no one complained about necro DPS. People complained about not being able to cleave on necro. Well at least dagger now hits two targets and shroud1 pierces even untraited. Nevertheless the damage is horrible now as other classes (and necro elite specs) developed in DPS.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Just a theory of mine but it's plausible the original concept for Necro was that Shroud was the 'main weapon' and that 'real' weapons were just for different kinds of support

nah

especially not considering that in the original concept for necro you entered death shroud instead of down state and it would snap you back to where you downed like spectral walk

 

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Be it main hand weapons or off hand weapon, core necromancer's weapons aren't known for their ability to deal damage and they are not really designed for it either. And sure, this is part of why people think necromancer don't have a complicated rotation and thus say that necromancer shouldn't have high damage.

 

True, a lot of Necromancer's core weapon skills feel like they are either "use whenever off CD," "use for LF," or "use to apply condi." Only war horn really feels different in that respect. Maybe that is part of its reletive popularity. There are still many functions unavailable to core Necro weapons and the ones that are available are not really suited for chaining in a rotation where one skill's use may improve another's.

[Infusion.7149]

There's no reason they can't auto on axe.

 

Dagger and GS (reaper) are melee weapons.

[pah.4931]

Dagger could work if 1) it did WAY more damage (and self-healing without healing power) or 2) if shroud was WAY better (lower cooldown, more damage, allowed utilities, could be healed)...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

In spvp dagger works, bigtime. I'm more tanky on core necro with dagger then on power reaper with gs, the life leech is no joke, nor is the lf generation via fast and hard to avoid auto, unlike reaper's gs huge tells on everything life-force generating.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> In spvp dagger works, bigtime. I'm more tanky on core necro with dagger then on power reaper with gs, the life leech is no joke, nor is the lf generation via fast and hard to avoid auto, unlike reaper's gs huge tells on everything life-force generating.

 

What stupid people are staying near the necro, without bursting him, so you can land those autoattacks unharmed?

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Since when does life siphon need them to sit on top of me to work? Also as core necro i have shroud for ranged damage if they refuse to come close and axe on swap. Not to mention warhorn 5 can keep them close once i jump in, and they usually don't feel like leaving the point cause i pulled out the dagger...

[Dace.8173]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > In spvp dagger works, bigtime. I'm more tanky on core necro with dagger then on power reaper with gs, the life leech is no joke, nor is the lf generation via fast and hard to avoid auto, unlike reaper's gs huge tells on everything life-force generating.

>

> What stupid people are staying near the necro, without bursting him, so you can land those autoattacks unharmed?

 

I gotta agree here, I just don't see it as viable. The animation for it leaves you vulnerable and there are honestly better and stronger builds than one that includes dagger. A Necromancer doing that is just asking for some burst damage.

 

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Since when does life siphon need them to sit on top of me to work? Also as core necro i have shroud for ranged damage if they refuse to come close and axe on swap. Not to mention warhorn 5 can keep them close once i jump in, and they usually don't feel like leaving the point cause i pulled out the dagger...

 

It has an easy tell and thus people can see it coming. A good player is going to dodge away from you the moment they see the attack coming. A good player may also lean into the attack and come at you for some burst damage as the attack itself leaves you open to it. Additionally, Warhorn 4 is better than Warhorn 5 for keeping people close. Daze is better than Cripple. Warhorn 4 also has better range than 5. Also, Scourge has taught people how to take out a Necromancer without getting close enough for you to use a dagger. Good players aren't going to care about you busting out a dagger as they will still resort to distance killing tactics they developed for fighting Scourges. I don't care what weapon the Necromancer is using, I'm not going to let them get close to me and if given the choice I will back off and kill from afar. If I stay close to a Necromancer it's because I'm about to burst and kill the Necromancer and that has nothing to do with the weapon they are using and everything to do with what my melee cooldowns are on.

 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

And what makes you think necro will care about any of it? Necro's natural habitat is mid, where there are usually at least 2 if not 3 other targets then you. I for one make it a habit ot use life siphon (and ghastly claws) on downed. They won't be dodging it. Ranger's pet is second best bet. Also in 4v4 if not straight up 5v5 brawl - good luck seeing my use siphon, let alone noticing on whom it's used with mass spell and aoe spam.

 

Lastly talk on paper is nice but practice>theory. And in practice by the time i'm whipping out the siphon, the fight is usually well under way and dodges/evades blocks are already used up for most part. Also i don't mind eating some burst while siphoning. I'm quite fine with that - spectral armor, and i'll get tons of life force, while reducing the damage of the burst to fraction of it's original power due to damage reduction + life siphon.

[Dace.8173]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> And what makes you think necro will care about any of it? Necro's natural habitat is mid, where there are usually at least 2 if not 3 other targets then you. I for one make it a habit ot use life siphon (and ghastly claws) on downed. They won't be dodging it. Ranger's pet is second best bet. Also in 4v4 if not straight up 5v5 brawl - good luck seeing my use siphon, let alone noticing on whom it's used with mass spell and aoe spam.

>

> Lastly talk on paper is nice but practice>theory. And in practice by the time i'm whipping out the siphon, the fight is usually well under way and dodges/evades blocks are already used up for most part. Also i don't mind eating some burst while siphoning. I'm quite fine with that - spectral armor, and i'll get tons of life force, while reducing the damage of the burst to fraction of it's original power due to damage reduction + life siphon.

 

Dude, Life Siphon is an easily recognizable ability. You're just standing there with your arm out and blood streaming towards you. It's an easy to pick out ability even in a 4v4 or 5v5 brawl. Good players remain completely aware of whats going on and who's doing what and whose using what powers. That's how games are won, by knowing who is doing what, when, and where. I don't need to know your target of a Life Siphon to know you're an easy target for a burst attack.

 

As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale. You seem to be slanting everything in your favor to make your case and if the weapon really performed at the level you claim it would see more use in meta builds for Necromancer. Its absence is a clear indicator that the weapon is more a gimmick than a sure-fire winning strategy.

[Hesacon.8735]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > And what makes you think necro will care about any of it? Necro's natural habitat is mid, where there are usually at least 2 if not 3 other targets then you. I for one make it a habit ot use life siphon (and ghastly claws) on downed. They won't be dodging it. Ranger's pet is second best bet. Also in 4v4 if not straight up 5v5 brawl - good luck seeing my use siphon, let alone noticing on whom it's used with mass spell and aoe spam.

> >

> > Lastly talk on paper is nice but practice>theory. And in practice by the time i'm whipping out the siphon, the fight is usually well under way and dodges/evades blocks are already used up for most part. Also i don't mind eating some burst while siphoning. I'm quite fine with that - spectral armor, and i'll get tons of life force, while reducing the damage of the burst to fraction of it's original power due to damage reduction + life siphon.

>

> Dude, Life Siphon is an easily recognizable ability. You're just standing there with your arm out and blood streaming towards you. It's an easy to pick out ability even in a 4v4 or 5v5 brawl. Good players remain completely aware of whats going on and who's doing what and whose using what powers. That's how games are won, by knowing who is doing what, when, and where. I don't need to know your target of a Life Siphon to know you're an easy target for a burst attack.

>

> As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale. You seem to be slanting everything in your favor to make your case and if the weapon really performed at the level you claim it would see more use in meta builds for Necromancer. Its absence is a clear indicator that the weapon is more a gimmick than a sure-fire winning strategy.

 

In fairness, _all_ necro skills are highly telegraphed. The only one I can catch good players by surprise with is Focus 5, but since rolling to scourge I find the cc of torch 5 better.

 

Admittedly, because they're so highly telegraphed, you can bait out dodges before dropping Desert Shroud on them, so that's kind of nice. It also doesn't help core necro at all.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale. You seem to be slanting everything in your favor to make your case and if the weapon really performed at the level you claim it would see more use in meta builds for Necromancer. Its absence is a clear indicator that the weapon is more a gimmick than a sure-fire winning strategy.

Metabuild users are the ones that whine because they can't kill thieves and other stuff. Laughable...

 

GS + A/Wh has a lot more counters than D/WH + A/F.

 

Also I don't understand why you complain about dagger2. Do you use that skill as an opener or why are you thinking it's weak?

 

That build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBHbhG2JHNQnNYtNgxNA9mYBXwivifxwI0VLAcAi2a5rPAA-jJxHQB9Y/hrVGogPBAAcSAAA

is an excellent duellist and devstating teamfighter. Easy to reach plat with it.

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale.

 

I just wanna point out that meta builds have less to do with what weapon/trait/utilities are good and more to do with what the party composition needs that class to do, in comparison to the performance of other classes that qualify for that specific role.

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"Hesacon.8735" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > And what makes you think necro will care about any of it? Necro's natural habitat is mid, where there are usually at least 2 if not 3 other targets then you. I for one make it a habit ot use life siphon (and ghastly claws) on downed. They won't be dodging it. Ranger's pet is second best bet. Also in 4v4 if not straight up 5v5 brawl - good luck seeing my use siphon, let alone noticing on whom it's used with mass spell and aoe spam.

> > >

> > > Lastly talk on paper is nice but practice>theory. And in practice by the time i'm whipping out the siphon, the fight is usually well under way and dodges/evades blocks are already used up for most part. Also i don't mind eating some burst while siphoning. I'm quite fine with that - spectral armor, and i'll get tons of life force, while reducing the damage of the burst to fraction of it's original power due to damage reduction + life siphon.

> >

> > Dude, Life Siphon is an easily recognizable ability. You're just standing there with your arm out and blood streaming towards you. It's an easy to pick out ability even in a 4v4 or 5v5 brawl. Good players remain completely aware of whats going on and who's doing what and whose using what powers. That's how games are won, by knowing who is doing what, when, and where. I don't need to know your target of a Life Siphon to know you're an easy target for a burst attack.

> >

> > As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale. You seem to be slanting everything in your favor to make your case and if the weapon really performed at the level you claim it would see more use in meta builds for Necromancer. Its absence is a clear indicator that the weapon is more a gimmick than a sure-fire winning strategy.

>

> In fairness, _all_ necro skills are highly telegraphed. The only one I can catch good players by surprise with is Focus 5, but since rolling to scourge I find the cc of torch 5 better.

>

> Admittedly, because they're so highly telegraphed, you can bait out dodges before dropping Desert Shroud on them, so that's kind of nice. It also doesn't help core necro at all.

 

Now that you mention it I am hard pressed to think of a move that isn't telegraphed. I'm sure there are more though. > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale. You seem to be slanting everything in your favor to make your case and if the weapon really performed at the level you claim it would see more use in meta builds for Necromancer. Its absence is a clear indicator that the weapon is more a gimmick than a sure-fire winning strategy.

> Metabuild users are the ones that whine because they can't kill thieves and other stuff. Laughable...

>

> GS + A/Wh has a lot more counters than D/WH + A/F.

>

> Also I don't understand why you complain about dagger2. Do you use that skill as an opener or why are you thinking it's weak?

>

> That build:

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBHbhG2JHNQnNYtNgxNA9mYBXwivifxwI0VLAcAi2a5rPAA-jJxHQB9Y/hrVGogPBAAcSAAA

> is an excellent duellist and devstating teamfighter. Easy to reach plat with it.

>

 

And yet meta builds is the focus of most of the conversation on the Necromancer forum, especially in regards to the profession not being meta enough to go on raids like the other cool kids. What really amuses me though is when folks make invalid guess about other people or resort to insulting other players when formulating a counterpoint. It really strengthens your position. I don't play Necromancer in PvP so I'm not sure how I could think the skill is weak because I used it as an opener.

 

I've already made my case about the dagger.

 

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > As for practice and theory ...... the fact that meta builds don't make use of the dagger is a good indication of where the dagger lands on that scale.

>

> I just wanna point out that meta builds have less to do with what weapon/trait/utilities are good and more to do with what the party composition needs that class to do, in comparison to the performance of other classes that qualify for that specific role.

>

 

So basically the lack of dagger on meta builds still indicates that the dagger isn't a good weapon as it doesn't support team play. Good to know.

[ZDragon.3046]

im almost sure necro will get a melee weapon come next xpack. As for which one a sword would be nice. It would make it so that every profession in the game has access to a sword in some way or another. Question is would it be clunky or not.