Maybe it's time to redesign phantasms. Let's brainstorm ideas.

[Curunen.8729]

All I can say is a huge HELL YES to all of your suggestions Agent Noun.

 

I'm sick of these bandaid fixes for phantasms - would so much prefer a gutting and rework of the whole mechanic.

 

In fact there's only two phantasms I actually like - the Warden and the Berserker, former for the projectile destruction/reflect when traited, latter for the cool animation.

 

I wouldn't mind if all the other phantasms were deleted from the game and replaced with clone summoning skills. Edit - although that's my personal bias so to be fair a rework in the line of condensing into a single phantasm slot separate from the illusion counter would be great, or having phantasms be temporary firing off one or two attacks then disappearing.

[zealex.9410]

Id love if phantasms and llusions in general didnt despawn after kill and simply walked next to you and target. But i dought its either possible t make or goes with the design they should have.

[Agent Noun.7350]

I had another idea I want to run by everyone. This one's a lot less drastic, but it goes with some of what was posted above.

 

First: I like the "opening attacks" thing. That's outlined in an above post, but I'll include a revised version here:

 

**Give each phantasm an "opening attack" that is stronger than its normal attack.** It only performs that opening attack once, right when it's summoned, before settling into its normal pattern. Because you summon a new copy of the phantasm when you use a phantasm-summoning skill again, it'd perform that opening attack again, so now you have an incentive to work that into your rotation. Some examples could be:

 

* **Phantasmal Swordsman:** Uses Blurred Frenzy as its first attack. Alternatively, uses an attack similar to Revenant sword's Unrelenting Assault, which would look really awesome but is probably less feasible.

* **Phantasmal Berserker:** First attack immobilizes instead of crippling and deals increased damage.

* **Phantasmal Warden:** First attack also fires seeking axe projectiles similar to Mirage's Mirrored Axes trait.

* **Phantasmal Duelist:** First attack pierces enemies and always inflicts bleeding.

* **Phantasmal Mage:** Breathes a cone of fire as its first attack, inflicting extra burning. This mimics the Elementalist dagger skill Drake's Breath.

* **Phantasmal Warlock:** Fires multiple projectiles with its first attack.

 

Now let's combine that with some trait changes. First, I want to note that **I think these ideas are for PvE only**. Frankly, Mesmer is not in need of a PvP buff, and all of these would constitute a buff. Here are my ideas:

 

* **[illusion] Master of Fragmentation:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms reduces the cooldown of phantasm-summoning skills by X seconds per phantasm._ I'll leave the exact number of seconds up to someone more expert than me. The idea here is that shattering phantasms should make it easier to resummon phantasms afterwards. This shouldn't replace Chronophantasma--it's more like its sustainability-oriented cousin. I suspect it'll work well _with_ Chronophantasma in a shatter-oriented Chronomancer build, though. (This could also go on the minor trait Illusionist's Celerity, but it seems good enough to be part of a Grandmaster trait and compete with Phantasmal Force.)

* **[Domination] Mental Anguish:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms increases this damage bonus by X%._ Again, I'm not going to suggest specific numbers here. Once again, this is intended to make it more attractive to shatter phantasms sometimes, especially when doing so can reduce the cooldown enough that you can immediately replace a couple of them and will make that shatter more attractive.

* **[Mirage] Infinite Horizon:** Add the following feature: _Clones deal increased damage and have increased condition duration with ambush attacks._ Let's make it worth taking this over Dune Cloak in PvE. If you have opportunities to shatter more often, then let's also make it helpful to have clones out to help you with damage. After all, you're paying endurance for those ambush attacks in a lot of cases--they'd better be worth it.

 

Finally, let's say this "opening attack" idea gets implemented. How do you all think it should interact with Chronophantasma? Should phantasms perform their opening attack again when Chronophantasma resummons them? On the one hand, I bet it'd open up the possibility of a shatter-focused Chronomancer DPS build. On the other hand, I could see it kind of getting out of hand depending on how strong the opening is. I'd say hell yes, let's let Chronomancer go absolutely crazy with shatters while Mirage is the clone and phantasm spec, but I do think the balance could get pretty fragile there.

 

Thoughts? I'm always up for more brainstorming.

[bart.3687]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> I had another idea I want to run by everyone. This one's a lot less drastic, but it goes with some of what was posted above.

>

> First: I like the "opening attacks" thing. That's outlined in an above post, but I'll include a revised version here:

>

> **Give each phantasm an "opening attack" that is stronger than its normal attack.** It only performs that opening attack once, right when it's summoned, before settling into its normal pattern. Because you summon a new copy of the phantasm when you use a phantasm-summoning skill again, it'd perform that opening attack again, so now you have an incentive to work that into your rotation. Some examples could be:

>

> * **Phantasmal Swordsman:** Uses Blurred Frenzy as its first attack. Alternatively, uses an attack similar to Revenant sword's Unrelenting Assault, which would look really awesome but is probably less feasible.

> * **Phantasmal Berserker:** First attack immobilizes instead of crippling and deals increased damage.

> * **Phantasmal Warden:** First attack also fires seeking axe projectiles similar to Mirage's Mirrored Axes trait.

> * **Phantasmal Duelist:** First attack pierces enemies and always inflicts bleeding.

> * **Phantasmal Mage:** Breathes a cone of fire as its first attack, inflicting extra burning. This mimics the Elementalist dagger skill Drake's Breath.

> * **Phantasmal Warlock:** Fires multiple projectiles with its first attack.

>

> Now let's combine that with some trait changes. First, I want to note that **I think these ideas are for PvE only**. Frankly, Mesmer is not in need of a PvP buff, and all of these would constitute a buff. Here are my ideas:

>

> * **[illusion] Master of Fragmentation:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms reduces the cooldown of phantasm-summoning skills by X seconds per phantasm._ I'll leave the exact number of seconds up to someone more expert than me. The idea here is that shattering phantasms should make it easier to resummon phantasms afterwards. This shouldn't replace Chronophantasma--it's more like its sustainability-oriented cousin. I suspect it'll work well _with_ Chronophantasma in a shatter-oriented Chronomancer build, though. (This could also go on the minor trait Illusionist's Celerity, but it seems good enough to be part of a Grandmaster trait and compete with Phantasmal Force.)

> * **[Domination] Mental Anguish:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms increases this damage bonus by X%._ Again, I'm not going to suggest specific numbers here. Once again, this is intended to make it more attractive to shatter phantasms sometimes, especially when doing so can reduce the cooldown enough that you can immediately replace a couple of them and will make that shatter more attractive.

> * **[Mirage] Infinite Horizon:** Add the following feature: _Clones deal increased damage and have increased condition duration with ambush attacks._ Let's make it worth taking this over Dune Cloak in PvE. If you have opportunities to shatter more often, then let's also make it helpful to have clones out to help you with damage. After all, you're paying endurance for those ambush attacks in a lot of cases--they'd better be worth it.

>

> Finally, let's say this "opening attack" idea gets implemented. How do you all think it should interact with Chronophantasma? Should phantasms perform their opening attack again when Chronophantasma resummons them? On the one hand, I bet it'd open up the possibility of a shatter-focused Chronomancer DPS build. On the other hand, I could see it kind of getting out of hand depending on how strong the opening is. I'd say hell yes, let's let Chronomancer go absolutely crazy with shatters while Mirage is the clone and phantasm spec, but I do think the balance could get pretty fragile there.

>

> Thoughts? I'm always up for more brainstorming.

 

Your idea for Master of Fragmentation is basically old Persistence of Memory. They nerfed this trait into oblivion with August patch, so I doubt they will bring it back, sadly.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Persistence_of_Memory

[Miocast.2657]

Well, so far i want only few changes for phantasms - more damage, condition, buffs and uniqness for sattering a phantasm, and unique ambushes for them.

 

For example if shattering a phantasm with Distortion shatter will grant 1.5 seconds distortion for each phantasm shattered. Bountiful Dissillusionment will grant +33% boon duration gained from shatters for each phantasm shattered. Ineptitude with 3 phantasms shattered will grant 10 seconds of confusion and etc.

 

Mesmer could get additional buffs for phantasms that they shatter, disenchanter can grant you resistance, defender - aegis and stability and so on.

 

And last - i really don't get it why phantasms with all their specific role dont have a their own special ambushes. Pistol phantasm can, for example fire a single powerfull bullet that deal damage in proportion to enemy current health and so on.

 

In conclusion im gonna state that Phantasms provide a lot of damage on target itself, but because of shatter mechanic they yield less effect|cooldown profit in comparsion to illusion in my opinion.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Make them unshatterable and do not account for illusion count. Only 2 phantasms can be active. They could increase shatter area via trait. Phantasms retarget to the enemy you are attacking and remaon as long as you are in combat.

[LiesAndErr.2085]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> Lingering but ultimately temporary phantasms would also work, so long as the rest of the Mesmer's attacks are a little stronger to help compensate for not always having a phantasm around.

 

This got me thinking, but would a global cd need to be placed to prevent a sort of "phantasm spasm attack", where the player spawns one to do its thing, and then right before it ends, replace that one with a different phantasm? (e.g. Duelist to Zerker, or something) I guess this depends on numbers but the burst might end up being pretty high.

[apharma.3741]

I forgot to put what I would change.

 

I would remove phantasms from the game and instead you do an attack, leave a clone at the location and have the ability to swap with it for upto 5s. Then rebalance the auto damage and attacks damage. It would solve the current issue with mirage not working with phantasms as well as making mesmer more about confusing enemies with constant swapping and changing location.

 

The major issue I can see is iReversion but there’s a lot of creative things you could do like have clones resummon if killed within 5s of being summoned or something like that. No alacrity from shield phantasms can either be made up for with buffing the trait from Wells to 5s, maybe even make improved alacrity increase alacrity durations by 50% and affect allies too.

 

There’s a lot of skills and traits that would need minor changes but most will transfer over reasonably well.

[Coulter.2315]

I like the physical hex concept but it needs to be separated from shatters and clones. Summoning a phantasm should apply a debilitating effect on its target until it is killed, I don't like them being damage dealers.

 

They should sit on the battlefield and a debuff appears on their target which every few secs procs a 1/4sec daze or a chill or a blind, something disabling and thematic, to dispel this hex you must kill the phant. To compensate the removal of damage have mesmer skills and shatters deal increased damage per phantasm currently afflicting the target. You could even have debuffs which can be used as team buffs, anyone striking hexed target gains a stack of might or steals health or gains prot.

 

This is obviously if I were designing from scratch, best we're likely to get is taking them out of the shatter pool and made into a damage skill.

[Refia Montes.3205]

This will never happen... else if it will, most likely it will be a new Elite Spec.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> This will never happen... else if it will, most likely it will be a new Elite Spec.

 

Yeah, that's why I wanted to start including some more realistic ideas that don't drastically change what a phantasm is.

 

That said, a no-phantasm elite spec would be really cool. If Rangers got a "let me ditch my pet" elite spec, why not give Mesmers a "let me do well without phantasms" one? Maybe an elite spec that leans into the "duelist" side of Mesmer with more focus on weapons and using illusions as distractions instead of damage sources.

[Refia Montes.3205]

I've been trying to make a fan-elite with the use of a stronger illusion that deals the same damage as you and performs the same mmoves as you, but delayed by a second. (Think of Pontiff Sullyvahn from DS3 and naming it possibly Doppelganger) Though I can't wrap my head how to rework Clone and Phantasm skills for it.

[Agent Noun.7350]

My own little fan-elite idea is something like this:

 

* Emphasizes the "duelist" side of Mesmer. Your illusions are there for distractions and evasiveness, but they're not the core of what you do. Let that be Mirage's job.

* New weapon is off-hand dagger. Seems underwhelming, but I wanted it to be an off-hand because that's the kind of weapon that normally has phantasm skills. If possible, it'd be cool if this spec wielded the off-hand dagger with the blade facing up like a parrying blade instead of the current under-handed grip that every other profession uses with daggers. And the bigger change is:

* Phantasm skills no longer summon phantasms. Instead, they make the Mesmer perform an attack with a similar "theme" to what the phantasm would do, then summon a regular clone. Not sure what to do with utility skill phantasms with this--it'd be unprecedented for an elite spec to change already-existing utility skills, but it'd be weird if the "no phantasms" spec could still summon a couple, so I don't know.

* Shatters work as normal, but they also give the Mesmer a buff that adds an "echo" of that shatter to their next few weapon strikes. The idea is that you use your shatter as normal, then your next few attacks do a miniature version of that shatter. For example, Mind Wrack causes your next few weapon attacks to cause additional AoE damage around the target. Cry of Frustration adds confusion to your next few weapon attacks. Distraction makes your next few strikes chill targets. Distortion causes you to pulse protection to nearby allies with your next few strikes.

* This elite spec's first minor trait should probably include a baseline buff to the damage your weapon attacks deal to make up for the damage phantasms would do. (Although honestly I think Mesmer should just get that anyway, even if phantasms never change--we're behind on DPS anyway, so an across-the-board weapon skill damage buff in PvE would be very nice.)

* Not sure what the utility skills would be. Maybe cantrips or stances? Cantrips would be like "magical duelist" in theme, while stances would have more of an agile weapon-master theme, so I think I favor cantrips.

 

I haven't made a "check out my fan elite idea" post because it's really not even close to fully-formed yet and I don't even have a name for it. Plus I also hope the next expansion is in Cantha and I'd want to find a way to tie it in there, so that's an extra challenge. But while I'm throwing around fan ideas I might as well go all-out, right?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > This will never happen... else if it will, most likely it will be a new Elite Spec.

>

> Yeah, that's why I wanted to start including some more realistic ideas that don't drastically change what a phantasm is.

>

> That said, a no-phantasm elite spec would be really cool. If Rangers got a "let me ditch my pet" elite spec, why not give Mesmers a "let me do well without phantasms" one? Maybe an elite spec that leans into the "duelist" side of Mesmer with more focus on weapons and using illusions as distractions instead of damage sources.

 

There’s a fundamental difference between ranger and mesmer, a rangers pet doesn’t go poof in a cloud of butterflies when the enemy disappears and can retarget at will. They’re also significantly more durable when used right and while do suffer from large scale fights you can put them on passive and use them to deal with melee players only like wolf fear or to stealth off the smokescale etc.

 

You can’t come up with a simple one change solution to a problem that is so deeply mechanically entrenched with a class especially after the messing around they did with phantasmal force and a few other changes that didn’t address the issue of phantasms. Putting a “solution” as an elite spec doesn’t actually fix the issue either, see Chrono and Mirage and how both sort of work but have areas where you’re left scratching your head going waaahh??? It also only creates more problems as you go down the line with more elite specs as mechanics start becoming more and more inconsistent where something is overpowered on one area but other areas are generally poor.

[bart.3687]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > This will never happen... else if it will, most likely it will be a new Elite Spec.

> >

> > Yeah, that's why I wanted to start including some more realistic ideas that don't drastically change what a phantasm is.

> >

> > That said, a no-phantasm elite spec would be really cool. If Rangers got a "let me ditch my pet" elite spec, why not give Mesmers a "let me do well without phantasms" one? Maybe an elite spec that leans into the "duelist" side of Mesmer with more focus on weapons and using illusions as distractions instead of damage sources.

>

> There’s a fundamental difference between ranger and mesmer, a rangers pet doesn’t go poof in a cloud of butterflies when the enemy disappears and can retarget at will. They’re also significantly more durable when used right and while do suffer from large scale fights you can put them on passive and use them to deal with melee players only like wolf fear or to stealth off the smokescale etc.

>

> You can’t come up with a simple one change solution to a problem that is so deeply mechanically entrenched with a class especially after the messing around they did with phantasmal force and a few other changes that didn’t address the issue of phantasms. Putting a “solution” as an elite spec doesn’t actually fix the issue either, see Chrono and Mirage and how both sort of work but have areas where you’re left scratching your head going waaahh??? It also only creates more problems as you go down the line with more elite specs as mechanics start becoming more and more inconsistent where something is overpowered on one area but other areas are generally poor.

 

This. Mesmer does need its mechanic redesign, but it has to be done to the class as a whole, not put on a elite spec.

I do NOT want anymore bandaid fixes (e.g., Chronophantasma). The phantasm/shatter interaction has proven to be a bad design over past 5 years. One mechanic disables the other.

Current Phantasms mechanics need to be threw out of the window and completely reworked.

Please, Anet, the time has come, listen to your community and do something about it already.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> There’s a fundamental difference between ranger and mesmer, a rangers pet doesn’t go poof in a cloud of butterflies when the enemy disappears and can retarget at will. They’re also significantly more durable when used right and while do suffer from large scale fights you can put them on passive and use them to deal with melee players only like wolf fear or to stealth off the smokescale etc.

>

> You can’t come up with a simple one change solution to a problem that is so deeply mechanically entrenched with a class especially after the messing around they did with phantasmal force and a few other changes that didn’t address the issue of phantasms. Putting a “solution” as an elite spec doesn’t actually fix the issue either, see Chrono and Mirage and how both sort of work but have areas where you’re left scratching your head going waaahh??? It also only creates more problems as you go down the line with more elite specs as mechanics start becoming more and more inconsistent where something is overpowered on one area but other areas are generally poor.

 

> @bart.3687 said:

> This. Mesmer does need its mechanic redesign, but it has to be done to the class as a whole, not put on a elite spec.

> I do NOT want anymore bandaid fixes (e.g., Chronophantasma). The phantasm/shatter interaction has proven to be a bad design over past 5 years. One mechanic disables the other.

> Current Phantasms mechanics need to be threw out of the window and completely reworked.

> Please, Anet, the time has come, listen to your community and do something about it already.

 

I definitely agree with both of you, which is why the ideas I put in the OP are pretty big phantasm redesigns (one more drastic than the other). But, well, it's been five years and some variation of this problem with phantasms has been coming up regularly that entire time. I'm not sure ArenaNet agrees that phantasms are themselves a design issue that needs to be solved, but I definitely think they are. And I agree that just putting a band-aid over them with an elite spec wouldn't be a truly satisfying solution.

 

One reason I'm even a little bit open to an elite spec idea is that I tried these ideas out over on Reddit and got a _lot_ more push-back than I did here. There are probably more Mesmer players than I expected who like phantasms just how they are, or want Mesmer to be _more_ reliant on phantasms--it's just they all post on Reddit instead of the official forums. And I can't expect ArenaNet to completely remake a mechanic that it turns out a lot of players like. (Probably also worth noting that I think a lot of the players who reacted, uh, negatively to my suggestion seemed to think that a real choice exists between "phantasm build" and "shatter build" in group PvE and that I was trying to take away their preferred choice, so I'm not sure how much stock I put in their take.)

 

My preferred solution at this point is the "option 1" in the OP, which tries to buff shatter builds while also adding more dynamic play to phantasms with special on-summon attacks. That keeps phantasms around for players who like them, while attempting to add an _actual_ choice to run a sustained DPS shatter build. I'll quote it here for easier discussion:

 

>**Give each phantasm an "opening attack" that is stronger than its normal attack.** It only performs that opening attack once, right when it's summoned, before settling into its normal pattern. Because you summon a new copy of the phantasm when you use a phantasm-summoning skill again, it'd perform that opening attack again, so now you have an incentive to work that into your rotation. Some examples could be:

 

>* **Phantasmal Swordsman:** Uses Blurred Frenzy as its first attack. Alternatively, uses an attack similar to Revenant sword's Unrelenting Assault, which would look really awesome but is probably less feasible.

>* **Phantasmal Berserker:** First attack immobilizes instead of crippling and deals increased damage.

>* **Phantasmal Warden:** First attack also fires seeking axe projectiles similar to Mirage's Mirrored Axes trait.

>* **Phantasmal Duelist:** First attack pierces enemies and always inflicts bleeding.

>* **Phantasmal Mage:** Breathes a cone of fire as its first attack, inflicting extra burning. This mimics the Elementalist dagger skill Drake's Breath.

>* **Phantasmal Warlock:** Fires multiple projectiles with its first attack.

 

>Now let's combine that with some trait changes. First, I want to note that **I think these ideas are for PvE only**. Frankly, Mesmer is not in need of a PvP buff, and all of these would constitute a buff. Here are my ideas:

 

>* **[illusion] Master of Fragmentation:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms reduces the cooldown of phantasm-summoning skills by X seconds per phantasm._ I'll leave the exact number of seconds up to someone more expert than me. The idea here is that shattering phantasms should make it easier to resummon phantasms afterwards. This shouldn't replace Chronophantasma--it's more like its sustainability-oriented cousin. I suspect it'll work well _with_ Chronophantasma in a shatter-oriented Chronomancer build, though. (This could also go on the minor trait Illusionist's Celerity, but it seems good enough to be part of a Grandmaster trait and compete with Phantasmal Force.)

>* **[Domination] Mental Anguish:** Add the following feature: _Shattering phantasms increases this damage bonus by X%._ Again, I'm not going to suggest specific numbers here. Once again, this is intended to make it more attractive to shatter phantasms sometimes, especially when doing so can reduce the cooldown enough that you can immediately replace a couple of them and will make that shatter more attractive.

>* **[Mirage] Infinite Horizon:** Add the following feature: _Clones deal increased damage and have increased condition duration with ambush attacks._ Let's make it worth taking this over Dune Cloak in PvE. If you have opportunities to shatter more often, then let's also make it helpful to have clones out to help you with damage. After all, you're paying endurance for those ambush attacks in a lot of cases--they'd better be worth it.

 

>Finally, let's say this "opening attack" idea gets implemented. How do you all think it should interact with Chronophantasma? Should phantasms perform their opening attack again when Chronophantasma resummons them? On the one hand, I bet it'd open up the possibility of a shatter-focused Chronomancer DPS build. On the other hand, I could see it kind of getting out of hand depending on how strong the opening is. I'd say hell yes, let's let Chronomancer go absolutely crazy with shatters while Mirage is the clone and phantasm spec, but I do think the balance could get pretty fragile there.

[UnbentMars.9126]

I think the best option would be to give Phantasms a finite duration, but not be linked to a specific target (kind of like bone minions the Necro summons). Either their health decays over time, or they simply have a limited lifespan.

 

This incentivizes shattering before they die, as if you let them run out you miss out.

Some ways this works with specializations;

Chronomancer refills duration upon shattering with an internal cooldown (could potentially have them up forever)

Mirage gains duration upon using axe 3, but a short amount of duration so it only prolongs their lifespan rather than being able to extend it indefinitely.

[Agent Noun.7350]

Giving phantasms a finite duration so they're something you have to upkeep could be interesting (so long as it comes with buffs to shatters and Mesmer weapon damage, naturally, since we'd be getting less damage from phantasms most of the time).

 

Your Mirage idea there actually sounds pretty fun. Actually even if you could use that skill to keep your phantasms up indefinitely, at least it adds some sort of active element to phantasms. Chronomancer keeps phantasms up by shattering and Mirage does so with weapon skills, that kind of thing.

[Artyport.2084]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > This will never happen... else if it will, most likely it will be a new Elite Spec.

>

> Yeah, that's why I wanted to start including some more realistic ideas that don't drastically change what a phantasm is.

>

> That said, a no-phantasm elite spec would be really cool. If Rangers got a "let me ditch my pet" elite spec, why not give Mesmers a "let me do well without phantasms" one? Maybe an elite spec that leans into the "duelist" side of Mesmer with more focus on weapons and using illusions as distractions instead of damage sources.

 

this should atleast be the mirage as it has literally no benefit from the phantasms.

[Jokubas.4265]

I've had a conflicted history with Phantasms and Shatters. When I first started playing this game at the beginning, I gravitated toward using Phantasms, and was absolutely paranoid of Shatters. Part of that was because Shatters destroyed Phantasms, but it was mostly because the Shatters all had different uses and heavy enough cooldowns that I was afraid to experiment with them and find the best time to use them. In the end, however, the build I was using then had _no_ AoE and didn't even do enough single-target damage to justify that, so I came to the forums for help. After getting some advice from the forums, I ended up switching to a build where I essentially _spam_ Shatters, and I'm doing that even more now that I unlocked Chronomancer.

 

I enjoy my current build well enough and I've pulled off amazing things with it, but something's always bugged me about it. Forgive me if this seems a bit off topic, but it will make sense in the end.

 

What _are_ Shatters?

 

Normally, when someone talks about shattering an illusion, it means they saw through it and it no longer has power over them. In GW2, it instead seems to mean that the glass shattering effect on the illusions is almost literal, like the class is conjuring glass elementals instead of illusions. That's kind of semantic, but I think it ties back to a thematic problem that got broken early on.

> @SlimChance.6593 said:

> If you want to convince Robert Gee to make changes to phantasms? I would make sure that your suggestions are in align with the original design concept.

>

> Phantasms are not pets. They are not summons. Phantasms are physical hexes!

I assume this is the reason illusions are tied to targets. They're theoretically supposed to be illusions that you have conjured in that person's mind. Of course, that's a difficult mechanic to implement if you try to make it more literal, especially if you want it to be competitive in an environment where AI might ignore it or players might communicate around it. So instead, we got a compromise. Having everyone see the illusions but they're tied to a target isn't a terrible compromise, but I think it led to other compromises. The Shatter skills are references to the things that Mesmers directly did to their enemy's mind in GW1. To give them a visible element, they were tied to the illusions, but it makes a lot of things awkward.

 

I don't follow a lot so I don't know if it's true, but I heard it said that Arena.net wanted Mesmers to use their Shatter skills more. As I said earlier, I use mine _all the time_, but it still just doesn't feel right for Mesmer. I've seen both extremes: all Phantasms and all Shattering. I'm assuming that, _optimally_, I'm supposed to find a balance where I know exactly when to have a Phantasm up and when to Shatter, and I skillfully switch back and forth based on the situation. I'll admit I'm not really up for that level of play, but I really just don't think it's thematically appropriate.

 

There was a thread a little while ago about the Mirage's Utility skills should have replaced the base F skills for that specialization, but now that I think about it, I feel like the baseline Mesmer should have those sort of F skills to begin with. If our overarching mechanic is going to be about having visible illusions out, the F skills shouldn't detonate them, but _utilize_ them.

 

Imagine if Distortion, instead of detonating all illusions and giving you distortion, shuffled your position among the illusions while giving you distortion. Imagine if one of the other F skills allowed you to retarget your illusions. This would retain the idea that Illusions are not pets (since you don't control them directly and they largely act on their own) while playing up the idea that the Mesmer is deceiving their foes through illusions (since they stay around to confuse the reality of the situation rather than just blowing up).

 

Of course, this would be a pretty big overhaul, and Phantasms and Clones might need something new to distinguish them altogether, but I think it would create a much better foundation to build interesting Phantasms on.

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> I definitely agree Phantasms need a full overhaul, but I'd do this:

>

> * You can only have 1 Phantasm at a time.

> * This single Phantasm occupies a special, fourth, illusion slot.

> * All Phantasms buffed accordingly, usually not via making their individual attacks stronger (this'd result in needlessly high burst) but in removing much of the inter-attack delay result in continuous attacks blasted at their target.

> * Phantasms ignores Shatter effects.

> * Phantasms are immune to PBAE and GTAE effects but die extremely quickly (2k-4k health) to cleaves or single-target attacks, however cleaves **do** need the Phantasm targetted to hit it.

> * When hitting a targetted enemy with your AA attacks, your Phantasm will switch to that target if it had been attacking something else.

When it comes to a much simpler solution, this is a _great_ idea. The only nitpick I have is that if this happened, Clone would be a much better name for the Phantasms, since they'd be a special illusion that is more like you than the rest of them. That's not a surprise though, since the terminology is already close enough that I constantly forget which one is which. :P

[Warlyx.6732]

i just want a way to avoid clones taking the space of phantasm or instead of adding a clone just heal the phantasm

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Jokubas.4265 said:

> What _are_ Shatters?

 

The best I can think of is that the Mesmer's illusions are so powerful that dispelling them suddenly like that is actually painful for whoever's afflicted by the illusions. Mind Wrack represents mental pain and Cry of Frustration the confusion of having been tricked. Diversion has the target reeling from the deception.

 

Distortion and Continuum Split are a little different. Maybe the Mesmer is pulling the magic out of their illusions and using it to do something else, in those cases.

 

That said, phantasms are clearly something physical, so maybe shatters are, too, or at least Mind Wrack. I've always sort of figured phantasms were related to Mesmer's ability to twist space--they're not just illusions, but warp space around them so that they can actually cause physical harm. Or, like I posted on the previous page with my little narrative about fighting a Mesmer, maybe they really are made of glass and magic, not illusions at all but half-ethereal, half-real constructs.

 

Mirage, at least, definitely plays up the glass imagery with Mesmer, so that could be the intention.

[Sodeni.6041]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

 

> ## Secondary Suggestion: And Now for Something Completely Different

>

> What if we revisited what a phantasm even is? Here's my suggestion:

>

> **Treat phantasms like normal attacks.** In this scenario, phantasms aren't summons anymore. They aren't illusions. They're just an attack with an animation that looks like a pink, illusionary version of the caster doing something. They appear, perform an attack or other action, and immediately disappear. Their effects and cooldowns are adjusted to account for the fact that they're not persistent--in other words, **they could be balanced like any other skill**. I want to be very, very clear here, since I think people might misunderstand me: **along with these changes, phantasm-summoning skills' effects, damage, and cooldowns would need to change significantly**. I'm not suggesting that phantasms should stay exactly how they are and just not last a long time--that'd be an unambiguous step down and a big nerf at that. I'm suggesting a from-the-ground-up rework that would also include big adjustments to skill cooldowns and phantasm effects.

>

> In this case, too, phantasms don't have to be objects in the game world. They don't need pathing or hit boxes. They're just attack animations that happen to look like the Mesmer.

>

> Below, I have some possible examples. In coming up with these, I tried to stick to the following principles:

>

> 1. Phantasms stay visible for at least a couple of seconds. This helps maintain the feeling of a phantasm being a tangible illusion that performs an action, rather than, say, a projectile that just happens to be shaped like the caster.

> 2. Phantasm attacks should happen over a period of time. This goes with the above--if it's going to stay visible for a couple seconds, it might as well be doing something. But it's also a possible balance consideration. I've posted elsewhere about this, but the best sources of physical damage for sustained DPS tend to be attacks that mimic condition damage by continuing to deal damage after you cast them. Examples include the Elementalist's Lava Font and Meteor Shower, or Dragonhunter's Procession of Blades trap. Because my goal here is to help Mesmer have better sustained DPS, I think it's a good idea for phantasms to generally work like those sorts of attacks.

> 3. Phantasms should be recognizable from their current versions. Some of them are going to be bigger changes than others to help stick to the above principles, but in general I want to keep their basic functions the same.

>

> Given that, here are my example ideas:

>

> * **Phantasmal Swordsman:** Casts a version of Blurred Frenzy before disappearing. Functionally, I think this would be really similar to skills like the Elementalist's Lava Font: a stationary source of cleave damage that pulses for a few seconds before going away.

> * **Phantasmal Berserker:** Performs its whirling attack twice in quick succession--a quick back-and-forth--then disappears. A useful AoE ranged attack.

> * **Phantasmal Duelist:** Uses Unload once or twice, whatever works for the balance and timing.

> * **Phantasmal Mage:** Appears in a burst of fire like when the Mesmer uses The Prestige, then shoots a cone of flame, applying burning.

> * **Phantasmal Warden:** Ground-targeted spinning attack that reflects projectiles for a few seconds. Another stationary, pulsing cleave, this time with projectile reflection like the Ranger skill it mimics. Ground targeting helps preserve its usefulness given that it now has a short duration.

> * **Phantasmal Warlock:** Fires multiple bouncing projectiles that deal extra damage for each unique condition the target has.

> * **Phantasmal Avenger:** As it is now, this phantasm exists to apply alacrity. That makes it more difficult to redesign in this model than the other weapon phantasms, which only really need to deal damage. I think the best option here might be for it to work like Renegade's spirit summons: a phantasm that causes a large AoE summoned by the shield block, with a longer duration than the other phantasms. It can deal some damage and apply slow to enemies in its radius and periodically apply alacrity before disappearing. **This is also the pattern I think utility skill phantasms should follow, though those can be ground-targeted.**

>

> Here are the benefits I see to this approach:

>

> * **It would allow phantasms to be balanced like any other attack skill,** without needing to consider both their persistence and their potential fragility.

> * **No more choosing between phantasms and shatters.** If phantasms no longer count as illusions, you can now safely generate and shatter illusions to your heart's content.

> * **It allows for more reliable Mesmer DPS.** Again, because these phantasms no longer last an indefinite amount of time and can no longer be killed, you don't have to worry about being unable to retarget them, or DPS loss when a target moves out of their range, or needing to resummon them when they're killed by AoEs. You can just work them into your rotation as a normal attack.

>

> Here are the downsides, because I acknowledge there definitely are some:

>

> * **This removes some of Mesmer's uniqueness.** Like them or hate them, phantasms are a very unique mechanic. Treating them like any other attack, just with a phantasmal attack animation, would remove a lot of that uniqueness. I obviously think it's worth it, or I wouldn't be suggesting this, but I know some might find this to be unacceptable.

> * **This would entail a massive amount of work.** Should anything like this ever happen--and, let's be realistic, such a huge redesign is unlikely no matter how many words I post about it--it wouldn't be soon. It might even come with an expansion, rather than a patch.

>

> What do you all think? Would this be a helpful rework? Does this approach sound fun to you? Is there another approach you think might work better?

 

I really like your second concept! Phantasms should be a normal, stronger attack and not take up an illusion spot. Balancing would be much easier if this was thr case and gave mesmer more power. After the phantasm performed its attack they should leave a clone behind.

[Bod.8261]

> @Jokubas.4265 said:

> What _are_ Shatters?

> (...)

 

If we really go back to GW1 and think how they "converted" the class to GW2, then Phantasms are Hexes.

The skill [shatter Delusions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shatter_Delusions "Shatter Delusions") became the Shatter mechanic.

The reason why this works in GW1 is simple: Hexes have a finite duration, (also there's a bunch of hexes that even benefit from being removed early).

 

Also phantasms may act like hexes, but they are the most boring kind of Hex: Simple damage over time.

While GW1-Mesmer has access to a wide range of dot-like effects, this was more of a necromancer speciality.

What made Mesmer stand out were effects that punished foes for using certain types of skills, for standing close together or doing nothing. Effects that drained enemy ressources or ones with very strong effects that also gave the enemy a benefit.

 

Sadly over GW2s lifespan this has even gotten worse. iMage was a decent hex, it punished foes for attacking by applying confusion and retaliation. Now it does pure damage and an offensive Boon.

The confusion centered trait Mistrust trait was removed and instead we got Phantasmal Force, which along with a number of other traits enforces the "minion" side of phantasms. The hex side is barely alive at this point.

 

So I say: Let phantasms be hexes again! In order to do so:

- Phantasms have a finite duration

- Phantasms have more varied effects like punishing enemies for attacking, using non-attack skills, moving or even a two-sided effect

- You can only have one phantasm per skill per enemy active

- More traits like Illusionary Inspiration that actually change the way phantasms are used, less linear buffs

[Zenith.7301]

> @Bod.8261 said:

> > @Jokubas.4265 said:

> > What _are_ Shatters?

> > (...)

>

> If we really go back to GW1 and think how they "converted" the class to GW2, then Phantasms are Hexes.

> The skill [shatter Delusions](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shatter_Delusions "Shatter Delusions") became the Shatter mechanic.

> The reason why this works in GW1 is simple: Hexes have a finite duration, (also there's a bunch of hexes that even benefit from being removed early).

>

> Also phantasms may act like hexes, but they are the most boring kind of Hex: Simple damage over time.

> While GW1-Mesmer has access to a wide range of dot-like effects, this was more of a necromancer speciality.

> What made Mesmer stand out were effects that punished foes for using certain types of skills, for standing close together or doing nothing. Effects that drained enemy ressources or ones with very strong effects that also gave the enemy a benefit.

>

> Sadly over GW2s lifespan this has even gotten worse. iMage was a decent hex, it punished foes for attacking by applying confusion and retaliation. Now it does pure damage and an offensive Boon.

> The confusion centered trait Mistrust trait was removed and instead we got Phantasmal Force, which along with a number of other traits enforces the "minion" side of phantasms. The hex side is barely alive at this point.

>

> So I say: Let phantasms be hexes again! In order to do so:

> - Phantasms have a finite duration

> - Phantasms have more varied effects like punishing enemies for attacking, using non-attack skills, moving or even a two-sided effect

> - You can only have one phantasm per skill per enemy active

> - More traits like Illusionary Inspiration that actually change the way phantasms are used, less linear buffs

 

Phantasmal mage was garbage then in PvE and it's still garbage now.

 

Your GW1 nostalgia misses the fact that GW2 has a combat design in which the GW1 mesmer design cannot exist.

 

For one, there are no enemy resources to drain.

 

Second, interrupts were made obsolete the moment defiance bars were put into the game. Power Block as a grandmaster in domination was seeing use in dungeons when well timed to shut down mobs and bosses, and with defiance bars that was destroyed.

 

In GW1 PvE, interrupting deadly mob attacks and debuffs was a real thing. You could silence and make groups of deadly mobs explode with a well placed hex. Much of the Domain of Anguish and high end PvE was designed as such that deadly mob pack were part of defeating the dungeon, you had to deal with waves and get through deadly groups in the Foundry of Failed Creations.

 

All of that is gone in GW2. You find a single boss immune to any manner of shutdown, you can't silence or drain resources or debuff important bsses or mobs because hexes and conditions were consolidated to be universal across classes, so in the realm of CC mesmer isn't even close to the best CC class anymore, and that CC has been rendered completely niche.

 

Retaliation is more than worthless in PvE considering the damage it does relative to mob attack frequency, and guardian provides better uptime of retaliation than mesmer ever will.

 

Same goes for confusion. Engineers are better at confusion spikes than mesmers are, and access to confusion for the mesmer is limited. Confusion is also kept limited and weak in PvE thanks to them not wanting to split balance between PvE and WvW where condition mesmers can be a problem.

 

GW2 combat is severely dumbed down and lacks the strategic depth of GW1. All you care about is raw damage because most damage in this game is easily avoided or healed through via proactive defenses that are easily available to a group.

 

In GW1, if you failed interrupts, you could be wiped in a spike immediately. Debuffs from mobs would ruin your day, and you wanted to debuff them to reduce their high native damage.

 

What debuffs are there in this game? Boons are supremely better than defensive conditions in this game. Weakness is pathetic at reducing mob damage since it's an RNG defense. Blind is much more widely available to an assassin class than a mesmer. Poison is more available to necromancer and ranger than mesmer, so if mobs healed mesmer wouldn't be any better at shutting that down.

 

The consolidation of unique class effects and spells into boons and conditions spelled the death of the GW1 mesmer's role.

 

In fact, you can look at spellbreaker daggers and counter as the closest you get to the old mesmer, and spellbreaker is completely awful in PvE because of it. Shutdown and debuffing enemies is simply no longer an integral mechanism of GW2 PvE.

 

And even if it were, mesmer would not be the best at it.