Trinity

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> i get what you mean, but mechanics are to easy currently, and cleave of EVERY class is way to high.

 

"Easy" is subjective, for some ,especially those that have done them for years, they are, but for others they are rather hard as evident by the amount of players clearing raids in the first place. You also find the mechanics simplistic, standing (or not) on fields, providing CC and so no, but for many others that's not the case, I'd wager that for the majority it's not.

 

> how is it preventing in that regard? what mechanics exist that are NOT possible when you have dedicated roles? How would it change the fight exept dancing around to stay behind the boss which is rotating all the time (=annoying)

 

I can compare Vale Guardian with Slothasor.

On Vale Guardian, that has a tank "role", that tank is the only person that is required to have any level of competence in playing the game, you can literally take first timers on VG and if the tank is good they can finish the fight. A competent tank makes VG a joke, regardless of the rest of the team. On Slothasor on the other hand, everyone needs to pay attention because they can become "tanks" at any moment, plus all the extra mechanics of Slothasor affect the team as a whole. On Vale Guardian you can pretty much carry the team easily, on Slothasor it's not as easy. And yes I'd say that if Slothasor had a dedicated tank it would be a much easier fight.

 

But I guess it all boils down to:

> You will ALWAYS need someone to fill a specific role or task, like your sloth example below. if you need someone who pulls and a class without pull joins what do you do?

In other words, you don't need to enforce the traditional trinity roles to have roles in an encounter so you are not 1/10 that does the same thing without a trinity.

You said it yourself that good groups don't need a dedicated healer on many encounters, while obviously on other encounters you don't need a dedicated tank either. You "explain" this by calling it too easy, I say it's because the encounters allow creativity instead. In order to survive without a dedicated healer you must be doing something different other than just spamming damage. Why would you want to change that and make dedicated healers and tanks mandatory for all encounters?

[Algreg.3629]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> i don´t like to be 1/10 to do a bit of everything

 

I do. Or rather even stopping to think in those categories.

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > i get what you mean, but mechanics are to easy currently, and cleave of EVERY class is way to high.

>

> "Easy" is subjective, for some ,especially those that have done them for years, they are, but for others they are rather hard as evident by the amount of players clearing raids in the first place. You also find the mechanics simplistic, standing (or not) on fields, providing CC and so no, but for many others that's not the case, I'd wager that for the majority it's not.

>

true. but i can only talk from my point of view. im only speaking for myself here.

 

> > how is it preventing in that regard? what mechanics exist that are NOT possible when you have dedicated roles? How would it change the fight exept dancing around to stay behind the boss which is rotating all the time (=annoying)

>

> I can compare Vale Guardian with Slothasor.

> On Vale Guardian, that has a tank "role", that tank is the only person that is required to have any level of competence in playing the game, you can literally take first timers on VG and if the tank is good they can finish the fight. A competent tank makes VG a joke, regardless of the rest of the team. On Slothasor on the other hand, everyone needs to pay attention because they can become "tanks" at any moment, plus all the extra mechanics of Slothasor affect the team as a whole. On Vale Guardian you can pretty much carry the team easily, on Slothasor it's not as easy. And yes I'd say that if Slothasor had a dedicated tank it would be a much easier fight.

>

again i can only talk from my pov.

yes a good tank does almost all the work. the enrage time is far to forgivable and don´t talk about ignorable mechanics. now imagine a tight timer and green simply oneshots you if not done correctly. ---> everyone needs to pay attention.

sloth is subjectivly harder i guess, yes. not necessary because there is no dedicated tank. it can get chaotic with inexpierenced players, but since you "only need to stand correctly" its not a big deal.

Overall i would say if they made all the fight tighter, dmg and machanic wise, the tank would´t be forced to to 80% alone. but i imagine a majority wouldn´t like that either.

See Dhuum, Yes, there is a tank, but you rarly get time to take a deep breath. But it´s considerer "to hard" for a lot of players. im all for more challenge, but with inclusion of said trinity (i like to take responibility tanking,healing,....)

 

> But I guess it all boils down to:

> > You will ALWAYS need someone to fill a specific role or task, like your sloth example below. if you need someone who pulls and a class without pull joins what do you do?

> In other words, you don't need to enforce the traditional trinity roles to have roles in an encounter so you are not 1/10 that does the same thing without a trinity.

> You said it yourself that good groups don't need a dedicated healer on many encounters, while obviously on other encounters you don't need a dedicated tank either. You "explain" this by calling it too easy, I say it's because the encounters allow creativity instead. In order to survive without a dedicated healer you must be doing something different other than just spamming damage. Why would you want to change that and make dedicated healers and tanks mandatory for all encounters?

 

But whats ther difference then. you don´t have a tank, a healer 2 supports and Dps, you then have a pusher, a add cleaner ,....

Wouldn´t that just be a rebranding of a trinity? you already to that btw, its simply "coinsidence" that those things are mostly done by tank/healer roles.

Again, more mechanics for the group to deal with, or a lot of aoe effect (like desmina) im all in for.

 

again, im talking for a more exp standpoint, playing dps =/= doing rota. its doing rota while avoiding incoming damage.

healer is mandatory if you are not capable to do so. --> good design?!

the encounters are already quite mixed, we have 1 tank, random tank, 2 tanks, no tanks. where is the problem?

 

to make myself clear, im not saying i want everything to be trinity. i was just not on your viewpoint of it beeing a "terrible system".

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> See Dhuum, Yes, there is a tank, but you rarly get time to take a deep breath. But it´s considerer "to hard" for a lot of players. im all for more challenge, but with inclusion of said trinity (i like to take responibility tanking,healing,....)

Challenge and trinity do not necessarily go together there IS challenge and roles without having a trinity.

 

> again, im talking for a more exp standpoint, playing dps =/= doing rota. its doing rota while avoiding incoming damage.

It depends on the boss really and can happen with or without a trinity. The bosses of Wing 1 for example require one or two "roles" to be filled and the rest simply follow their rotations. The first time I killed Sabetha I was doing nothing harder than fighting Shadow Behemoth, follow my rotation and follow a tag around her to avoid flamewall. 2 people were going up the cannons and 1 person was kiting. That's it, 3/10 where actively playing the encounter and doing all the mechanics while 7/10 were playing a glorified world boss. Was it because of the trinity? Not really that's about encounter design and a different topic altogether. Fortunately the designers are getting better at this, making encounters that challenge -everyone-.

 

> to make myself clear, im not saying i want everything to be trinity. i was just not on your viewpoint of it beeing a "terrible system".

Because it IS a terrible system if it's used everywhere, like the OP was asking to "bring back the trinity". Now if there are some encounters that use the trinity that's different but it depends heavily on the implementation of said "trinity". In order to have exciting encounters I prefer when the mechanics challenge all the players. Trinity designs tend to place a heavy emphasis on the tank and the healer which is something I don't like.

[dannico.8567]

No thanks, I don't want to wait 50 minutes in the fractal lobby waiting for a tank to sign up for a T2 daily.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Angelweave.1856" said:

> It already exists it's called BUFF/HEAL/DPS... when was the last time you saw T4 CM or a Raid without a mesmer or heal???

>

> Check LFG under fract T4 or raid and you will see groups waiting for these specific roles to be filled all the time.

 

The difference between the traditional trinity and roles in GW2 is that here people can choose to impose these requirements... or not. T4 fracts with ugly instabilities are easiest with good buffs, blocks, and heals, but it's definitely possible to do them without. In other games, there's content that can't be completed without specific roles filled by a subset of specific classes.

 

Apparently some people are nostalgic for tradition, even though it existed due to programming limitations of the times.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Angelweave.1856" said:

> > It already exists it's called BUFF/HEAL/DPS... when was the last time you saw T4 CM or a Raid without a mesmer or heal???

> >

> > Check LFG under fract T4 or raid and you will see groups waiting for these specific roles to be filled all the time.

>

> The difference between the traditional trinity and roles in GW2 is that here people can choose to impose these requirements... or not. T4 fracts with ugly instabilities are easiest with good buffs, blocks, and heals, but it's definitely possible to do them without. In other games, there's content that can't be completed without specific roles filled by a subset of specific classes.

>

> Apparently some people are nostalgic for tradition, even though it existed due to programming limitations of the times.

 

Not only that, but you *dont* have to use the meta in CM or Raids. We the players have set the meta its not forced on us from ANET, thats the difference.

[kharmin.7683]

What would changing to a trinity system do for us lowly casual players? I enjoy being able to adjust my build and have these different roles available to me in one character rather than being forced to adventure around and hope that someone on the map is playing some kind of healer if I need one.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

There was nothing inherently wrong with ANet's _concept_ for trinity replacement -- which was to make each profession play unique enough to serve as a role in itself. It's just that the _execution_ fell short.

 

+ What distinguishes the professions is the availability of game mechanics like boons, debuffs, etc. However, most of the group encounters (even today) do not require all of the various available character mechanics that the game offers (just ask necros whether life-siphon and as much chill as necros can provide are wanted in group play).

+ Profession designs were more based on PvP than PvE, and those modes play very differently. As an example, look at "control," one of the three pillars of the ANet trinity of support/control/damage. Control is spread across all professions, largely because it is a very important tool in PvP, where interrupting the other guy's big whammy or nailing someone down for burst are pretty much necessary. For group PvE, this meant that ANet originally resorted to the old Defiance mechanic to make sure that parties could not just stun-lock bosses. While that provided an opportunity for coordination (everyone save their control skill for mechanic X), it removed control as an individual role.

+ ANet wanted a lot of professions -- presumably for variety, to appeal to more people, and to fulfill expectations of players migrating from the original Guild Wars. This increased the burden on ANet to provide a greater number of unique playing experiences. This increased the burden on ANet to provide meaningful different contributions for a greater number of "profession roles" than any other game I remember (the most I remember is 5: tank, healer, damage, controller and debuffer).

+ The concept of unique roles and the concept of, "players get together and run an instance with whatever they bring." were both design goals, and are in opposition. The former happens when professions offer something unique. The latter happens when professions offer substantially the same stuff as everyone else.

[Gehenna.3625]

I like the trinity system, but I wouldn't like it in GW2. This game is not made for that. I guess in raids and maybe in fractals (never done them) there is some sort of role division needed but the rest of the game just doesn't work that way. They would basically have to change everything in the game that is related to combat. Let other games do that and let GW2 do what GW2 does.