ZDragon.3046 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > If anything:reaper needs buffed rather than nerfed so it can be competitive all the way up to plat 3 and maybe legendary? > > > > I mean Make the necro have to take defensive traits to allow it to be super competitive. > > so to make reaper good, they need to rework DM Reaper nearly is good as is to make core necro good they need to rework DM As a result reaper will benefit yes but still most of reapers problems come from core problems not reaper specific problems. Reaper only needs 2 things at most A change to the shout trait (life stealing is not a good fit for them) Maybe ammo on some shouts also ie suffer / nothing can save you Some form 2-3 second super speed to help it chase better, could easily be merged into Relentless Pursuit at the cost of some of its current effectiveness its not really something people pick up because its currently not very worth vs the other 2 trait options even the bad shout traits is a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Wail of doom? Reaper's Touch or bouncy scythe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > Good sustain? No > > Good mobility? No > > Good amount of stability? No > > Good amount of defense? No > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. No you got that backwards In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have - no instant blinks to disengage or engage - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > Scourge and reaper confirm this. This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > Good mobility? No > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > No you got that backwards > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > No you got that backwards > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp In pve specifically Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > > > No you got that backwards > > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. > > I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp > Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) > > That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. > > Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. How much do you wanna bet i could do tier 2 and 3 with tempest? yes they are squishy but they make up for it in mobility.Yes they die easy if hit but having protect spell on earth makes them pretty good at survival. Maybe i'm just getting really used to tempest and ele, but i don't find it as hard anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > > > > > No you got that backwards > > > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > > > > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. > > > > I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp > > Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) > > > > That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. > > > > Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. > > How much do you wanna bet i could do tier 2 and 3 with tempest? yes they are squishy but they make up for it in mobility.Yes they die easy if hit but having protect spell on earth makes them pretty good at survival. Whoa hang on man lol.... Im not going to bet you anything I never said it was not impossible to use other professions and survive but generally speaking necro can survive without having to do any special or heavy prep to make it through as you would have to do with tempest Necro does not need to do this to take those same hits and be ok in most situations. In pve Necro is very flexible and can get away with alot of things other professions generally cannot without having to build specifically for those things My point is that its generally easier (especially for newer/average/majority players) to survive with necro not to say that other professions cannot survive the same content. > > Maybe i'm just getting really used to tempest and ele, but i don't find it as hard anymore. If you use anything long enough it will generally become second nature to you so long as you continue to use it :) but try to think from a limited play time / new player perspective. The majority wont play to master they will play to play. Yes most humans by nature are at some level competitive but not everyone is pushing hard to be at the top. Generally most people will find necro easier. IT is really by some dumb luck, most likely, a new player friendly profession in pve i doubt the devs wanted to specifically make it that way but it is that way by its design. That does not mean it shouldn't have good things available to it either as some people will point out however most people seem to think because it is so low level play friendly that it shouldn't have good things. The problem is people who love to play necro can easily feel hurt when you tell them the one profession they love to play (not because its easier in pve or has simply damage combos) should not have good things because its a noob profession and then the balance team follows this up by culling necro stuff and the main reason is because a mass of players felt that "You shouldnt have it because its a noob profession." Rarely is something out right op on necro in most cases if it was really op on necro it was a bug (Bugged scourge) or lately discovered through some form random of coordination (Epidemic bounce) which i still think personally was handled incorrectly despite me not even being a major user of the skill myself Another likely situation is that people feel that that the necro profession should not be beating them or is performing close to the same level of damage when spent possibly more time mastering a different profession or current profession of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > > > > > > > No you got that backwards > > > > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > > > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > > > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > > > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > > > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > > > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > > > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > > > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > > > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > > > > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > > > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > > > > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > > > > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > > > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > > > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > > > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > > > > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > > > > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > > > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > > > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > > > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > > > > > > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. > > > > > > I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp > > > Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) > > > > > > That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. > > > > > > Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. > > > > How much do you wanna bet i could do tier 2 and 3 with tempest? yes they are squishy but they make up for it in mobility.Yes they die easy if hit but having protect spell on earth makes them pretty good at survival. > Whoa hang on man lol.... > Im not going to bet you anything I never said it was not impossible to use other professions and survive but generally speaking necro can survive without having to do any special or heavy prep to make it through as you would have to do with tempest Necro does not need to do this to take those same hits and be ok in most situations. In pve Necro is very flexible and can get away with alot of things other professions generally cannot without having to build specifically for those things > > My point is that its generally easier (especially for newer/average/majority players) to survive with necro not to say that other professions cannot survive the same content. > > > > > Maybe i'm just getting really used to tempest and ele, but i don't find it as hard anymore. > > If you use anything long enough it will generally become second nature to you so long as you continue to use it :) but try to think from a limited play time / new player perspective. The majority wont play to master they will play to play. Yes most humans by nature are at some level competitive but not everyone is pushing hard to be at the top. > > Generally most people will find necro easier. IT is really by some dumb luck, most likely, a new player friendly profession in pve i doubt the devs wanted to specifically make it that way but it is that way by its design. That does not mean it shouldn't have good things available to it either as some people will point out however most people seem to think because it is so low level play friendly that it shouldn't have good things. > > The problem is people who love to play necro can easily feel hurt when you tell them the one profession they love to play (not because its easier in pve or has simply damage combos) should not have good things because its a noob profession and then the balance team follows this up by culling necro stuff and the main reason is because a mass of players felt that "You shouldnt have it because its a noob profession." Rarely is something out right op on necro in most cases if it was really op on necro it was a bug (Bugged scourge) or lately discovered through some form random of coordination (Epidemic bounce) which i still think personally was handled incorrectly despite me not even being a major user of the skill myself > > Another likely situation is that people feel that that the necro profession should not be beating them or is performing close to the same level of damage when spent possibly more time mastering a different profession or current profession of choice. > I wasn't trying to be rude, its just that with reaper shroud i think that in its current state with low duration, its not that much tankier than a tempest, except tempest has slighly more mobility, and reaper has more health slightly.Besides:The aftershock combo+ protection is 50% damage reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > > > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > > > > > > > > > No you got that backwards > > > > > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > > > > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > > > > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > > > > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > > > > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > > > > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > > > > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > > > > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > > > > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > > > > > > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > > > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > > > > > > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > > > > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > > > > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > > > > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > > > > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > > > > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > > > > > > > > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. > > > > > > > > I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp > > > > Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) > > > > > > > > That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. > > > > > > > > Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. > > > > > > How much do you wanna bet i could do tier 2 and 3 with tempest? yes they are squishy but they make up for it in mobility.Yes they die easy if hit but having protect spell on earth makes them pretty good at survival. > > Whoa hang on man lol.... > > Im not going to bet you anything I never said it was not impossible to use other professions and survive but generally speaking necro can survive without having to do any special or heavy prep to make it through as you would have to do with tempest Necro does not need to do this to take those same hits and be ok in most situations. In pve Necro is very flexible and can get away with alot of things other professions generally cannot without having to build specifically for those things > > > > My point is that its generally easier (especially for newer/average/majority players) to survive with necro not to say that other professions cannot survive the same content. > > > > > > > > Maybe i'm just getting really used to tempest and ele, but i don't find it as hard anymore. > > > > If you use anything long enough it will generally become second nature to you so long as you continue to use it :) but try to think from a limited play time / new player perspective. The majority wont play to master they will play to play. Yes most humans by nature are at some level competitive but not everyone is pushing hard to be at the top. > > > > Generally most people will find necro easier. IT is really by some dumb luck, most likely, a new player friendly profession in pve i doubt the devs wanted to specifically make it that way but it is that way by its design. That does not mean it shouldn't have good things available to it either as some people will point out however most people seem to think because it is so low level play friendly that it shouldn't have good things. > > > > The problem is people who love to play necro can easily feel hurt when you tell them the one profession they love to play (not because its easier in pve or has simply damage combos) should not have good things because its a noob profession and then the balance team follows this up by culling necro stuff and the main reason is because a mass of players felt that "You shouldnt have it because its a noob profession." Rarely is something out right op on necro in most cases if it was really op on necro it was a bug (Bugged scourge) or lately discovered through some form random of coordination (Epidemic bounce) which i still think personally was handled incorrectly despite me not even being a major user of the skill myself > > > > Another likely situation is that people feel that that the necro profession should not be beating them or is performing close to the same level of damage when spent possibly more time mastering a different profession or current profession of choice. > > > > I wasn't trying to be rude, its just that with reaper shroud i think that in its current state with low duration, its not that much tankier than a tempest, except tempest has slighly more mobility, and reaper has more health slightly.Besides:The aftershock combo+ protection is 50% damage reduction. Yes its lower than core but also deals far superior damage to core. Even practically it has more mobility than core. The reduced overall duration is sad but it works out so to speak. in all honestly if core took a shroud duration cut in exchange for some major boost to its shroud skills i might be happy with that too core is depressingly weak compared to it specs and i only play it for the visual flavor at this point or when i want to experiment. Ideally Core Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger (especially) are very strong Core thief could be better but its not bad its over shadowed by its e specs its still solid enough to support its especs though. Core engi is getting better it could be alot better but its slowly getting there not sure if it ever will be up there with the others but its not so bad Core necro is shaky it was good but fell behind due to limitations in its design. Reaper house on a crippled foundation and scourge is basically its own profession all in 1 traitline Core Rev is very bad because of how it was designed . Some people do play it cause rev can be a fun profession. People consider a lot of its traitlines too situational which make it shaky. The old version of herald was like reaper a house on bad foundation. I dont even really see as many revs sense the update for herald so i dont know whats going on there. Renegade could be like scourge (its own profession in 1 traitline) if they considered having the utility boosted to be stronger and more reliable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People need not to facetank it, that's true. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you gotta admit do big damage in reaper is the most brainless thing to do, literally every single you pop hit for over 7k, even reaper autos can hit up to 10k crit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every single skill in reaper is worth a dodge, a block, an evade, and perma chill weakness and cripple used by a power profession are crazy strong conditions at you disposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially when you enter reaper mode, it has no animation tells and it's instant and gotta use instinct to avoid it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not overpowered by any mean, but being a pug noob stomper is literally abused by everyone, even mediocre players being immediately champions with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need to be a pro to land 10k reaper autos, at least have the honesty to admit that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And watch out, I am not calling for nerfs or call the class OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But yeah it's just like dragonhunter when it was released, easy mode pug stomper build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you say braindead, but which class is not completely braindead? perma invul spellbreaker? yolosmith? or pewpew from 2k range with 10k AA soulbeast? or perma invis DE? i mean what is your point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no class you Need skill to Stomp noobs. and besides, as reaper you Need a lot of skill to not insta die. most necros Need great map awareness using ridges and other stuff to avoid enemies bombs. i hva enever seen that by any warrior (only Standing in 5 enemies and dont getting any dmg, GG), and great class Knowledge. you cant yolopush on reaper because you would only hit in invuls while being terminated by everything. you Need to know how many Sustain skills, dodges, teleports every enemy has to know when the Moment has come to go in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > most necros heavily changing builds in every fight depending on which enemies they are Fighting. but classes like warrior run sicne 6 years the same build against every build. as necro you would never Play greatsword against an deadeye, cause you will never hit a good one with it. so you Play range (axe/stuff). on the other side you would never use staff against Warriors, there you use GS. for every enemy you Need other weapons, utilities, traits. i have never to do that on any other classes. so necro is the least braindead class in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant actually is the only class with oneshot burst potential which requires being and thinking fast, requires timing, good energy management or you are screwed, one mistake and you usually die. First week playing rev you will be 90% of the times on downed state constantly before getting results if you never played it before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno why you attack warrior like that, I am not a warrior main and I agree it's a simple braindead easy mode profession, same as noobeast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But same as reaper too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can and destroy a spellbreaker or warrior and even an holosmith (necro counters engi) as a reaper without problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro since beta was and is the NOOB friendly pick class of everyone jumping into the game, identical as warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > Press few buttons for perma chills and high bombs damage is easy and braindead mode sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course ranged pressure counters necro a lot, everyone has an hard counter, but this doesn't make the class less braindead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a test I tried not to dodge elite necro skill Chilled to the bone. > > > > > > > > > > > > This guy with 5 minutes of gameplay on reaper, after landing elite immediately entered shroud, i was cripple chilled and with weakness, landed 2 skills I was already 10% health. > > > > > > > > > > > > I escaped a bit, he turned off shroud, axe2 at 900 range, I was dead. 22k hp in about 2-3 seconds of fight. I know my mistakes for not dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This to explain how every single skill in reaper is worth dodging, and that's why even a noob can be a champion with it immediately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I repeat I am not calling for nerfs or calling it OP, but it's just another noob friendly braindead spec same as noobreaker, noobeast, noobeye, scourge etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I see everyone just run greatsword + axe/wh, I don't see that crazy build switching you are talking to. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's just the usually build since reaper was released, now it shines because of the recent quickness rework, but nothing new under the sun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Almost anyone can do nothing against deadeye, so you run gs anyway, deadeye is your hard counter anyway, you don't have much options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) Revenant has with Shiro, stuff and Sword a huge amount of dodges, and while you are dodging you are attacking your Opponent. so where does it require skill? herald has great mobilty, burst and survivability. you can use glint heal if you are under pessure and getting full life again, so no way to insta die on rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.) i dont know what you were testing there, but not dodging necro elite skill that has huge telling is not a test, its like you are telling me "i tested not dodging a mesmer shatter, i died instantly." sry, but not dodging enemies attacks kills you? no wonder… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.)you Need a lot of skill to managing your lifeforce on necro cause you only have 1 good skill for that and thats spectral armor. besides that you have to land A LOT of weapon skills until you get a serious amount of lifeforce from weapon skills against nearly perma invul enemies, good luck with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4.) if you are just ONE TIME out of Position ur dead as necro/reaper. how many mistakes can a Mirage have until he get punished? 10 times? everytime you stun that class or attacking it it spamms their invulns. spiking a warrior as reaper JUST by Pressing f1 and 4 and it will proc Auto invul while the warrior Massacres you with his greatsword and full counter while you cannot Pressing anything while casting RS4. and in WHICH world does necro counter engi/holo? holo is perma CC ing you while reaper has nearly no Access to stabi. reaper elite for stabi? oh sry just 600 range. holo already stunns you with rifle from 1200 range, also with his elite he stunns you. while you are stunned he leaps to you continue to stunn you with forged form. if you go to shroud he leaps away from you. i have never seen a warrior that cant get heales while endure pain or loosing 1k life per second for using endure pain like reaper in shroud. i have never seen a reaper that is low life and healing full life in just a few seconds like FB, engi, ele… sry but you are just Focusing on the ONE Thing necro has, its dmg. but how much skill you Need to stay alive on a class without invuls, blocks, dodges until the end of world, and invis you ignore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Definition of overpowered mechanics are mechanics that dont have a counter. but anything the necro does can at least get countered by invulns,dodges,range and mobilty. and EVERY other class has Access to those mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all discussions i just see people have two measures. 1 for necro that is not allowed to do anything. > > > > > > > > > > > and 1 for every other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just remember how much People complained About "out of nowhere burst from scourge" so anet implemented the red circles. > > > > > > > > > > > but out of nowhere burst on thief and Mirage are fine… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like i said in another thread, if you want to discuss About balancing you have to see the WHOLE Performance of a class. and there is reaper still minor to warrior, thief, mesmer, guard,ranger, holo….because no other class has so huge tellings for their skills, low mobility, low Access to stability, no heal and no Sustain. other classes hit like reaper but with 10 times more survivability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know glint heal is one of the most easy to counter heals? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you spam your skills and fully heal the enemy rev that's a l2p issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny that you mention the l2p issue. Cause every time necro is stronger, everyone complains about it but nobody actually want to l2p against necro, with his 3 big weaknesses. Instead everyone is crying and necro gets nerfed. > > > > > > > > > But as soon as it comes to another class it's a l2p issue? That really doesn't seem right. Trait every class the same, then it's ok. (This isn't something against you, but against a lot of people out there) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Difference is, with rev any skill you use must be timed right or one mistake and you die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With necro you can afford many many mistakes same as warrior and still get away with it and win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant always was the class who attracted people who wanted a skill level to play it at hos max. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Necro warrior ranger are the easy pick of starters because they are easy mode braindead professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do admit, necro is an easy starter class. Especially reaper. Reaper murders anyone, that > > > > > > > > > 1) never played necro himself and learned about the weaknesses > > > > > > > > > 2)that doesn't know his own class or build and how to use it > > > > > > > > > 3)that doesn't know what kiting and cc is > > > > > > > > > 4) that doesn't know how to dodge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that I think about it. There's a lot of such players... > > > > > > > > > But if you go into better skilled players, you will always see necro loose. Or at least 80% of the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good sustain? No > > > > > > > > > Good mobility? No > > > > > > > > > Good amount of stability? No > > > > > > > > > Good amount of defense? No > > > > > > > > > It's only good in 0-900 range and then it's freaking weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And still, if you try to kill someone with autoinvuln, they will laugh , let themselves get hit and then burst you back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But necro only has very little access to defense. The only good defense it has is shroud, but it's also the burst, offensive option. So if you use it as defense, most of the times you loose your ability to pressure enemy's back, as many builds easily just hit you so hard in shroud, that you will quickly drop out of shroud. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now some people might argue: but I always see players like hollts demolishing groups of people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last week I saw one of those videos. The reaper walked into a supply camp, killing 3-4 people, that tried to take the camp for their server. > > > > > > > > > But you have to see, that those 3-4 people, didn't even try to kill the reaper, they just did their spawn-camp. And most of these people, trying to get their spawn-camp back, are pve people trying to get a gift of battle. So not very good people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to say, that hollts or other known players are bad. By far not. They just show things, that most people want to see. > > > > > > > > > I'd do the same if I would make new videos. Cause that's what brings the clicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me as a necro main, I would love to see 1v1s against very good other players, even if this results in a video with more losses than wins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did i asked for nerfs? Seems i have to repeat myself all the times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All i said is reaper is a noob friendly brainless easy to get into profession. > > > > > > > > And same as his brother scourge, in a gamemode like pvp where you win by controlling caps, with easy mode spammable aoes, one condi one power, over the cap points, they shines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No you got that backwards > > > > > > > In PvE necro in general can be pretty brainless to play and easy to pick up on because its survivability is much higher than most professions > > > > > > > in PvP this flips to having some of the worst survivability > > > > > > > - no free vigor trait like the other light armor professions have > > > > > > > - no super speed like the other light armor professiosn have > > > > > > > - no instant blinks to disengage or engage > > > > > > > - not able to handle relentless cc chains very well > > > > > > > - sustain is limited by shroud which can be burst through > > > > > > > - Generally has soft / passive defensive tools (shroud) and limited in active defensive tools (Which makes it easy in pve btw if you didnt know) > > > > > > > - is doomed to be focused before all other professions because of its team pressure potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In short necro does not get 3 and 4 chances in most cases like other professions do. Other professions often have better burst, active defensive tools, and mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I can't treat the profession all the same like you say because they are not all the same, warrior and necro are so easy to pick and become good at them in few time, rev for example takes a lot longer, it's called class diversity and skill cap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allow me to correct you. Ive put most of my hour into necro ill have you know that warrior plays the opposite of necro in my mind and its by far the hardest profession for me to pick up and play. Warrior is said to be EZ but despite what people say i struggle with it. I personally think warrior is rather hard to play as well in all gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said there are things that warrior can do to make it easier such as double stances and spell breaker in the right situations most professions will have hard time killing you even if you have hard time playing the profession itself. (based on my experience) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the same as those oneshot mesmers who mastered the oneshot burst over and over, they are not necessarily skilled players, they just mastered the oneshot burst, but they are still able to kill you regardless they have probably half of your skill. > > > > > > > > Scourge and reaper confirm this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This statement really makes no sense to me at all. "Scourge and reaper confirm what?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In spvp especially as necro most of the times you jump into the middle point spamming everything you have, not caring about the enemy having stability, resistance or anything and you see them melt by your condis or by your crazy high damage output without much effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No what ever necros you have been watching are the ones that usually go down instantly or they are scourges who are use to the bugged scourge and not aware of the changes that have been made. If reaper jumps into a fight and soul spirals and you eat the whole thing then maybe you are the one lacking some skill. If scourge almost nothing scourge has right now will deal tons of damage with the exception of the elite and if you stand in that too then well..... lack of skill. I dont know what you play but ive see necros do what you speak of and in most cases it does not work out very well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And when you perma cripple chill and weakness your enemy it's not that easy for him to immediately kite away from you since you move like a slow motion turtle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conditions are apart of necros only sustain. Chill and cripple use to be 100% more effective when they reduced movement skills too you know. That change hurt necro very badly in terms of its sustain and chase potential. > > > > > > > Generally under most builds its not going to be perma chill or weakness, perma cripple is a thing yes but thats because cripple is such a common condition now. > > > > > > > Chill has been reduced appropriately if you are getting perma chilled you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > > Perma weakness... lets have a talk about this one. Part of the perma weakness you might see from time to time comes from the fact that you might be swamping yourself in might consistently. Necro is the counter to the current meta that is boon drowning yourself. Untill anet cull boons appropriately like they did with conditions you will have this happen from time to time. Its not specifically the necros fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lastly WHY DONT YOU HAVE CONDITION CLEAR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SPVP >:C > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just look at scourge, it got "nerfed" every single patch from when released until now and it's still in the meta still dishing out cancerous condi spam that kills you in few seconds if you get caught unready, this shows how kitten is the concept of that profession. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ive already gone through this at best only 3 things can really kill you from scourge > > > > > > > 1 You stood in the elite for far too long because you got tunnel visioned aka you made a bad play and got punished for it but wont admit it > > > > > > > 2 You stood in desert shroud and just face tanked it because you thought you should automatically win once again bad play > > > > > > > 3 You were swimming in boons and the scourge chose to make the right play by slapping you with scepter 3 or corrupt boon (As they should) and you kind of got screwed by your own boons. This is not really bad play but its not your fault that the scourge made the sensible choice and got rewarded for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge shades when desert shroud is not active are pretty harmless now they simply dont do enough to instantly melt you the only exception being is if they get a few lucky boon converts on hit. But as stated thats not really their fault that you were downed in boons. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally i don't find pve reaper brainless at all.You too sound a bit like a hater.I mean like every other class i got to switch tools to be efficient, and for pve, especially fractals, i have to change to wells to survive. > > > > > > > > > > I main reaper and have played other professions in pve and pvp > > > > > Compared to all of them necro is by far the easiest to survive with in pve thats not even an argument that thats just honesty. I dont hate necro in general cause its my fav and most played profession (about 5k hours of my total 7k play time) > > > > > > > > > > That said even if you have to change to wells to survive other professions dont have that option infact most other professions will get 1 shot when you wont be. The exceptions being warrior who also has natural high vitality. > > > > > > > > > > Please take my take my "brainless" term with a grain of salt. Ive played necro for so long that for me in pve it really takes no thought to play so for me in most of the general content it is brainless due to the sheer amount of time ive put into it. Where as other professions require me to focus rather hard. I know i can eat hits on necro like a boss and be just fine where as other professions will often be 1 shot by those same hits. > > > > > > > > How much do you wanna bet i could do tier 2 and 3 with tempest? yes they are squishy but they make up for it in mobility.Yes they die easy if hit but having protect spell on earth makes them pretty good at survival. > > > Whoa hang on man lol.... > > > Im not going to bet you anything I never said it was not impossible to use other professions and survive but generally speaking necro can survive without having to do any special or heavy prep to make it through as you would have to do with tempest Necro does not need to do this to take those same hits and be ok in most situations. In pve Necro is very flexible and can get away with alot of things other professions generally cannot without having to build specifically for those things > > > > > > My point is that its generally easier (especially for newer/average/majority players) to survive with necro not to say that other professions cannot survive the same content. > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe i'm just getting really used to tempest and ele, but i don't find it as hard anymore. > > > > > > If you use anything long enough it will generally become second nature to you so long as you continue to use it :) but try to think from a limited play time / new player perspective. The majority wont play to master they will play to play. Yes most humans by nature are at some level competitive but not everyone is pushing hard to be at the top. > > > > > > Generally most people will find necro easier. IT is really by some dumb luck, most likely, a new player friendly profession in pve i doubt the devs wanted to specifically make it that way but it is that way by its design. That does not mean it shouldn't have good things available to it either as some people will point out however most people seem to think because it is so low level play friendly that it shouldn't have good things. > > > > > > The problem is people who love to play necro can easily feel hurt when you tell them the one profession they love to play (not because its easier in pve or has simply damage combos) should not have good things because its a noob profession and then the balance team follows this up by culling necro stuff and the main reason is because a mass of players felt that "You shouldnt have it because its a noob profession." Rarely is something out right op on necro in most cases if it was really op on necro it was a bug (Bugged scourge) or lately discovered through some form random of coordination (Epidemic bounce) which i still think personally was handled incorrectly despite me not even being a major user of the skill myself > > > > > > Another likely situation is that people feel that that the necro profession should not be beating them or is performing close to the same level of damage when spent possibly more time mastering a different profession or current profession of choice. > > > > > > > I wasn't trying to be rude, its just that with reaper shroud i think that in its current state with low duration, its not that much tankier than a tempest, except tempest has slighly more mobility, and reaper has more health slightly.Besides:The aftershock combo+ protection is 50% damage reduction. > > Yes its lower than core but also deals far superior damage to core. Even practically it has more mobility than core. The reduced overall duration is sad but it works out so to speak. in all honestly if core took a shroud duration cut in exchange for some major boost to its shroud skills i might be happy with that too core is depressingly weak compared to it specs and i only play it for the visual flavor at this point or when i want to experiment. > > Ideally Core Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger (especially) are very strong > Core thief could be better but its not bad its over shadowed by its e specs its still solid enough to support its especs though. > Core engi is getting better it could be alot better but its slowly getting there not sure if it ever will be up there with the others but its not so bad > Core necro is shaky it was good but fell behind due to limitations in its design. Reaper house on a crippled foundation and scourge is basically its own profession all in 1 traitline > Core Rev is very bad because of how it was designed . Some people do play it cause rev can be a fun profession. People consider a lot of its traitlines too situational which make it shaky. The old version of herald was like reaper a house on bad foundation. I dont even really see as many revs sense the update for herald so i dont know whats going on there. Renegade could be like scourge (its own profession in 1 traitline) if they considered having the utility boosted to be stronger and more reliable > > I grouped with a herald yesterday.I know because of the dragon head thing that heralds have.Not really sure how it plays, because i couldn't get a answer. Tempest is arguably not that great of a position, at least compared to how well reaper is doing.I think if tempest had a buff to auramancing maybe 10 characters, it could be a good competitive buffer if its auras also got buffed to be lasting longer maybe able to provide quickness to compete and be desired. Scourge i think needs help in a lot of things.I like that it can spread condis, but this anti condi meta and anti necro sentiment put it in a bad situation, unless its pure support.It sandwhiches them in a area which not everyone wants to be in, and even though i really enjoy having barrier, its still niche. I actually had a healing support engi, and i thought the engi did really well in heals and support buffs.I think it was actually a scrapper, but i could be wrong. Anyways sorry for getting off topic here, i think we better do that before the moderators get angry at us and end up giving us a warning. Topic is:Reapers are strong yeah, they at core in wrold easy to pick up and learn and have deeper things to learn about when you play them.They deserve to be strong like every other spec, because limiting their potential because they can be learned easy enough at the start, like you said, doesn't mean they deserve to be half as strong as every other class in every aspect, and be totally useless. What i think is, having a really meaningful type of gameplay that is fun and enjoyable overall.The idea is everyone wants to have fun, and necros should be allowed to as well, i'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. Which is exactly where we were before. Or even prior to that, before the SR nerfs. A lot of professions do way too much damage for no reason now. It's not exclusive to reaper. And I've voiced my concerns over it occurring with soulbeast, spellbreaker/warrior, mirage, daredevil/deadeye, weaver, scourge, and now reaper. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. > > Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. > > Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? > Dude, please. I could have torn you a new one in the thief subsection if I wanted to because most of what you've said there is nonsense, and even a lot of what you've said in this subsection has also been interpreted as such by other necros. If you want to talk trash you should at least prove some competency and understanding of the class. At the highest level of play the reaper only saw drops in consistency and overall reduction of efficacy in the meta this last patch. It saw massive nerfs in WvW consistency for both blobbing and roaming because of a number of new inter-woven dependencies with in SR and gear choices. The **only** things reaper got improved upon was a minor amount of damage in PvE and easier kills into unskilled/unprepared players where the matchup already favored the reaper to begin with. This patch made its counters harder to deal with and shifted the reaper from something you went from out-playing as/against to something you either have the build to deal with or generally otherwise instantly die. Yes, soulbeast is overtuned AF right now, and arguably just as easy as the reaper is. That does not excuse the reaper or any other profession (like scourge, spellbreaker, firebrand, holo in WvW, SA deadeye, etc.) from being mindless and binary, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 Why is this thread still going on, when it's talking about other Professions? Also why is a thread like this even active. It's some emo speculation thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 One problem I have, which wasn't a problem before, is [Chill Of Death](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spinal_Shivers). The likelihood of people having 2 or more boons at any given point in sPvP is pretty much 100% now because of boon creep. Also because of the changes to [Cold Shoulder](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cold_Shoulder) and how spinal shivers applies chill before damage and boon removal it always gets the 10% damage boost and another 5% if you run the [sigil of Opportunity](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Opportunity). For the same condition-application-before-strike reason it works well with [Chilling Nova](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Nova). If you are in shroud it gets **up to** an extra +33% crit chance and **up to** 40% ctit damage. There are effective builds popping up that run Spiteful Talisman over bitter chill and the trait is one of the reasons. Though I don't get the complaints about chill. Its never going to be permanent unless you invest heavily into it via either traits, runes or utility skills. The amount of condition management in sPvP renders most condition builds pointless and the amount of movement abilities means getting away isn't as hard as people like to make out. If your abilities are on cool-down and you get chilled yeah its annoying, especially if you are an ele or necro, but there are so many other things higher on that list with number 1 being "well i guess I just die now". In PvE it's in an ok spot when it comes to power reaper. Change awaken the pain from 40/20 to 50/10 and it would be spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 20, 2018 Author Share Posted September 20, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. > > Which is exactly where we were before. Or even prior to that, before the SR nerfs. > > A lot of professions do way too much damage for no reason now. It's not exclusive to reaper. And I've voiced my concerns over it occurring with soulbeast, spellbreaker/warrior, mirage, daredevil/deadeye, weaver, scourge, and now reaper. > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. > > > > Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. > > > > Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? > > > > Dude, please. I could have torn you a new one in the thief subsection if I wanted to because most of what you've said there is nonsense, and even a lot of what you've said in this subsection has also been interpreted as such by other necros. If you want to talk trash you should at least prove some competency and understanding of the class. > > At the highest level of play the reaper only saw drops in consistency and overall reduction of efficacy in the meta this last patch. It saw massive nerfs in WvW consistency for both blobbing and roaming because of a number of new inter-woven dependencies with in SR and gear choices. > > The **only** things reaper got improved upon was a minor amount of damage in PvE and easier kills into unskilled/unprepared players where the matchup already favored the reaper to begin with. This patch made its counters harder to deal with and shifted the reaper from something you went from out-playing as/against to something you either have the build to deal with or generally otherwise instantly die. > > Yes, soulbeast is overtuned AF right now, and arguably just as easy as the reaper is. That does not excuse the reaper or any other profession (like scourge, spellbreaker, firebrand, holo in WvW, SA deadeye, etc.) from being mindless and binary, either. And your bias seems more strong than ever to get reaper nerfed. Yes i'm not the best thief i know that, i'm learning in pvp i wholy admit that, but this topic is for pve reaper.You just want reapers to be bad in pvp because you don't know how to kill one. Why shouldn't they be nerfed? prove? prove what? ok i'l bite They sacrificed sustain for dmg so you nerf the dmg you kill them THe dmg they got buffed at was not that minute it went from 28.000-30850 or somewhere around that, making reaper pretty close to where its supposed to be now by only around 2150-3150-dps average. Before this they were sub par in pve and for that they should not be nerfed, because they are still slightly below others and need buffs. in PVP they are noob killers for players who are really bad, but a good player will kite them.The baddies want them nerfed because they don't want to put effort to conter the reaper. Also why shouldn't you have to put in your build in modifications? why not put efford into learning to counter them? learn 2 kite your a thief you got better mobility than i ever can.Your S/D can teleport to me immob and run away and hide till reaper shroud is down.You shouldn't have auto win against any class. Why is this thread still going on, when it's talking about other Professions? Also why is a thread like this even active. It's some emo speculation thread. Because the baddies want reaper to be nerfed, even though every suggestion they made will gut reaper and make it trash tier in pvp and pve. Everyone knows anyways reapers would have to be carried to get far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. LoL Dmg needs to be toned down LoL Still every other class has more survivability and more dmg than reaper but reaper needs to be nerfed? Doesn't make sense at all. Only if you are racist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 20, 2018 Author Share Posted September 20, 2018 Nimon is right.Even if reapers hit really hard, only way to balance this out would be to improve everything else about reaper, such as mobility ccs and buff them in every other way, because they still have issues dealing with survivability and are outdated with the power creep happening. Remember also that topic in pvp about multiple viable specs in pvp and how before hot? Well these nerf specs are getting out of hand, in that nerfing specs not only sandwhiches, but creates very rigid specs.I remember someone complaining about revenants being rigid, well what about balancing out every other build for necro? Reaper has some issues besides damage, and nerfing damage will just bring out how flawed it is in that it will be a slow moving monster who can no longer hit hard but can't hit at all, and now he's weak due to shroud being on a very short duration and 10 seconds cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 [https://ibb.co/jTPrCK](https://ibb.co/jTPrCK "https://ibb.co/jTPrCK") Just few seconds ago while roaming on my revenant and found reaper, dropped him to 25% with my main burst, I used staff3 to block immediately after to kite. He entered shroud and this happened in 1-2 seconds before I could actually react and doing anything, I didn't even have the time to press glint heal. Yeah he downed me in 1-2 seconds by spamming shroud skills. Yeah this profession takes definetely skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinhZeri.6412 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 Im just curious why the skills themselves not changed with increased speed and put all of the viability in 1 single grandmaster skill to make the other two completely irreleavent.. its quite odd balancing if you ask me. Blighters boon needs help terribly bad and no reason deathly chill still hasnt returned to the first version (BEFORE THEY BUFFED IT FOR CONDI) simply make deathly chill do the same thing fear has just at lower damage or just make it do something else while chill is on target like reduced damage (Like death magics poison version....) . Heck even just make chill have its own dmg with the trait on doing half the amount burn but with no stacking capabilities . to be honest all professions should have themes to what they offer, first skill being offensive, second defense, last utility... this way it would make balancing quiet easier on how mcuh stuff has. talking to no one here who balances the game so all these ideas are for nothing lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 > @"whoknocks.4935" said: > [https://ibb.co/jTPrCK](https://ibb.co/jTPrCK "https://ibb.co/jTPrCK") > Just few seconds ago while roaming on my revenant and found reaper, **dropped him to 25% with my main burst**, I used staff3 to block immediately after to kite. > He entered shroud **and this happened in 1-2 seconds** before I could actually react and doing anything, I didn't even have the time to press glint heal. > > **Yeah he downed me in 1-2 seconds by spamming shroud skills**. Yeah this profession takes definetely skill. This picture proves you are a bad player (and a liar). The death's charge alone in your face (the numbers clearly state he did it in melee range, which btw. is a waste of ressources) takes about a second not even to mention the 5 soul spiral hits and two whole autoattack rotations. All you would have to do, was using riposting shadows after he popped shroud to kite him. Well you couldn't, because all you know about revenant is the oneshot weaponswap into legendswap combo, that ends you up in glint stance. So you clearly misplayed. It's not the reaper's fault, that you play onetrick pony tactics he can punish after you failed. That 5,8k lesser spinal shivers hit shows you were full glass (berserker or marauder). If you duell a power build while not running some toughness gear you have to use your blocks, dodges and evades properly, which you clearly did not even though you have plenty of them on revenant. Get good! You want a simple counter tactic to that quickness reaper build? Just spam riposting shadows -> hammer auto -> hammer 2 -> hammer auto -> riposting shadows -> hammer 2 etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > > > > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. > > > > Which is exactly where we were before. Or even prior to that, before the SR nerfs. > > > > A lot of professions do way too much damage for no reason now. It's not exclusive to reaper. And I've voiced my concerns over it occurring with soulbeast, spellbreaker/warrior, mirage, daredevil/deadeye, weaver, scourge, and now reaper. > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. > > > > > > Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. > > > > > > Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? > > > > > > > Dude, please. I could have torn you a new one in the thief subsection if I wanted to because most of what you've said there is nonsense, and even a lot of what you've said in this subsection has also been interpreted as such by other necros. If you want to talk trash you should at least prove some competency and understanding of the class. > > > > At the highest level of play the reaper only saw drops in consistency and overall reduction of efficacy in the meta this last patch. It saw massive nerfs in WvW consistency for both blobbing and roaming because of a number of new inter-woven dependencies with in SR and gear choices. > > > > The **only** things reaper got improved upon was a minor amount of damage in PvE and easier kills into unskilled/unprepared players where the matchup already favored the reaper to begin with. This patch made its counters harder to deal with and shifted the reaper from something you went from out-playing as/against to something you either have the build to deal with or generally otherwise instantly die. > > > > Yes, soulbeast is overtuned AF right now, and arguably just as easy as the reaper is. That does not excuse the reaper or any other profession (like scourge, spellbreaker, firebrand, holo in WvW, SA deadeye, etc.) from being mindless and binary, either. > > And your bias seems more strong than ever to get reaper nerfed. > > Yes i'm not the best thief i know that, i'm learning in pvp i wholy admit that, but this topic is for pve reaper.You just want reapers to be bad in pvp because you don't know how to kill one. > > Why shouldn't they be nerfed? > > prove? prove what? ok i'l bite > > They sacrificed sustain for dmg so you nerf the dmg you kill them > THe dmg they got buffed at was not that minute it went from 28.000-30850 or somewhere around that, making reaper pretty close to where its supposed to be now by only around 2150-3150-dps average. > > Before this they were sub par in pve and for that they should not be nerfed, because they are still slightly below others and need buffs. > > in PVP they are noob killers for players who are really bad, but a good player will kite them.The baddies want them nerfed because they don't want to put effort to conter the reaper. > > Also why shouldn't you have to put in your build in modifications? why not put efford into learning to counter them? learn 2 kite your a thief you got better mobility than i ever can.Your S/D can teleport to me immob and run away and hide till reaper shroud is down.You shouldn't have auto win against any class. > > Why is this thread still going on, when it's talking about other Professions? Also why is a thread like this even active. It's some emo speculation thread. > > Because the baddies want reaper to be nerfed, even though every suggestion they made will gut reaper and make it trash tier in pvp and pve. > > Everyone knows anyways reapers would have to be carried to get far. I main(ed) reaper, dude. I just main(ed) thief before I did reaper. And I play soulbeast on the side because I know it's also stupidly easy to play and does very high damage. I've literally posted about this in the past, and have said the same for **all three** professions. Hell, I'm notorious in the thief community for shooting down suggestions because such ideas would be OP. Like how I warned ANet about how the Deadeye being a stealth-sniper/allowing the existence of stealth-based play would at worst overpowered and at best extremely frustrating. And look where we are. There's so much more to gameplay than DPS numbers. PvE/Raids will **never** be balanced by its definition, especially in their current implementation with timers and whatnot. People need to stop caring and pretending like it affects their capacity to do the content because it's literally impossible to balance the game this way. All PvE "balance" is is an optimization problem. There at any given time will always be only one best answer, and all the toxic elitist people in the community will continue to act the way they do so long as one exists. This is why we had people being booted from dungeons and so on. It's more of a community problem than a balance one. Which is why I never had a problem into the "hard" matchups on reaper to begin with and why I post on this subsection on how to get people to improve their gameplay. Which is why my advice on how to win these matchups and actually play reaper properly helped boost a number of people on this subsection to start winning. Just ask Eremite who moved to Top-50 within two years on the "weak" reaper if I know what I'm talking about. A lot of people have followed what I've said and seen instant improvement. There was a point in time where I could 1v1 or XvX anything in the game on reaper. It was a challenging but very consistent spec with lots of agency over how it performed or won/lost a given fight. This patch resulting in the reaper losing all its agency and it becomes either a stomp-or-be-stomped spec. That's not fun or healthy for the game at all, and the learning curve on the reaper is lower than it's ever been because of its simple and low-agency high-impact play patterns right now. It's literally the same thing that happened to thief's EW change that made it super-busted in PvE and made DA/thief terrible/inconsistent/lose agency in the PvP modes. It's the same reason why I'm not advocating for any buffs to the thief right now in sPvP despite its overall horrible performance since all of the agency of the class has been stripped to belong to other professions based on the current meta (where S/D resides, despite being mediocre as a weapon set overall in any context except the current PvP meta). And you do realize your logic by not talking about other professions is flawed, right? Because if everyone followed your principle of not talking about the other professions in game-wide endemic problems - and saying "yes, our profession is part of the problem, too," when discussing balance - nothing would ever get nerfed and feedback couldn't possibly be valuable, because nobody would be allowed to complain without some kind of basis for argument, while somehow also managing to avoid stating something is busted despite playing the class. I want a fair and fun game where skill matters. If I get outplayed, I deserve to lose; if I outplay my opponent, they deserve to lose. It's that simple. I'm not here to play advanced rock-paper-scissors or a strategy game. The people claiming reaper is currently even close to anything but low-skill right now are the baddies you refer to. Want to make reaper better and up the skill requirement? Cut the damage, return some consistency, and bring its sustain options back in line. If you want to fix necro in PvE, PvE needs to change by rewarding necros for doing what they do well (soft CC/denial/corruption) or some tweaks to a few coefficients made PvE-specific to bump up their damage marginally. The 300 ferocity gain seen this last patch isn't much in the grand scheme of things (~10% damage overall), and the RO quickness changes affect nobody running quickness comps as it is. > @"LinhZeri.6412" said: > Im just curious why the skills themselves not changed with increased speed and put all of the viability in 1 single grandmaster skill to make the other two completely irreleavent.. its quite odd balancing if you ask me. Blighters boon needs help terribly bad and no reason deathly chill still hasnt returned to the first version (BEFORE THEY BUFFED IT FOR CONDI) simply make deathly chill do the same thing fear has just at lower damage or just make it do something else while chill is on target like reduced damage (Like death magics poison version....) . Heck even just make chill have its own dmg with the trait on doing half the amount burn but with no stacking capabilities . to be honest all professions should have themes to what they offer, first skill being offensive, second defense, last utility... this way it would make balancing quiet easier on how mcuh stuff has. talking to no one here who balances the game so all these ideas are for nothing lol. > > Either it's lazy implementation or because of PvE where they wanted to allow reapers to swap into shroud to take advantage of the effects of quickness combined with GS. As for DC, it was changed largely for PvE because any other profession applying chill afterwards would cancel the DoT component. I don't think they'd do DR on chill because it'd be too strong with various combined DR options and would also make BB a bit redundant, as both are defensive/sustain traits. They could make DC better by putting more chill access on the reaper via its RSAA chain. Multiple stacks gets out of hand because of 5 -> 4 whirl combos and the likes which bursts people so quickly, but there's not enough frequent sustained application of chill to make 1 stack worthwhile, pretty much forcing Dhuumfire+DC, but neither of these are ever really allowed to stack together. Plus power reaper has had its damage nearly doubled since they DC nerfs, so even at this point it's hard to even justify condi reaper as a whole when power just hits so much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 20, 2018 Author Share Posted September 20, 2018 Pretty much> @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. > > > > > > Which is exactly where we were before. Or even prior to that, before the SR nerfs. > > > > > > A lot of professions do way too much damage for no reason now. It's not exclusive to reaper. And I've voiced my concerns over it occurring with soulbeast, spellbreaker/warrior, mirage, daredevil/deadeye, weaver, scourge, and now reaper. > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. > > > > > > > > Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. > > > > > > > > Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? > > > > > > > > > > Dude, please. I could have torn you a new one in the thief subsection if I wanted to because most of what you've said there is nonsense, and even a lot of what you've said in this subsection has also been interpreted as such by other necros. If you want to talk trash you should at least prove some competency and understanding of the class. > > > > > > At the highest level of play the reaper only saw drops in consistency and overall reduction of efficacy in the meta this last patch. It saw massive nerfs in WvW consistency for both blobbing and roaming because of a number of new inter-woven dependencies with in SR and gear choices. > > > > > > The **only** things reaper got improved upon was a minor amount of damage in PvE and easier kills into unskilled/unprepared players where the matchup already favored the reaper to begin with. This patch made its counters harder to deal with and shifted the reaper from something you went from out-playing as/against to something you either have the build to deal with or generally otherwise instantly die. > > > > > > Yes, soulbeast is overtuned AF right now, and arguably just as easy as the reaper is. That does not excuse the reaper or any other profession (like scourge, spellbreaker, firebrand, holo in WvW, SA deadeye, etc.) from being mindless and binary, either. > > > > And your bias seems more strong than ever to get reaper nerfed. > > > > Yes i'm not the best thief i know that, i'm learning in pvp i wholy admit that, but this topic is for pve reaper.You just want reapers to be bad in pvp because you don't know how to kill one. > > > > Why shouldn't they be nerfed? > > > > prove? prove what? ok i'l bite > > > > They sacrificed sustain for dmg so you nerf the dmg you kill them > > THe dmg they got buffed at was not that minute it went from 28.000-30850 or somewhere around that, making reaper pretty close to where its supposed to be now by only around 2150-3150-dps average. > > > > Before this they were sub par in pve and for that they should not be nerfed, because they are still slightly below others and need buffs. > > > > in PVP they are noob killers for players who are really bad, but a good player will kite them.The baddies want them nerfed because they don't want to put effort to conter the reaper. > > > > Also why shouldn't you have to put in your build in modifications? why not put efford into learning to counter them? learn 2 kite your a thief you got better mobility than i ever can.Your S/D can teleport to me immob and run away and hide till reaper shroud is down.You shouldn't have auto win against any class. > > > > Why is this thread still going on, when it's talking about other Professions? Also why is a thread like this even active. It's some emo speculation thread. > > > > Because the baddies want reaper to be nerfed, even though every suggestion they made will gut reaper and make it trash tier in pvp and pve. > > > > Everyone knows anyways reapers would have to be carried to get far. > > I main(ed) reaper, dude. I just main(ed) thief before I did reaper. And I play soulbeast on the side because I know it's also stupidly easy to play and does very high damage. > I've literally posted about this in the past, and have said the same for **all three** professions. > > Hell, I'm notorious in the thief community for shooting down suggestions because such ideas would be OP. Like how I warned ANet about how the Deadeye being a stealth-sniper/allowing the existence of stealth-based play would at worst overpowered and at best extremely frustrating. And look where we are. > > There's so much more to gameplay than DPS numbers. PvE/Raids will **never** be balanced by its definition, especially in their current implementation with timers and whatnot. People need to stop caring and pretending like it affects their capacity to do the content because it's literally impossible to balance the game this way. All PvE "balance" is is an optimization problem. There at any given time will always be only one best answer, and all the toxic elitist people in the community will continue to act the way they do so long as one exists. This is why we had people being booted from dungeons and so on. It's more of a community problem than a balance one Me:You sound a bit like obtenna about numbers thing.It would be irrelevant as long as its not a huge number difference between classes.30850-34k yeah i think we can maybe get away with it, but before this it was 6-8k which gave elitists much reason. > Which is why I never had a problem into the "hard" matchups on reaper to begin with and why I post on this subsection on how to get people to improve their gameplay. > Which is why my advice on how to win these matchups and actually play reaper properly helped boost a number of people on this subsection to start winning. > > Just ask Eremite who moved to Top-50 within two years on the "weak" reaper if I know what I'm talking about. A lot of people have followed what I've said and seen instant improvement. > > There was a point in time where I could 1v1 or XvX anything in the game on reaper. It was a challenging but very consistent spec with lots of agency over how it performed or won/lost a given fight. Me:I'm kinda rusty as a reaper in pvp, so don't ask me.I know though that before the path of fire exp, it was definitely a lot easier to kill people, but i was never the best at pvp to begin with, i care more about pve and WVW. > This patch resulting in the reaper losing all its agency and it becomes either a stomp-or-be-stomped spec. That's not fun or healthy for the game at all, and the learning curve on the reaper is lower than it's ever been because of its simple and low-agency high-impact play patterns right now. Me:This is a problem with more than 1 class, and its hard to reverse with the amount of ccs and buffs and damage.its become about burst.I actually like pvp when its not instant burst down and you have to hit multiple times.Actually:i don't think thiefs hit too hard, as it takes a bunch of hits usually to down people, and feels about right on S/D as to be not too gimmicky and cheap with 1 hits, but thats me. Why not ask for meaningful changes in the way skills work so it provides a fun entertaining thing about it? > It's literally the same thing that happened to thief's EW change that made it super-busted in PvE and made DA/thief terrible/inconsistent/lose agency in the PvP modes. > It's the same reason why I'm not advocating for any buffs to the thief right now in sPvP despite its overall horrible performance since all of the agency of the class has been stripped to belong to other professions based on the current meta (where S/D resides, despite being mediocre as a weapon set overall in any context except the current PvP meta). Me:What is EW? > And you do realize your logic by not talking about other professions is flawed, right? Me:I talked about thief earlier, but this is the necro forum, and if we aren't careful the mods might give us a warning.We have to be careful and not derail topics too much.Besides each class has its own issues, and necro is plagued with issues on its own that need fixing. > Because if everyone followed your principle of not talking about the other professions in game-wide endemic problems - and saying "yes, our profession is part of the problem, too," when discussing balance - nothing would ever get nerfed and feedback couldn't possibly be valuable, because nobody would be allowed to complain without some kind of basis for argument, while somehow also managing to avoid stating something is busted despite playing the class. Me:I admitted in a thread that scourge was problematic, in fact i said the skill system that had defensive and offensive skills stuck together, was probably a nightmare to balance out. > I want a fair and fun game where skill matters. If I get outplayed, I deserve to lose; if I outplay my opponent, they deserve to lose. It's that simple. I'm not here to play advanced rock-paper-scissors or a strategy game. Me:So do i, but reapers need a whole list of things to be balanced to be good in pvp don't they? i mean they don't survive long if you snipe them, they don't have mobility and they are super vulnerable to cc. > The people claiming reaper is currently even close to anything but low-skill right now are the baddies you refer to. Want to make reaper better and up the skill requirement? Cut the damage, return some consistency, and bring its sustain options back in line. Me:Not going to happen, because the killing of damage would kill reaper in pve.I would love to have long duration reaper shroud, but it would mean nerfing dmg too much to the point where it was before.Also some of the people who want nerf aren't asking for sustain, in fact a lot of them are asking not just nerfs to dmg, but to chill.Balancing the shroud and damage is a nightmare as you mentioned, and reaper at the moment sacrificed its sustain for damage.Also:Other classes have high sustain and damage atm.If people came in here and said something alike:I want to improve reaper by this and this, it will make him balanced this way in pvp but also make him survive longer in pvp and it would be balanced then the reaper community would be ok with it, but if someone says:Nerf damage cut it in half nerf chill, then no of course they won't be ok. > If you want to fix necro in PvE, PvE needs to change by rewarding necros for doing what they do well (soft CC/denial/corruption) or some tweaks to a few coefficients made PvE-specific to bump up their damage marginally. The 300 ferocity gain seen this last patch isn't much in the grand scheme of things (~10% damage overall), and the RO quickness changes affect nobody running quickness comps as it is. Me:Thats impossible, because that would mean giving raid bosses boons to corrupt.If they did, reaper still doesn't posess as much boon corrupt as scourge, but i also really enjoy being a burst build with reaper.What i like about the 10% dmg even if its not much, is the fact that its being balanced out with:i have to sacrifice sustain for dmg, thats a very meaningful thing in the game.Problem is:If we have long duration reaper shroud, which i enjoy having in pve, it would have to be nerfed so hard that it would be only good for open pve and fractals, and for raids we would probably be back to being autokicked. > > @"LinhZeri.6412" said: > > Im just curious why the skills themselves not changed with increased speed and put all of the viability in 1 single grandmaster skill to make the other two completely irreleavent.. its quite odd balancing if you ask me. Blighters boon needs help terribly bad and no reason deathly chill still hasnt returned to the first version (BEFORE THEY BUFFED IT FOR CONDI) simply make deathly chill do the same thing fear has just at lower damage or just make it do something else while chill is on target like reduced damage (Like death magics poison version....) . Heck even just make chill have its own dmg with the trait on doing half the amount burn but with no stacking capabilities . to be honest all professions should have themes to what they offer, first skill being offensive, second defense, last utility... this way it would make balancing quiet easier on how mcuh stuff has. talking to no one here who balances the game so all these ideas are for nothing lol. > > > > > > Either it's lazy implementation or because of PvE where they wanted to allow reapers to swap into shroud to take advantage of the effects of quickness combined with GS. > As for DC, it was changed largely for PvE because any other profession applying chill afterwards would cancel the DoT component. I don't think they'd do DR on chill because it'd be too strong with various combined DR options and would also make BB a bit redundant, as both are defensive/sustain traits. > > They could make DC better by putting more chill access on the reaper via its RSAA chain. Multiple stacks gets out of hand because of 5 -> 4 whirl combos and the likes which bursts people so quickly, but there's not enough frequent sustained application of chill to make 1 stack worthwhile, pretty much forcing Dhuumfire+DC, but neither of these are ever really allowed to stack together. Me:I think people in pvp would probably cry hard if they did that.Wasn't there people crying years ago about chill so much that it got nerfed really hard and became bleed? heard it was cried about a lot. > Plus power reaper has had its damage nearly doubled since they DC nerfs, so even at this point it's hard to even justify condi reaper as a whole when power just hits so much harder. Me:Pretty much summed i up.People been crying a lot about condis, and Anet decided in their wisdom to shift to power meta instead.First it was scourge then thieves then i don't remember then mirages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dceptaconroy.7928 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 What a thread title, goading a nerf, really. Clueless points. As pointless as my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Pretty much> @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > Reaper isn't braindead.Easy? not really because they are super glassy and have to be carried and run away to not be focused.They don't have much in terms of escape or mobility, and can be killed fairly easy.Good at stomping people who don't know how to play against them, but there is still a lot of switching between modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without taking a side here; saying reaper's not easy is some massive self-cheating you've got going in there. The damage needs some toning down either way. I have no issue with utility buffs. > > > > > > > > Which is exactly where we were before. Or even prior to that, before the SR nerfs. > > > > > > > > A lot of professions do way too much damage for no reason now. It's not exclusive to reaper. And I've voiced my concerns over it occurring with soulbeast, spellbreaker/warrior, mirage, daredevil/deadeye, weaver, scourge, and now reaper. > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > But its true its not as easy to survive now, because our shroud is part of our tankiness, and damage combined, so because it disappears almost immediately, it also means we don't have much cover for dmg, and it has a 10 sec cd.Also:we more often leave it half energy or quarter energy even, because we want to use.health doesnt' equate to tankiness only, its not the same as having invulns and such.Also, i get hit a lot more in melee range, and more often to be focused and hit by multi aoes or adds. > > > > > > > > > > Also i bet you never played a necro, or you wouldn't be saying that, because we need that damage to be competitive in pve and pvp, and we need more buffs to be competitive in pvp. > > > > > > > > > > Yet another baddie noob bronze player qqing about reaper.Where did the wittle bad reaper touch you mr ranger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, please. I could have torn you a new one in the thief subsection if I wanted to because most of what you've said there is nonsense, and even a lot of what you've said in this subsection has also been interpreted as such by other necros. If you want to talk trash you should at least prove some competency and understanding of the class. > > > > > > > > At the highest level of play the reaper only saw drops in consistency and overall reduction of efficacy in the meta this last patch. It saw massive nerfs in WvW consistency for both blobbing and roaming because of a number of new inter-woven dependencies with in SR and gear choices. > > > > > > > > The **only** things reaper got improved upon was a minor amount of damage in PvE and easier kills into unskilled/unprepared players where the matchup already favored the reaper to begin with. This patch made its counters harder to deal with and shifted the reaper from something you went from out-playing as/against to something you either have the build to deal with or generally otherwise instantly die. > > > > > > > > Yes, soulbeast is overtuned AF right now, and arguably just as easy as the reaper is. That does not excuse the reaper or any other profession (like scourge, spellbreaker, firebrand, holo in WvW, SA deadeye, etc.) from being mindless and binary, either. > > > > > > And your bias seems more strong than ever to get reaper nerfed. > > > > > > Yes i'm not the best thief i know that, i'm learning in pvp i wholy admit that, but this topic is for pve reaper.You just want reapers to be bad in pvp because you don't know how to kill one. > > > > > > Why shouldn't they be nerfed? > > > > > > prove? prove what? ok i'l bite > > > > > > They sacrificed sustain for dmg so you nerf the dmg you kill them > > > THe dmg they got buffed at was not that minute it went from 28.000-30850 or somewhere around that, making reaper pretty close to where its supposed to be now by only around 2150-3150-dps average. > > > > > > Before this they were sub par in pve and for that they should not be nerfed, because they are still slightly below others and need buffs. > > > > > > in PVP they are noob killers for players who are really bad, but a good player will kite them.The baddies want them nerfed because they don't want to put effort to conter the reaper. > > > > > > Also why shouldn't you have to put in your build in modifications? why not put efford into learning to counter them? learn 2 kite your a thief you got better mobility than i ever can.Your S/D can teleport to me immob and run away and hide till reaper shroud is down.You shouldn't have auto win against any class. > > > > > > Why is this thread still going on, when it's talking about other Professions? Also why is a thread like this even active. It's some emo speculation thread. > > > > > > Because the baddies want reaper to be nerfed, even though every suggestion they made will gut reaper and make it trash tier in pvp and pve. > > > > > > Everyone knows anyways reapers would have to be carried to get far. > > > > I main(ed) reaper, dude. I just main(ed) thief before I did reaper. And I play soulbeast on the side because I know it's also stupidly easy to play and does very high damage. > > I've literally posted about this in the past, and have said the same for **all three** professions. > > > > Hell, I'm notorious in the thief community for shooting down suggestions because such ideas would be OP. Like how I warned ANet about how the Deadeye being a stealth-sniper/allowing the existence of stealth-based play would at worst overpowered and at best extremely frustrating. And look where we are. > > > > There's so much more to gameplay than DPS numbers. PvE/Raids will **never** be balanced by its definition, especially in their current implementation with timers and whatnot. People need to stop caring and pretending like it affects their capacity to do the content because it's literally impossible to balance the game this way. All PvE "balance" is is an optimization problem. There at any given time will always be only one best answer, and all the toxic elitist people in the community will continue to act the way they do so long as one exists. This is why we had people being booted from dungeons and so on. It's more of a community problem than a balance one > > Me:You sound a bit like obtenna about numbers thing.It would be irrelevant as long as its not a huge number difference between classes.30850-34k yeah i think we can maybe get away with it, but before this it was 6-8k which gave elitists much reason. > Which is exactly what I said. People have done tons of raids with intentionally-bad comps, off-meta comps, and so on. Optimization is not necessary to complete the content. If you balance around PvE number-crunching, you end up with horrible gameplay and imbalanced competitive modes. It's this way in every game. > > Which is why I never had a problem into the "hard" matchups on reaper to begin with and why I post on this subsection on how to get people to improve their gameplay. > > Which is why my advice on how to win these matchups and actually play reaper properly helped boost a number of people on this subsection to start winning. > > > > Just ask Eremite who moved to Top-50 within two years on the "weak" reaper if I know what I'm talking about. A lot of people have followed what I've said and seen instant improvement. > > > > There was a point in time where I could 1v1 or XvX anything in the game on reaper. It was a challenging but very consistent spec with lots of agency over how it performed or won/lost a given fight. > > Me:I'm kinda rusty as a reaper in pvp, so don't ask me.I know though that before the path of fire exp, it was definitely a lot easier to kill people, but i was never the best at pvp to begin with, i care more about pve and WVW. You were literally just accusing me of not even playing reaper and calling people baddies. That's why I retaliated; you're actually being the toxic person here and don't have the experience or knowledge, or proof of the two to back up what you're saying. I don't care if you're not even good. There's just zero reason to blatantly insult other people, especially if they're not even being belligerent or can't be disproven. > > This patch resulting in the reaper losing all its agency and it becomes either a stomp-or-be-stomped spec. That's not fun or healthy for the game at all, and the learning curve on the reaper is lower than it's ever been because of its simple and low-agency high-impact play patterns right now. > > Me:This is a problem with more than 1 class, and its hard to reverse with the amount of ccs and buffs and damage.its become about burst.I actually like pvp when its not instant burst down and you have to hit multiple times.Actually:i don't think thiefs hit too hard, as it takes a bunch of hits usually to down people, and feels about right on S/D as to be not too gimmicky and cheap with 1 hits, but thats me. > Why not ask for meaningful changes in the way skills work so it provides a fun entertaining thing about it? That's why I followed-up about reaper's damage output being a problem on more than just the reaper. S/D is supposed to be a tempo-based kit, and the sole reason it's the top pick for thief right now is because it hard-counters the current meta thanks to FS/LS double unblockable, the recent buffs to core thief's evasion uptime/Acrobatics, and also requires very little skill to play successfully into said meta. Every other kit on thief, outside of SA rifle for WvW, is pretty much hard-countered by everything. I stopped playing D/D power thief (and maining reaper) because it went from being disadvantaged into every single matchup in the game (winnable by playing a magnitude better than the opponent with next to no mistakes) to having literally unwinnable matchups depending on builds. Meaningful change is something I've advocated for for a very long time. Unfortunately the changes we saw to reaper this patch were not meaningful in the sense that they did not improve the playability or consistency of the profession, not did they improve the "fun factor" for its opponents, and in a lot of cases, did not improve the "fun factor" for the reaper in the competitive modes. It's extremely binary and it either can faceroll stomp or dies without much say in a fight. That's not fun. If I wanted a power fantasy, I'd be playing an over-the-top Asian RPG, not GW2, which launched as something more subtle and was designed to have simpler skills and fewer of them, but with more thought-provoking play patterns and combos. ANet needs to design skills for PvP first based on what they do and how they do it, and then tweak small things for PvE accordingly. If you nerf the top-end of coefficients by 10% and buff the bottom-end by 10% - which isn't game-breaking - a 30k-40k disparity moves from a 10k split to a 3k one. If you don't design for the PvP modes, you end up with stuff like Mirage Cloak or Scourge's asinine amount of corruption, which are downright busted in PvP/WvW and negligible in purpose in PvE. > > It's literally the same thing that happened to thief's EW change that made it super-busted in PvE and made DA/thief terrible/inconsistent/lose agency in the PvP modes. > > It's the same reason why I'm not advocating for any buffs to the thief right now in sPvP despite its overall horrible performance since all of the agency of the class has been stripped to belong to other professions based on the current meta (where S/D resides, despite being mediocre as a weapon set overall in any context except the current PvP meta). > > Me:What is EW? Exposed Weakness, trait in DA for thief. It used to provide the thief a 10% bonus when the target had a condition, and now provides the thief a 2% increase in damage per unique condition on the target. There are 14 unique conditions. It made the thief in the PvP modes deal less damage and have less control over its damage (because players rarely sustain 5 unique conditions in competitive), and then made the thief in PvE deal absolutely stupid amounts of damage, because one trait in group play where conditions are easily capped resulted in an increase in 28% damage, stacking multiplicatively with many other sources of % damage modifers the thief has, yielding what ended up something close to a 50% increase in damage dealt. This is what I refer to as agency. The reaper has less control now despite being numerically stronger in a vacuum. Its counters got harder and its easy matchups are borderline faceroll. Putting the agency of a fight in one participant in PvP defeats the entire purpose of PvP as a concept. > > And you do realize your logic by not talking about other professions is flawed, right? > > Me:I talked about thief earlier, but this is the necro forum, and if we aren't careful the mods might give us a warning.We have to be careful and not derail topics too much.Besides each class has its own issues, and necro is plagued with issues on its own that need fixing. So when you badmouth other people for playing a ranger despite giving feedback on the necro, that's okay? > > Because if everyone followed your principle of not talking about the other professions in game-wide endemic problems - and saying "yes, our profession is part of the problem, too," when discussing balance - nothing would ever get nerfed and feedback couldn't possibly be valuable, because nobody would be allowed to complain without some kind of basis for argument, while somehow also managing to avoid stating something is busted despite playing the class. > > Me:I admitted in a thread that scourge was problematic, in fact i said the skill system that had defensive and offensive skills stuck together, was probably a nightmare to balance out. Scourge is only problematic because it can spam AoE corruption and use weapon/utiltiy skills while also affecting the fight during Sand Shroud,, which tends to also be more AoE corruption and sustain. > > I want a fair and fun game where skill matters. If I get outplayed, I deserve to lose; if I outplay my opponent, they deserve to lose. It's that simple. I'm not here to play advanced rock-paper-scissors or a strategy game. > > Me:So do i, but reapers need a whole list of things to be balanced to be good in pvp don't they? i mean they don't survive long if you snipe them, they don't have mobility and they are super vulnerable to cc. They don't survive as long because people demanded they deal enough damage to be competitive in PvE. Pre-SR-rework (the first time), reaper had more than double the durability it has now with way more combat flexibility. When people talk about SoS, the degen rate, and so on (CV ICD, BB nerfs, the list goes on), this is what they're referring to. Fact of the matter is that reaper **has** been good (or good enough, even) historically in the PvP modes. For a while, four of the top ten players were reapers. People just refused to play it well or cover some of the few weaknesses it had with smarter trait/util selections, and then blamed the class for being weak because they got styled on by things like Dash D/P Daredevil played by a good player, which was a hard matchup and easy to beat bad reapers on thanks to the nature of UC and pre-nerf Daredevil. > > The people claiming reaper is currently even close to anything but low-skill right now are the baddies you refer to. Want to make reaper better and up the skill requirement? Cut the damage, return some consistency, and bring its sustain options back in line. > > Me:Not going to happen, because the killing of damage would kill reaper in pve.I would love to have long duration reaper shroud, but it would mean nerfing dmg too much to the point where it was before.Also some of the people who want nerf aren't asking for sustain, in fact a lot of them are asking not just nerfs to dmg, but to chill.Balancing the shroud and damage is a nightmare as you mentioned, and reaper at the moment sacrificed its sustain for damage.Also:Other classes have high sustain and damage atm.If people came in here and said something alike:I want to improve reaper by this and this, it will make him balanced this way in pvp but also make him survive longer in pvp and it would be balanced then the reaper community would be ok with it, but if someone says:Nerf damage cut it in half nerf chill, then no of course they won't be ok. > There are always stupid suggestions, but it's pretty obvious reaper does too much burst damage right now, mostly due to the changes to RO. And the VP changes were again just unnecessary. PvE coefficient tweaks would have made a lot more sense. Now there's no purpose to running the Valkyrie Amulet in sPvP (to overcome its nerfed sustain) because VP+DD doesn't even give 100% crit when maxed out, and starts the reaper at a way lower base power measure than before. Or any combination of high-vitality gear configurations for WvW, for that matter. So what really changed here? The PvP consistency was gutted for an unhealthy, un-fun build with reduced build diversity and fewer playable contexts, for a whopping 300 ferocity for raid environments. That's a pretty big tradeoff... > > If you want to fix necro in PvE, PvE needs to change by rewarding necros for doing what they do well (soft CC/denial/corruption) or some tweaks to a few coefficients made PvE-specific to bump up their damage marginally. The 300 ferocity gain seen this last patch isn't much in the grand scheme of things (~10% damage overall), and the RO quickness changes affect nobody running quickness comps as it is. > > Me:Thats impossible, because that would mean giving raid bosses boons to corrupt.If they did, reaper still doesn't posess as much boon corrupt as scourge, but i also really enjoy being a burst build with reaper.What i like about the 10% dmg even if its not much, is the fact that its being balanced out with:i have to sacrifice sustain for dmg, thats a very meaningful thing in the game.Problem is:If we have long duration reaper shroud, which i enjoy having in pve, it would have to be nerfed so hard that it would be only good for open pve and fractals, and for raids we would probably be back to being autokicked. So TL;DR nerf scourge's corruption to be normalized with every other necro spec, and then nerf the powercreep damage from the rest of the game which tons of people are already asking for (like reverting EW?). I don't see how this is "impossible" at all. And again, the auto-kick part is a community problem and general raid elistist mentality. As of before PoF's launch, the raiding population is the smallest population in the game - even less so than PvP/WvW. To hold the entire spec hostage in the other modes because of what largely constitutes a player-made problem, caused because of ANet's bad encounter design, is pretty disingenuous to the scope of the issue, and still doesn't justify calling people "baddies," especially if you're not even playing under the same contexts, which have way different rules. Reaper already dealt a ton of burst damage, anyways, and the 300 ferocity isn't changing much in that respect, considering Soul Spiral was already really easy to get to hit for like 20k, which is basically a huge-radious AoE backstab while still having 50%+ damage reduction. That's where the "reaper is easy" comments are coming from. It simply is right now. > > > @"LinhZeri.6412" said: > > > > Im just curious why the skills themselves not changed with increased speed and put all of the viability in 1 single grandmaster skill to make the other two completely irreleavent.. its quite odd balancing if you ask me. Blighters boon needs help terribly bad and no reason deathly chill still hasnt returned to the first version (BEFORE THEY BUFFED IT FOR CONDI) simply make deathly chill do the same thing fear has just at lower damage or just make it do something else while chill is on target like reduced damage (Like death magics poison version....) . Heck even just make chill have its own dmg with the trait on doing half the amount burn but with no stacking capabilities . to be honest all professions should have themes to what they offer, first skill being offensive, second defense, last utility... this way it would make balancing quiet easier on how mcuh stuff has. talking to no one here who balances the game so all these ideas are for nothing lol. > > > > > > > > > > Either it's lazy implementation or because of PvE where they wanted to allow reapers to swap into shroud to take advantage of the effects of quickness combined with GS. > > As for DC, it was changed largely for PvE because any other profession applying chill afterwards would cancel the DoT component. I don't think they'd do DR on chill because it'd be too strong with various combined DR options and would also make BB a bit redundant, as both are defensive/sustain traits. > > > > They could make DC better by putting more chill access on the reaper via its RSAA chain. Multiple stacks gets out of hand because of 5 -> 4 whirl combos and the likes which bursts people so quickly, but there's not enough frequent sustained application of chill to make 1 stack worthwhile, pretty much forcing Dhuumfire+DC, but neither of these are ever really allowed to stack together. > > Me:I think people in pvp would probably cry hard if they did that.Wasn't there people crying years ago about chill so much that it got nerfed really hard and became bleed? heard it was cried about a lot. Most of the people complaining about it were necromancers because the trait's damage component immediately got removed if another source applied chill to stack it in duration. So it was made useless in basically any encounter with more than one reaper or players with lots of chill access, like MH sword rev using Precision Strike, which at the time, was also the best DPS/burst skill in the game with tri-hit projectiles, and it obviously has a very short cooldown. There were some people who complained because Chill was hard to remove (a number of condi cleanses targeted specifically DoT/Movement conditions at the time, and not many affected Chill as it was supposed to be strong, which is true, and **beta** HoT reaper did way too much damage on chill DoT (I recall several ~2k damage ticks, which for something that only stacks in duration is really, really high), but the bulk of the complaints after DC was made a reasonable number were form necromancers, and for good reason. But hardly the narrative you're either spinning or read. > > > Plus power reaper has had its damage nearly doubled since they DC nerfs, so even at this point it's hard to even justify condi reaper as a whole when power just hits so much harder. > > Me:Pretty much summed i up.People been crying a lot about condis, and Anet decided in their wisdom to shift to power meta instead.First it was scourge then thieves then i don't remember then mirages. But condition reaper **was** a problem, and condi builds were problems historically due to the gear combinations and high condi burst damage introduced later on. You could land almost 14k damage bleed ticks (and conditions ignore armor, by the way) in one combo on reaper, with what amounted to around 65k EHP. It's just that with all the damage buffs to power, power reaper is one-shotting people with the same combos (albeit being much squishier), just in a different form of damage, and now, in less time. In summary: Don't be a total jerk to people giving their feedback, especially if you're not in a position to talk down to them. It makes you look worse, us as a whole look worse, and removes the validity from anything you're trying to point at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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