Nikal.4921 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > Then play PvE and get the free completing maps. > > Seriously dude, this is the MMO with the easiest life for wardrobe fashionistas. Every other MMO I've played allows players to change their clothes for free. Anet's system is outdated. It should be enough that we pay for the skins IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"Nikal.4921" said: > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > > > Then play PvE and get the free completing maps. > > > > Seriously dude, this is the MMO with the easiest life for wardrobe fashionistas. > Every other MMO I've played allows players to change their clothes for free. Anet's system is outdated. It should be enough that we pay for the skins IMO. And how many lets you to share every skin, every dye (with infinite uses) account along. Plus, you can customize the skin of every part, and outfits are also shared and can be changed at no cost. And the dyes are affordable outside a few onew whicha nyway end being free in the birthay gifts. Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSpecter.6295 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > @"RazielSpecter.6295" said: > > PvE players can get completing the map > > Assuming that I get 1 charge per map, that leaves me with about 50 of them. Wow, my problem is sovled here, that will totally last me for the rest of my life, I'll never have to worry about it again. You complete with another character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemiel.5694 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 They will never remove it since it's another way indie company ANet can make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMANG.1903 Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Nikal.4921" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > > > > > Then play PvE and get the free completing maps. > > > > > > Seriously dude, this is the MMO with the easiest life for wardrobe fashionistas. > > Every other MMO I've played allows players to change their clothes for free. Anet's system is outdated. It should be enough that we pay for the skins IMO. > > And how many lets you to share every skin, every dye (with infinite uses) account along. Plus, you can customize the skin of every part, and outfits are also shared and can be changed at no cost. And the dyes are affordable outside a few onew whicha nyway end being free in the birthay gifts. > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > It's not because others games do it poorly that we shouldn't do it better. There's no reason armor should require money, while all the rest is completely free. At least be consitent. > @"RazielSpecter.6295" said: > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > @"RazielSpecter.6295" said: > > > PvE players can get completing the map > > > > Assuming that I get 1 charge per map, that leaves me with about 50 of them. Wow, my problem is sovled here, that will totally last me for the rest of my life, I'll never have to worry about it again. > You complete with another character > And once I don't have characters anymore? I'm assuming that you'll tell me to delete and create a new one. Sorry, that's not something I should be forced to do to obtain them. It's obviously not an intended gameplay, and it's not fun to do. > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > They will never remove it since it's another way indie company ANet can make money. If they wanted to make money out of it, armors wouldn't be the only thing requiring charges. Outfits&co would do too. But they don't, because they were implemented more recently. Which leads to only one conclusion: The only reason charges still exist is because they were there from the start, but it's not the dirrection ANet would take if they had to do it all over again. They are afraid to do the change because of the handful of people who would complain about all their charges lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Pixie.8603 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 You have access to easy transmutation stones through PvP or WvW, You just don't want to take it. It's just like WvWers/PvPers who don't get access to the exclusive rewards in raids, or the gold revenue of Fractals. I could whine about not getting those exclusive rewards, but i'm not getting them because I made the choice not to play those modes. Can we look forward to other threads championing Legendary armour skins in WvW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > If they wanted to make money out of it, armors wouldn't be the only thing requiring charges. Outfits&co would do too. But they don't, because they were implemented more recently. Which leads to only one conclusion: The only reason charges still exist is because they were there from the start, but it's not the dirrection ANet would take if they had to do it all over again. They are afraid to do the change because of the handful of people who would complain about all their charges lost. Nope. Outfits don't requiere charges because outside a couple of them (which were aniversary gifts, anyway) all require gems (you don't have any other mean to get them), so making them endesly swappable enhanced their appeal. But armor skins are oftenly outside the gem market, so they can't profit directly from. A game released in similar time frame as GW2 as Diablo III still requires to spent in game currency to use transmogs, despite all the time past and the close of the closing of the AH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I agree. Transmutation charges are unfair and weird. Personally, I have 350 transmutation charges. I play a fair bit of WvW. At this point, I feel like I'm playing a game where transmutation charges just... aren't even a thing. But for a new player, it could be a real annoyance and I have to say, it might even put them off. I think it's wrong to charge people just to change between skins they've already unlocked or purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goettel.4389 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I'm not really bothered by the scarcity of transmutation charges (I don't PvP). It forces me to really think about the looks of my stable of alts, and if I do need a couple charges I just do some casual zone completion. If I really can't wait for that, I buy some from the store for a couple €. As for new players, they have tons of charges from zone completion to play with before cap, so I don't see that as a problem either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSpecter.6295 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Pretty Pixie.8603" said: > You have access to easy transmutation stones through PvP or WvW, You just don't want to take it. It's just like WvWers/PvPers who don't get access to the exclusive rewards in raids, or the gold revenue of Fractals. I could whine about not getting those exclusive rewards, but i'm not getting them because I made the choice not to play those modes. > > Can we look forward to other threads championing Legendary armour skins in WvW? Exactly. Theres no excuses for that. Its easy and it is on the game. If you dont want the problem is yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > As for others potential PvE ways to get them, I'm doing all my daily fractals, all daily PvE, a good amount of world bosses every day, and I don't get even one charge out of it. If you don't think the system should disappear, at least acknowledge that there is a large inbalance between PvP and PvE modes. > I'd happily do so, but that wasn't part of your original post, so why would I comment on the imbalance? :) You could look at it as an imbalance, or you could look at it instead as different things are easier to obtain in different game modes. For instance, if you want crafting materials, you're far better off running around the open world / metas than farming nodes or salvaging loot bags in WvW. sPvP players (who win, I should add) get tons upon tons of unidentified dyes as part of their rewards. Depending on the reward track they choose, WvW players can get Mystic Clovers or Mystic Coins as rewards, and can get weapons and armor (and also the skins) normally reserved for people who run the Explorable Dungeon paths. Dye's are obtainable through crafting, purchasable off the TP, or via in game rewards - they are just more easily obtainable through successful sPvP play. Crafting materials are obtainable through salvaging gear from loot bags, harvested off synthesizer nodes, or purchasable off the TP - they are just more easily obtainable through open world PvE play. Transmutation charges are obtainable through open world map completion, log in rewards, achievement chests, and are purchaseable with either Gems or BL statuettes - they are just more easily obtainable through WvW reward tracks and leveling. That "not every player likes every game mode" is irrelevant, unless we were talking about items that are ONLY obtainable in a specific game mode, but are widely used by all players for various reasons. I can find zero examples of that with perhaps the only exception being the Gift of Battle, but since it's part of a Legendary Weapon collection, if you're going to work on something like that, you have to be prepared to stretch yourself and do things you may not like, and in any case, the counter balance is the requirement of gifts of exploration which can only be obtained through PvE play. You're free to play GW2 however you want, so if you really don't like WvW, then you just have to accept the fact that you won't be getting transmutation charges as easily as someone who does. It's a fallacy to think that everyone deserves an equality of outcome - the only right anyone is entitled to is equality of opportunity, which we have. If you want to start collecting transmutation charges in WvW or dyes in sPvP, there are no barriers stopping you outside of those you create for yourself. We have sections on the forums dedicated to both game modes, full of players willing to answer questions or even run with you to show you the ropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMANG.1903 Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > For instance, if you want crafting materials, you're far better off running around the open world / metas than farming nodes or salvaging loot bags in WvW. > sPvP players (who win, I should add) get tons upon tons of unidentified dyes as part of their rewards. > Depending on the reward track they choose, WvW players can get Mystic Clovers or Mystic Coins as rewards, and can get weapons and armor (and also the skins) normally reserved for people who run the Explorable Dungeon paths. > > Dye's are obtainable through crafting, purchasable off the TP, or via in game rewards - they are just more easily obtainable through successful sPvP play. > Crafting materials are obtainable through salvaging gear from loot bags, harvested off synthesizer nodes, or purchasable off the TP - they are just more easily obtainable through open world PvE play. > Transmutation charges are obtainable through open world map completion, log in rewards, achievement chests, and are purchaseable with either Gems or BL statuettes - they are just more easily obtainable through WvW reward tracks and leveling. But the difference is, that each and every one of these items are obtainable at a fair price at the trading post. Except transmutation charges. 50 golds to change an armor set? Are you kidding? There would be no problem at all if the charges were, just like the others items you listed, tradable on the trading post. This regulates all items, making that if they are abundant in a mode, you'll be able to get them at a fairly low price even if you play another mode where you don't get any of them. However, them being gemstore-only, makes it that the price increases to unbeleivable amounts from people buying items that are completely unrelated. You buy a mount skin? Transmutation Charges price increases. You get a new toy? Transmutation Charges price increases again. You want a new outfit? Yea, I suppose you guessed what happened. While writing this I'm thinking, wouldn't that actually be a good way for PvP players to earn golds? By selling their charges to PvE players? There would be a merchant where you can use your charges as a currency to buy the same amount in "physical" version (like you have before you consume your charge), so people can convert their southands of piled charges and sell them. That would fix the issues each of us brought up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > And no one is buying charges anyway. Removing them entirely would probably make people more willing to buy weapon and armor skins in the gem store, because they'd be able to change at will. That'd be a mutch better investment. They would just front load the cost by making the cost of all skins more expensive. Sure you are technically no longer paying for each use because it was already in the price tag and that is assuming you make changes around the average frequency. If you are above average then the below average use people are paying for part of your usage with their purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve The Cynic.3217 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Ephemiel.5694" said: > They will never remove it since it's another way indie company ANet can make money. That line of reasoning would be more convincing if ANet actually was an indie company. It's not. It's a wholly-owned subsidiary of NCSoft. On the other hand, if you remove the words "indie company", I'll let you have it, and I'll even agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Pretty Pixie.8603" said: > You have access to easy transmutation stones through PvP or WvW, You just don't want to take it. It's just like WvWers/PvPers who don't get access to the exclusive rewards in raids, or the gold revenue of Fractals. I could whine about not getting those exclusive rewards, but i'm not getting them because I made the choice not to play those modes. > > Can we look forward to other threads championing Legendary armour skins in WvW? i am strict PvE but loath raid elitism and never liked fractals, you're lucky enough to like them, i am forced to get even less then 80% of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hevoskuuri.3891 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > As someone with over 3.2k transmutation charges they basically already do not exist for me, I can change skins whenever I feel like it (which is rare, also never using a hairstylist or complete makeover kit) I know someone like you.. never use any of those. Make a character change once amour and dyes and stays like that forever and ever.. and ever........ I want to log in his account and change his character amour and dyes but I won't cross that line lol he won't be very impress ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Primary WvW player. I have well over 1000 charges in inventory. To add some to what @"Turkeyspit.3965" noted about specificity of items and modes played: GoB is WvW only, much like GoE is PvE only. Personally, keeping some items specific to modes is a way to introduce players to different modes. Just because I can't get GoE in WvW doesn't mean I should get some special treatment for it, or get it via gold. At least you can buy transmutation charges on the TP. If fashion is that important (and let's face it, that's what it's all about) then you need to pay extra for the 'label', or you can come to walmart with the WvW crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I have tons of transmutation charges saved all from pvp. They are practically given out for free, so might as well make them free so that people who don't want to pvp can also change skins when they want to. I agree with OP, just get rid of transmutation charges at this point. It's just an unnecessary barrier in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > For instance, if you want crafting materials, you're far better off running around the open world / metas than farming nodes or salvaging loot bags in WvW. > > sPvP players (who win, I should add) get tons upon tons of unidentified dyes as part of their rewards. > > Depending on the reward track they choose, WvW players can get Mystic Clovers or Mystic Coins as rewards, and can get weapons and armor (and also the skins) normally reserved for people who run the Explorable Dungeon paths. > > > > Dye's are obtainable through crafting, purchasable off the TP, or via in game rewards - they are just more easily obtainable through successful sPvP play. > > Crafting materials are obtainable through salvaging gear from loot bags, harvested off synthesizer nodes, or purchasable off the TP - they are just more easily obtainable through open world PvE play. > > Transmutation charges are obtainable through open world map completion, log in rewards, achievement chests, and are purchaseable with either Gems or BL statuettes - they are just more easily obtainable through WvW reward tracks and leveling. > But the difference is, that each and every one of these items are obtainable at a fair price at the trading post. Except transmutation charges. 50 golds to change an armor set? Are you kidding? > There would be no problem at all if the charges were, just like the others items you listed, tradable on the trading post. This regulates all items, making that if they are abundant in a mode, you'll be able to get them at a fairly low price even if you play another mode where you don't get any of them. However, them being gemstore-only, makes it that the price increases to unbeleivable amounts from people buying items that are completely unrelated. You buy a mount skin? Transmutation Charges price increases. You get a new toy? Transmutation Charges price increases again. You want a new outfit? Yea, I suppose you guessed what happened. > > While writing this I'm thinking, wouldn't that actually be a good way for PvP players to earn golds? By selling their charges to PvE players? > There would be a merchant where you can use your charges as a currency to buy the same amount in "physical" version (like you have before you consume your charge), so people can convert their southands of piled charges and sell them. > That would fix the issues each of us brought up? Fair price is a subjective term. There are many players who choose to spend their gaming time running around with a pick/axe/harvesting tool rather than pay a 'fair price' off the TP. Selling charges to other players would make sense, but so would being able to sell any Bind on Acquire item in this game. How many times have I received an exotic drop in a Fractal that has a cool skin I already own, and best I can do is salvage it and hope for dark matter? Allowing players to sell excess transmutation charges would benefit everyone...except ANET. As there are players with literally thousands of these things, allowing them to dump them on the TP would guarantee nobody would ever buy them off the Gem store again, so why would ANET go for it? The greater issue though, is that I see you proposing solutions to a problem that doesn't exist. Multiple posts have been made that provide ample evidence that if you want transmutation charges, you can get them. The problem I see is that you don't like any of the available methods for obtaining transmutation charges, but that doesn't mean there is a problem that needs fixing. Nobody can help you with managing your personal expectations of this game - all we can do is offer information and advice on how to get what you say you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I have tons of transmutation charges saved all from pvp. They are practically given out for free, so might as well make them free so that people who don't want to pvp can also change skins when they want to. I agree with OP, just get rid of transmutation charges at this point. It's just an unnecessary barrier in this game. Sure. Eliminate them, and compensate me 1-2 gold per (which is FAR below the TP price) for each one I have that they remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Pretty Pixie.8603" said: > > You have access to easy transmutation stones through PvP or WvW, You just don't want to take it. It's just like WvWers/PvPers who don't get access to the exclusive rewards in raids, or the gold revenue of Fractals. I could whine about not getting those exclusive rewards, but i'm not getting them because I made the choice not to play those modes. > > > > Can we look forward to other threads championing Legendary armour skins in WvW? > > i am strict PvE but loath raid elitism and never liked fractals, you're lucky enough to like them, i am forced to get even less then 80% of the player base. I fail to see the relevance of this statement. You aren't "forced to get even less than 80% of the player base", you choose that reality. You are making a conscious choice to not do raids and not do fractals, therefore you choose to not have the same loots, skins and drops that players who participate in those modes enjoy. There are days I hate my job, but I love food, clothing and the house I live in that require an income to support. Can I quit my job today and then bemoan how unfair it is that I don't have 80% of the things that other people who work full time jobs enjoy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etria.3642 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I would LOVE to be able to sell transmutation charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"RazielSpecter.6295" said: > > PvE players can get completing the map > > and after completing a map........? farm gold in pve, convert to gems, buy from bl Seriously to farm 600 gems to get 25 transmutation charges is way quicker them me doing 8 pvp tracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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