Deaths Judgment

[Alehin.3746]

> @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> I am atrocious on thief and even I can beat a trailblazer necro easily with a bit of kiting.

 

The same way any "atrocious" trailblazer necro player could kill anyone with the right setup. i'm sorry dude but i dont see how a class fully geared to do damage (11khp and 1k toughness) should be doing less damage than that with a skill that takes ~20s to "charge up".

 

>I am not saying that condi damage isnt broken because it is, but thats a seperate **issue**.

 

DE's damage is not an issue. By the time DE have enough malice stacks to do that, you can find cover or even kill them if you have enough mobility. DJ can be **blocked**, **dodged**, miss if they're **blind** and you can even get out of range if you have enough mobility, because they have to be kneeling when casting it. I'm pretty sure you had plenty of time/tools to deal with it, but you just didnt know how.

 

Next time, try using Sand Swell and CPC against them. Or dont get off tag, that works too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @Chaba.5410 said:

> > @katniss.6735 said:

> > I guess you guys don't know how to play your thieves, because a thief can be right beside you and fire this without anything to show up as you're describing. You see the thief too late in this situation. I was rezzing someone when I was insta'd. The 1500 range one is easy to get away with, too, because it can just be another skill firing toward you amongst the other million people attacking your team. The damage is extremely high.

>

> I suspect the majority of players haven't come across thieves who actually know how to pull this off. Ran across it myself earlier today. I had just come out of stealth roughly 5 seconds before his shot. He had gotten malice stacks off some ambient creature and there wasn't any tell for it.

 

> @Alehin.3746 said:

> > @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> > I am atrocious on thief and even I can beat a trailblazer necro easily with a bit of kiting.

>

> The same way any "atrocious" trailblazer necro player could kill anyone with the right setup. i'm sorry dude but i dont see how a class fully geared to do damage (11khp and 1k toughness) should be doing less damage than that with a skill that takes ~20s to "charge up".

>

> >I am not saying that condi damage isnt broken because it is, but thats a seperate **issue**.

>

> DE's damage is not an issue. By the time DE have enough malice stacks to do that, you can find cover or even kill them if you have enough mobility. DJ can be **blocked**, **dodged**, miss if they're **blind** and you can even get out of range if you have enough mobility, because they have to be kneeling when casting it. I'm pretty sure you had plenty of time/tools to deal with it, but you just didnt know how.

>

> Next time, try using Sand Swell and CPC against them. Or dont get off tag, that works too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Just to add to this, when the thief enters #5 s kneel mode they sometimes have a voice over saying something like "all I need is 1 breath, 1 shot" or "you're in my sights" there are so many tell tail signs and give aways

 

[Alehin.3746]

> @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

 

>Sure if you just stand there you are gonna get condi bombed in a few seconds.

 

Just like you "stood there" and died. hahaha

[Ubi.4136]

> @Cirrion.8951 said:

> > @Dawdler.8521 said:

> > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > @Ubi.4136 said:

> > > > The bonus damage from malice is ONLY supposed to be against the target that is marked. BUT, I have heard players saying that they can stack malice on ambient mobs, not change their mark, and still get the bonus damage against the first player that happens to run by.

> > >

> > > Yes, it seems bugged to me. AFAIK it only works with Deaths Judgement. Pretty sure it isn't intended that a wall can be marked to build malice stacks with either. This reminds me of necros being able to use Epidemic off an oil pot in the past.

> > Ah well *that* explains the times I've seen the mark go ping and then less than a second later get hit for 25-30K damage.

> >

>

> No really. If the DE has built up malice against an ambient or a wall they'd lose it as soon as they mark you. In order to use this trick they have to not mark you. Marking you would reset their malice.

 

That's just it, they are NOT changing their mark to the player. Build stacks on a wall/ambient mob, player runs up and takes the full damage as if they were marked (but they aren't). I watched a deadeye do this last night by Umber. They were using the deer nearby to get stacks and then getting the bonus damage vs. players without marking the players.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Ubi.4136 said:

> > @Cirrion.8951 said:

> > > @Dawdler.8521 said:

> > > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > > @Ubi.4136 said:

> > > > > The bonus damage from malice is ONLY supposed to be against the target that is marked. BUT, I have heard players saying that they can stack malice on ambient mobs, not change their mark, and still get the bonus damage against the first player that happens to run by.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it seems bugged to me. AFAIK it only works with Deaths Judgement. Pretty sure it isn't intended that a wall can be marked to build malice stacks with either. This reminds me of necros being able to use Epidemic off an oil pot in the past.

> > > Ah well *that* explains the times I've seen the mark go ping and then less than a second later get hit for 25-30K damage.

> > >

> >

> > No really. If the DE has built up malice against an ambient or a wall they'd lose it as soon as they mark you. In order to use this trick they have to not mark you. Marking you would reset their malice.

>

> That's just it, they are NOT changing their mark to the player. Build stacks on a wall/ambient mob, player runs up and takes the full damage as if they were marked (but they aren't). I watched a deadeye do this last night by Umber. They were using the deer nearby to get stacks and then getting the bonus damage vs. players without marking the players.

 

If that’s the case then it’s a bug and needs to be fixed since Malice is supposed to only effect the Marked Targets but the wording of DJ is strange, it would be nice if a Dev would comment on this.

[Cirrion.8951]

> @Ubi.4136 said:

> > @Cirrion.8951 said:

> > > @Dawdler.8521 said:

> > > > @Chaba.5410 said:

> > > > > @Ubi.4136 said:

> > > > > The bonus damage from malice is ONLY supposed to be against the target that is marked. BUT, I have heard players saying that they can stack malice on ambient mobs, not change their mark, and still get the bonus damage against the first player that happens to run by.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it seems bugged to me. AFAIK it only works with Deaths Judgement. Pretty sure it isn't intended that a wall can be marked to build malice stacks with either. This reminds me of necros being able to use Epidemic off an oil pot in the past.

> > > Ah well *that* explains the times I've seen the mark go ping and then less than a second later get hit for 25-30K damage.

> > >

> >

> > No really. If the DE has built up malice against an ambient or a wall they'd lose it as soon as they mark you. In order to use this trick they have to not mark you. Marking you would reset their malice.

>

> That's just it, they are NOT changing their mark to the player. Build stacks on a wall/ambient mob, player runs up and takes the full damage as if they were marked (but they aren't). I watched a deadeye do this last night by Umber. They were using the deer nearby to get stacks and then getting the bonus damage vs. players without marking the players.

 

I get that; it looks like the base malice bonus is being correctly applied to just the marked target, but the extra malice bonus damage on DJ doesn't care if you're attacking your mark or not. I was just saying that the issue that Dawdler had was not the same as this. Clearly this is a bug that needs to be fixed (along with many other rifle bugs).

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

tbh rifle is clunky af. I have used this ability buffed with might and passives to bring my power over 3500 and with the set up (which as mentioned, takes a few seconds for sure) I can hit for 15k (no different than a backstab, which also you do from stealth). 1 reflect tho and im toast....1 hit KO on me. Play it a bit so you understand it better. Learn and adapt your build.

[Solori.6025]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> tbh rifle is clunky af. I have used this ability buffed with might and passives to bring my power over 3500 and with the set up (which as mentioned, takes a few seconds for sure) I can hit for 15k (no different than a backstab, which also you do from stealth). 1 reflect tho and im toast....1 hit KO on me. Play it a bit so you understand it better. Learn and adapt your build.

 

How are you only getting 15k?

 

With a half maradaurs set up I have been seeing 17k+ on crits for heavy classes 20k+ on medium and light,

and the full glass thief in my guild gets 25k+ DJ's ( his biggest hit on a full set up has been 42k, When I get home I'll ask if he still has screens of it, though he is also hitting Backstab for ridiculous numbers as well...but thats what ninja fishes do)

 

I can see why people don't like the skill, it's easier to set up than a lot of you realize, and like with any stealth class people have a hard time adapting.

But this skill is very easy to dodge, and unless the thief is skilled enough to pull off a Point blank DJ you should have ample enough time to see it and react

In a 1 v 1

 

This skill shines and becomes a problem in group roaming and zergs.

 

Where a theif can take Basi venom

set up

and with relative ease pick off targets in the zerg or group.

 

Thats where you end up having trouble, because of the amount of one shot skills currently in the game, a well timed CC can and usually does spell death for one person, and anyone trying to res them.

 

So in 1v1's dodge

 

in 4v4 +

....I honestly don't know what to tell you

 

P.S.

I also found that TRB is just as effective vs people who dont dodge or run out of dodges

[icecreamsupernova.8956]

> @Alehin.3746 said:

> > @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

>

> >Sure if you just stand there you are gonna get condi bombed in a few seconds.

>

> Just like you "stood there" and died. hahaha

 

lol nice try, if you actually read my posts I didnt die...

Since then I havent been hit once for that much so I either assume that it was a one off or that most DE are very bad, I think after playing some DE thief players were pretty much short changed in this expansion, it seems very awkward to play, and a few Ive seen have now resorted to camping walls of keeps haha. So I cant say its a problem for me much, but maybe for other classes getting one shot is a problem.

[Strages.2950]

This hit on a a heavy class with 2600+ toughness.


 

When it comes to the setup time, I wasn't even marked both times this person picked me off like this. They're building up malice some way and just nuking people at 1500 range WITHOUT marking. The chances of surviving that are almost nothing. I know thieves are supposed to gank you, but this is just absurd.

[SWI.4127]

I remember reading this thread last week and didn't think much of it. But tonight I got crit for 24k dmg in 1 shot and I wasn't even marked. Is this a bug that's starting to get abused?

 


 

[Alehin.3746]

> @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> > @Alehin.3746 said:

> > > @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> >

> > >Sure if you just stand there you are gonna get condi bombed in a few seconds.

> >

> > Just like you "stood there" and died. hahaha

>

> lol nice try, if you actually read my posts I didnt die...

> Since then I havent been hit once for that much so I either assume that it was a one off or that most DE are very bad, I think after playing some DE thief players were pretty much short changed in this expansion, it seems very awkward to play, and a few Ive seen have now resorted to camping walls of keeps haha.

 

I did read your post. I'm just making fun of people being hit by stuff that is very easy to avoid and instead of putting effort into learning how to not die like a potato, they come to the forums to complain about it.

 

>So I cant say its a problem for me much, but maybe for other classes getting one shot is a problem.

 

Weird, condi/boon spam is a bigger problem for everyone for so long and you still didnt start a thread talking about it. :thinking:

 

Also i'm pretty sure most people would rather have the condi/boon problem dealt with instead of the "one shot from far away every 20 seconds" "problem". But maybe thats just me. :sleeping:

[icecreamsupernova.8956]

> @Alehin.3746 said:

> > @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> > > @Alehin.3746 said:

> > > > @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> > >

> > > >Sure if you just stand there you are gonna get condi bombed in a few seconds.

> > >

> > > Just like you "stood there" and died. hahaha

> >

> > lol nice try, if you actually read my posts I didnt die...

> > Since then I havent been hit once for that much so I either assume that it was a one off or that most DE are very bad, I think after playing some DE thief players were pretty much short changed in this expansion, it seems very awkward to play, and a few Ive seen have now resorted to camping walls of keeps haha.

>

> I did read your post. I'm just making fun of people being hit by stuff that is very easy to avoid and instead of putting effort into learning how to not die like a potato, they come to the forums to complain about it.

>

> >So I cant say its a problem for me much, but maybe for other classes getting one shot is a problem.

>

> Weird, condi/boon spam is a bigger problem for everyone for so long and you still didnt start a thread talking about it. :thinking:

>

> Also i'm pretty sure most people would rather have the condi/boon problem dealt with instead of the "one shot from far away every 20 seconds" "problem". But maybe thats just me. :sleeping:

 

Theres plenty of other threads for that, I don't understand why why you go to another thread and make it about that too, they are not mutually exclusive, just two seperate problems that need adjusting. Clearly by the other people on here "complaining" I am not alone. If you find condi such a problem why don't you just dodge? If thats the logic being employed for anything that's over powered.

 

**Its also pretty funny to me the amount of attacks on me for starting this thread, simply because I play a condi necro, as if this is in anyway related to the issue. What about the other people on here saying they are hit for 20k + sometimes with no tell apparently. Why don't you just stick to the issue at hand rather than let your personal grievances with conditions/necro become the topic. As I am writing this there are atleast 5+ other posts about that issue. **

[Alehin.3746]

> @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

 

> Theres plenty of other threads for that, I don't understand why why you go to another thread and make it about that too, they are not mutually exclusive, just two seperate problems that need adjusting. Clearly by the other people on here "complaining" I am not alone. If you find condi such a problem why don't you just dodge? If thats the logic being employed for anything that's over powered.

>

> **Its also pretty funny to me the amount of attacks on me for starting this thread, simply because I play a condi necro, as if this is in anyway related to the issue. What about the other people on here saying they are hit for 20k + sometimes with no tell apparently. Why don't you just stick to the issue at hand rather than let your personal grievances with conditions/necro become the topic. As I am writing this there are atleast 5+ other posts about that issue. **

 

It's just funny watching people playing such an overpowered setup like trailblazer necro/mesmer complain about another "overpowered" spec. Personally i don't have problems fighting necros/condi, i rarely get "mad" for dying tbh.

 

I'd like to see anet try to "make it less opressive without ruinning it" tho. Maybe make DJ's damage overtime, 3~6 seconds and make the projectile easier to see. I just hope anet doenst ruin the spec because of people that don't even try to learn to play against it.

 

[Hackuuna.4085]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> I remember reading this thread last week and didn't think much of it. But tonight I got crit for 24k dmg in 1 shot and I wasn't even marked. Is this a bug that's starting to get abused?

>

> 

>

 

I was hit this week for 28k and 33k without ever being marked. In addition, the attack came from stealth while I was just walking from one area to the next without ever seeing anyone. What's obviously happening here is the deadeyes are marking ambient creatures and hiding until someone comes by. The only tell you will have that you are about to get 1-shot is if you spot the creature they have marked and know they are in the area.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> > @SWI.4127 said:

> > I remember reading this thread last week and didn't think much of it. But tonight I got crit for 24k dmg in 1 shot and I wasn't even marked. Is this a bug that's starting to get abused?

> >

> > 

> >

>

> I was hit this week for 28k and 33k without ever being marked. In addition, the attack came from stealth while I was just walking from one area to the next without ever seeing anyone. What's obviously happening here is the deadeyes are marking ambient creatures and hiding until someone comes by. The only tell you will have that you are about to get 1-shot is if you spot the creature they have marked and know they are in the area.

 

Death’s Judgement Damage doesn’t come from Stealth, this is where situational awareness comes into play, as soon as they press the hotkey they are Revealed, on top of the Visual and Audio tells that are there especially visible if graphics settings aren’t set to potato mode.

[Turk.5460]

And they can't get those high damage hits _and_ camp stealth. The subtlety traitline just does not offer the damage bonuses for those numbers, nor can you expect to indefinitely remain stealthed without subtlety _and_ have enough initiative left over to fire at an unsuspecting foe who for some reason did not see the giant orange circle over some ambient creature. The stars would have to align for a Deadeye to have someone walk into their little circle at the exact moment when they are still stealthed _and_ have enough initiative to fire DJ, _AND_ be firing at a potato who can't dodge the largest and most obvious tell in the game. All the while there is also a large chance that you will hear a voice-line such as "one shot, one kill" when the thief activates their kneel.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am super OK with any nerfs that might happen to this ability. It's stupid to base your entire build and playstyle around one single ability, anyway. I don't even care if they remove it entirely, I don't even use it in my Deadeye rifle builds. Just please stop acting like these super-high hits are present every single encounter and seemingly "out of nowhere."

[SWI.4127]

Can you even see the mark if it's on another player or an ambient creature? I thought it only appears if it's on you.

 

Anyway, let me ask you this. Does it make sense that marking a mosquito should give you any sort of combat advantage in this game? I'm not going to act like it happens all the time or whatever, but my point is the mark/malice thing _makes no sense whatsoever_.

[Hackuuna.4085]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> > > @SWI.4127 said:

> > > I remember reading this thread last week and didn't think much of it. But tonight I got crit for 24k dmg in 1 shot and I wasn't even marked. Is this a bug that's starting to get abused?

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > I was hit this week for 28k and 33k without ever being marked. In addition, the attack came from stealth while I was just walking from one area to the next without ever seeing anyone. What's obviously happening here is the deadeyes are marking ambient creatures and hiding until someone comes by. The only tell you will have that you are about to get 1-shot is if you spot the creature they have marked and know they are in the area.

>

> Death’s Judgement Damage doesn’t come from Stealth, this is where situational awareness comes into play, as soon as they press the hotkey they are Revealed, on top of the Visual and Audio tells that are there especially visible if graphics settings aren’t set to potato mode.

 

Sorry my wording was poor. What I meant is that I never saw the attack coming because I never saw an enemy (whether they were in stealth or behind cover and then stealth) until it was too late. I certainly did see who shot me but was too slow to react since I wasn't expecting anything. The deadeye was quite effective in using obstacles in the area to plan the shots.

 

> @Turk.5460 said:

> Just please stop acting like these super-high hits are present every single encounter and seemingly "out of nowhere."

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that. I was responding to the fact that these high damage hits are being charged up on ambients and it's possible to plan an ambush in such a way that the target has no advance warning other than than the shot itself. The same can be done on other classes too of course.

[Eme.2018]

Jesus dude, change your keybinds

[EremiteAngel.9765]

The problem with Deadeye is not Death's Judgment.

It is that they can stack stealth for 20 odd seconds and makes fighting them very tedious.

Basically the opponent needs to look out for the death beam tell for the entire duration of the Deadeye's stealth and dodge the moment the Deadeye decides to shoot his one-hit-KO skill.

This is made a lot harder in group fights where a Deadeye with proper target picking and timing can down opponents from stealth with one shot. You can't counter pressure him until he chooses to reveal himself, and in which time one of you would be down in a group fight. And then it isn't that easy catching up to him either.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

> The problem with Deadeye is not Death's Judgment.

> It is that they can stack stealth for 20 odd seconds and makes fighting them very tedious.

> Basically the opponent needs to look out for the death beam tell for the entire duration of the Deadeye's stealth and dodge the moment the Deadeye decides to shoot his one-hit-KO skill.

> This is made a lot harder in group fights where a Deadeye with proper target picking and timing can down opponents from stealth with one shot. You can't counter pressure him until he chooses to reveal himself, and in which time one of you would be down in a group fight. And then it isn't that easy catching up to him either.

 

Not a cry for a nerf but it's interesting:

 

Funny thing is you don't even need to dedicate any of your 3 utility skills to stealth. A deadeye running Shadow Arts, sniper's cover, Shadow Meld (elite), rifle and d/p can remain in stealth indefinitely. I timed my friend yesterday. He managed to remain in stealth for 1min and 20seconds unbroken and only stopped there because we were bored.

 

We tried this out after encountering a deadeye who absolutely would not attack or reveal from stealth unless he was 1200-1500 units away. He would mark a target, let malice build up, occasionally attack or use spotter's shot to slow targets down and once he was near full malice, he would burst with DJ or triple shot. Any time you ported to him or got near him, he would stealth. His heal and all 3 utility skills were dedicated to mobility.

[Swagger.1459]

> @icecreamsupernova.8956 said:

> I'm just going to leave this here, no bloodlust stacks the guy had just been downed and no vulnerability on me. I have 3.2k armor. Thats a 17k hit...

> https://ibb.co/h64dB5

 

Skills are gonna get a nerfing... This thread has a 24k DJ too. I have a few guildies, that play thief as well, posting stupid numbers in discord...

 

I’ll be pming the devs with some numbers that I’m compiling, so thanks for providing this btw.

 

Those defending this damage obviously don’t care about balance, and we certainly don’t need a lesson... This game, professions, combat mechanics... are all built and balanced for pve first... The stuff some are trying to defend is the “broken in wvw and spvp” designs (see condi as well). A nerf bat will be coming soon enough, and more changes will come when resources are pumped into cleaning up the mess.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @Arcaedus.7290 said:

> > @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

> > The problem with Deadeye is not Death's Judgment.

> > It is that they can stack stealth for 20 odd seconds and makes fighting them very tedious.

> > Basically the opponent needs to look out for the death beam tell for the entire duration of the Deadeye's stealth and dodge the moment the Deadeye decides to shoot his one-hit-KO skill.

> > This is made a lot harder in group fights where a Deadeye with proper target picking and timing can down opponents from stealth with one shot. You can't counter pressure him until he chooses to reveal himself, and in which time one of you would be down in a group fight. And then it isn't that easy catching up to him either.

>

> Not a cry for a nerf but it's interesting:

>

> Funny thing is you don't even need to dedicate any of your 3 utility skills to stealth. A deadeye running Shadow Arts, sniper's cover, Shadow Meld (elite), rifle and d/p can remain in stealth indefinitely. I timed my friend yesterday. He managed to remain in stealth for 1min and 20seconds unbroken and only stopped there because we were bored.

>

> We tried this out after encountering a deadeye who absolutely would not attack or reveal from stealth unless he was 1200-1500 units away. He would mark a target, let malice build up, occasionally attack or use spotter's shot to slow targets down and once he was near full malice, he would burst with DJ or triple shot. Any time you ported to him or got near him, he would stealth. His heal and all 3 utility skills were dedicated to mobility.

 

I'm unsure about the infinite stealth but yea 1 on 1, a deadeye is tiring to fight, but not impossible. With reflects, and such, Death's Judgment can be easily reflected back on the Deadeye killing him. It is really tiring though playing a waiting game for him to leave stealth. I did recommend on the thief forum though to make Death's Judgment unblockable so it can't be reflected. After all it has a huge set up cost.

 

In a group fight...good luck...one will definitely go down when he attacks from stealth if he times his death judgement well. Rather than nerf Death's judgement, I would buff it to be unblockable, but reduce the stealth access on a Deadeye. It is really unhealthy and tiring fighting one.

[xDudisx.5914]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> I remember reading this thread last week and didn't think much of it. But tonight I got crit for 24k dmg in 1 shot and I wasn't even marked. Is this a bug that's starting to get abused?

>

> 

>

 

Well, your picture also says you hit the enemy for 4.9k using rush. Let me guess, you are running almost full zerker/marauder warrior? You could probably almost one shot a deadeye running glass canon.