ROMANG.1903 Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"SnowHawk.3615" said: > Were you around when they weren't account bound and there were different transmute crystals for the type of gear? You wanted to make sure that you kept them separate and they were hard to get IF you didn't buy them with real money, it was a hassle to keep up with. Yellow crystals for anything not exotic and white crystals for exotics/legendaries- and there was no wardrobe option to preview. You also had to make sure you did it in a specific order so that you didn't lose the original item that was being transmuted. Like some players made the mistake of transmuting their legendaries into exotics instead of exotic skins onto legendary. Make sense? Maybe we should go back to that since you don't like what we have now. > It was an awesome thing when they implemented the charges as they are. > You're coming off very entitled and unaware that it's one of the ways Anet can make money w/o charging a SUB fee every month. Not to mention there are several ways to get loads of transmutes just by playing the game. So basically you're saying that because they already improved the system once a few years ago, there is no point improving it again? :/ > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"GreyWolf.8670" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > I have ~1050 unused and want to keep them, thanx. > > > > > > > > If you have so many what will it change to simply remove them? > > > > > > > > > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > > > > Play PvP/WvW and you'll be swimming in charges. With this many options to get them without having to buy them they don't need to change > > > > > > > > And nothing for PvE players? Not everyone likes every mode. > > > > > > To your first point: " if having to pay to change armor skin is a good mechanic " you said, well Romang is refuting your statement in saying that you don't have to pay to change armor skin. > > > > > > To your second point: there are many mechanisms through which a PvE only player can earn transmutation charges, the most readily method being map completion. Completing the map on a capital city rewards 1 charge. Completing any other core tyria map rewards either a BL key, or more likely 1 transmutation charge. > > > > > > My wife who is a very casual player, and only steps into WvW to bang out a missing daily, still has about 30 unused charges in her wallet, after only playing this game for 4-5 months. > > > > > > To answer your question, why remove a system that works fine? > > > > > > I'm not going to defend this system by saying it's good (it isn't), but it was a design choice ANET made, and it works just fine, so we just roll with it. > > > > > > > You can complete the map once per character. How many times can you run WvW with one character? They're not really equivocal. > > I never said they were. In fact, if you read my post, I clearly identified that they are easier to obtain in WvW than in PvE, and that is likely by design. What I did say though is that they are obtainable through PvE - just because you don't like the method of obtaining them in PvE remains irrelevant. > > If you want charges, you can get them in PvE. > If you want charges easier you can WvW > If you don't like WvW but want charges easier than hold your nose and WvW > > We're kinda just going around in circles here. > > Transmutations charges are available to be earned by all players in GW2 in all game modes, but are easier to obtain in some modes vs others. If the player doesn't like those game modes, then they must accept they will have to work harder / longer as a consequence. > > I would love a full set of Legendary Armor, but I don't have time for raiding or the amount of WvW necessary to make that happen. So....I live without a set of Legendary Armor. > I am sorry but I don't beleive ANet designed the system so that the only way of getting charges through PvE is to create new characters. That looks like something they didn't think through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, it sounds to me exactly as if they knew that. Which is why they charge for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are easy enough to come by without spending real cash, I doubt Anet makes any serious revenue with TM charges at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyes, finishers, and miniatures never required transmutation. When introduced, gliders, mail carriers, and mounts also didn't require it. Part of the trade-off for Outfits is that they are free to swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because of this, Anet should bring armor and weapon transmutation in line with the other free-to-swap cosmetics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, to generate revenue for ANet. Allowing for the pretense that we can ignore refunding those who purchased transmutation charges, what's you plan for maintaining the current income from people buying them on the gem store? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the numbers, but again I doubt any real revenue is made from selling TM charges. Bad systems have been changed before, and I don't think anyone would actually whine about refunds because they spent a few bucks on the charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple fact, you not knowing and them not changing the system already shows that you might be incorrect or they might not have come around to changing it. Then again it could also show that there is justifiable income from TM charge purchases and as such they are hesitant in changing the system (after originally changing TO this system in the past). > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is obvious. No one is going to pay 2 days worth of playtime to change an armor set, when you can do the same in less than 2 hours in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop assuming and realize your own personal very subjective view and financial situation is not applicable for everyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode, that alone should tell you that not very many people play it. There is a ton of pve only players who never step into spvp or wvw. If transmutation charges are so easy to come by, why are you not using your own advice and get them via WvW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally like to believe developers remove or change system that are un-fun and generate no income since there is no point in keeping them. Same goes for very convoluted systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet could also introduce an infinite TM stone in the gem store for ~1000-ish gems or so. Now I believe this would create some actual revenue, since most non-WvW or PvP players would probably want this, unless they want to keep grinding map completion multiple times just to swap their armor. Maybe there could be a system where you can buy this from a vendor with 10k transmutation charges or something as well. I would definitely be buying this, since I'm literally always out of TMs. Even with WvW I'm struggling with them all the time, for I like to constantly try out different looks and have many alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WvW is a niche game mode. It is very likely that a vast majority of PvE only players are spending significant money on TM charges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even though I can only speak for myself, as a PvE-only player, I have never, ever in my entire life spent a single gem on TM charges. And it seems I'm not the only one in that case. However, no one came to brag about regularly paying for TM charges yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good for you, I have never ever purchased Black Lion Keys yet I know people who buy 75-100 of them with each new Black Lion upgrade. I have never bought any type of waypoint unlock, boosters of any kind or the home instance teleport stone (or transmutation charges), yet I know people buy these items and would never assume that my personal approach is not applicable for everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, if the system does not generate revenue, it will get changed to either generate revenue or be more convenient (again considering the old system was changed to the current one). Subjective experiences are of 0 value when discussing what is possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Hevoskuuri.3891" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll say it now; TM charges is an outdated and just a bad system overall. Most MMOs out there let you change your skins for free without all the hassle, and it should pretty much be self-explanatory in games like this. It is also a very unfair system, since players of certain gamemodes can hoard them up by the thousands, while PvE players either pay gems for them, or work boring and repetitive content just to get their hands on a few. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most MMOs out there also have way more annoying pay to win or convenience cash shops. You are literally saying you want more of one bad thing in exchange for another. If I had a choice between the TM charge system and some of the things other MMOs charge for, I'm happy to curb my TM charge spending for not having to deal with more invasive mechanics for money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is funny that you keep saying that while offering no example at all. And even so, it is not because others games do it very badly that GW2 should be Ok doing it "just a bit" badly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But again, we already talked about LOTRO, and there's also WoW that allows you to freely change your set (it costs a ridiculously small amount of golds to do so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW has a subscription fee, LOTRO charges for a ton of things which GW2 does not charge for like transportation, imposed limitations on free accounts, new maps, classes etc. unless you subscribe. I can go on about SWTOR and how EA charges for hotskill bars and many other basically necessary items. So I'm not sure how you believe any of these games to be fair comparisons when GW2 is by far the cheapest, most free to play one among all of them. The revenue has to come from somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a sub fee has nothing to do with systems, Anet could just as much add an outfit system like SWTOR and still get something out of it, they would just make it more convenient for ppl. > > > > > > > > > > > IMO there should be a system that balances this out, allowing skin sets being used without directly applying it on armors yet have a way for Anet to still get something stable out of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A sub fee has everything to do with systems if those systems are part of the monetization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: yes and they could adopt many of the other SWTOR monetization items and make the game way worse by forcing people to sub or pay for every minor thing. Stop looking at partial system and try to make assumptions based on things which sort of are similar. SWTOR has a terrible exploitative monetization model compared to GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong, there are free games with the exact system yet they don't use any sub. > > > > > > > > > and you should stop assuming everything good needs a sub, think outside the box and explore possibilities beyond what you know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, I never assumed anything good needs a sub or even remotely said so. I said that the games you named used subscriptions to generate revenue thus they can afford to not have monetization in things like transmutation or cosmetic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are we even talking about the same thing here? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > again, it has nothing to do with a sub, stop using the sub excuse. > > > > > > > aslo, SWToR and LOTRO sells outfit slots, pretty much the same thing but better. > > > > > > > > > > > > WoW makes money via their subscription. They pay their developers from that money thus they have no pay to win or pay for convenience systems in place. > > > > > > > > > > > > LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO and similar monetization models impose severe restrictions (as does GW2 on it's F2P version) and use a balance between forcing people to spend money and locking things behind must by or want to have items. They offer subscriptions to remove a majority of said restrictions or one time payments. GW2 does so in a similar manner just on different items and with no subscriptions possibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > You not understanding how business works does not mean that one has nothing to do with the other. I've tried to explain how SWTOR, ESO and LOTRO make money in different areas, but you just keep looking at 1 aspect of the entire business model without trying to understand that it has to be viewed as a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > If GW2 is making money with TM charges and they change the system, this loss in revenue needs to get made from some where else. It's that simple. > > > > > > > > > > ok, since you think you know how this works, let me explain how it REALLY works in the real world. > > > > > > > > > > both LOTRO and SWTOR have absolutely no exchange system, so any purchase players make are cold hard cash regardless. > > > > > so every pack, every mount and every single character slot gives them income. > > > > > > > > > > in GW2 they do have an exchange system, ppl can buy the most expensive items for nothing but time. > > > > > so every mount, every pack and every character slot can be gained for absolutely NOTHING. > > > > > > > > > > you're the one who only looks at it at 1 aspect while ignoring half of it, the charges barely gives them any money at all, if at all. > > > > > they are so dirty cheap you have to be really desperate to buy them with real money, i am a horrible farmer yet even i am able to get enough gold to get them for free if the need is high. > > > > > > > > When someone uses gold to purchase gems, those gems are drawn from a pool with the exchange rate based on the number of gems in that pool. That pool is filled by the people who exchange their gems for gold (i.e. the opposite). ALL of the gems... 100% of them... were purchased by SOMEONE at SOME POINT. You seem to be under the extremely mistaken impression that people can buy anything in the gem store that didn't cost someone real world money. Gold is a commodity that can be created by many sources including playing the game. Gems as a commodity are only created new in the game through one method... cash purchases. > > > > > > i know how it works, you're missing the point entirely. > > > allot, or better yet, 99% of all gem store purchases from real money gems are because of highly expensive items, the charges are so dirty cheap it's not even a comparison. > > > > > > at times i miss the facepalm GIF's..... > > > > No, a lot, or better yet 99% are probably direct Gem to Gold exchanges. That's why the gold to gem rate has remained relatively low for so long and only spikes when super desirable items enter the store. Even that is speculation based on lack of direct evidence, as only ANet releasing a report they will NEVER release would tell us the real truth of it. I also miss the facepalms, because everything about what you said is wrong. It is impossible to get transmute charges from the gem store without someone spending real world money. That is a fact. Someone spent money on gems, turned those gems in to gold, and you used gold to buy those gems that were purchased with money. Period. Those charges were purchased. Since you seem to favor anecdotal evidence (which would never actually stand up against scrutiny but whatever) I personally am far more likely to spend money on gems that I then use to buy a couple keys, a pack of charges and a makeover kit than I am to EVER spend 2000 gems on a mount skin. But I also won't speak for everyone, and you shouldn't either. > > i am done with you, you can't see beyond the obvious and i am tired of repeating the same old thing over and over again. > if you want to delude yourself, fine, i know better then to continue this pointless debate to a wall. I don't know why you are making it so hard for yourself. You could just have mailed him the stats you obviously got from Anet accounting, no discussion necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerronix.9752 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > The game evolved to a point where I'm not sure if having to pay to change armor skin is a good mechanic anymore. It sounds to me like Transmutation Charges come from a time where ANet didn't know yet that the game would be so cosmetic-focused. Now we can freely change our outfit, our dyes, our mount, our glider, our finisher, our gathering tools, our miniature, and our mail carrier, all for free. But armor and weapons still require Transmutation Charges. I understand that some people bought some for money and it wouldn't be nice for them to simply remove these, and there has to be some sort of compensation, but... This problem aside, is there any point keeping transmutation charges in the game? I don't see anything wrong, no MMO out there has "Free" 'Transmutation' \ 'Transmog' \ 'Skin jobs' and in each MMO I have played over the years they all require one kind of currently or another. Honestly they usually cost gold out of your inventory wallet, so the way ANet does it, is in all honestly preferable to me. As it does not touch my actually coin currency; further they provide plenty of opportunity of getting "Transmutation" charges... never found myself in need or short supply thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llethander.3972 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > > > > WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. > > > > > > One thing that Blizzard is terrible at is managing the gold economy / sinks. This is evidenced by them introducing new mounts each expansion for outrageous sums of gold (5M I think in the new one?) > > ANET is pretty good with money sinks though; if nothing else, the entire Legendary crafting process drains tons of gold out of the economy, mostly through TP fees and having to buy expensive items from vendors (*glares at icy runestones) > > So with that in mind, while in Wow the gold cost to transmute is pretty trivial, imagine how expensive it would be if ANET decided to use your idea? Keep in mind, to craft a simple 18 slot bag costs you 2 gold for the rune of holding. I'm not sure how to respond when you call the cost both trivial and expensive in the same sentence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > > > > > > WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. > > > > > > > > > > One thing that Blizzard is terrible at is managing the gold economy / sinks. This is evidenced by them introducing new mounts each expansion for outrageous sums of gold (5M I think in the new one?) > > > > ANET is pretty good with money sinks though; if nothing else, the entire Legendary crafting process drains tons of gold out of the economy, mostly through TP fees and having to buy expensive items from vendors (*glares at icy runestones) > > > > So with that in mind, while in Wow the gold cost to transmute is pretty trivial, imagine how expensive it would be if ANET decided to use your idea? Keep in mind, to craft a simple 18 slot bag costs you 2 gold for the rune of holding. > > I'm not sure how to respond when you call the cost both trivial and expensive in the same sentence... Well if you read said sentence they say that the transmute in one game is trivial but in the other it wont be since just a rune for a not max slot bag cost 2 gold what would the transmute of 1 skin cost I would say atleast 1 so for a whole armor thats minimum 6 gold a pop probabely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMANG.1903 Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > > > > > > > > WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing that Blizzard is terrible at is managing the gold economy / sinks. This is evidenced by them introducing new mounts each expansion for outrageous sums of gold (5M I think in the new one?) > > > > > > ANET is pretty good with money sinks though; if nothing else, the entire Legendary crafting process drains tons of gold out of the economy, mostly through TP fees and having to buy expensive items from vendors (*glares at icy runestones) > > > > > > So with that in mind, while in Wow the gold cost to transmute is pretty trivial, imagine how expensive it would be if ANET decided to use your idea? Keep in mind, to craft a simple 18 slot bag costs you 2 gold for the rune of holding. > > > > I'm not sure how to respond when you call the cost both trivial and expensive in the same sentence... > > Well if you read said sentence they say that the transmute in one game is trivial but in the other it wont be since just a rune for a not max slot bag cost 2 gold what would the transmute of 1 skin cost I would say atleast 1 so for a whole armor thats minimum 6 gold a pop probabely Are you saying that because bags are expensive, changing armor skin should be expensive too? I'm not really sure I get your logic there :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 > @"ROMANG.1903" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > @"Llethander.3972" said: > > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > > Please, if you still find the skin system hard go try some other MMOs, in most of them you can't avoid to look like a hobo without spending real money. Plus in most of them every time they release a new expansion your stats automatically become trash and you need to grind new levels and gear to even been able to play top content. > > > > > > > > > > WoW's Transmog system would like to have a word with you. In-game cost for in-game cosmetic changes. I think it works quite nicely and, heck, it even doubles as another gold sink to remove currency from the economy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing that Blizzard is terrible at is managing the gold economy / sinks. This is evidenced by them introducing new mounts each expansion for outrageous sums of gold (5M I think in the new one?) > > > > > > > > ANET is pretty good with money sinks though; if nothing else, the entire Legendary crafting process drains tons of gold out of the economy, mostly through TP fees and having to buy expensive items from vendors (*glares at icy runestones) > > > > > > > > So with that in mind, while in Wow the gold cost to transmute is pretty trivial, imagine how expensive it would be if ANET decided to use your idea? Keep in mind, to craft a simple 18 slot bag costs you 2 gold for the rune of holding. > > > > > > I'm not sure how to respond when you call the cost both trivial and expensive in the same sentence... > > > > Well if you read said sentence they say that the transmute in one game is trivial but in the other it wont be since just a rune for a not max slot bag cost 2 gold what would the transmute of 1 skin cost I would say atleast 1 so for a whole armor thats minimum 6 gold a pop probabely > > Are you saying that because bags are expensive, changing armor skin should be expensive too? I'm not really sure I get your logic there :/ Maybe you should read the post Llethander.3972 replies to just above mine infact as well is Llethander.3972 own post that I then reply to and you will be up to speed why I say what I do mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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