Remove LF From Nearby Deaths

[Rhyse.8179]

Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

 

To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

 

The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

 

Obviously there are many situations, and not all of them are bad for the necro, I just picked that one as one example of where the mechanic fails.

 

So fix it. Make LF gained ONLY through active, intentional skill use. LF generating skills and traits will obviously need rebalanced - but this is the gateway change to fixing Necro as a whole (without removing Shroud, that is). It's literally the only way to make Shroud balance-able.

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I would settle with this if necro got a 5 sec cd on shroud :0

[Dadnir.5038]

Except necromancer's population in WvW, I doubt this would fix anything... The direct consequences of such change is that shroud uptime will be cut down even more than it already is and thus necromancer's players will see the shroud even more as their one and only precious defensive tool, refraining from using it for both offense and support.

 

Energy management rework can only go along with a whole rework of necromancer's defensive means. The "2nd health bar" is and have always been the necromancer's issue, the issue not being the shroud in itself since it can be liken to an extra weaponset but the fact that necromancer's main mean of defense is tied to it's ressource.

[Rhyse.8179]

I'm assuming that the resource management abilities would be rebalanced at the same time as this change. The point of the change is to make it possible to specifically target shroud uptime and LF generation for balance changes. Currently, the devs can't target these features because the possibility of massive incidental LF generation will always be there. It's a design flaw that makes the dev's life harder and we pay for it with a perpetually weak defense.

 

In theory, it would allow major buffs to shroud because they could be reliably counterbalanced by adjusting LF generation, instead of LF being a tossup based on what's near you. It would take some major changes, but no more then Mesmer got with it's phantasm rework.

[KrHome.1920]

Get rid of the Life Force gain on deaths, rework Death Magic and reset Life Force to 50% when leaving combat.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> I would settle with this if necro got a 5 sec cd on shroud :0

 

They got 10 seconds already.Having more than that is unreasonble.

[misterman.1530]

So...nerf the one thing, the ONE thing, that a necro has to, at least, stave off death for a short period. No Invuln, no block, no retaliation, no stealth - and take away life force gains? How about Anet replacing Greatsword with a wet noodle too while they are at it?

 

[Yannir.4132]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> So...nerf the one thing, the ONE thing, that a necro has to, at least, stave off death for a short period. No Invuln, no block, no retaliation, no stealth - and take away life force gains? How about Anet replacing Greatsword with a wet noodle too while they are at it?

 

It's not intended as a nerf(as you would've noticed if you'd read the entire thread) but rather to replace LF from nearby deaths with LF gained from weapon skills(means that virtually all LF gained from weapon skills, etc. would be increased). It would in fact be a buff as it would remove RNG elements from LF gain, thus making it more reliable and controllable as a mechanic.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

That may be a-nets intended design. Being the guy that feeds off your team's failures rather then successes he is best equipped to save them when things go south. He is already best in slot resser, and getting additional survivability because allies die makes him even better (not so easy to down him when he's ressing ppl).

 

If randomness of the life force from nearby deaths is indeed the reason necro is being held back in some aspects, then the more controllable, replacement solution should still at least offer a choice of a mechanic that's true to the original intent - you getting more resilient when allies die, so you can get a good shot at getting them back up, before joining the downed party yourself.

[derd.6413]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> That may be a-nets intended design. Being the guy that feeds off your team's failures rather then successes he is best equipped to save them when things go south. He is already best in slot resser, and getting additional survivability because allies die makes him even better (not so easy to down him when he's ressing ppl).

>

> If randomness of the life force from nearby deaths is indeed the reason necro is being held back in some aspects, then the more controllable, replacement solution should still at least offer a choice of a mechanic that's true to the original intent - you getting more resilient when allies die, so you can get a good shot at getting them back up, before joining the downed party yourself.

 

nothing should reward you for the failure of your team. that's just asinine.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

It's hardly a reward "for me". But it helps us do what we do best - ress.

[derd.6413]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> It's hardly a reward "for me". But it helps us do what we do best - ress.

 

except you can't rez dead players in raids, pvp and wvw (unless you're out of combat where it doesn't matter) so LF on death is useless outside of open world (let's face it, you shouldn't balance around open world) and fractals.

 

also having to manage your lf so you're always ready to rez just in case is more skillfull and interesting to play then a rez build that gives you the LF whenever you need it.

 

and this only is the case if you're running support necro/scourge, any other build and your argument doesn't apply

 

or tldr: your argument only affects one specific build in 2 game modes (one of which shouldn't be balanced around because everything is vaiable) and all it accomplishes is to make the build easier and more boring

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> I'm assuming that the resource management abilities would be rebalanced at the same time as this change. The point of the change is to make it possible to specifically target shroud uptime and LF generation for balance changes. Currently, the devs can't target these features because the possibility of massive incidental LF generation will always be there. It's a design flaw that makes the dev's life harder and we pay for it with a perpetually weak defense.

>

> In theory, it would allow major buffs to shroud because they could be reliably counterbalanced by adjusting LF generation, instead of LF being a tossup based on what's near you. It would take some major changes, but no more then Mesmer got with it's phantasm rework.

 

It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system. The "2nd life bar" is and will always be the root of the problem, the issue isn't LF gen, honnestly, LF on death only really affect positively necromancer's efficiency in WvW.

 

The real issue is that the "2nd life bar" stand as the main mean of defense of the core necromancer which create a hole in defensive diversity. The "2nd life bar" being highly dependant of the LF gen, with the LF on death loss, the necromancer end up losing the few mean of LF gen when he is "avoiding combat", which impact him negatively. The necromancer also end up losing it scaling defense which is there to make him stronger against more player like other players have invuln skills that can fend off unlimited amount of damage.

 

Your suggestion only tame scourge output and nerf core and reaper's defense in WvW, all the design flaw stay untouched. Sure you can imagine ANet giving candies for the trade off but they won't because if they do like you suggest, they will make the necromancer and it's specializations a lot stronger in sPvP where there is a lesser amount of death to fill in the LF bar, which is not something anyone wish for.

 

NB.: You say that in theory it would allow major buffs to shroud but in fact it doesn't. Even in theory this is a no go. That's because the reason the shroud need to be kept in a weak state is not because LF gen can be endless, but because it allow both offense and defense to coexist at the same time. What's needed is to cut off the 2nd life bar and give the necromancer a whole new defensive system, supported by a totally reworked death magic traitline (Thought, even that mean that reaper and scourge will have to be tweaked to bear such huge change). LF on death impact is abysmal on balance since it only impact WvW and especially scourge. I can understand that you don't like scourge, I don't like it either but there is no reason to punish the whole profession for a failed shade mechanism.

[derd.6413]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > I'm assuming that the resource management abilities would be rebalanced at the same time as this change. The point of the change is to make it possible to specifically target shroud uptime and LF generation for balance changes. Currently, the devs can't target these features because the possibility of massive incidental LF generation will always be there. It's a design flaw that makes the dev's life harder and we pay for it with a perpetually weak defense.

> >

> > In theory, it would allow major buffs to shroud because they could be reliably counterbalanced by adjusting LF generation, instead of LF being a tossup based on what's near you. It would take some major changes, but no more then Mesmer got with it's phantasm rework.

>

> It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system. The "2nd life bar" is and will always be the root of the problem, the issue isn't LF gen, honnestly, LF on death only really affect positively necromancer's efficiency in WvW.

>

> The real issue is that the "2nd life bar" stand as the main mean of defense of the core necromancer which create a hole in defensive diversity. The "2nd life bar" being highly dependant of the LF gen, with the LF on death loss, the necromancer end up losing the few mean of LF gen when he is "avoiding combat", which impact him negatively. The necromancer also end up losing it scaling defense which is there to make him stronger against more player like other players have invuln skills that can fend off unlimited amount of damage.

>

> Your suggestion only tame scourge output and nerf core and reaper's defense in WvW, all the design flaw stay untouched. Sure you can imagine ANet giving candies for the trade off but they won't because if they do like you suggest, they will make the necromancer and it's specializations a lot stronger in sPvP where there is a lesser amount of death to fill in the LF bar, which is not something anyone wish for.

>

> NB.: You say that in theory it would allow major buffs to shroud but in fact it doesn't. Even in theory this is a no go. That's because the reason the shroud need to be kept in a weak state is not because LF gen can be endless, but because it allow both offense and defense to coexist at the same time. What's needed is to cut off the 2nd life bar and give the necromancer a whole new defensive system, supported by a totally reworked death magic traitline (Thought, even that mean that reaper and scourge will have to be tweaked to bear such huge change). LF on death impact is abysmal on balance since it only impact WvW and especially scourge. I can understand that you don't like scourge, I don't like it either but there is no reason to punish the whole profession for a failed shade mechanism.

 

so that's a "maybe as part of a death magic rework"?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> so that's a "maybe as part of a death magic rework"?

 

That's a "only alongside a major rework of necromancer's defensive system".

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > I would settle with this if necro got a 5 sec cd on shroud :0

>

> They got 10 seconds already.Having more than that is unreasonble.

 

then no more life force Degen?

[Axl.8924]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > I would settle with this if necro got a 5 sec cd on shroud :0

> >

> > They got 10 seconds already.Having more than that is unreasonble.

>

> then no more life force Degen?

 

If anything i'd be ok with lower the cd to 7 and changing the way we recharge our energy so we can go into reaper.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

>

> To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

>

> The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

>

> Obviously there are many situations, and not all of them are bad for the necro, I just picked that one as one example of where the mechanic fails.

>

> So fix it. Make LF gained ONLY through active, intentional skill use. LF generating skills and traits will obviously need rebalanced - but this is the gateway change to fixing Necro as a whole (without removing Shroud, that is). It's literally the only way to make Shroud balance-able.

>

>

 

I dont think this will solve necros problems honestly not sure why you want to make this a big thing. Yes life force from deaths is some what pointless but this will not solve a ton of the core problems. IF anything it might make it worse if this is the first step to be considered.

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

> >

> > To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

> >

> > The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

> >

> > Obviously there are many situations, and not all of them are bad for the necro, I just picked that one as one example of where the mechanic fails.

> >

> > So fix it. Make LF gained ONLY through active, intentional skill use. LF generating skills and traits will obviously need rebalanced - but this is the gateway change to fixing Necro as a whole (without removing Shroud, that is). It's literally the only way to make Shroud balance-able.

> >

> >

>

> I dont think this will solve necros problems honestly not sure why you want to make this a big thing. Yes life force from deaths is some what pointless but this will not solve a ton of the core problems. IF anything it might make it worse if this is the first step to be considered.

>

 

Unless they add a energy regeneration feature with some sort of trait? that could work.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > > Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

> > >

> > > To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

> > >

> > > The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

> > >

> > > Obviously there are many situations, and not all of them are bad for the necro, I just picked that one as one example of where the mechanic fails.

> > >

> > > So fix it. Make LF gained ONLY through active, intentional skill use. LF generating skills and traits will obviously need rebalanced - but this is the gateway change to fixing Necro as a whole (without removing Shroud, that is). It's literally the only way to make Shroud balance-able.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I dont think this will solve necros problems honestly not sure why you want to make this a big thing. Yes life force from deaths is some what pointless but this will not solve a ton of the core problems. IF anything it might make it worse if this is the first step to be considered.

> >

>

> Unless they add a energy regeneration feature with some sort of trait? that could work.

 

I thought the same thing but then thats a buff and a nerf at the same time what happens if you exit combat above a certain amount do you just lose what you worked for? IT cant work the exact same way rev energy does for a few reasons. or so i think off the top of my head

[Axl.8924]

Please explain.

 

For instance what if:That trait that lowers cd what if instead it regens life force outside of reaper form and slows down life force degen in reaper?

 

Would that be too overpowered?

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

>

> To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

>

> The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

>

>

 

Getting LF benefits from deaths is like getting on-death benefits from sigils like Bloodlust. Unlike the sigils, though, the LF benefit is transitory.

 

So if you want to remove LF benefits from deaths, you should first remove on-death benefits from sigils, because....the player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay and the dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance, and on-death sigil benefits last until you die.

 

Just say No to LF nerfs.

 

[derd.6413]

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> > @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > Posting a new thread just in case the devs stop by (the last patch turned me into an optimist I guess). None of the old discussions are on the front page and I thoguht this was better then necro'ing.

> >

> > To truly fix Necro, the first thing to change MUST be the life force gain from nearby deaths. The reason is that it's uncontrollable.

> >

> > The player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay. The dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance. Remember that LF feeds into Shroud, which is an alternate HP pool. If you can't balance LF gain, you can't balance that HP pool. If people around are terribad, you will have loads of incoming LF. If they are competent, your own gameplay gets nerfed. Not only does the Necro's success depend on those around them and not themselves, but it's the inverse of what it should be. If your allies are fighting a boss and all of them are dying, you'll easily have enough LF to be the last one standing - not that this will do you any good, because, you know, boss (ouch). If your allies are doing well, your own resources are diminished. Why should we be punished for our squad doing things right?

> >

> >

>

> Getting LF benefits from deaths is like getting on-death benefits from sigils like Bloodlust. Unlike the sigils, though, the LF benefit is transitory.

>

> So if you want to remove LF benefits from deaths, you should first remove on-death benefits from sigils, because....the player can't control it, so it's no good as gameplay and the dev's can't control it, so it's impossible to balance, and on-death sigil benefits last until you die.

>

> Just say No to LF nerfs.

>

 

the big difference is that in order to gain the benefits of the on death sigils you need to kill the foe, in order to gain LF you just need to be near it when it dies which means you can get LF without doing anything and from your teammates dying.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> It's not intended as a nerf(as you would've noticed if you'd read the entire thread) but rather to replace LF from nearby deaths with LF gained from weapon skills(means that virtually all LF gained from weapon skills, etc. would be increased). It would in fact be a buff as it would remove RNG elements from LF gain, thus making it more reliable and controllable as a mechanic.

 

This one gets it.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system.

 

That's kind of the point. Once LF is reliable and controllable, a complete rework becomes possible.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Rhyse.8179" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > It may be a design flaw but this is necromancer's only scaling defense. Like I said, touching life force management must be done alongside a full rework of necromancer's defensive system.

>

> That's kind of the point. Once LF is reliable and controllable, a complete rework becomes possible.

>

>

 

Well, no, a complete rework is totally possible without touching LF gain from death. Like I said, LF gain from death only really impact WvW and act as a scalling defense mechanic there for core and reaper while it act as an endless fuel for scourge.

 

And again, you won't have an increase of LF gen throught weaponskill because it would most likely break balance in sPvP. LF gain from death is a minor change that can't be made without a revamp of the necromancer's defensive tools. I know it's stupid but the change that you propose just can't be made before a full defensive rework, only alongside or after.