Constructive Suggestions for Stealth and Thief.

[MUDse.7623]

with deadeye becoming more and more popular, the usuall amount of 'nerf stealth' threads increased and they will increase more when the average deadeye becomes better. most of these complains while understandable suggest only changes like 'less stealth' or 'more reveal', yet their issue is allways only the invisibility not all the traits we have that interact with the stealth effect and rarely our stealth attacks. both 'less stealth' and 'more reveal' are therefore unlikely to happen as that would devalue those traits and stealth attacks or the malice mechanic tied to them way too much.

as i dont want to repeat my suggestion too much and it getting lost among just QQ instead of constructive posts, i would like to gather suggestions on how to change stealth, reveal, our traits etc. in a way that will make the fights more fun, more interactive and without making stealth as such and everything tied to it useless. feel free to add complete new suggestions or coment on ones made. _i would like to keep it contructive and at topic, its not about nerfing stealth its about changing stealth_. please read all of a suggestion before replying to it.

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i would personally like stealth to be seen more like an effect, like a stance (not the skill type) . therefor simply an unstrippable boon, like empower allies , banners , etc. at base it just grants invisibility and any profession can be affected by it, be it with combos, a rune or AoE stealth skills. because you will be visible for more or less the entire fight to your opponent i want to reduce the investment one has to make for stealth, so i would like to double all stealth durations be it from skills, traits , combos or else.

now some thief specific changes to SA to make it into a support line:

* shadow protector now grants 3s of protection aswell.

* resilliance of shadows damage reduction reduced from 25% to 15%.

* cloaked in shadows crit immunity would be too strong for this new stealth, i would like to give 3s of alacrity here. sure the thief itself only profits in utilities from it but this should be a support role.

* traits affecting the stealth effect now affect all stealth effects outgoing from the thief. therefore your allies aswell will get condi cleanse from shadows embrace, they will get heals from shadows rejuvenation, protection and regen from shadow protector, alacrity from cloaked in shadows, damage reduction from resilliance of shadows and so on depending on what you trait.

* meld with shadows: when you grant yourself stealth, grant it with 50% of its duration to allies around you radius X ( would need help of someone with more experience especially in PvE to know how much one needs to reach allies reliably without too much hassle. maybe between 420-600)

 

with that one could change the support roles currently used in PvE from chrono (alacrity, quickness, tank) + druid (heals, might) to DE (alacrity, might) + FB (quickness, heals, tank).

 

now to the more important part: interaction with opponents.

stealth ends currently when you attack someone out of it (as well as when you use a trap or trick in WvW, this should stay) or get revealed. i want stealth as an effect not to end unless it runs out, so we can keep using our SA traits while fighting. every time we apply an instance of stealth our 1st weaponskill gets replaced by the stealth attack of it and when used no matter if successfully used or missed, it is replaced by the AA again till a new instance of stealth is applied. so for more interaction we got the thieves side covered, we now can sustain a little in a fight while attacking as our SA line is pretty defensive, without relying only on hit avoiding mechanics like evades and teleports. when stealth is not broken we still need a way to deal with invisibility. for this i would like a new effect 'True Sight' wich lets you see stealthed opponents in a 2k radius around you (not stackable but highest duration remains). it should be applied in various ways:

* when hitting a stealthed opponent. 1s

* when getting hit by a stealthed opponent 10s

* stealth skills apply it at the beginning of their cast to their target. for 3s (will be replaced right after on hit with the above 10s) is mainly for DJ

* skills/traits that currently grant reveal will give instead 6s 'true sight'

 

further with longer AoE stealth skills when hitting a target from stealth, that does not have 'true sight' effect, your damage is reduced by 50%. as stealth skills applay true sight on cast, they allways apply full damage.

 

with this you can still use stealth to pick a fight, you can even better than before use it to pick a target from an uncoordinated group if you only deal single target damage. but once you engaged in a fight with an opponent he will most likely see you the entire fight, no target breaks. because to gain stealth again you would need to let stealth run out for 10s giving up all traits, skills etc relateted to it or stop attacking for 10s. with that it also wont make much of a change for classes that just use little stealth like Holos aside from an easier stealth ambush opener (longer stealth) that deals less damage as a tradeoff. there will be just more fight to it. you can still choose to play with little stealth and it wont make much of a difference than to you. but if you want to and invest into SA this would give us the option for a bruiser playstyle as we can take hits than and dont have to play 'avoid all hits' like we have basically with any build since gw2 release. it would be the most interactive way to play your thief, the way with the most traded hits.

 

i was very generous towards the thief with such a suggestion in some areas as it is pretty difficult to compensate the target breaks and make thief actually able to take hits and i think i also was generous in the suggestions as to what grants true sight and its duration, this should ensure if a stealth thief picks a fight he has to commit to it and fight to the end.

it would be a huge change that i would like to see first in live and not just on paper, before making further adjustments personally to possibly too weak or too strong aspects of it. my main goal is to increase the interaction during the fight , without reducing the ability to pick the fight.

 

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so if you have any other way of stealth, the thieves interaction with it or it counters, i would like to hear your suggestions as well as commets on my suggestion.

 

[Safandula.8723]

Personally i think league of legends has a good solution. Upon receiving dmg stealthed character should get some visible effect around himself. It wouldnt completly reveal, but it gives some counter play.

I would give those ticks timer of: 1,5s for being power damaged and 3s for condi.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Stealth-sharing would become a huge problem with this suggestion. Two Deadeyes could keep 10 people permanently stealthed by sharing smoke fields and comboing each other. Let's consider stealth-sharing setups on builds like Worldly Impact Soulbeast, Eviscerate Warrior, or Reaper with Gravedigger.

 

Further, this entire suggestion kind of hinges on some major reworks needing to happen and makes some huge assumptions about how core thief and Daredevil work. Initiative costs would need to plummet, especially on stealth-gaining abilities, in order to justify the thief not being able to reset to keep itself capable of fighting while visible. Being hit also forcing the "True Sight" mechanic is also not cognizant of a lot of matchups nor core mechanics; how does a x/D build ever get stealth via CnD into AoE-based matchups like Scourge? Or Soulbeast with Prelude Lash or Entangle which ignore stealth outright? Or a warrior using whirlwind randomly as an evade? Or any guardian with their symbols constantly generating PbAoE? The list goes on and on. Action Camera also enables attacks that require a target to no longer require targets at all; ranged attacks like Rapid Fire and Unload can be sprayed-and-prayed at the reticle on stealthed targets to generate the initial hits; this would effectively negate the entire purpose of stealth, except to SA builds (and even then, it'd be pretty bad still). But then we're left with the exact same problems from 2012/2013: Thief runs SA or dies to a stiff breeze.

 

A lot of nuanced builds and ideas get scrapped with this suggestion, too. Ninja nurse no longer becomes thematically viable because it'll immediately become visible if trying to res a downed player which WILL get its corpse bombed.

 

Which is I guess the real problem here: The only actual build this whole idea works with is rifle DE and to some extent Assassin's Signet SA D/P permastealth thief. Everything else immediately becomes totally unviable.

 

I won't even address further punishment from missing the stealth attack. Play core. Play D/D. Good players will negate the backstab on some level 75% of the time. I'm all for flipping the skill to AA in between the stealth attack ICD - but extra levels of punishment just aren't necessary, especially when again, the punishment hits the wrong builds and the wrong kits; D/P and rifle permastealth end up the only consistent kits for engaging because they can deny the ability for an opponent to react within a timeframe.

 

Then there are problems like in sPvP where stealth is used to move around the map undiscovered for +1's. True Sight then needs special rules considering a number of maps aren't much larger than 2000 units, which defeats the purpose of using stealth for tactical play. Which for decaps and +1's mesmers are already proving just as capable at, if not more so.

 

The problems with stealth have been and always will be stealth-stacking/sustained stealth and there's just nothing more to it, which my first point addresses in respects to why stealth-sharing is no good.

 

It's honestly frustrating to have to keep reiterating this. It's been six years of me trying to get this point across. And every time it becomes a problem the thief finds itself weaker and nerfed elsewhere to force it into a gimmick build, and every time it's addressed, the thief ends up stronger and fairer with fewer complaints levied against it.

[Tails.9372]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> 'less stealth' or 'more reveal'

I'd actually like to see more "revealed" in some areas, with the introduction of the rifle which is basically a flat out superior version of what P/P "used to be" (and more) I feel like P/P lost all its (practical) purpose. I'd like to see a meaningfull difference in regards to how these weapons play and since rifle mainly focuses on stealth and burst damage I feel like P/P sould be geared more towards direct engagements and sustainability. People always wanted to have the option to play thief more like a "duelist" and while not everyone is a fan of dual pistols (which could be said about pretty much everything) the whole gunslinger theme is a lot more fitting for this kind of stuff than for the stealth focused gameplay other weapon sets are based around. Furthermore we already have traits which profit from the player being revealed which are almost pointless right now but would be a lot more useful if P/P skills applied the "revealed" debuff. At this point I wouldn't even mind if they restrict pistol usage to X/P and P/X and make P/P an e-spec weapon set, both the severe shift in ton and gameplay compared to the other core stuff would warrant such a change.

[Dadnir.5038]

Why not granting it the statut of an "aura"?

 

Edit: Nvm, this would create more issues than it would reduce.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Stealth-sharing would become a huge problem with this suggestion. Two Deadeyes could keep 10 people permanently stealthed by sharing smoke fields and comboing each other. Let's consider stealth-sharing setups on builds like Worldly Impact Soulbeast, Eviscerate Warrior, or Reaper with Gravedigger.

>

thats why they deal 50% less damage untill their target has true sight.

> Further, this entire suggestion kind of hinges on some major reworks needing to happen and makes some huge assumptions about how core thief and Daredevil work. Initiative costs would need to plummet, especially on stealth-gaining abilities, in order to justify the thief not being able to reset to keep itself capable of fighting while visible. Being hit also forcing the "True Sight" mechanic is also not cognizant of a lot of matchups nor core mechanics; how does a x/D build ever get stealth via CnD into AoE-based matchups like Scourge? Or Soulbeast with Prelude Lash or Entangle which ignore stealth outright? Or a warrior using whirlwind randomly as an evade? Or any guardian with their symbols constantly generating PbAoE? The list goes on and on. Action Camera also enables attacks that require a target to no longer require targets at all; ranged attacks like Rapid Fire and Unload can be sprayed-and-prayed at the reticle on stealthed targets to generate the initial hits; this would effectively negate the entire purpose of stealth, except to SA builds (and even then, it'd be pretty bad still). But then we're left with the exact same problems from 2012/2013: Thief runs SA or dies to a stiff breeze.

>

i said to double stealth durations, to reduce the cost of stealth. isnt 6-8s stealth from on CnD enough? that CnD is hard to apply wont be anything new, thats already the case. you only will be truely invisible to your target before the fight. while you can be hit before that rarely happens if you approach already in stealth were AoE/action cam would be an option to attack.

> A lot of nuanced builds and ideas get scrapped with this suggestion, too. Ninja nurse no longer becomes thematically viable because it'll immediately become visible if trying to res a downed player which WILL get its corpse bombed.

>

i didnt know ninja nurse was viable to begin with. if they know were the target is they can already bomb it.

> Which is I guess the real problem here: The only actual build this whole idea works with is rifle DE and to some extent Assassin's Signet SA D/P permastealth thief. Everything else immediately becomes totally unviable.

>

any other build only on thief only uses stealth sporadically or to apply a stealth attack so they wont even be affected by true sight much, yet you were soo against an easier to apply backstab in the other thread that i didnt want to give you a reason to cry about it again.

> I won't even address further punishment from missing the stealth attack. Play core. Play D/D. Good players will negate the backstab on some level 75% of the time. I'm all for flipping the skill to AA in between the stealth attack ICD - but extra levels of punishment just aren't necessary, especially when again, the punishment hits the wrong builds and the wrong kits; D/P and rifle permastealth end up the only consistent kits for engaging because they can deny the ability for an opponent to react within a timeframe.

>

again core d/d is NOT viable now, why do you expect a suggestion to fix your non viable build? d/d and p/p need their weapon skills changed more than just the 3, but that is for a different topic.

> Then there are problems like in sPvP where stealth is used to move around the map undiscovered for +1's. True Sight then needs special rules considering a number of maps aren't much larger than 2000 units, which defeats the purpose of using stealth for tactical play. Which for decaps and +1's mesmers are already proving just as capable at, if not more so.

>

if the target dies it no longer has true sight, true sight is not permanent. you better only attack targets that die if you dont want people to see where you go.

> The problems with stealth have been and always will be stealth-stacking/sustained stealth and there's just nothing more to it, which my first point addresses in respects to why stealth-sharing is no good.

>

stacking is only an issue for engage/disengage. thats why if you attack from invisibility you will deal less damage and wont be able to use stealth to escape after fighting anymore.

> It's honestly frustrating to have to keep reiterating this. It's been six years of me trying to get this point across. And every time it becomes a problem the thief finds itself weaker and nerfed elsewhere to force it into a gimmick build, and every time it's addressed, the thief ends up stronger and fairer with fewer complaints levied against it.

 

it is also very frustrating to keep seeing you turn every topic into : 'my power core d/d thief'. and as it is not viable, everything affecting it in a negativ way is a no go. if i suggest something that improves it than you come again how d/p and what not profits more from it. what every i say unless i make suggestions to only your build specifically you will be against it for reasons.

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

1) The first problem is that the skills provided to counter stealth are mostly lame. Other than Tainted Shackle and Detection Pulse, all of them have useless range/radius.

- They need to improve the range of these anti-Stealth skills to at least 600 radius.

- Sick'em should command the pet to howl and reveal everything in a 600 radius instead of requiring a target.

- Light's Judgment Trigger and Attack radius should remain the same, but increase the reveal radius to at least 600.

 

2) The other problem is Revealed. Revealed should not end Stealth IMO.

- It should only make the Thief or anyone invisible visible.

- This way the traits and effects that the Thief has will not prematurely end.

- As it stands, Revealed counters the whole SA trait line, not just invisibility, and locks Stealth Attacks.

- Revealed is the most unfair mechanic in the game when it comes to Thief.

 

3) Stealth should not drop target.

- Dropping target should only happen if the target goes out of range.

- If this is implemented, Resilience of Shadows can be buffed to 50% damage reduction, for example.

- This allows counterplay at the same time not depriving the Thief its defense mechanism.

 

4) Thief should have an innate skill to detect stealthed enemies and traps within 600 range. No special skill or trait required.

- This will make the Thief a very unique profession and a must have in a lot of situations.

 

5) After 1-4, allow stealth capping in PvP.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> 1) The first problem is that the skills provided to counter stealth are mostly lame. Other than Tainted Shackle and Detection Pulse, all of them have useless range/radius.

> - They need to improve the range of these anti-Stealth skills to at least 600 radius.

> - Sick'em should command the pet to howl and reveal everything in a 600 radius instead of requiring a target.

> - Light's Judgment Trigger and Attack radius should remain the same, but increase the reveal radius to at least 600.

>

> 2) The other problem is Revealed. Revealed should not end Stealth IMO.

> - It should only make the Thief or anyone invisible visible.

> - This way the traits and effects that the Thief has will not prematurely end.

> - As it stands, Revealed counters the whole SA trait line, not just invisibility, and locks Stealth Attacks.

> - Revealed is the most unfair mechanic in the game when it comes to Thief.

>

> 3) Stealth should not drop target.

> - Dropping target should only happen if the target goes out of range.

> - If this is implemented, Resilience of Shadows can be buffed to 50% damage reduction, for example.

> - This allows counterplay at the same time not depriving the Thief its defense mechanism.

>

> 4) Thief should have an innate skill to detect stealthed enemies and traps within 600 range. No special skill or trait required.

> - This will make the Thief a very unique profession and a must have in a lot of situations.

>

> 5) After 1-4, allow stealth capping in PvP.

 

1&2)making reveal only a counter to invisibility not stealth itself is another way to go about it, wich probably requires less effort on Anet part.

one big issue of many that i did chat with ingame is that reveal skills are unreliable and i am not sure if just a radius increase will make them more usefull.

take a scrapper for example. their detection pulse is awesome and i really need to be careful around a group with a scrapper. yet just on scrapper him revealing me on 1k range doesnt really help him as he first has to find me revealed (FoV is not 360°) and then he will have only limited skill that he can throw at me from that range. increasing the radius maybe will make them not lose track as easily, but it wont help them to fight a thief at all, at least not in 1 vs 1. reveals on range are only usefull if you outnumber the thief by far. so while it would be an improvement for me, i am not sure people currently having an issue with stealth would see their isse adressed much with just some radius buffs.

3) i am not sure how do you picture stealth not dropping target. will it not drop target at all, or will you get the target back when they leave stealth? how do targeted skills work on a stealthed target if you keep them locked while ins stealth and what happens if you gain target back after stealth but you swapped to another target in between?

4) thieves should really have an option to see other stealthed players somehow, we are the masters of stealth after all. seeing traps would be a nice bonus.

5) i wanted to add that to my suggestion too but left it out for now as i feared it would drag the topic maybe to only that :)

 

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > 1) The first problem is that the skills provided to counter stealth are mostly lame. Other than Tainted Shackle and Detection Pulse, all of them have useless range/radius.

> > - They need to improve the range of these anti-Stealth skills to at least 600 radius.

> > - Sick'em should command the pet to howl and reveal everything in a 600 radius instead of requiring a target.

> > - Light's Judgment Trigger and Attack radius should remain the same, but increase the reveal radius to at least 600.

> >

> > 2) The other problem is Revealed. Revealed should not end Stealth IMO.

> > - It should only make the Thief or anyone invisible visible.

> > - This way the traits and effects that the Thief has will not prematurely end.

> > - As it stands, Revealed counters the whole SA trait line, not just invisibility, and locks Stealth Attacks.

> > - Revealed is the most unfair mechanic in the game when it comes to Thief.

> >

> > 3) Stealth should not drop target.

> > - Dropping target should only happen if the target goes out of range.

> > - If this is implemented, Resilience of Shadows can be buffed to 50% damage reduction, for example.

> > - This allows counterplay at the same time not depriving the Thief its defense mechanism.

> >

> > 4) Thief should have an innate skill to detect stealthed enemies and traps within 600 range. No special skill or trait required.

> > - This will make the Thief a very unique profession and a must have in a lot of situations.

> >

> > 5) After 1-4, allow stealth capping in PvP.

>

> 1&2)making reveal only a counter to invisibility not stealth itself is another way to go about it, wich probably requires less effort on Anet part.

> one big issue of many that i did chat with ingame is that reveal skills are unreliable and i am not sure if just a radius increase will make them more usefull.

> take a scrapper for example. their detection pulse is awesome and i really need to be careful around a group with a scrapper. yet just on scrapper him revealing me on 1k range doesnt really help him as he first has to find me revealed (FoV is not 360°) and then he will have only limited skill that he can throw at me from that range. increasing the radius maybe will make them not lose track as easily, but it wont help them to fight a thief at all, at least not in 1 vs 1. reveals on range are only usefull if you outnumber the thief by far. so while it would be an improvement for me, i am not sure people currently having an issue with stealth would see their isse adressed much with just some radius buffs.

 

If the Scrapper doesn't know what to do after Revealing the Thief, that is really a problem of that player, not the Thief. Besides, I'm simply highlighting how useless the anti-stealth skills as is.

 

> 3) i am not sure how do you picture stealth not dropping target. will it not drop target at all, or will you get the target back when they leave stealth? how do targeted skills work on a stealthed target if you keep them locked while ins stealth and what happens if you gain target back after stealth but you swapped to another target in between?

 

If you have a Thief locked then they went in stealth, you should maintain lock until they get out of range or you switched target. The range would be 600 (2 dodge distance) or whatever number is fair.

 

The Thief would have to back away after stealth if they want to drop target. This will give a short window of opportunity to counterplay.

 

If the Thief stayed in range and the opponent didn't switch target, the Thief will remain as the target as if they are Revealed albeit still invisible.

 

This would basically function like how Rapid Fire stays on target during the channel when the Thief goes in stealth.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > 3) i am not sure how do you picture stealth not dropping target. will it not drop target at all, or will you get the target back when they leave stealth? how do targeted skills work on a stealthed target if you keep them locked while ins stealth and what happens if you gain target back after stealth but you swapped to another target in between?

>

> If you have a Thief locked then they went in stealth, you should maintain lock until they get out of range or you switched target. The range would be 600 (2 dodge distance) or whatever number is fair.

>

> The Thief would have to back away after stealth if they want to drop target. This will give a short window of opportunity to counterplay.

>

> If the Thief stayed in range and the opponent didn't switch target, the Thief will remain as the target as if they are Revealed albeit still invisible.

>

> This would basically function like how Rapid Fire stays on target during the channel when the Thief goes in stealth.

 

ok, but can you still cast targeted skills than on the thief you dont see? like teleports or movement skills or range attacks? or does the game just keep your target locked but without the character knowing where the stealthed opponent is?

i think if the game just keeps the target with a greyed out healthbar or such till they appear again than the range can be larger, but if you still can use the games 'aimbot' that is part of all targeted skills, then the range has to remain more limited wich still will make for easier target breaks and it would be harder to get a good balance on them for both range and melee weapons the same. because with 600 range i would get an instant targetdrop mostly with rifle for example.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Stealth-sharing would become a huge problem with this suggestion. Two Deadeyes could keep 10 people permanently stealthed by sharing smoke fields and comboing each other. Let's consider stealth-sharing setups on builds like Worldly Impact Soulbeast, Eviscerate Warrior, or Reaper with Gravedigger.

> >

> thats why they deal 50% less damage untill their target has true sight.

> > Further, this entire suggestion kind of hinges on some major reworks needing to happen and makes some huge assumptions about how core thief and Daredevil work. Initiative costs would need to plummet, especially on stealth-gaining abilities, in order to justify the thief not being able to reset to keep itself capable of fighting while visible. Being hit also forcing the "True Sight" mechanic is also not cognizant of a lot of matchups nor core mechanics; how does a x/D build ever get stealth via CnD into AoE-based matchups like Scourge? Or Soulbeast with Prelude Lash or Entangle which ignore stealth outright? Or a warrior using whirlwind randomly as an evade? Or any guardian with their symbols constantly generating PbAoE? The list goes on and on. Action Camera also enables attacks that require a target to no longer require targets at all; ranged attacks like Rapid Fire and Unload can be sprayed-and-prayed at the reticle on stealthed targets to generate the initial hits; this would effectively negate the entire purpose of stealth, except to SA builds (and even then, it'd be pretty bad still). But then we're left with the exact same problems from 2012/2013: Thief runs SA or dies to a stiff breeze.

> >

> i said to double stealth durations, to reduce the cost of stealth. isnt 6-8s stealth from on CnD enough? that CnD is hard to apply wont be anything new, thats already the case. you only will be truely invisible to your target before the fight. while you can be hit before that rarely happens if you approach already in stealth were AoE/action cam would be an option to attack.

> > A lot of nuanced builds and ideas get scrapped with this suggestion, too. Ninja nurse no longer becomes thematically viable because it'll immediately become visible if trying to res a downed player which WILL get its corpse bombed.

> >

> i didnt know ninja nurse was viable to begin with. if they know were the target is they can already bomb it.

> > Which is I guess the real problem here: The only actual build this whole idea works with is rifle DE and to some extent Assassin's Signet SA D/P permastealth thief. Everything else immediately becomes totally unviable.

> >

> any other build only on thief only uses stealth sporadically or to apply a stealth attack so they wont even be affected by true sight much, yet you were soo against an easier to apply backstab in the other thread that i didnt want to give you a reason to cry about it again.

> > I won't even address further punishment from missing the stealth attack. Play core. Play D/D. Good players will negate the backstab on some level 75% of the time. I'm all for flipping the skill to AA in between the stealth attack ICD - but extra levels of punishment just aren't necessary, especially when again, the punishment hits the wrong builds and the wrong kits; D/P and rifle permastealth end up the only consistent kits for engaging because they can deny the ability for an opponent to react within a timeframe.

> >

> again core d/d is NOT viable now, why do you expect a suggestion to fix your non viable build? d/d and p/p need their weapon skills changed more than just the 3, but that is for a different topic.

> > Then there are problems like in sPvP where stealth is used to move around the map undiscovered for +1's. True Sight then needs special rules considering a number of maps aren't much larger than 2000 units, which defeats the purpose of using stealth for tactical play. Which for decaps and +1's mesmers are already proving just as capable at, if not more so.

> >

> if the target dies it no longer has true sight, true sight is not permanent. you better only attack targets that die if you dont want people to see where you go.

> > The problems with stealth have been and always will be stealth-stacking/sustained stealth and there's just nothing more to it, which my first point addresses in respects to why stealth-sharing is no good.

> >

> stacking is only an issue for engage/disengage. thats why if you attack from invisibility you will deal less damage and wont be able to use stealth to escape after fighting anymore.

> > It's honestly frustrating to have to keep reiterating this. It's been six years of me trying to get this point across. And every time it becomes a problem the thief finds itself weaker and nerfed elsewhere to force it into a gimmick build, and every time it's addressed, the thief ends up stronger and fairer with fewer complaints levied against it.

>

> it is also very frustrating to keep seeing you turn every topic into : 'my power core d/d thief'. and as it is not viable, everything affecting it in a negativ way is a no go. if i suggest something that improves it than you come again how d/p and what not profits more from it. what every i say unless i make suggestions to only your build specifically you will be against it for reasons.

>

 

I'm just going to respond again that your view is one which is extremely narrow and lacks scope compared to the original vision of the class, the game's combat systems, and alternative options for the class.

 

Being willing to completely and totally sideline any off-meta builds/playstyles on the basis that "they're not dominant already so it doesn't matter," is a horrible mentality to have and stifles innovation and adaptation into the future.

 

I get it. You enjoy your SA Deadeye, and you're happy and fortunate that it's considered a dominant dueling build. That's fine. But it doesn't give you any precedence whatsoever to try and throw everyone else who has different opinions of the game, the class's integrity, and overall perceptions of "fairness" under the bus. You consistently state the problem is one thing, while completely ignoring debates of the past, discussions and perceptions from previous pro-level players, and ignoring the entire premise of the entirety of OH dagger as a weapon.

 

Most of what you have historically proposed simply just **breaks** D/P or simply nerfs D/D outright into a more worthless state than it already is in, like this suggestion. I'm going to disagree with any suggestion that directly nerfs builds that already have poor performance. I spend a majority of my time in S/D (because D/D is bad for anything beyond the initial engage) and advocated for the FS/LS damage nerfs because they were warranted. This isn't a matter of "my build must benefit." My posts are always catered towards making the best change for the game as a whole, which is why I've historically advocated for nerfs to my own builds when I've deemed them overpowered. I've trained a LOT of players for D/D over my course of playing the thief. All of them no longer play, and they all quit either the profession itself or the game because of the persistent uselessness of the kit. That's just my personal experience, and given how many people downright stopped playing because of this phenomenon on all professions, it's totally unacceptable to uphold the mentality that weak kits should be kept so drastically weak in relation to their stronger counterparts.

 

D/P isn't played much anymore because it's weak in it of itself; it's just not played because of the current meta and some of its counters just being overtuned. So needless buffs to MH dagger as a whole are not cognizant of the real problems at hand, because general improvements to MH dagger do not improve the weapons in relation to the game or even each other.

 

My point was to broaden your horizons and then reconsider what your post suggests. Because put bluntly, your suggestion just isn't a good one when taking into account the greater class/game.

 

Your response doesn't answer my initial concern, anyways: stealth sharing to other classes. Which WILL be overpowered, because there's no penalty imposed on said other classes, which you even directly addressed in your OP. And then if there is a penalty, stealth becomes a near-worthless mechanic to share to anyone, making the suggestion as a whole accomplish very little but mostly just nerfing people out of builds catered to be built with more counterplay.

 

What this suggestion does is creates counterplay for the "unfair" builds out there while just decimating the rest.

[Bazsi.2734]

Your suggested changes would take away the dynamism of stealth(doubled duration make it way more easy and passive gameplay to maintain permastealth, and you even want to make it more AoE then it already is), and would also eliminate any melee/midrange builds that want to use stealth more often then once every 10 seconds. D/P daredevil, power ranger/mesmer.... they would all be screwed by this true sight.

So you can easily permastealth yourself (and your teammates) going into the fight, but during the fights stealthing is extremely limited... if I'd want that I could go play rouge in WoW.

Also how does targeting work when half of your team sees the target but the rest can't?

Also how do you know your stealth is working in the chaos of battle? Enemies can have true sight indepent from what you're doing.

Also speaking of true sight: how could you balance this? Sic'Em for example: if only the ranger get's true sight, it's almost useless for catching stealthed targets. If it applies true sight to nearby allies aswell, it's way too strong, revealing every enemy for every ally is game changing.

 

The more I think about this, the worse it gets. Why would I run a sneaky build in PvP with your version of stealth? It's only good for landing an opener(try connecting a backstab when the enemy SEES YOU), but not even that if the opponent uses true sight well.

 

Too much work to implement, and wouldn't achive a better gameplay. Easier fix is, don't roam WvW alone and don't wear your raid-dps armor, so you dont get owned by a 18K backstab out of stealth.

 

The worst thing is, I don't have anything to add on my own. The entire game without DE is totally fine stealth-wise, but A-net doubled(then tripled) down on DE being a stealth heavy spec with the rework and the adjustments ever since. My only idea is "undo the rework", but we all know that wont happen.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Delete shadow arts - delete shadow meld - only make malice gain on hit and not only iniaitve spent.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> Your suggested changes would take away the dynamism of stealth(doubled duration make it way more easy and passive gameplay to maintain permastealth, and you even want to make it more AoE then it already is), and would also eliminate any melee/midrange builds that want to use stealth more often then once every 10 seconds. D/P daredevil, power ranger/mesmer.... they would all be screwed by this true sight.

> So you can easily permastealth yourself (and your teammates) going into the fight, but during the fights stealthing is extremely limited... if I'd want that I could go play rouge in WoW.

> Also how does targeting work when half of your team sees the target but the rest can't?

> Also how do you know your stealth is working in the chaos of battle? Enemies can have true sight indepent from what you're doing.

> Also speaking of true sight: how could you balance this? Sic'Em for example: if only the ranger get's true sight, it's almost useless for catching stealthed targets. If it applies true sight to nearby allies aswell, it's way too strong, revealing every enemy for every ally is game changing.

>

> The more I think about this, the worse it gets. Why would I run a sneaky build in PvP with your version of stealth? It's only good for landing an opener(try connecting a backstab when the enemy SEES YOU), but not even that if the opponent uses true sight well.

>

> Too much work to implement, and wouldn't achive a better gameplay. Easier fix is, don't roam WvW alone and don't wear your raid-dps armor, so you dont get owned by a 18K backstab out of stealth.

>

> The worst thing is, I don't have anything to add on my own. The entire game without DE is totally fine stealth-wise, but A-net doubled(then tripled) down on DE being a stealth heavy spec with the rework and the adjustments ever since. My only idea is "undo the rework", but we all know that wont happen.

 

i play with alot stealth, i personally dont have issues with stealth and i have said serveral times there is no reason to run solo on anything that is not a thief in WvW if you would play that mode competitive.

but the amount of complains are getting more and as said above they will get even more especially in WvW, when people learn to play their deadeyes. most opponents lack any type of counterplay to that, in case of deadeye its not just stealth but also range wich makes for a deadly combination. i can usually go back into stealth before people can counterpressure me. many just want to be able to fight back, to actually pressure such a thief. 10s is what i thought would make sure the thief is visible for the entire fight after the opener, so stealth can no longer be used as a disengage tool, cause that is what i feel many complainers have an issue with, its rarely the ambush part, its the disengage.

your right 10s is alot and maybe could work with less as it would be constantly reapplied while remaining stealthed.

then just half your team can target you, like with treasure mushroom. if you target that opponent it will be for the part of the team that cant see like the target is out of range.

to see if your stealth is working is just a matter of a visual to the true sight effect.

why is it useless if only the ranger can see that target? if that true sight is gained by sic em that means the target wasnt even attackin anyone till then. so that would be alot better for the ranger than it is now.

your correct, sharing true sight would be as stupid as current reveal because that would be a scaling counter.

 

you are correct backstab is an issue, currently as an opener it can be too strong in some situations as it has no tell. yet the way it is you wouldnt be able to apply it while being seen. i would prefer backstab to have a visual tell even as an opener combined with a little delayed teleport to the back of an opponent. they could then react to the tell and evade it. so its no longer ' just dont run too glassy that you can die to a backstab, backstab is fine your just too glass '. but when i made this suggestion last time deceiver again said that this again would nerf is precious core d/d that already applies enough tells with a CnD that a backstab will come and that the only thing about backstab that makes i too strong is stacked stealth, else the tell 'thief is in stealth' would be enough. but to balance it around that tell you would have to remove stealth as a tool to get an opener. i would prefer to eliminate constantly going into invisibility after the opener instead.

 

without DE the game still wouldnt be fine stealth-wise, because that still leaves SA. before the rework deadeye was harder to play and according to this forum a deadeye before the rework was only able to kill noobs, so i am not sure how going back to before rework will make it fine.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Delete shadow arts - delete shadow meld - only make malice gain on hit and not only iniaitve spent.

 

what do we get instead of shadow arts?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Delete shadow arts - delete shadow meld - only make malice gain on hit and not only iniaitve spent.

>

> what do we get instead of shadow arts?

 

Elite specs should count as 2 lines ;)

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

But no, i wouldn't know where to start as I don't play de enough. Not sure silent scope was really needed, and some of the shadow arts traits like 50% speed and dmg reduction, or what ever it is now could do with a shave. But then again that's core traits and will hurt core builds even more.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> I'm just going to respond again that your view is one which is extremely narrow and lacks scope compared to the original vision of the class, the game's combat systems, and alternative options for the class.

>

> Being willing to completely and totally sideline any off-meta builds/playstyles on the basis that "they're not dominant already so it doesn't matter," is a horrible mentality to have and stifles innovation and adaptation into the future.

>

> I get it. You enjoy your SA Deadeye, and you're happy and fortunate that it's considered a dominant dueling build. That's fine. But it doesn't give you any precedence whatsoever to try and throw everyone else who has different opinions of the game, the class's integrity, and overall perceptions of "fairness" under the bus. You consistently state the problem is one thing, while completely ignoring debates of the past, discussions and perceptions from previous pro-level players, and ignoring the entire premise of the entirety of OH dagger as a weapon.

>

> Most of what you have historically proposed simply just **breaks** D/P or simply nerfs D/D outright into a more worthless state than it already is in, like this suggestion. I'm going to disagree with any suggestion that directly nerfs builds that already have poor performance. I spend a majority of my time in S/D (because D/D is bad for anything beyond the initial engage) and advocated for the FS/LS damage nerfs because they were warranted. This isn't a matter of "my build must benefit." My posts are always catered towards making the best change for the game as a whole, which is why I've historically advocated for nerfs to my own builds when I've deemed them overpowered. I've trained a LOT of players for D/D over my course of playing the thief. All of them no longer play, and they all quit either the profession itself or the game because of the persistent uselessness of the kit. That's just my personal experience, and given how many people downright stopped playing because of this phenomenon on all professions, it's totally unacceptable to uphold the mentality that weak kits should be kept so drastically weak in relation to their stronger counterparts.

>

> D/P isn't played much anymore because it's weak in it of itself; it's just not played because of the current meta and some of its counters just being overtuned. So needless buffs to MH dagger as a whole are not cognizant of the real problems at hand, because general improvements to MH dagger do not improve the weapons in relation to the game or even each other.

>

> My point was to broaden your horizons and then reconsider what your post suggests. Because put bluntly, your suggestion just isn't a good one when taking into account the greater class/game.

>

> Your response doesn't answer my initial concern, anyways: stealth sharing to other classes. Which WILL be overpowered, because there's no penalty imposed on said other classes, which you even directly addressed in your OP. And then if there is a penalty, stealth becomes a near-worthless mechanic to share to anyone, making the suggestion as a whole accomplish very little but mostly just nerfing people out of builds catered to be built with more counterplay.

>

> What this suggestion does is creates counterplay for the "unfair" builds out there while just decimating the rest.

 

the issue with many as you call them 'off-meta builds/playstyles' is that they have very obvious downsides, some more, some less. i can make a ton of builds that wont ever be meta, the question is when it is still 'off-meta' and when it turns into 'just stupid'. catering to builds that are a little off meta can work, but catering to builds that are just stupid, well then you need the game to make any choice and combination viable more or less.

i dont advocate to keep weak kits weak, but i am not trying to make a discussion here about kit choice, but about stealth in general. stealth is an integral part of the thief and changes to it will affect nearly every build, the stronger and the weaker, the meta , the off meta and the stupid. does power d/d need changes to become more viable, yes it does. but thats not the topic of the thread. only because i can make an unviable build using any skill of choice or mechanic, doesnt mean every skill and mechanic in the game cannot be changed.

stealth sharing would be only with SA in wich you would also share several benefit of your improved stealth effect, wich would be as you say very strong but there is still a penalty on the opener so you dont just get team ganks all the time. but thinking of it maybe it should be tied to a major traitchoice, not a minor.

there are aside from an SA thieves not many who use stealth alot, my suggestion therefor mainly caters to that. improving that line as a tradeoff for being more visible to their targets during the fight, and only visible to them. it will in many cases make it easier to pick 1 target out of a group. but this target itself can better fight back.

it affects the most stealth weaving builds wich are mainly rifle and d/d tho in case of d/d more on paper than actually because CnD is unreliable. and it is indeed worse for d/d, than for rifle as while visible it would be harder to apply a backstab yet for DJ nothing really changes. but why not change backstab? think about it for a moment, the way i did suggested backstab that would be a gapcloser to the back of you opponent, you then are in position to extend your stealth and regain a backstab charge with a CnD. i think that aside from the inital engage might even make d/d better than it is now. and keep in mind especially against groups picking your target wisely, only your target will see you.

 

you keep saying that its stacking that is causing the issues, yet with a rifle deadeye for example removing/reducing stacking wont change much aside from making it feel more clunky to use and it would take some time to get used to. it only makes a difference for d/p, yet that is even according to you based on current meta not really good. so what exactly would be your intention in reducing stacking of stealth, how do you picture an ideal fight against a build utilizing stealth in gw2 combat ?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> But no, i wouldn't know where to start as I don't play de enough. Not sure silent scope was really needed, and some of the shadow arts traits like 50% speed and dmg reduction, or what ever it is now could do with a shave. But then again that's core traits and will hurt core builds even more.

 

well my proposed changes are not directly to anything related to an elite spec. just SA and stealth. SA is too weak of a defensive line for most core builds and wasnt really used much till deadeye as one couldnt afford a weak defensive line losing that much damage.. the reason deadeye can utilize this SA line is that he has range and can get back into stealth by the time the opponent closed the gap as well as apply damage easier because of range. yet when you use current SA with a melee build 3 or 4s reveal from leaving stealth can feel like ages. if you still had damage reductions etc from the SA line after your attack in melee that would be maybe worth using.

 

[babazhook.6805]

I have been playing with on My Mark on a warrior for Anti-stealth. It works very well due to it being based on an AMMO system allowing some interplay between thief/warriors as you try and tease out the smelds . The Range is 1200 as well. I think this can be looked at further to help other classes.

 

Traps are another place we can see reveals used. I do not like the idea of reveal on damage but reveal on setting off a trap is ok. When taking a reveal trait it should be compromising a build in other ways and hitting a utility slot would be the way to go. It might be worth considering adding a reveal effect to two of each trap group as in on tripewire and ambush for thief , Vipers nest and Flame trap Ranger, and putting one on Test of faith DH. this would get around the issue of "needing a target" .

 

Frankly outside of Shadow protector needing a tweak and SE swapping places with meld With Shadows, I find the SA line decent overall. As far as thief with the traits there only a handful that need adjusts. Utilities should be a focus as we need more variance there. I have already spoken to stealth stacking. I think it should still be there but just be a bit harder (ie if stealthed additional applications of stealth are 1 second less then would normally be applied as a start thus BP with meld with shadows traited is 4 seconds but if stealthed and you use a BP it 3 added seconds)

[MUDse.7623]

so you are overall mostly fine with current stealth system :3 .

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> I have been playing with on My Mark on a warrior for Anti-stealth. It works very well due to it being based on an AMMO system allowing some interplay between thief/warriors as you try and tease out the smelds . The Range is 1200 as well. I think this can be looked at further to help other classes.

 

i have seen many warriors try to use on my mark on a 2nd or 3rd encounter, some also use the spellbreaker AoE reveal or even both! but that only helps them against a melee thief against range they usually cant even utilize their reveal.

 

the issue i see with most reveals in the game is they still dont make for interactive gameplay. i mean i have to avoid them or the opponents ability to utilize their reveal. so for example when i encounter a holo with lock on i will stay on range and build malice while snipers cover is active so they cant get me right out of stealth again with projectiles and i build malice with immobs so they are not in range for their melee. thats very defensive on my part and i risk them just running away, yet they know they have lock on and stay thinking that gives em an edge. if they dont have lock on and i know that, i can and will fight more aggressive, probably without even kneeling as i dont want them to ignore me and move on, then they have a much higher chance to get a CC and some damage in. i can play around any reveal in the game in a 1 vs 1 scenario. they are only 'efficient' when you outnumber the thief with professions able to burst quick a target that is on range, yet do you need them then ? its just speeding up an already won fight, so if you have alternatives you can pick as utility/tait they are usually better unless you want secondary effects of the skills like the dmg boost on sic em.

but improving too much on them or giving a ton more reveal is also not the way to go IMO as i think it is a terrible counter to stealth as long as it disables more than invisibility.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > I'm just going to respond again that your view is one which is extremely narrow and lacks scope compared to the original vision of the class, the game's combat systems, and alternative options for the class.

> >

> > Being willing to completely and totally sideline any off-meta builds/playstyles on the basis that "they're not dominant already so it doesn't matter," is a horrible mentality to have and stifles innovation and adaptation into the future.

> >

> > I get it. You enjoy your SA Deadeye, and you're happy and fortunate that it's considered a dominant dueling build. That's fine. But it doesn't give you any precedence whatsoever to try and throw everyone else who has different opinions of the game, the class's integrity, and overall perceptions of "fairness" under the bus. You consistently state the problem is one thing, while completely ignoring debates of the past, discussions and perceptions from previous pro-level players, and ignoring the entire premise of the entirety of OH dagger as a weapon.

> >

> > Most of what you have historically proposed simply just **breaks** D/P or simply nerfs D/D outright into a more worthless state than it already is in, like this suggestion. I'm going to disagree with any suggestion that directly nerfs builds that already have poor performance. I spend a majority of my time in S/D (because D/D is bad for anything beyond the initial engage) and advocated for the FS/LS damage nerfs because they were warranted. This isn't a matter of "my build must benefit." My posts are always catered towards making the best change for the game as a whole, which is why I've historically advocated for nerfs to my own builds when I've deemed them overpowered. I've trained a LOT of players for D/D over my course of playing the thief. All of them no longer play, and they all quit either the profession itself or the game because of the persistent uselessness of the kit. That's just my personal experience, and given how many people downright stopped playing because of this phenomenon on all professions, it's totally unacceptable to uphold the mentality that weak kits should be kept so drastically weak in relation to their stronger counterparts.

> >

> > D/P isn't played much anymore because it's weak in it of itself; it's just not played because of the current meta and some of its counters just being overtuned. So needless buffs to MH dagger as a whole are not cognizant of the real problems at hand, because general improvements to MH dagger do not improve the weapons in relation to the game or even each other.

> >

> > My point was to broaden your horizons and then reconsider what your post suggests. Because put bluntly, your suggestion just isn't a good one when taking into account the greater class/game.

> >

> > Your response doesn't answer my initial concern, anyways: stealth sharing to other classes. Which WILL be overpowered, because there's no penalty imposed on said other classes, which you even directly addressed in your OP. And then if there is a penalty, stealth becomes a near-worthless mechanic to share to anyone, making the suggestion as a whole accomplish very little but mostly just nerfing people out of builds catered to be built with more counterplay.

> >

> > What this suggestion does is creates counterplay for the "unfair" builds out there while just decimating the rest.

>

 

> it affects the most stealth weaving builds wich are mainly rifle and d/d tho in case of d/d more on paper than actually because CnD is unreliable. and it is indeed worse for d/d, than for rifle as while visible it would be harder to apply a backstab yet for DJ nothing really changes. but why not change backstab? think about it for a moment, the way i did suggested backstab that would be a gapcloser to the back of you opponent, you then are in position to extend your stealth and regain a backstab charge with a CnD. i think that aside from the inital engage might even make d/d better than it is now. and keep in mind especially against groups picking your target wisely, only your target will see you.

 

Backstab is really strong. You just addressed the fact that CnD is the weak link here. Free repositions won't help the engage because D/D is only good for one thing and one thing only: initial engage damage. There's a reason an overwhelming majority of my gameplay consists of camping S/D; D/D is pretty much awful beyond the 4 -> 5 -> F1 -> -> 1 combo.

An auto-reposition is not warranted on MH dagger and does nothing to fix the problems with D/D. The entire skill is justified in that it can be counterplayed from numerous angles, including repositioning by the enemy. I do not want an easy class. If I wanted that, I'd have mained warrior.

 

> you keep saying that its stacking that is causing the issues, yet with a rifle deadeye for example removing/reducing stacking wont change much aside from making it feel more clunky to use and it would take some time to get used to. it only makes a difference for d/p, yet that is even according to you based on current meta not really good. so what exactly would be your intention in reducing stacking of stealth, how do you picture an ideal fight against a build utilizing stealth in gw2 combat ?

 

The only complaints levied about DE are and have been about permastealth builds. Almost Nobody's complaining about Payback and how the non-stealth variants are unfair to play against.

 

It's simple: Make stealth as an effect not override durations and put in a short self-reveal (like 0.75s) when it expires. Stealth then always lasts 3s or 4s with SA. Then buff SA's sustained-stealth traits because of the lost time efficacy on stacking-based builds or turn them into on-stealth effects/on-reveal effects . Shadow Refuge now no longer needs to reveal upon leaving the circle because it'll force reveal after a few seconds, anyways, which reduces the skill's potency, allowing it to be buffed with cooldown reduction to improve thief's area-control game. D/P can see an init cost reduction on BP to 5 or possibly even 4. Bound Daredevil no longer becomes a problem in the discussion of permastealth. Mesmer engages become normalized to thief's, Scrapper doesn't stop being a complete unknown when sneak gyro is up (how many allies are also stealthed?), and ranger is not stacking stealth repeatedly like it currently is via smokescale + longbow. No new mechanics are really needed, and if weaving stealth is the goal, now all weapon sets are normalized around doing so if they support stealth access.

 

Fighting into a thief then becomes less of a question mark and moves some of the agency - or at least some of the sense of agency - back to its combatant. You get small glimpses of information repeatedly throughout the fight regarding where the thief (or mesmer, or ranger, or anything with stealth) is located. You can anticipate and calculate the punish frames in advance just like how you need to do so when fighting into warriors and mesmers. Stealth then still has plenty of value - it's hiding some animations and still makes the thief obscure enough to be difficult to strictly pin down - but it prevents total information loss scenarios where a thief can just sit back and do nothing for minutes on end and then finally decide to gank while your attention is elsewhere. AKA, the unfun parts.

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > you keep saying that its stacking that is causing the issues, yet with a rifle deadeye for example removing/reducing stacking wont change much aside from making it feel more clunky to use and it would take some time to get used to. it only makes a difference for d/p, yet that is even according to you based on current meta not really good. so what exactly would be your intention in reducing stacking of stealth, how do you picture an ideal fight against a build utilizing stealth in gw2 combat ?

>

> The only complaints levied about DE are and have been about permastealth builds. Almost Nobody's complaining about Payback and how the non-stealth variants are unfair to play against.

>

> It's simple: Make stealth as an effect not override durations and put in a short self-reveal (like 0.75s) when it expires. Stealth then always lasts 3s or 4s with SA. Then buff SA's sustained-stealth traits because of the lost time efficacy on stacking-based builds or turn them into on-stealth effects/on-reveal effects . Shadow Refuge now no longer needs to reveal upon leaving the circle because it'll force reveal after a few seconds, anyways, which reduces the skill's potency, allowing it to be buffed with cooldown reduction to improve thief's area-control game. D/P can see an init cost reduction on BP to 5 or possibly even 4. Bound Daredevil no longer becomes a problem in the discussion of permastealth. Mesmer engages become normalized to thief's, Scrapper doesn't stop being a complete unknown when sneak gyro is up (how many allies are also stealthed?), and ranger is not stacking stealth repeatedly like it currently is via smokescale + longbow. No new mechanics are really needed, and if weaving stealth is the goal, now all weapon sets are normalized around doing so if they support stealth access.

>

> Fighting into a thief then becomes less of a question mark and moves some of the agency - or at least some of the sense of agency - back to its combatant. You get small glimpses of information repeatedly throughout the fight regarding where the thief (or mesmer, or ranger, or anything with stealth) is located. You can anticipate and calculate the punish frames in advance just like how you need to do so when fighting into warriors and mesmers. Stealth then still has plenty of value - it's hiding some animations and still makes the thief obscure enough to be difficult to strictly pin down - but it prevents total information loss scenarios where a thief can just sit back and do nothing for minutes on end and then finally decide to gank while your attention is elsewhere. AKA, the unfun parts.

 

i didnt say weaving is the goal, weaving is actually an issue many people have with rifle deadeye. because gw2 targeting is pretty trash. if i weave stealth with even just NPC targets around it will cost my opponent some time to target me every time i leave stealth. some skills can work around that with action cam, many cant especially when weaving on range as many range attacks are targeted or projectiles with a tiny hitbox.

the issue with Deadeye is neither the stealth alone nor the range alone, its the combination of both. i think taking away that invisbility weaving while giving them more visible sustain is a way to go about this.

if the gank when distracted was the problem, people would still complain about deaths judgement damage more and not as much about their stealth or shadowmeld removing revealed.

to gank you from nowhere while you attention is elsewhere still works with only 3-4s stealth, you dont need much stealth for that. only need to use the envoirement. but limiting stealth to 3-4s with a forced reveal and having no stacking, not even replacing the stack IMO will make it feel clunky and still wont pose much options to counterplay in case of a rifle deadeye. because that 0,75s is the dodgeroll to reenter stealth. and you would again push people to play without stealth as mobility/evades are simply better, unless you buff SA by ALOT. but hey you were not specific on the changes you want for SA.

 

as for warrior easy class..well not really, they need to work hard to apply their damage when they fight better opponts. the change i proposed to backstab wouldnt make it overall easier to use. its easier to get a potential backstab yes, but giving your opponent a better tell to the skill itself and time to react means its also easier avoided wich makes it again harder to apply. take a warrior example again: bullscharge is easy to use as it find its way to the target and has an evade on it, but your opponts mostly will dodge it so is it easy to apply a successfull bullscharge? id say its often alot harder than backstab especially as backstab is often used with a teleport already. so the skill with such a backstab is moved a little from mechanical to tactical skill.

 

 

 

 

 

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> where a thief can just sit back and do nothing for minutes on end and then finally decide to gank while your attention is elsewhere. AKA, the unfun parts.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> D/D is only good for one thing and one thing only: initial engage damage.

 

so d/d is unfun to fight against as it is good for ganking and nothing else?

IMO the design of d/d is to sustain fights with stealth weaving wich would be really strong if CnD stealth part would be harder to avoid and backstab easier to apply. but in their current form you can only use it for an opening burst yet for that d/p in its current form is still superior as that set has stealth build in to ambush a target but too expensive ini wise to weave it.

 

 

btw are you back in the game or still just on forums ?

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > 3) i am not sure how do you picture stealth not dropping target. will it not drop target at all, or will you get the target back when they leave stealth? how do targeted skills work on a stealthed target if you keep them locked while ins stealth and what happens if you gain target back after stealth but you swapped to another target in between?

> >

> > If you have a Thief locked then they went in stealth, you should maintain lock until they get out of range or you switched target. The range would be 600 (2 dodge distance) or whatever number is fair.

> >

> > The Thief would have to back away after stealth if they want to drop target. This will give a short window of opportunity to counterplay.

> >

> > If the Thief stayed in range and the opponent didn't switch target, the Thief will remain as the target as if they are Revealed albeit still invisible.

> >

> > This would basically function like how Rapid Fire stays on target during the channel when the Thief goes in stealth.

>

> ok, but can you still cast targeted skills than on the thief you dont see? like teleports or movement skills or range attacks? or does the game just keep your target locked but without the character knowing where the stealthed opponent is?

> i think if the game just keeps the target with a greyed out healthbar or such till they appear again than the range can be larger, but if you still can use the games 'aimbot' that is part of all targeted skills, then the range has to remain more limited wich still will make for easier target breaks and it would be harder to get a good balance on them for both range and melee weapons the same. because with 600 range i would get an instant targetdrop mostly with rifle for example.

 

I think that would be fine. That extra step will still give a window of opportunity for counterplay.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> without DE the game still wouldnt be fine stealth-wise, because that still leaves SA. before the rework deadeye was harder to play and according to this forum a deadeye

> before the rework was only able to kill noobs, so i am not sure how going back to before rework will make it fine.

 

DE was fine before the rework (apart from the camp in stealth for half a minute cancer), I almost got my top 25 title with it, the mid-season rework kittened me up.

 

This whole proposed rework seems to be based around WvW, because it's really terrible once you start thinking about it in the context of sPvP.

WvW is not the primary balance focus, it never was, because it can't be. The primary balance focuses are sPvP and PvE endgame, those determine the core mechanics of the game. I'm pretty sure we can ignore the effects changing stealth has on PvE, but the conquest gamemode will give you problems:

Stealth and conquest were designed with each other in mind. Holding a node is obviously impossible for any stealth-reliant build(not even bunker druid can hold, it can just contest for a really long time), and disengageing a fight still means losing, because the capture point keeps ticking points for the enemy.

Some changes if True Sight is implemented the way you initially proposed:

- Stealthing before the first encounter is pointless, they just pop some skill that gives true sight, charge you, and keep true sight up by hitting your stealthed team.

- Using stealth to approach anyone who's expecting incoming would be pointless, they would see you. Sneaking up on good players would be impossible.

- You're losing the fight, you need to disengage... stealth sure as hell won't help, you just stacked a boatload of True Sight by hitting the enemy from stealth multiple times. And you gave up half of your mobility to spec into stealth... good luck getting away!

- On the minimap, you can see the icons of whoever your teammates see. You're seen with True Sight, congratulations, everyone knows where you are.

I could go on and on, the point is: noone would bother with stealth if True Sight was a thing.

 

I mean... just think about what you're proposing: seeing someone who's in stealth, from basicly any distance(2K range is like half of an sPvP maps radius). Would you also propose a mechanic that lets you hit through evade frames? No you wouldn't, it would defeat the point of having evades.

Also, hitting from stealth applying True Sight is making stealth into a mechanic that COUNTERS ITSELF BY DEFAULT. You're forced to go for the oneshot kill, because in a battle longer then a second you don't stand a chance. True Sight doesn't fix the "no counterplay to burst from stealth" problem, if anything it would amplify it.

 

WvW balance will never be a thing, unless you delete PvE gear, consumables, sigils and PvE skillbalance from it. Oneshots would be almost impossible if WvW damage was normalised like sPvP damage is, but it's not and it will never be. That gamemode is chaos(isn't that why you like it?), but there is safety in zergs.

 

TL;DR : this rework would delete stealth from PvP, I'm still against this. Trim DE stealth, leave stealth as a mechanic alone.