I prefer HoT to PoF

[Vayne.8563]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

>

> > You're not correct. PoF maps are not ghost towns, and I visit them many times a week, if not daily. Ghost towns implies people aren't playing. What they're not is zerged. There are plenty of people doing content on those maps.

>

> I was saying HoT maps are being played and aren't deserted despite people being so vocal about it on forums. That means HoT is fun and has a sufficiently large playerbase that likes to hop in and get some action there.

>

> As for PoF i wouldn't know. I avoid it like the plague, but others clearly don't. I can believe it's alive and well, just i don't want ppl (and most certainly devs) getting idea that PoF is the golden way, while HoT is barely surviving because of it's design choices. I can attest HoT zones are alive and kicking.

 

Yep we agree on that, and I was saying it even before Anet made the changes to it in the big April patch.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Is the quote i hear almost every 2nd post praising PoF. Here's a little something **for those gifted with higher intelligence**:

 

And this is where I stopped reading. Always a "good" idea to start a thread by insulting people who don't agree with you. Intelligence has nothing to do with one's personal preferences regarding content. Your arrogance only makes _you_ look like a fool. GG.

 

[Izzykins.8624]

** Here's a little something for those gifted with higher intelligence**

 

Well, that wasn't very nice. You made Tybalt cry in the Mists.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

>

> > You're not correct. PoF maps are not ghost towns, and I visit them many times a week, if not daily. Ghost towns implies people aren't playing. What they're not is zerged. There are plenty of people doing content on those maps.

>

> I was saying HoT maps are being played and aren't deserted despite people being so vocal about it on forums. That means HoT is fun and has a sufficiently large playerbase that likes to hop in and get some action there.

>

> As for PoF i wouldn't know. I avoid it like the plague, but others clearly don't. I can believe it's alive and well, just i don't want ppl (and most certainly devs) getting idea that PoF is the golden way, while HoT is barely surviving because of it's design choices. I can attest HoT zones are alive and kicking.

 

Profitability = fun..... The reason HoT has players is because the metas offer decent rewards. I personally hate the HoT maps but have done the Auric Basin meta many times because it was profitable. Look at Istan…. It is a post PoF map that in itself is not that interesting but gets many players because it has a meta that is profitable.

I am sure if the vanilla PoF maps had mapwide metas they too would have many players.

 

I have spent much more time roaming around in PoF than I ever did in HoT. I guess "fun" is subjective.

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> >

> > > You're not correct. PoF maps are not ghost towns, and I visit them many times a week, if not daily. Ghost towns implies people aren't playing. What they're not is zerged. There are plenty of people doing content on those maps.

> >

> > I was saying HoT maps are being played and aren't deserted despite people being so vocal about it on forums. That means HoT is fun and has a sufficiently large playerbase that likes to hop in and get some action there.

> >

> > As for PoF i wouldn't know. I avoid it like the plague, but others clearly don't. I can believe it's alive and well, just i don't want ppl (and most certainly devs) getting idea that PoF is the golden way, while HoT is barely surviving because of it's design choices. I can attest HoT zones are alive and kicking.

>

> Profitability = fun..... The reason HoT has players is because the metas offer decent rewards. I personally hate the HoT maps but have done the Auric Basin meta many times because it was profitable. Look at Istan…. It is a post PoF map that in itself is not that interesting but gets many players because it has a meta that is profitable.

> I am sure if the vanilla PoF maps had mapwide metas they too would have many players.

>

> I have spent much more time roaming around in PoF than I ever did in HoT. I guess "fun" is subjective.

>

 

Again this doesn't work for everyone...me for example and I dare say most of my guild. I did do AB a bunch of times to get an achievement and a title, but I didn't grind it, I did it when I happened to be around there when it happened to start. I barely ever run Palawadan at all. Most people don't have a lot of money in this game, because they don't farm gold. Just look at the fall off of accounts on efficiency. So many people are running around with 30-40 gold and that's what they have.

 

I agree you'll get crowds going to do a meta event that happens at 3pm in one place. But it looks like more people than it is, because everyone is there at once. There might be another three four maps that aren't interested in or doing the meta, also. It's not always about profit. Not for me anyway.

[Amaranthe.3578]

PoF maps are better imo

tangled depth makes me wanna retch

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > snip for length

>

> It's important to remember that HOT [changed a lot in the first year](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/653617/#Comment_653617 "changed a lot in the first year"). Most of the things people complained about were fully justified, but no longer exist today.

>

> If we judge the fury on release, based on HOT today, it will seem like a major over reaction, and rightly so. It's not the same now as it was then. I really feel that HOT today is the top quality content currently in the game. At release I would have violently disagreed. Even Anet seems to have made this mistake and overcompensated with POF. They didn't make the same mistakes, but they didn't keep any of the real improvements either.

>

>

 

But thats also something that could had been largely avoided with a better development strategy and a more robust testing cycle. Fixing a bunch of bugs is one thing, but pushing a game to market half-baked, and trying to finish it after the fact is a wide spread problem in the industry right now; and the practice has a lot of long term detriment for a very short sighted gain. But the more this is allowed to happen, the more we're encouraging them to do it..... but unlike GW2, most games don't bother to fix those problems after the fact. Anet probably wouldn't have spitballed design changes so intensely if it wasn't for the fear of hemorrhaging all the players they just managed to recapture. Yeah its easy to say it happened after the fact, but I lament that this has become a normal thing for nearly every game I have any interest in.

 

I think disingenuous to completely forget the problems of the past, just as much as I think its disingenuous to not give something a proper look over if its changed significantly. Unfortunately, I'm tired of having to give everything a second chance because everything else is just as bad or worse, just to find something I might be reasonably satisfied with. And what I'm finding less forgivable is that despite having a wider breadth of content in every game coming out, more of it is less about game play, and more about busy work.

 

I know this doesn't sound like I grasp the whole picture, but the whole situation has gotten increasingly more complicated to explain, and I'm finding it more and more difficult to compress into something less then 2 full posts.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I didnt like Jumping Puzzles in Vanilla, why the hell would I want a whole Jumping Puzzle Expansion?

this is why PoF> HoT

[otto.5684]

Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

 

PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

>

> PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

 

HoT map design sucks and is not supported by the minimap. The only reason HoT is still viable is because of metas.

[tym.3791]

I disagree with everyone. I say FREE COOKIES just taste better than the ones you have to pay for. Think about that. Went to grandma's and got free cookies. Got older, now you have to go to the store and pay for them, dont taste as good do they? So everyone is wrong on the maps. it has nothing to do with the maps, its all about the COOKIES!!!

[castlemanic.3198]

I hated HoT upon release, so much that I had abandoned the game until season 3 started up, and felt the huge sigh of relief upon being able to finally enjoy the game again. I've gone back through a lot of HoT with the PoF mounts, and while life is significantly better because of them (<3 griffon <3), that still doesn't remove some of the core complaints that I have about the HoT maps, some of which are core design choices that have been maintained despite the improvements over that year of development. The core philosophy of HoT is around higher difficulty requiring larger groups, which isn't something that I like being forced into to enjoy the content. I especially don't like that there are core areas of the game that you are forcibly cut off from entering until meta events are completed (mostly talking about Auric Basin and Tarir but there are other places too), and dragon's stand is the epitome of that, it's a map that I am forced to join with a large number of players and am only allowed to enjoy with a large number of players. That is design that I hate with every fibre of my being. Especially when it crosses over into HP gathering for elite specs. Are HoT maps enjoyable? Sure. Have I now started enjoying HoT with the vast number of improvements made? Yep. Does that change the fact that I hate the core design concepts behind the expansion that remain to this day? Not in the slightest. Do those core design concepts negatively affect my experience even after all those improvements? Yep.

 

Just because I can occasionally enjoy HoT content does not mean I don't become furious when a simple task is made infinitely more complicated because the content is still oriented towards groups instead of solo individuals, and that includes the use of mounts. If I could make a single change, it would be making every HP soloable, both the HP itself and the events and enemies surrounding that HP (Avatar of Balthazar is the singular thing I hate the most HP wise, especially because that HP is a channel). If I could make a second change, it would be allowing Tarir to be accessed during the meta. I have other changes that I'd make, but those two are critical in my opinion.

 

It's almost difficult to discuss why I enjoy PoF in contrast without stating that all of it's design intentions were the opposite of HoT. I like how exploration was encouraged, I like how there are places that invited me to explore dangerous places with lots of enemies. The challenges associated with carefully considering placements and being careful around enemies without resigning myself to my death for accidentally stepping one unit too close. It's weirdly ironic how I'm more open to joining group events in PoF out of curiosity and exploration than I am about joining events in HoT, because it feels more welcoming and I felt more tied to the land and the lore.

 

That's another thing too. With the high levels of danger in HoT, it was rare for me to be willing to explore and look for lore laying about in the HoT zones, I felt atively discouraged whenever I wanted to look for information and lore. In PoF, I've found myself wandering and actively looking for new places to explore, and was always happy when I stumbled upon something or used my shiny new mount or upgraded mount to explore a thing, more willing to slow down and listen to NPCs and more attentive to my surroundings and sometimes just not even look at the map because it was fun to roam around. In HoT, I only ever went looking for specific destinations, anything that seemed enticing was not something I was going to explore because I knew it would lead to some form of immediate death. I'm not even sure there IS that much lore to pick up from most places. Tarir is the most lore heavy place I can think of, but tangled depths didn't leave me enough breathing room to be interested in the lore, and Auric Basin was always concerned about the day night cycle and metas that would cut off interesting things because an event needed to be taken care of.

 

So when I talk about my dislike or even hate for HoT, it's some of the core design decisions that the fixes haven't touched and, in some ways, may not ever be able to touch. It's a shame too, because the fixes have made HoT somewhat enjoyable for me, and there is stuff that I do enjoy about HoT. But there are core things that I can't ever enjoy about it, and until those are changed, I will always put PoF as better than HoT in my preferences.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > snip for length

> >

> > It's important to remember that HOT [changed a lot in the first year](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/653617/#Comment_653617 "changed a lot in the first year"). Most of the things people complained about were fully justified, but no longer exist today.

> >

> > If we judge the fury on release, based on HOT today, it will seem like a major over reaction, and rightly so. It's not the same now as it was then. I really feel that HOT today is the top quality content currently in the game. At release I would have violently disagreed. Even Anet seems to have made this mistake and overcompensated with POF. They didn't make the same mistakes, but they didn't keep any of the real improvements either.

> >

> >

>

> But thats also something that could had been largely avoided with a better development strategy and a more robust testing cycle. Fixing a bunch of bugs is one thing, but pushing a game to market half-baked, and trying to finish it after the fact is a wide spread problem in the industry right now; and the practice has a lot of long term detriment for a very short sighted gain. But the more this is allowed to happen, the more we're encouraging them to do it..... but unlike GW2, most games don't bother to fix those problems after the fact. Anet probably wouldn't have spitballed design changes so intensely if it wasn't for the fear of hemorrhaging all the players they just managed to recapture. Yeah its easy to say it happened after the fact, but I lament that this has become a normal thing for nearly every game I have any interest in.

>

> I think disingenuous to completely forget the problems of the past, just as much as I think its disingenuous to not give something a proper look over if its changed significantly. Unfortunately, I'm tired of having to give everything a second chance because everything else is just as bad or worse, just to find something I might be reasonably satisfied with. And what I'm finding less forgivable is that despite having a wider breadth of content in every game coming out, more of it is less about game play, and more about busy work.

>

> I know this doesn't sound like I grasp the whole picture, but the whole situation has gotten increasingly more complicated to explain, and I'm finding it more and more difficult to compress into something less then 2 full posts.

 

It wasn't half baked and it was tested. Not to say it didn't have bugs, but Anet responded to the playerbase. HoT didn't come out of thing air. There were a couple of things that people didn't like that got fixed in a week or two (poison resistence being needed for the story and needing 400 points to unlock an elite spec) but that's not half baked, those were minor adjustments that happened right away.

 

The problem is Anet needs to find balance between the bulk of the players. The test server would most likely be populated by harder core players, who know how to play the game. Sadly, the game doesn't teach itself very well...not HOT, but everything that comes before HoT. If anything it's the lack of tutorial leading up to HOT that made HOT so hard for some people, not HOT itself.

 

I'm not convinced an open server would have helped at all, because those most vested are the people who'd end up playing on it.

[Westenev.5289]

If PoF was launched first, could you handle PoF for a whole 9 months (the time between HoT and LW3EP1), or run around the silverwastes for a further 2 years while waiting for the next expansion? I mean, PoF was fun, but you'd simply run out of content.

 

Seriously though, why do people want expansions to compete with eachother for players? I barely see people on obscure maps as it is.

[Ephie.1275]

lol i agree with a poster in other thread , Those who lament HOT expansion criticize the game and those who love HOT go attacking the person who hate HOT instead of debating the issue.. blame the messenger and all that..

 

no one can blame people for hating HOT just like no one can blame people for loving or hating pizza... it's a matter of taste

[Ephie.1275]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> If PoF was launched first, could you handle PoF for a whole 9 months (the time between HoT and LW3EP1), or run around the silverwastes for a further 2 years while waiting for the next expansion? I mean, PoF was fun, but you'd simply run out of content.

>

> Seriously though, why do people want expansions to compete with eachother for players? I barely see people on obscure maps as it is.

 

stop spreading lies , POF is not empty and people still there doing group stuff..

 

do not lie just to prop your 'HOT is better' crap

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Quick reminder that those that left the game when Heart of Thorns was released missed the big balance update for it. For example, when HoT was released you had to play the events before the big meta began and increase your participation, in order to get rewarded by the meta. This meant that players had to spend a significant amount of time to get their meta rewards. I can understand why that would turn many players away of the game, but hey that was "fixed" a very long time ago. I can say that HoT on release was worse than PoF on release, as evident by how much it changed over the years while PoF remained mostly the same.

>

> And the meta structure was only one part of what HoT got wrong. There was also nothing to do in HoT areas once you finished the outpost events, other than wait for the meta. They fixed that by adding lots of repeating events around the areas so you have more to do while waiting for the meta. There were locked adventures for the majority of the time (Shooting Gallery prime example) that were really annoying. They fixed that by making most adventures readily available, unless (for obvious reasons) there are events running right next to them. There were more champion hero points back on release, they made lots of them veterans, especially in Verdant Brink so players could progress their elite specs faster. They reduced the challenge levels of some mobs that were really problematic on release and killed many unsuspecting players (like the release Shadowleapers, or does anyone remember the Mordrem Snipers in beta?)

>

> Overall, HoT changed A LOT over the years, while PoF is still mostly the same, in that way PoF is better than HoT. But after those massive changes, HoT has become a better experience than PoF, and they should've used the -modified- HoT as an example for their future expansion.

>

> Edit: I believe those returning now and saying that PoF is much better than HoT and that they left when HoT was released, remember the release mess of HoT and compare it to PoF, in that way they are right. But I think it will be fair if they compare current HoT, with current PoF instead.

 

I agree that it is more fair to compare current HoT to current PoF. I chose to not buy HoT at launch due to advertised aspects of the xpac. I wasnt willing to pay full price for what was being offered. Comparing PoF to the HoT I purchased months after launch, I can say that I like PoF and dislike HoT. I understand that not everyone shares my view but, to me, PoF is the superior addition to the game.

[Patchwreck.2357]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> Is the quote i hear almost every 2nd post praising PoF. Here's a little something for those gifted with higher intelligence:

> Why do we never hear the opposite?

> ....

>

>

>

> **Answer:** because HoT is there saving PoF's kitten for those who would quit because of PoF pancake map design. They don't like it? They got HoT. If PoF launched first (which should happen as it is far closer to core experience then revolutionary HoT) you'd be reading walls of texts how Path of Fire made ppl go away, and now Heart of Thorns made them come back.

>

> **conclusion** - all this whining is not result of HoT being a disaster (it's amazing if you ask me), it's a matter of ppl wanting different things from an expansion, which obviously a single xpac could not meet. Now that 2nd is out, it doesn't get half the flack, because first one caters to group that is not happy with second, a safety net HoT did not have.

 

 

You are correct, it takes a genius to blob around playing super mario brothers.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> I agree that it is more fair to compare current HoT to current PoF. I chose to not buy HoT at launch due to advertised aspects of the xpac. I wasnt willing to pay full price for what was being offered. Comparing PoF to the HoT I purchased months after launch, I can say that I like PoF and dislike HoT. I understand that not everyone shares my view but, to me, PoF is the superior addition to the game.

 

Of course. I was only pointing out that many of the "faults" of HoT we read in similar threads is things that are already fixed and some really weird selective memory issues. You don't have to like HoT more than PoF, everyone will like one of the expansion for their own reasons but at least let's have valid arguments on why and not dismiss HoT for reasons that no longer exist.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Ephie.1275" said:

> lol i agree with a poster in other thread , Those who lament HOT expansion criticize the game and those who love HOT go attacking the person who hate HOT instead of debating the issue.. blame the messenger and all that..

>

> no one can blame people for hating HOT just like no one can blame people for loving or hating pizza... it's a matter of taste

 

Well, you can blame people for jumping on a bandwagon and taking people's word for stuff, without actually knowing. A guy in my guild the other day was complaining that he couldn't get the meta in Vabbi because know when does it anymore. Where did he get the info? From a post on the official forums.

 

While we were talking I popped open LFG and TTS was running it at that moment. Crazy coincidence, but there you are. He looked up, read that he couldn't get what he wanted and believed it.

 

I've lost count of the number of people who thought they hated HoT until I showed them how to handle it. Hint, it wasn't one or two people, it's been dozens.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

> >

> > PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

>

> HoT map design sucks and is not supported by the minimap. The only reason HoT is still viable is because of metas.

 

I agree and disagree. I absolutely hate the multi-level design of the areas (maps are indeed inadequate) but on the other hand they are perfectly designed to support their amazing metas.

 

Auric Basin in particular is a masterpiece of game design in that regard.

 

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

> >

> > PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

>

> HoT map design sucks and is not supported by the minimap. The only reason HoT is still viable is because of metas.

 

I agree in regard to Tangled Depth. Auric Basin, Verdant Brink and Dragon stand are masterpieces from map design standpoint. Auric Basin and Verdant in particular, could be regarded as an MMO example of excellence in design of map flow and immersion.

 

As for the mini map, it does not work well when there is any verticality. It is not a "HoT" exclusive problem. Though, the limitation in the mini map is not a reason or an excuse not to include verticality , as long as it adds value to the maps.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

> > >

> > > PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

> >

> > HoT map design sucks and is not supported by the minimap. The only reason HoT is still viable is because of metas.

>

> I agree in regard to Tangled Depth. Auric Basin, Verdant Brink and Dragon stand are masterpieces from map design standpoint. Auric Basin and Verdant in particular, could be regarded as an MMO example of excellence in design of map flow and immersion.

>

> As for the mini map, it does not work well when there is any verticality. It is not a "HoT" exclusive problem. Though, the limitation in the mini map is not a reason or an excuse not to include verticality , as long as it adds value to the maps.

 

I don't find obstacle courses or mazes as brilliant map design for an mmo. This is more in the genre of platformers or puzzle games. I find the HoT maps tedious and gimmicky.

[otto.5684]

> @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are far more active than any other HoT or PoF maps (LW maps not included). After the next expansion PoF maps will be completely dead and Auric Basin and Verdant Brink will still be active.

> > > >

> > > > PoF maps are the lowest point in map design. Empty deserts with tiny islands of boring content.

> > >

> > > HoT map design sucks and is not supported by the minimap. The only reason HoT is still viable is because of metas.

> >

> > I agree in regard to Tangled Depth. Auric Basin, Verdant Brink and Dragon stand are masterpieces from map design standpoint. Auric Basin and Verdant in particular, could be regarded as an MMO example of excellence in design of map flow and immersion.

> >

> > As for the mini map, it does not work well when there is any verticality. It is not a "HoT" exclusive problem. Though, the limitation in the mini map is not a reason or an excuse not to include verticality , as long as it adds value to the maps.

>

> I don't find obstacle courses or mazes as brilliant map design for an mmo. This is more in the genre of platformers or puzzle games. I find the HoT maps tedious and gimmicky.

 

Auric Basin and Verdant Brink are not, by any stretch, mazes or even remotely confusing.

[Warkind.6745]

If HoT gave me a real boss fight at the end instead of a glorified rock elemental, maybe I would like it more.