how many mesmers want staff to be a better weapon?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > I see the usual suspects stirring the pot without fundamental understanding again ...

> > > > >

> > > > > There isn't a problem with this weapon. It's has it's place and in that place, it works well. Sure, there are tweaks that would make it better; but when ISN'T that true for anything? It's not a reason to change it. Neither is RPing Kasmeer.

> > > >

> > > > Obtusea, its only use is spending 5 years to solo things in PvE with the guise of safety even though if you just use Axe/Torch everything will melt anyways. It literally has no use anywhere else, what is this "place" you keep speaking of?

> > > >

> > > > Staff is an old, dusty weapon that needs a rework like Guardian's staff.

> > >

> > > It doesn't really need a rework though. Some tweaks sure, but not a full rework. Its not a dps weapon, of course you will kill stuff faster on a dps build like axe/torch. Staff is a utility weapon, full stop. Especially when paired with the chaos line, you get protection and regen out the kitten on staff. Decent clone generation. Built in mobility that doesn't require a target. Interrupt on demand with chaos storm. Not to mention that since the phantasm changes, its the only mesmer weapon to have both a combo field and a finisher.

> >

> > So because it has utility it can't have damage?

> >

> > Classes like Tempest have "utility" weapons that still do damage. It is able to generate its own boons and might out the kitten. Classes like Herald are able to as well.

> >

> > Its so called "utility" when compared to other class weapons that actually have real utility is pathetic.

>

> So what do you mean it 'can't have damage'? Do you actually KNOW how much damage the staff does? What build did you use to determine it needs more?

>

> I got the feeling you didn't do much to conclude Staff should have more damage ... other than anecdotally note it doesn't do as much as something else. That's not a problem that needs fixing.

 

And on top of what you said...yeah. A utility weapon shouldn't have damage on par with a damage weapon. That's pretty much exactly how it's supposed to work.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > I see the usual suspects stirring the pot without fundamental understanding again ...

> > > > >

> > > > > There isn't a problem with this weapon. It's has it's place and in that place, it works well. Sure, there are tweaks that would make it better; but when ISN'T that true for anything? It's not a reason to change it. Neither is RPing Kasmeer.

> > > >

> > > > Obtusea, its only use is spending 5 years to solo things in PvE with the guise of safety even though if you just use Axe/Torch everything will melt anyways. It literally has no use anywhere else, what is this "place" you keep speaking of?

> > > >

> > > > Staff is an old, dusty weapon that needs a rework like Guardian's staff.

> > >

> > > It doesn't really need a rework though. Some tweaks sure, but not a full rework. Its not a dps weapon, of course you will kill stuff faster on a dps build like axe/torch. Staff is a utility weapon, full stop. Especially when paired with the chaos line, you get protection and regen out the kitten on staff. Decent clone generation. Built in mobility that doesn't require a target. Interrupt on demand with chaos storm. Not to mention that since the phantasm changes, its the only mesmer weapon to have both a combo field and a finisher.

> >

> > So because it has utility it can't have damage?

> >

> > Classes like Tempest have "utility" weapons that still do damage. It is able to generate its own boons and might out the kitten. Classes like Herald are able to as well.

> >

> > Its so called "utility" when compared to other class weapons that actually have real utility is pathetic.

>

> So what do you mean it 'can't have damage'? Do you actually KNOW how much damage the staff does? What build did you use to determine it needs more?

>

> I got the feeling you didn't do much to conclude Staff should have more damage ... other than anecdotally note it doesn't do as much as something else. That's not a problem that needs fixing.

 

Just gotta reinforce obtena here. The staff does plenty of damage, especially for a utility weapon. Just because its not on par with a damage weapon doesn't mean it needs huge buffs. Also, it does significantly more damage if you don't try to throw it in a power build, and I think that's whats going on here.

[Obtena.7952]

Just as a side note, what prefix/build is optimal to use with a Staff? Does it lay down enough damaging conditions to be used with Vipers and condition traits/skills?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Just as a side note, what prefix/build is optimal to use with a Staff? Does it lay down enough damaging conditions to be used with Vipers and condition traits/skills?

 

Sure. You use it with whatever. The point isn't the damage, the point is the utility of course, so the stats you use it with don't matter so much. In a condition build you'll get a decent amount of work done from the autoattack/ambush attack, but the real deal is the blink and interrupts. In a power build you get very little offense...but you get the blink and interrupts.

 

If you wanted to purely optimize for damage on staff, best choice is vipers just like a condition build using axe.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Just as a side note, what prefix/build is optimal to use with a Staff? Does it lay down enough damaging conditions to be used with Vipers and condition traits/skills?

>

> Sure. You use it with whatever. The point isn't the damage, the point is the utility of course, so the stats you use it with don't matter so much. In a condition build you'll get a decent amount of work done from the autoattack/ambush attack, but the real deal is the blink and interrupts. In a power build you get very little offense...but you get the blink and interrupts.

>

> If you wanted to purely optimize for damage on staff, best choice is vipers just like a condition build using axe.

 

Just what I was hoping to hear ... so If I use a staff on my Mirage Axe/torch Viper build ... I'm not too far off what I'm looking for. :thumbsup:

[phokus.8934]

Reduce cooldowns on 4 and 5 and add blast finisher to 4. Then I'll be very happy with staff.

[Obtena.7952]

I've been playing around MUCH more with Staff. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this weapon if you build and play it right. I mean, I don't even find that I want to swap to anything else while using it except it can be boring; it certainly doesn't lack anything I would expect a weapon with it's theme would possess.

 

It's only drawback is the same drawback that any condi-based weapon has ... it's condi-based. That means it's slow on trash. ON the flip side, since mesmer generally has LOTS of ways to give you the staying power you need to you need to stick around and build those stacks, it's amazing for hard mobs; I can see why people love it for Open World Domination.

 

Bottomline: The most this weapon needs are finessing tweaks. With players that know how to use it, it's a great weapon. If you want to kill trash faster, swap to a more direct damage oriented weapon.

[Curunen.8729]

Yeah but Staff 4 is a joke on a 30s cooldown, especially if untraited.

 

My opinion is that small improvements and beneficial tweaks = wanting it to be "better".

 

I suppose the extreme polarising nature of the poll doesn't properly reflect the spectrum of opinions on the matter. Ie, better - but by how much and in what way.

[Obtena.7952]

The original poll question was vague and biased; if everyone took it literally, the result would be worthless because it would be overwhelmingly skewed to yes, but not because of any good reason other than people like things to be better than what they have. "Do you want better' is not a relevant question to ask.

 

The relevant question isn't if it should be better, but why. I'm of the opinion that if a weapon gives good performance in any game mode, it's doing it's job as a choice ... Since the reason that all these weapons exist is to give us choice, it's really hard to think there is any reason to change a weapon to be better, just because people want it. I can think of a few reasons offhand why Anet has changed things ... appeasing player's vague sense of wanting better doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

If staff was completely trash everywhere with no redeeming qualities, then yes, there is a reason to buff it. I don't think that's what we have here.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I would not mind a small buff, but I mean _small._

 

The Auto Attack needs to move faster. It's called WINDS of Chaos, not GENTLE BREEZE of Chaos. In return for moving fast enough to have a chance of hitting a fleeing target, reduce the bounces by one.

 

The Chaos Storm and Chaos Armor both need a 20 second baseline CD.

 

Also, you could reduce the range on this to 900 with the changes above. This is not a max range weapon anyway (that's greatsword). If you are using staff regularly outside of 600 range you are doing it wrong, the whole point is the auto stacks condi on them and boons on you (or allies).

 

 

That's basically it.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The original poll question was vague and biased; if everyone took it literally, the result would be worthless because it would be overwhelmingly skewed to yes, but not because of any good reason other than people like things to be better than what they have. "Do you want better' is not a relevant question to ask.

>

> The relevant question isn't if it should be better, but why. I'm of the opinion that if a weapon gives good performance in any game mode, it's doing it's job as a choice ... Since the reason that all these weapons exist is to give us choice, it's really hard to think there is any reason to change a weapon to be better, just because people want it. I can think of a few reasons offhand why Anet has changed things ... appeasing player's vague sense of wanting better doesn't seem to be one of them.

>

> If staff was completely trash everywhere with no redeeming qualities, then yes, there is a reason to buff it. I don't think that's what we have here.

 

The why is a matter of perspective - my opinion is that every skill should be both fun and impactful, such that a weapon isn't largely defined/carried by part of its skills.

 

I'd argue staff's usefulness is in huge part due to phase retreat - without that there isn't that much going for the weapon aside from pseudo-aoe AA/clones that another combination of main/offhand or GS couldn't do (the only reason I don't use scepter is because phase retreat exists). 3's damage was excessively nerfed in the phantasm nerf patch, and 4 may as well not exist if you don't trait it for immediate protection and a lower cooldown, such that we have roughly 4 skills on a two handed weapon.

 

Sure the weapon as a whole may be functional, but change for the sake of freshness and increased usefulness of each individual skill is a welcome thing for me. Yes you could argue due to the already limited balance by Anet that anything not an absolute top priority should be left unchanged, and I agree with that and with you when you say if a weapon is functional then it doesn't need changes, though there is always hope to strive for the ideal. Staff isn't a priority by any means but at some point in the future it would be nice if small tweaks were made.

 

Staff 4 should be looking at Trident 3 for improvement - a 12s base cooldown skill with additional mechanics - movement, summons a clone and gives chaos armour to allies as well as yourself. The simple aoe condi proc of staff 4 on 30s cooldown is laughable in comparison. Yes mesmer underwater weapons aren't really a good thing to measure by because both trident and spear are stupidly powerful such that all complaints about mesmer on land are like 10x underwater but luckily there is no water any more in pvp and not enough water anymore in wvw for people to complain about. Still, it is fair to compare these two skills. Not saying staff 4 should have the same mechanics - not at all because staff already has a port/mobility and clone generation - instead it should have more interesting additional mechanics than a simple aoe single condi proc, especially to justify the 30s base cooldown.

 

For the record I should state that I love staff anyway so anything said above is not so much a necessity, rather something that would make it more interesting and fun to play as it can become a bit one-dimensional otherwise.

[Obtena.7952]

I can certainly agree with your first sentence and from my perspective, that's what staff delivers. There is a good balance between every skill being useful and effective, but not make me over-reliant or build dependent on any single one of them. THIS to me is a very good explanation as to why I don't think staff **needs** to be better. Make any single skill on staff better and that balance between thoughtful and spammy use is gone.

[Tact.8063]

i use staff and it is good crowd control weapon but i would like some kind of reduction in cd speciel of chaos armour to somthing like 20- 25 because i am rarely able to use it to damage or cc with weakness due to randomness and short duration it mainly work on range long bow 2 no other skill promot me to take hit to get boon or give condition i mean other defence trait punish way hard or are way good like warrior 3 second shild if you hit and out right block att

 

now i dont want it to be op just little buff like may be less cast time for staff 3 (even if you play power it wont do much damaga and staff is condition weapon which it infelit none) its just 2 cloan swamper they take to much time to become cloan from phatomas

 

thats all realy staff is good cc weapon if use at RIGHT time or you just waste skill

 

minor buff to 3 and 4 in term of speed and defence/cd thats all

 

 

main problem is unusable sceptor

now sceptor 2 is great for condition auto att too but 3rd skill take to long to cast ... its a speed weapon why have so much long cast time most of it is dodged ...

and the AMBUSH SKILL suckk why condition duration are half for cloan??? 2sec torment hurt so much?? that you need to half it????

i belive it should be able to do as much damage as in pve its not that high even if yu land 4 second 5 torment its around 1500k at best is easy to dodge and cloan need not to futher half either , i mean its easy to dodge and has huge cast time 1.25

[Amaranthe.3578]

If anything the scepter needs help.

[phs.6089]

> @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"bara yaoi.3824" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I see the usual suspects stirring the pot without fundamental understanding again ...

> > > >

> > > > There isn't a problem with this weapon. It's has it's place and in that place, it works well. Sure, there are tweaks that would make it better; but when ISN'T that true for anything? It's not a reason to change it. Neither is RPing Kasmeer.

> > >

> > > Obtusea, its only use is spending 5 years to solo things in PvE with the guise of safety even though if you just use Axe/Torch everything will melt anyways. It literally has no use anywhere else, what is this "place" you keep speaking of?

> > >

> > > Staff is an old, dusty weapon that needs a rework like Guardian's staff.

> >

> > It doesn't really need a rework though. Some tweaks sure, but not a full rework. Its not a dps weapon, of course you will kill stuff faster on a dps build like axe/torch. Staff is a utility weapon, full stop. Especially when paired with the chaos line, you get protection and regen out the kitten on staff. Decent clone generation. Built in mobility that doesn't require a target. Interrupt on demand with chaos storm. Not to mention that since the phantasm changes, its the only mesmer weapon to have both a combo field and a finisher.

>

> So because it has utility it can't have damage?

>

> Classes like Tempest have "utility" weapons that still do damage. It is able to generate its own boons and might out the kitten. Classes like Herald are able to as well.

>

> Its so called "utility" when compared to other class weapons that actually have real utility is pathetic.

 

Staff doesn't deal damage, none whatsoever, mhmm. Really?

[Hannelore.8153]

Yes, because while staff is kind-of okay for utility (mainly good for PvP, not PvE), as a support weapon it is bad, and since Mesmer lacks any real support weapon besides focus and shield off-hands then the staff should definitely get some kind of boost in this area.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> If anything the scepter needs help.

 

With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > If anything the scepter needs help.

>

> With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

 

I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > If anything the scepter needs help.

> >

> > With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

>

> I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

 

Aside from being optimal in PvE on some bosses, confusing images is now simply nuts. I'm sure you've heard complaints about instakill rapid fire soulbeasts in WvW? Well confusing images does 1.4x the damage with a faster cast time. It's obscene.

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > If anything the scepter needs help.

> > >

> > > With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

> >

> > I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

>

> Aside from being optimal in PvE on some bosses, confusing images is now simply nuts. I'm sure you've heard complaints about instakill rapid fire soulbeasts in WvW? Well confusing images does 1.4x the damage with a faster cast time. It's obscene.

 

Not a single meta-build on metabattlee recommends a scepter

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > If anything the scepter needs help.

> > > >

> > > > With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

> > >

> > > I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

> >

> > Aside from being optimal in PvE on some bosses, confusing images is now simply nuts. I'm sure you've heard complaints about instakill rapid fire soulbeasts in WvW? Well confusing images does 1.4x the damage with a faster cast time. It's obscene.

>

> Not a single meta-build on metabattlee recommends a scepter

 

That's because metabattle has been trash for years.

 

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/condition/

 

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition/

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > > If anything the scepter needs help.

> > > > >

> > > > > With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

> > > >

> > > > I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

> > >

> > > Aside from being optimal in PvE on some bosses, confusing images is now simply nuts. I'm sure you've heard complaints about instakill rapid fire soulbeasts in WvW? Well confusing images does 1.4x the damage with a faster cast time. It's obscene.

> >

> > Not a single meta-build on metabattlee recommends a scepter

>

> That's because metabattle has been trash for years.

>

> https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/condition/

>

> https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition/

 

Interesting,the 2nd build is axe btw

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > > > If anything the scepter needs help.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With scepter they've taken the classic Anet approach of buffing it so much that the clunkiness inherent to the weapon matters less than the fact that you can almost 1shot a tank build with it. It doesn't make the weapon feel better to use, but it sure does the job.

> > > > >

> > > > > I dont think the scepter is used anywhere.

> > > >

> > > > Aside from being optimal in PvE on some bosses, confusing images is now simply nuts. I'm sure you've heard complaints about instakill rapid fire soulbeasts in WvW? Well confusing images does 1.4x the damage with a faster cast time. It's obscene.

> > >

> > > Not a single meta-build on metabattlee recommends a scepter

> >

> > That's because metabattle has been trash for years.

> >

> > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/condition/

> >

> > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition/

>

> Interesting,the 2nd build is axe btw

 

You can't hyperlink to the variants, but theres a scepter variant for some bosses.

[Curunen.8729]

Using staff untraited now is a reminder of how boring it can be with the long cooldowns of 4 and 5 in particular. Only when traited does it achieve some sort of flow with 4 being on 24s and 5 being on 28s, as well as 4 providing immediate protection.

 

It mostly boils down to 1, 1, 1, with a bit of 2 every now and then and 3 when you have it (but on 18s for 3 it's still quite long).

 

4 is utterly pathetic/disgraceful for 30s cooldown when untraited - it does almost nothing. It's only value is the clutch protection from traiting it, but even that is negligable and if you're under pressure it offers almost zero defence unless you luck out with a weakness proc (which again likely does nothing as your opponent(s) will clear it or simply have enough obscene damage to not worry about it). I wish they'd delete this skill and replace it with something entirely new. For a skill to require a trait in order to be even marginally useful is ridiculous.

 

5 just needs to be brought down to 30s base. 35s is too long for what it offers, even if it lasts 5 seconds.

[Jables.4659]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> Staff in general is perfectly fine. It's not a dps weapon, it's a utility weapon. The only thing on staff that really needs adjustment is the phantasm.

 

Exactly this. The only other thing I would change is staff 4. It was fine back when chaos armor had no ICD, but now its a rather lackluster ability for the high cooldown.